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Ma'ake
01-26-2016, 07:34 AM
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3459506-155/national-bar-group-looking-into-discrimination

Religious freedom vs individual rights, round 173.

No idea how far the law school accreditation investigation goes, but this FreeBYU group is bringing the attention in the court of public opinion.

The LGBT angle is one thing, but the disaffected LDS students facing disciplinary action is another. A guy I've known since childhood had a scholarship to BYU, and after his mission decided he didn't believe anymore, but went through the religious motions to get his degree.

My hunch is the legal aspect is a non-starter, but the PR aspect will fester.

EDIT - a sub plot will be how this issue is covered by the D-News.

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 12:09 PM
I just finished Michel Houellebecq's "Submission". I've read all of his other novels except his debut and have enjoyed all of them. This one is about the election of a Muslim Brotherhood candidate to the presidency of France; coincidentally the book was released on the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacres. The protagonist is a professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris), which, as a result of political deal-making, is given to the Muslims to turn into an Islamic university--it winds up looking very much like BYU, but more moderate (for one thing, they bend the rules on alcohol). The professors must convert and sign a kind of honor code agreement, or accept early retirement with full pension.

The prospect of polygamy with the wives inevitably selected from the now all-Muslim student body, and substantially increased pay, is what's interesting to our nihilistic protagonist. Of course Houellebecq's characters are not admirable; but in an ironic way they always make me examine what makes life and its tedium, aggravations, and inevitable horrors and ultimate oblivion worth living. There is also some excellent, highly entertaining satire. There's a lot of hilarious stuff about how religion really is winning and secularism and Western Civilization are "putrefied" and doomed. However, Houellebecq is quite indifferent to novel mechanics and artistry. So don't read him for that.

This book ought to interest Mormons because you see how similar Mormonism is to middle or upper middle class or Saudi-style Islam. The linked article from the New York Times made me think the same thing.http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH (http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH)

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.

Two Utes
01-26-2016, 12:17 PM
I just finished Michel Houellebecq's "Submission". I've read all of his other novels except his debut and have enjoyed all of them. This one is about the election of a Muslim Brotherhood candidate to the presidency of France; coincidentally the book was released on the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacres. The protagonist is a professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris), which, as a result of political deal-making, is given to the Muslims to turn into an Islamic university--it winds up looking very much like BYU, but more moderate (for one thing, they bend the rules on alcohol). The professors must convert and sign a kind of honor code agreement, or accept early retirement with full pension.

The prospect of polygamy with the wives inevitably selected from the now all-Muslim student body, and substantially increased pay, is what's interesting to our nihilistic protagonist. Of course Houellebecq's characters are not admirable; but in an ironic way they always make me examine what makes life and its tedium, aggravations, and inevitable horrors and ultimate oblivion worth living. There is also some excellent, highly entertaining satire. There's a lot of hilarious stuff about how religion really is winning and secularism and Western Civilization are "putrefied" and doomed. However, Houellebecq is quite indifferent to novel mechanics and artistry. So don't read him for that.

This book ought to interest Mormons because you see how similar Mormonism is to middle or upper middle class or Saudi-style Islam. The linked article from the New York Times made me think the same thing.http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH (http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH)

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.

The article is fascinating.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 12:21 PM
The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.
What a great idea.

Two Utes
01-26-2016, 12:23 PM
What a great idea.

Saudi Islam is just Mormonism on steroids.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 12:35 PM
Saudi Islam is just Mormonism on steroids.

Yeah, well, minus the 13 Articles of Faith and a few other basic tenets. Then there's the facial hair thing. Maybe we could work out a compromise -- mustaches are OK? Would they agree to reduce burkas to maybe elbow-length and ankle-length -- with a little face showing as well? Bacon would also be a big issue.

Two Utes
01-26-2016, 12:49 PM
Yeah, well, minus the 13 Articles of Faith and a few other basic tenets. Then there's the facial hair thing. Maybe we could work out a compromise -- mustaches are OK? Would they agree to reduce burkas to maybe elbow-length and ankle-length -- with a little face showing as well? Bacon would also be a big issue.


You guys would have to work out the modesty issue. Shoulders and knees are naughty on your world, while shoulders, knees hair and neck are naughty in theirs. You might be able to reach a compromise.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 01:02 PM
You guys would have to work out the modesty issue. Shoulders and knees are naughty on your world, while shoulders, knees hair and neck are naughty in theirs. You might be able to reach a compromise.

Then there's murdering daughters when they are raped, in order to preserve the family honor. Would you and SU represent the church in working out a compromise on that one?

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 01:04 PM
Leaving the terrorists and radicals aside, Mormonism is the New World's Islam, and each has a like love-hate relationship with Euro/American secularism. I say love-hate because Mormonism and Islam alike is inextricably tied to and reliant upon modern secularism in a way that neither recognizes. So many Mormons are even now poor, brown, disdained immigrants (like Muslims in Europe). Mormonism and Islam each was started and took root at the fringes of and in the sticks outside of great and powerful secular cultures. The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork. Granted, the D&C is more like the Koran than the Book of Mormon is.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 01:12 PM
The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork.

This just makes more clear our need for you and Two Utes to work out some compromises. Maybe in the unified faith we can throw gays to their deaths from lower floors of buildings and perhaps not hang them? Regarding women, see my earlier post about the amount of skin that can be shown. Theologically we have to do something about the difference between the Godhead and Allah, not to mention the whole Messiah thing. Also, how does Islam feel about Coca-Cola? I'm not up to speed on that one.

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 01:35 PM
This just makes more clear our need for you and Two Utes to work out some compromises. Maybe in the unified faith we can throw gays to their deaths from lower floors of buildings and perhaps not hang them? Regarding women, see my earlier post about the amount of skin that can be shown. Theologically we have to do something about the difference between the Godhead and Allah, not to mention the whole Messiah thing. Also, how does Islam feel about Coca-Cola? I'm not up to speed on that one.

LA, your post paints all Muslims with a single broad brush and I don't approve of it. Islam is very diverse. We're not talking about those Muslims, but the ones who are more just like Mormons, which, frankly, is the largest share of Muslims.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 01:47 PM
LA, your post paints all Muslims with a single broad brush and I don't approve of it. Islam is very diverse. We're not talking about those Muslims, but the ones who are more just like Mormons, which, frankly, is the largest share of Muslims.

Well, now that it's clear which segment of Islam you're saying is like Mormonism, we can have a real conversation. (Forgive me for assuming you were making an invidious comparison. You have to admit you have a track record in that regard.) Also, for the record, I know you were kidding about the merger. I was kidding back atcha.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 02:07 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3459506-155/national-bar-group-looking-into-discrimination

Religious freedom vs individual rights, round 173.

No idea how far the law school accreditation investigation goes, but this FreeBYU group is bringing the attention in the court of public opinion.

The LGBT angle is one thing, but the disaffected LDS students facing disciplinary action is another. A guy I've known since childhood had a scholarship to BYU, and after his mission decided he didn't believe anymore, but went through the religious motions to get his degree.

My hunch is the legal aspect is a non-starter, but the PR aspect will fester.

EDIT - a sub plot will be how this issue is covered by the D-News.

Seems to me the reasonable thing is to allow such students to stay as long as they abide by the dreaded Honor Code. I guess they would have to pay non-member tuition too, if they formally resign from the church.

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 02:23 PM
Well, now that it's clear which segment of Islam you're saying is like Mormonism, we can have a real conversation. (Forgive me for assuming you were making an invidious comparison. You have to admit you have a track record in that regard.) Also, for the record, I know you were kidding about the merger. I was kidding back atcha.

It's Mormonism's lot to have been born in the United States. I'm sure it would establish a theocracy if it could, and then it would be much more oppressive, dangerous, and relevant.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 02:34 PM
It's Mormonism's lot to have been born in the United States. I'm sure it would establish a theocracy if it could, and then it would be much more oppressive, dangerous, and relevant.

I think you are getting somewhere now. We could replace "LDS" with the acronym ROD. (Relevant, Oppressive, Dangerous). Would you call us M-RODs? That's much better than just "mo's." Maybe "NIMROD" would work. "New Improved Mormonism: Relevant, Oppressive, Dangerous."

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 02:40 PM
Fools mock...


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mormonism%20the%20american%20islam

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 02:46 PM
Fools mock...


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mormonism%20the%20american%20islam

Have you,um, glanced at the first 5-6 articles that come up at that link?

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 02:54 PM
Have you,um, glanced at the first 5-6 articles that come up at that link?

No. why?

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 04:12 PM
No. why?

They're from anti-Mormon sources, or from critics of Mormonism. Maybe the notion that the two faiths are similar is more fodder for critics than a mainstream view. Just something for you to consider. (Not that you would ever apply that notion in such a way.)

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 04:26 PM
They're from anti-Mormon sources, or from critics of Mormonism. Maybe the notion that the two faiths are similar is more fodder for critics than a mainstream view. Just something for you to consider. (Not that you would ever apply that notion in such a way.)

Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 04:54 PM
Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

Well, both faiths have their roots in the Abrahamic covenant and take that covenant very seriously, more so than any other faith but Judaism, so there is that similarity. The rest of what you say here is very entertaining.

As for Wikipedia, here's the first line of the entry linked:

"Mormonism and Islam have been compared to one another ever since the earliest origins of the former in the nineteenth century, often by detractors of one religion or the other—or both...."

You should be glad that you are not alone in this.

Rocker Ute
01-26-2016, 04:58 PM
Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

SeattleUte
01-26-2016, 05:22 PM
So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

The comparisons I've made are neutral. I don't know why LA presumes the comparison is intended to belittle Mormonism. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why. It smacks of bigotry against Islam or a lack of self-awareness.

With respect to your proposal, I'm sure that no difference is a deal breaker. Indeed, is there any doubt that polygamy would still be in Mormonism but for compulsion of law in America? Why not get all the fasting done during Ramadan and do away with fast Sundays? Fast Sundays are policy, not doctrine, right?

NorthwestUteFan
01-26-2016, 05:48 PM
Throw in a Reform Judaism version for the more liberal Mormons, and we would have a deal. Conservatives/fundamentalist Mormons merge with Islam, liberal or more nuanced Mormons merge with Reformers, And everybody is happy.

That way we could all enjoy bacon cheeseburgers and mild barley drinks from craft brewers and pure wine of the grape from local vintners. All that with none of the confusing magic mumbo jumbo.

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 05:49 PM
So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

Now you're talking!

LA Ute
01-26-2016, 06:28 PM
Who doesn't like it? Everyone here seems to be in favor. And I want to eat more lamb.

And I want to rock a beard without getting disapproving looks!

Rocker Ute
01-27-2016, 12:02 AM
The comparisons I've made are neutral. I don't know why LA presumes the comparison is intended to belittle Mormonism. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why. It smacks of bigotry against Islam or a lack of self-awareness.

With respect to your proposal, I'm sure that no difference is a deal breaker. Indeed, is there any doubt that polygamy would still be in Mormonism but for compulsion of law in America? Why not get all the fasting done during Ramadan and do away with fast Sundays? Fast Sundays are policy, not doctrine, right?

If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sullyute
01-27-2016, 03:24 AM
If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:applause:

SeattleUte
01-27-2016, 11:45 AM
If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re home teaching, do some horse trading with the call to prayer four times a day.

I think what the LDS Church brings to the table is its Western market and goodwill such as it is. It could add a positive touch to the Islamic brand.

No crosses or graven images in LDS buildings is a plus. Minarets should be snap to add.

mUUser
04-12-2016, 10:31 AM
A couple of these articles have come across my wife's Facebook the last couple of days. Here's a sampling.....

http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/
http://kutv.com/news/local/byu-student-says-honor-code-creates-fear-shame-in-victims-of-rape

I hope there is more here than being reported.

If true, why does the church/BYU insist on digging in and doubling down on this stuff.....ridiculous enforcement of HC with rape victims, baptism of children from gay households, expulsion from BYU for leaving LDS Church. These are just, in my view, 3 of the most recent head scratchers......

Applejack
04-12-2016, 12:50 PM
A couple of these articles have come across my wife's Facebook the last couple of days. Here's a sampling.....

http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/
http://kutv.com/news/local/byu-student-says-honor-code-creates-fear-shame-in-victims-of-rape

I hope there is more here than being reported.

If true, why does the church/BYU insist on digging in and doubling down on this stuff.....ridiculous enforcement of HC with rape victims, baptism of children from gay households, expulsion from BYU for leaving LDS Church. These are just, in my view, 3 of the most recent head scratchers......

Answer: BYU is crazy!

U-Ute
04-13-2016, 09:09 AM
A couple of these articles have come across my wife's Facebook the last couple of days. Here's a sampling.....

http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu-rape-culture-associate-dean-of-students-does-not-apologize-for-honor-code-that-treats-victims-as-suspects/
http://kutv.com/news/local/byu-student-says-honor-code-creates-fear-shame-in-victims-of-rape

I hope there is more here than being reported.

If true, why does the church/BYU insist on digging in and doubling down on this stuff.....ridiculous enforcement of HC with rape victims, baptism of children from gay households, expulsion from BYU for leaving LDS Church. These are just, in my view, 3 of the most recent head scratchers......


The truly scary part is that now predators are now aware that BYU students are much less likely to report incidents now.

LA Ute
04-13-2016, 10:43 AM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

Scratch
04-13-2016, 10:45 AM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. Too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus


The problem here is that the honor code is much more likely to have a "kangaroo court" than the alleged rapist would potentially face in a criminal court with all of the due process protections that come with that.

Jarid in Cedar
04-13-2016, 10:55 AM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
:doh:

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LA Ute
04-13-2016, 11:32 AM
The problem here is that the honor code is much more likely to have a "kangaroo court" than the alleged rapist would potentially face in a criminal court with all of the due process protections that come with that.

Good point.


:doh:

No point.

Rocker Ute
04-13-2016, 12:33 PM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

The best policy is to take all allegations of rape seriously and to remove any barrier from someone reporting if they've been sexually assaulted. The obvious one is that there will be no repercussions, even with the honor code, for reporting a legitimate assault. Kind of like those 'no questions asked' policies that hospitals have if you want to drop off an unwanted baby.

A big part of this is really to sit back and ask what is the honor code really for? If the honor code is stepping over protecting students then it really has lost sight of its goal.

And having a policy like that would also not prohibit justice from happening, and for false accusations of date-rape to see the light of day either. I really just don't see how the honor code equalizes or provides a fair environment.

Diehard Ute
04-13-2016, 01:16 PM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

Sexual assault cases are some of the worst cases to work. They're often difficult to prove and are extremely traumatic.

Unfortunately the politics of these cases makes them even harder to investigate. In decades past law enforcement was not receptive as they should have been. That's still a work in progress.

Now in 2016 we have victim advocates who, with the best intentions, are overly zealous in saying false reports are not common.

The actuality is there are false reports. And there are far more factual unreported cases.

The average perpetrator is not a one time offender, but usually commits several sexual assaults. Often they're never caught.

In order to ensure we do catch and prosecute offenders we need to be certain victims can make a report. By opening honor code investigations for things like curfew or dress code violations that's not possible.

BYU should stay out of sexual assault cases all together. Let law enforcement do their job. If the accusation is false that too can be dealt with by law enforcement.

The honor code at BYU continues to be an antiquated system that is selectively enforced. What's the purpose? And why defend it?


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LA Ute
04-13-2016, 01:50 PM
Sexual assault cases are some of the worst cases to work. They're often difficult to prove and are extremely traumatic.

Unfortunately the politics of these cases makes them even harder to investigate. In decades past law enforcement was not receptive as they should have been. That's still a work in progress.

Now in 2016 we have victim advocates who, with the best intentions, are overly zealous in saying false reports are not common.

The actuality is there are false reports. And there are far more factual unreported cases.

The average perpetrator is not a one time offender, but usually commits several sexual assaults. Often they're never caught.

In order to ensure we do catch and prosecute offenders we need to be certain victims can make a report. By opening honor code investigations for things like curfew or dress code violations that's not possible.

BYU should stay out of sexual assault cases all together. Let law enforcement do their job. If the accusation is false that too can be dealt with by law enforcement.

The honor code at BYU continues to be an antiquated system that is selectively enforced. What's the purpose? And why defend it?

Sexual assault is a crime so I think reports ought to go straight to law enforcement. I don't know why the Honor Code Office is even involved. They don't have the tools to conduct a credible investigation. No university does (except for its police dept.).

Diehard Ute
04-13-2016, 02:01 PM
Sexual assault is a crime so I think reports ought to go straight to law enforcement. I don't know why the Honor Code Office is even involved. They don't have the tools to conduct a credible investigation. No university does (except for its police dept.).

It's a very good question.

Obviously someone is telling the Honor Code office. The articles indicate it's BYU's Title IX folks.

But with the ability of anyone to anonymously "turn in" someone for an honor code violation it's a rather scary proposition.

BYU should likely take the higher road and not investigate the "secondary" issues surrounding alleged sexual assaults. They've certainly looked the other way more than once for others.


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mpfunk
04-13-2016, 02:22 PM
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

The way BYU is handling this circumstances is indefensible. You shouldn't be stepping out of character on this one. BYU deserves ever bit of criticism that they get on this one.

Jarid in Cedar
04-13-2016, 02:33 PM
Sexual assault is a crime so I think reports ought to go straight to law enforcement. I don't know why the Honor Code Office is even involved. They don't have the tools to conduct a credible investigation. No university does (except for its police dept.).
Way off point.

The honor code office is not investigating the merits of the sexual assault. They investigating whether there were any honor code violations surrounding the alleged sexual crime. And then doling out their consequences if they find any issues.

So if they discover that you were taken by knife point while walking across campus and raped in the bushes, you are probably ok.

If it is find out that you were drinking/in your dates room after midnight/wearing clothing that violates the hc the night you were raped,...well you are going to be punished by the honor code office...even if the criminal investigation determined that you were indeed raped. Sorry that you were traumatized for life, but you knowingly violated the honor code so we are going to suspend you from school.
Do you think that won't have a chilling effect on students reporting actual sexual assault?

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Dwight Schr-Ute
04-13-2016, 03:13 PM
Sexual assault is a crime so I think reports ought to go straight to law enforcement. I don't know why the Honor Code Office is even involved. They don't have the tools to conduct a credible investigation. No university does (except for its police dept.).

This story isn't directly related to the Honor Code office enforcement, but I believe that much of the mentality is the same and finds a nice life within LDS church culture. I have a friend who, despite being raised in the church, lived a very party girl lifestyle during her 20s. One night, while hanging out in a club, someone managed to sneak some roofie into her drink. So much so that she didn't make it out of the club under her own power. So much that she went into cardiac arrest somewhere between the bar and the bathroom. Emergency services managed to save her life but it took her years to recover enough to live a normal life.

About five years after this event, she became cautiously interested in participating in church activities again. She started attending church services and even met with the bishop a few times to discuss the options of full fellowship. In a move inspired by what I'm sure were the best intentions, the bishop came up with the idea to have my friend present her story in front of the youth. Poor phrasing at best, but more likely a contaminated "in the world not of the world" lens, the bishop asked her to focus on what choices regarding the Word of Wisdom that she regretted most and how she now finds safety in living the WOW. Something to that effect.

There it was. Victim shaming. She was incredibly upset about the conversation and despite my best efforts, the conversation ended her relationship with that bishop and any interest she had in church participation.

When someone is a victim of sexual assault, the victim shouldn't have to ask themselves, what sort of educational jeopardy does reporting this crime put me in.

LA Ute
04-13-2016, 04:02 PM
Way off point.

The honor code office is not investigating the merits of the sexual assault. They investigating whether there were any honor code violations surrounding the alleged sexual crime. And then doling out their consequences if they find any issues.

So if they discover that you were taken by knife point while walking across campus and raped in the bushes, you are probably ok.

If it is find out that you were drinking/in your dates room after midnight/wearing clothing that violates the hc the night you were raped,...well you are going to be punished by the honor code office...even if the criminal investigation determined that you were indeed raped. Sorry that you were traumatized for life, but you knowingly violated the honor code so we are going to suspend you from school.

Do you think that won't have a chilling effect on students reporting actual sexual assault?

I think it will have a chilling effect. Kinda surprised you assume I think otherwise. My first post here was simply me speculating about what BYU might be thinking.

mpfunk
04-13-2016, 07:10 PM
JIC and Dwight nail why this is a huge problem. It needs to be changed. The public backlash byu and the church gets for this is deserved.

It's despicable.

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Utah
04-13-2016, 10:52 PM
Over 90% of raped go unreported in Provo.

Jarid in Cedar
04-13-2016, 11:07 PM
85% of all statistics have at least a 40% of being fabricated out of mid air

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NorthwestUteFan
04-13-2016, 11:43 PM
A bigger problem is the fact that this stems from the broader church culture in Utah. How many of us grew up with a copy of Spencer W. Kimball's 'The Miracle of Forgiveness' on our shelves, or learned from it in church or seminary?

That book makes the claim that it is better for a woman to fight to the death, rather than 'lose her virtue' by being raped. This is the concept that leads women to believe that getting a 'P' in the 'V' is shameful and renders a woman 'less worthy', especially if said activity was not within the bonds of marriage AND explicitly for the act of procreation.

This is the reason why young women get to hear the awful, body-shaming lessons comparing a woman who had intercourse (particularly pre-marital) to a board with a nail hole in it, or a piece of chewed gum, or a licked cupcake, with the punchline that no worthy man would ever want her afterward. The chewed piece of gum analogy was specifically mentioned by Elizabeth Smart as the reason she never attempted to run away or to call for help, despite being in public many times during the time she was abducted.

Byu has a problem here and they deserve every ounce of bad press they get. But the truth is the church culture is one in which a tremendous and controlling amount of guilt and shame is pushed onto people regarding sex and sexuality. The honor code is merely a natural outgrowth of this culture.

Diehard Ute
04-14-2016, 12:07 AM
Over 90% of raped go unreported in Provo.

That's a number that is thrown around a lot, but it's a very debatable number.

The 90% is thrown out all the time, regardless of where. Has been for years.


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UtahsMrSports
04-14-2016, 07:27 AM
I read the release that BYU put out and even on that they significantly missed the mark, even failing to address the concerns, at least as I understand them.....

"The victim of a sexual assault will never be referred to the Honor Code Office FOR BEING A VICTIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT."

Now someone correct me if im wrong, but this isnt even part of the complaints. Not one person said "I got raped and got in trouble for having sex!" Rather, it seems the honor code office, according to those complaining, is going after victims for other infractions which potentially led to the assault.

I dont know, maybe i dont make sense or im wrong, but it just really felt like a blind, ignorant response to a very serious issue.

Applejack
04-14-2016, 07:28 AM
Lots of words in this thread for a pretty simple premise: BYU is crazy.

LA Ute
04-14-2016, 08:56 AM
I had never heard any of these analogies before joining this site. When they were brought up here, I asked a bunch of churchy people about them. The only person who had heard of them was my ordain women friend, who heard of them via anti-LDS websites. They might have been a real thing once, but they were never widespread. At this point, they are being kept alive in our memories only by people criticizing them on the internet.

You're not as well-informed as people who are alienated from the church but still manage to know perfectly well what goes on in youth classes and exactly how it is done now, even if their information is anecdotal and decades old.

Jarid in Cedar
04-14-2016, 09:28 AM
You're not as well-informed as people who are alienated from the church but still manage to know perfectly well what goes on in youth classes and exactly how it is done now, even if their information is anecdotal and decades old.

My wife is as orthodox and TBM as they come. She grew up in Utah County, and she told me about the chewed gum and licked cupcake lessons while we were dating(meaning well before my ascension to apostateville). So take that and stick it in your condescending pie hole.

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Jarid in Cedar
04-14-2016, 09:56 AM
You can't use this acronym and then accuse someone else of being condescending in the same post!

Maybe it was a lesson that made the Utah county rounds back in the day. Maybe it's still making the Utah county rounds. Like AJ said, that's a crazy place. I suspect that the vast majority of people who reference these lessons heard about them in places other than actual Sunday school classes.
My wife uses it to describe herself regularly. Personally, I don't consider people describing themselves as "true blue Mormon" as an insult. Or is it used to mean something different?

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chrisrenrut
04-14-2016, 09:56 AM
My wife is as orthodox and TBM as they come. She grew up in Utah County, and she told me about the chewed gum and licked cupcake lessons while we were dating(meaning well before my ascension to apostateville). So take that and stick it in your condescending pie hole.

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How is that not anecdotal and decades old? (assuming your wife is at least in her mid-30's)

U-Ute
04-14-2016, 10:05 AM
My wife uses it to describe herself regularly. Personally, I don't consider people describing themselves as "true blue Mormon" as an insult. Or is it used to mean something different?

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Maybe he thought it True Bronco Mendenhall

Jarid in Cedar
04-14-2016, 10:17 AM
I was told that it stands for true believing mormon, and I have mainly seen it used as a negative stereotype. I'm not crazy about stereotypes unless they involve BYU fans or Utah county.

You were not using it in that sense, so I was wrong to say what I did. I apologize.
No worries. Words matter and they get co-opted for different usage. I hadn't heard of the other meaning, which, I agree, would have a negative stereotype.

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LA Ute
04-14-2016, 10:49 AM
My wife is as orthodox and TBM as they come. She grew up in Utah County, and she told me about the chewed gum and licked cupcake lessons while we were dating(meaning well before my ascension to apostateville). So take that and stick it in your condescending pie hole.

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No need to get personal. Please put down your gun. Let's play anecdotal experience vs. anecdotal experience. I was a counselor in our ward's bishopric for 10 years -- an unusually long time, I know. I was released last year. I went to New Beginnings every year and had my own daughter in the program until one year ago. I attended YW camp every year. I attended YW class on Sundays almost every week. I never once heard any of those analogies. My daughter has never heard one. If I had heard about anything like that I'd have gone straight to our bishop or stake leaders and reported it. I doubt you will see it in any current lesson manuals or hear it in any General Conference talk. If I am wrong, show me.

I do recall hearing the chewed gum analogy once when I was 16 or 17. I don't doubt that some leaders, probably in the least diverse, most conservative parts of the church, continue to make that mistake. All I am saying is that I think the incidence of that stuff is much reduced and that things change and they do get better -- in my experience. The church wants to change and get better. So do local leaders. They love the youth and want to help them. That has been my very recent experience. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. I am sorry that so many people report negative experiences with efforts to teach chastity. That is an indictment of the (probably well-meaning) people who made those negative experiences happen. It is not an indictment of the entire church, and certainly not the modern church or its highest leaders.

Applejack
04-14-2016, 10:53 AM
No need to get personal. Please put down your gun. Let's play anecdotal experience vs. anecdotal experience. I was a counselor in our ward's bishopric for 10 years -- an unusually long time, I know. I was released last year. I went to New Beginnings every year and had my own daughter in the program until one year ago. I attended YW camp every year. I attended YW class on Sundays almost every week. I never once heard any of those analogies. My daughter has never heard one. If I had heard about anything like that I'd have gone straight to our bishop or stake leaders and reported it. I doubt you will see it in any current lesson manuals or hear it in any General Conference talk. If I am wrong, show me.

I do recall hearing the chewed gum analogy once when I was 16 or 17. I don't doubt that some leaders, probably in the least diverse, most conservative parts of the church, continue to make that mistake. All I am saying is that I think the incidence of that stuff is much reduced and that things change and they do get better -- in my experience. The church wants to change and get better. So do local leaders. They love the youth and want to help them. That has been my very recent experience. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. I am sorry that so many people report negative experiences with efforts to teach chastity. That is an indictment of the (probably well-meaning) people who made those negative experiences happen. It is not an indictment of the entire church.

I think everyone is on the same page: BYU is crazy.

DrumNFeather
04-14-2016, 10:58 AM
I think everyone is on the same page: BYU is crazy.

Where have I seen this post before? :highfive:

Rocker Ute
04-14-2016, 11:59 AM
No need to get personal. Please put down your gun. Let's play anecdotal experience vs. anecdotal experience. I was a counselor in our ward's bishopric for 10 years -- an unusually long time, I know. I was released last year. I went to New Beginnings every year and had my own daughter in the program until one year ago. I attended YW camp every year. I attended YW class on Sundays almost every week. I never once heard any of those analogies. My daughter has never heard one. If I had heard about anything like that I'd have gone straight to our bishop or stake leaders and reported it. I doubt you will see it in any current lesson manuals or hear it in any General Conference talk. If I am wrong, show me.

I do recall hearing the chewed gum analogy once when I was 16 or 17. I don't doubt that some leaders, probably in the least diverse, most conservative parts of the church, continue to make that mistake. All I am saying is that I think the incidence of that stuff is much reduced and that things change and they do get better -- in my experience. The church wants to change and get better. So do local leaders. They love the youth and want to help them. That has been my very recent experience. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. I am sorry that so many people report negative experiences with efforts to teach chastity. That is an indictment of the (probably well-meaning) people who made those negative experiences happen. It is not an indictment of the entire church, and certainly not the modern church or its highest leaders.

FWIW, recently I was asked to talk to our stake about internet safety / pornography, etc. Having heard of these analogies for the first time through the interwebs by NWUF actually, I decided to bring it up. Within a large group of YM and YW I asked if anyone had ever heard the analogy of the licked cupcake or chewed gum, or the nailed board. No one in that group had heard it. So I mentioned that somebody told me that LDS people may have been teaching lessons around sexual activity that used those analogies. I then told the group that if in their life they ever heard those analogies that she should stand up and say that they are utter BS and fly in direct opposition of what we believe about the Atonement of Christ. Specifically that the miracle of it all was that He could make even the most broken of souls whole.

So, another anecdote too, but at least there is a large group of kids in my stake who know better (presuming they were listening).

For the record, Elizabeth Smart didn't run because she was tethered to a log and threatened that if she escaped her family would be killed. If you listen to the entire interview she mentions that she could understand why women who have been abducted and sexually assaulted don't run because of those types of analogies. She never said she didn't run because of that. In fact she talks about what delivered her through that hell is that she knew her family would love her no matter what.

Strangely enough, people seem to live in the weeds when the real story of Christ (if you are a believer) is just that... souls with infinite value, worth dying for, that can be made whole. Nothing else really matters.

Back to the subject at hand, BYU absolutely needs to revise that policy. As I mentioned before, if that is their practice, they've lost sight of the supposed purpose of the Honor Code.

Two Utes
04-14-2016, 12:13 PM
FWIW, recently I was asked to talk to our stake about internet safety / pornography, etc. Having heard of these analogies for the first time through the interwebs by NWUF actually, I decided to bring it up. Within a large group of YM and YW I asked if anyone had ever heard the analogy of the licked cupcake or chewed gum, or the nailed board. No one in that group had heard it. So I mentioned that somebody told me that LDS people may have been teaching lessons around sexual activity that used those analogies. I then told the group that if in their life they ever heard those analogies that she should stand up and say that they are utter BS and fly in direct opposition of what we believe about the Atonement of Christ. Specifically that the miracle of it all was that He could make even the most broken of souls whole.

So, another anecdote too, but at least there is a large group of kids in my stake who know better (presuming they were listening).

For the record, Elizabeth Smart didn't run because she was tethered to a log and threatened that if she escaped her family would be killed. If you listen to the entire interview she mentions that she could understand why women who have been abducted and sexually assaulted don't run because of those types of analogies. She never said she didn't run because of that. In fact she talks about what delivered her through that hell is that she knew her family would love her no matter what.

Strangely enough, people seem to live in the weeds when the real story of Christ (if you are a believer) is just that... souls with infinite value, worth dying for, that can be made whole. Nothing else really matters.

Back to the subject at hand, BYU absolutely needs to revise that policy. As I mentioned before, if that is their practice, they've lost sight of the supposed purpose of the Honor Code.

Good post.

mUUser
04-14-2016, 12:59 PM
I had never heard any of these analogies before joining this site. When they were brought up here, I asked a bunch of churchy people about them. The only person who had heard of them was my ordain women friend, who heard of them via anti-LDS websites. They might have been a real thing once, but they were never widespread. At this point, they are being kept alive in our memories only by people criticizing them on the internet.


I'm in my 50's and my wife had been taught both analogies. SL County. She chuckled when I just asked her about it, because its so off the charts.

However, I can imagine some YW Presidents still teach sexual purity this way. It was just a mere 5 years ago that our YW President pulled a sweater out of a closet on at least 2 occasions for a girl to wear. Once was over a prom dress the girl wore the next day. Since prom dresses are long, she didn't show any leg, but it was cut to show a little bit of cleavage (and I do mean little bit -- really not much, if any, more than you'd see on a shirt that takes full advantage of the garment line). She was humiliated but was from a strong family. She ended up marrying in the temple recently. The other girl, however, wore a tank (not the spaghetti type) to mutual and was asked in front of everyone to wear a sweater. She felt humiliated. She never returned to church as she was wobbly in the gospel as it was. I know this because her mother is a work out partner with my wife.

Having said that, I think there's far more good people than nut jobs, but the weirdos do an inordinate amount of damage.

LA Ute
04-14-2016, 01:02 PM
FWIW, recently I was asked to talk to our stake about internet safety / pornography, etc. Having heard of these analogies for the first time through the interwebs by NWUF actually, I decided to bring it up. Within a large group of YM and YW I asked if anyone had ever heard the analogy of the licked cupcake or chewed gum, or the nailed board. No one in that group had heard it. So I mentioned that somebody told me that LDS people may have been teaching lessons around sexual activity that used those analogies. I then told the group that if in their life they ever heard those analogies that she should stand up and say that they are utter BS and fly in direct opposition of what we believe about the Atonement of Christ. Specifically that the miracle of it all was that He could make even the most broken of souls whole.

So, another anecdote too, but at least there is a large group of kids in my stake who know better (presuming they were listening).

For the record, Elizabeth Smart didn't run because she was tethered to a log and threatened that if she escaped her family would be killed. If you listen to the entire interview she mentions that she could understand why women who have been abducted and sexually assaulted don't run because of those types of analogies. She never said she didn't run because of that. In fact she talks about what delivered her through that hell is that she knew her family would love her no matter what.

Strangely enough, people seem to live in the weeds when the real story of Christ (if you are a believer) is just that... souls with infinite value, worth dying for, that can be made whole. Nothing else really matters.

Back to the subject at hand, BYU absolutely needs to revise that policy. As I mentioned before, if that is their practice, they've lost sight of the supposed purpose of the Honor Code.


:clap:

U-Ute
04-14-2016, 01:10 PM
Can we go back to talking about how lame BYU is now?

LA Ute
04-14-2016, 01:26 PM
Can we go back to talking about how lame BYU is now?

Yes. The bureaucrats there have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

Rocker Ute
04-14-2016, 01:58 PM
Can we go back to talking about how lame BYU is now?


Soooooooooo lame.

Applejack
04-14-2016, 02:45 PM
Soooooooooo lame.

Agreed. And crazy, did I mention crazy yet?

U-Ute
04-14-2016, 03:49 PM
Agreed. And crazy, did I mention crazy yet?


I think it came up once.

mpfunk
04-14-2016, 06:35 PM
I had never heard any of these analogies before joining this site. When they were brought up here, I asked a bunch of churchy people about them. The only person who had heard of them was my ordain women friend, who heard of them via anti-LDS websites. They might have been a real thing once, but they were never widespread. At this point, they are being kept alive in our memories only by people criticizing them on the internet.
I've said it before, I'd probably would be a member if I lived in your ward. Your church sounds great.

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mpfunk
04-14-2016, 06:38 PM
My wife is as orthodox and TBM as they come. She grew up in Utah County, and she told me about the chewed gum and licked cupcake lessons while we were dating(meaning well before my ascension to apostateville). So take that and stick it in your condescending pie hole.

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My wife told me stories about licked cupcakes and chewed up gum as well when we were active members. These occurred in Eastern Washington and were taught 10 to 12 years ago.

Also her friend, active at the time and attending byu law, told us her story about her leader holding up a head of lettuce and saying it is a boys brain. She pulled off a leaf, held up the rest and said this is the part of the brain devoted to thinking about sex. The leaf was what boys thought about everything else. She grew up in Oregon.

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mpfunk
04-14-2016, 06:47 PM
Straight from the Young Women's manual still on LDS.org


At the party, several people offered her drinks. She refused the first few times, but she finally had one drink. This one drink multiplied to into several. As the evening progressed, Alice lost her ability to control both her mind and body. This loss was indeed heartbreaking because she later had to live with the reality that she had also lost her chastity.

https://www.lds.org/manual/young-women-manual-2/living-a-virtuous-life/lesson-37-maintaining-chastity-through-righteous-living?lang=eng

This woman didn't lose her chastity, she was raped. If she lost the ability to control her mind and body, and someone took advantage of that and had sex with her, she was raped. She couldn't consent. That is promoting rape culture. Candidly, the actions of the BYU Honor Code office, while despicable, are directly in line with this rape culture line of thinking straight from a manual.

Some one brought up Elizabeth Smart. That wasn't in Utah county and it wasn't decades old. She is also an active and faithful member of the LDS church.

mpfunk
04-14-2016, 08:16 PM
How did you find that thing? I tried to get there through lds.org, and I couldn't find it. Is there a link to old, archived manuals?
I did a search for the awful camel story that was in the manuals.

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Ma'ake
04-14-2016, 08:55 PM
I can't believe you guys aren't covering the epic instruction from Mark E. Petersen about how to keep yourself chaste, when you're in your bedroom, on your own, and the inappropriate thoughts are relentless.

You remember, the tie your right hand to your bed post trick, so you're physically restrained from touching yourself in appropriate ways. After I bailed out, and the Internet made all of these cultural masterpieces available to everyone, I had stomach muscle cramps for 3 days after crying my eyes out in hysteria of giggles over that one. Why somebody didn't send that to Monty Python to be worked into one of their skits is a mystery, or a miracle, depending on perspective.

Mark E Petersen cranked out some beauties, like the "Worthy Negros will be allowed to drive their Cadillacs in the Celestial Kingdom" verbal hermmorage but the bedpost admonition stood alone at the top, unequaled by Chevy Chase, Bill Murray. John Cleese could have done the screenplay and performance at a worthy level, perhaps.

Rocker Ute
04-14-2016, 09:12 PM
A few years back my sister-in-law bought a dvd set of the first few seasons of Sesame Street and we noted that it had a sticker that said, "Not appropriate for all children". We had a good laugh about that, but watching it they said and did things that you simply don't see on children's shows today. For example, Oscar the Grouch was a big time jerk.

The FX app has every Simpsons ever. It is kind of interesting to see how they poked fun at things like homosexuality in the mid 90s compared to how it is allowed today. Some of it is quite shocking actually. You simply don't see that today.

You may have seen Jerry Seinfeld when Letterman was retiring redo his first standup routine he ever did on Letterman at the start of his career. The whole bit was about fat people, it wasn't all that well received. Seinfeld noted after that he had actually just redone his old bit that was well received at the time but standards have changed. You just don't make fun of fat people anymore.

My point in all of this is standards that really aren't in the too distant past have changed quite a bit and many things that were said and done publicly are mores now. Our general standards and beliefs have evolved pretty dramatically, mostly for the good.

A lot of this stuff we are talking about is laughable or disturbing but not entirely uncommon at the time. I'm not defending it really, I'm just reminding that even 10-15 years ago it was a different time.


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LA Ute
04-15-2016, 01:03 AM
My wife told me stories about licked cupcakes and chewed up gum as well when we were active members. These occurred in Eastern Washington and were taught 10 to 12 years ago.

Also her friend, active at the time and attending byu law, told us her story about her leader holding up a head of lettuce and saying it is a boys brain. She pulled off a leaf, held up the rest and said this is the part of the brain devoted to thinking about sex. The leaf was what boys thought about everything else. She grew up in Oregon.

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Do you think the licked cupcake story etc. are official church teachings, or urged by the church officially; or are just stupid ideas, contrary to basic LDS beliefs about the Atonement, that some misguided members have used? I think the latter. I can't tell if you are indicting the entire church or some pockets of cultural stupidity.

Mormon Red Death
04-15-2016, 05:39 AM
Do you think the licked cupcake story etc. are official church teachings, or urged by the church officially; or are just stupid ideas, contrary to basic LDS beliefs about the Atonement, that some misguided members have used? I think the latter. I can't tell if you are indicting the entire church or some pockets of cultural stupidity.
https://youtu.be/fgIBG8q1Gjc
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Applejack
04-15-2016, 07:38 AM
Yeah, man. You should come out. It's not the best ward I've belonged to in terms of fun, but it's at least sensible about things. Based on your game posts, I think it would fun to watch football with you.

:confused: I hope you don't have any sharp objects lying about your house. I love Funk, but I couldn't watch a game with him--too much drama.

Ma'ake
04-15-2016, 07:54 AM
Do you think the licked cupcake story etc. are official church teachings, or urged by the church officially; or are just stupid ideas, contrary to basic LDS beliefs about the Atonement, that some misguided members have used? I think the latter. I can't tell if you are indicting the entire church or some pockets of cultural stupidity.

I think you're correct, but I also observe that if the folklore was about people of African ancestry, the corrections to wrongheaded thinking would be swift and sure. (Granted, I haven't been to Cliven Bundy's ward or churches in Southern Utah)

BYU's black eye about the Honor Code and sexual assaults is a nudge down the path for full parity for women.

Kate Kelly might be getting some smug satisfaction from all this, but in the future a lot of LDS women will more fully understand that the patronizing "uplifting" they got in the past was really more of a pat on the head.

Scorcho
04-15-2016, 08:07 AM
Several pages into this thread and no one has mentioned the trauma received from reading the Miracle of Forgiveness as a teen? What's wrong with you people, don't you want to know that Bigfoot is actually Cain?

:)

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 08:11 AM
:confused: I hope you don't have any sharp objects lying about your house. I love Funk, but I couldn't watch a game with him--too much drama.

Truth. "That's it...I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna jump of your deck this time."

"Bro, it's the first quarter...have another craft beer and sit down."

"Ok fine...but if they don't get this 3rd down, I'll jump for sure!"

:)

LA Ute
04-15-2016, 08:25 AM
I think you're correct, but I also observe that if the folklore was about people of African ancestry, the corrections to wrongheaded thinking would be swift and sure.

Probably, but we don't know that the licked cupcake/chewed gum thing is really happening any more, or how widespread it ever was, or whether it was ever corrected in a given ward or branch. There are about 23,000 wards and 7500 branches in the church today. Stupid things are going to be said here and there, especially in certain geographic locations. Meanwhile, from general conference and lesson manuals and visiting authorities at stake conference, members are hearing more messages about the infinite atonement of Christ and the hope of redemption for everyone, no matter what they've done, than at any time in this old codger's lifetime, and perhaps in the history of the church. For example:


My dear brothers and sisters, my dear friends, I testify that God sees us as we truly are—and He sees us worthy of rescue.

You may feel that your life is in ruins. You may have sinned. You may be afraid, angry, grieving, or tortured by doubt. But just as the Good Shepherd finds His lost sheep, if you will only lift up your heart to the Savior of the world, He will find you.

He will rescue you.

He will lift you up and place you on His shoulders.

He will carry you home.

If mortal hands can transform rubble and ruins into a beautiful house of worship, then we can have confidence and trust that our loving Heavenly Father can and will rebuild us. His plan is to build us into something far greater than what we were—far greater than what we can ever imagine. With each step of faith on the path of discipleship, we grow into the beings of eternal glory and infinite joy we were designed to become.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/he-will-place-you-on-his-shoulders-and-carry-you-home?lang=eng

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

LA Ute
04-15-2016, 08:37 AM
Meanwhile, it gets more and more clear that BYU needs to revise its approach to these matters.

(http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened)Prosecutor says rape case is threatened by BYU Honor Code investigation (http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened)
It just seems to me that allegations of rape should be handled by law enforcement and campus disciplinary councils should stay out and let the legal system work.

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 08:45 AM
Meanwhile, it gets more and more clear that BYU needs to revise its approach to these matters.

(http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened)Prosecutor says rape case is threatened by BYU Honor Code investigation (http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened)


It just seems to me that allegations of rape should be handled by law enforcement and campus disciplinary councils should stay out and let the legal system work.

No question.

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 08:46 AM
I'd bet that if you count the number of times the cupcake has actually been taught, it is fewer than the number of times Richard G Scott alone gave a conference talk about the complete, absolute power of repentance.

Plus that piercing gaze into the camera...

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 08:49 AM
You should come too - you still moving to CO? You can help me talk funk off the ledge.

I'll feel bad for you when you have to replace your Bryce Harper pic with an ugly Rockies uniform.

Haha. Yep. House goes up next week. Summer in Utah, CO probably in August or as soon as we can find a place. I'm loyal to my DC teams all the way...though I have wondered how my Redskins gear will play outside of the DC Metro Area.

U-Ute
04-15-2016, 10:11 AM
I'm confused, is "licking the cupcake" against the honor code, or not? I've heard varying stories on this.

Then again, I may not be thinking it is what you guys think it is.

LA Ute
04-15-2016, 10:33 AM
I'm confused, is "licking the cupcake" against the honor code, or not? I've heard varying stories on this.

Then again, I may not be thinking it is what you guys think it is.

If you were at BYU the above post would be an Honor Code violation. Here, you simply get this: http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-rolleye-smileys-725.gif (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/skype-emoticons.html)

Scorcho
04-15-2016, 10:43 AM
I'm confused, is "licking the cupcake" against the honor code, or not? I've heard varying stories on this.

Then again, I may not be thinking it is what you guys think it is.

I don't know what licking the cupcake means either, but it sounds enticing.

all I know is that at my age I'm clearly a chewed piece of gum and the sugar flavor is nearly all gone

just ask Mrs Scorcho

:D

Applejack
04-15-2016, 11:26 AM
Haha. Yep. House goes up next week. Summer in Utah, CO probably in August or as soon as we can find a place. I'm loyal to my DC teams all the way...though I have wondered how my Redskins gear will play outside of the DC Metro Area.

How did I miss this news? Am I all alone on the East Coast? Is Brian the closest Utahby5ite to me? Didn't BoylenOver move to Maine? Someone help me!

Mormon Red Death
04-15-2016, 11:37 AM
How did I miss this news? Am I all alone on the East Coast? Is Brian the closest Utahby5ite to me? Didn't BoylenOver move to Maine? Someone help me!

I'm in the NC Triangle Region (Chapel Hill, Raleigh & Durham)

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 11:44 AM
How did I miss this news? Am I all alone on the East Coast? Is Brian the closest Utahby5ite to me? Didn't BoylenOver move to Maine? Someone help me!

I got tired of staying up for the 11:00 kicks/tip offs. :)

U-Ute
04-15-2016, 11:55 AM
I got tired of staying up for the 11:00 kicks/tip offs. :)

A completely reasonable reason to move across the country in my mind.

DrumNFeather
04-15-2016, 12:02 PM
A completely reasonable reason to move across the country in my mind.

I really need the Pac 12 to make a deal with Direct TV so I can get both it and Sunday ticket.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack, back to BYU being nutzo.

Mormon Red Death
04-15-2016, 12:03 PM
I really need the Pac 12 to make a deal with Direct TV so I can get both it and Sunday ticket.

Ok, sorry for the threadjack, back to BYU being nutzo.

You dont need sunday ticket... you just need the redzone...

Diehard Ute
04-15-2016, 12:03 PM
Maybe you should move to CO. That's what the cool posters are doing.

That contact high is messing with your cool meter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Diehard Ute
04-15-2016, 12:06 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened

The Deputy should be fired and charged for accessing documents he had no reason to access. It's even worse that he's a BYU employee (or former) and believes it's his duty as law enforcement to hand BYU documents

The fact that the DA himself dismissed the charge against the deputy using information he won't disclose bothers me. The fact that he got slapped on the wrist really bothers me.

BYU should fire whoever accepted the report and whoever is using what is an illegally obtained report to harass a victim.

This is absolutely deplorable. The quotes from BYU's reps are scary at best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LA Ute
04-15-2016, 12:49 PM
Has this been posted elsewhere here?

American Bar Association advances religious discrimination investigation on BYU (http://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/american-bar-association-advances-religious-discrimination-investigation-on-byu)

This one focuses on the law school. I'm torn here because I generally think of the ABA as a communist organization. (I kid, I kid. Mostly.)

NorthwestUteFan
04-16-2016, 02:01 AM
Several pages into this thread and no one has mentioned the trauma received from reading the Miracle of Forgiveness as a teen? What's wrong with you people, don't you want to know that Bigfoot is actually Cain?

:)
I mentioned that book because it urges women to fight to the death rather than be raped, because rape is worse than death apparently.

But that book also has the gem that young men need to avoid masturbation, because it invariably leads to mutual masturbation, which leads to homosexuality. Frankly if that were true the lgbt percentage of the population would be closer to 97% than 5%.

In SWK's defense, he did later in life state that he went too far when he wrote that book (iirc early 1960s).

Of course my bishop still had it on the shelf when I was in his office a few weeks ago. One of these days in will ask him if he ever really read it.

NorthwestUteFan
04-16-2016, 02:25 AM
Do you think the licked cupcake story etc. are official church teachings, or urged by the church officially; or are just stupid ideas, contrary to basic LDS beliefs about the Atonement, that some misguided members have used? I think the latter. I can't tell if you are indicting the entire church or some pockets of cultural stupidity.
For sure it was an embellishment added by well-meaning leaders, and not a part of an actual manual.

My wife heard it in the form of, "If you have sex at any time before marriage then no worthy priesthood holder will want you. They won't want to buy a car that was driven by somebody else." This is a form of slut shaming (a term which I abhor, but it is the common usage). This classroom situation was very uncomfortable for my wife as a 15 yr-old, and made worse because the friend sitting beside her in the class that day had been raped by an acquaintance earlier that year. This was not common knowledge, but it didn't relieve the poor girl from feeling entirely worthless in the eyes of God.

The underlying message is that sex and sexuality belongs within the bonds of marriage only, and that a woman's sexuality itself is not controlled by the woman herself but rather by something outside of her (e.g. her parents, or an institution, or her husband). And if she attempts to own that for herself then she can get shamed for it. Girls at very young ages are taught to dress 'modestly', and even 5 yr-old girls can get told to cover their shoulders. All of the responsibility for controlling the boys' sexuality seems to be placed on the shoulders of the girls, with seemingly minimal reciprocal effort given to teach the boys to control themselves.

This byu situation is horribly messed up. But it isn't too far away from logical extensions of culturally-accepted thoughts, ideas, and gender roles. In fact the gender roles are effectively cemented in place by the Proclamation on the Family.

I think this is also related to the notion that women should get a good education so they can stay home and raise the kids, and not so they can go out into the world and have a career. The stay-at-home Mom is preferred, and the career mom is often a second-class citizen at church. Ruth and Dale Renlund are close friends with my parents, and that type of shunning over the years was very hard on Ruth (who is an attorney).

NorthwestUteFan
04-16-2016, 02:28 AM
I got tired of staying up for the 11:00 kicks/tip offs. :)
Roger that. This was one of my favorite benefits of swapping the Eastern for the Pacific time zone.

Rocker Ute
04-16-2016, 07:59 AM
Maybe he refuses to throw the baby out with the bath as 90% of that book is really good stuff.

You are living in the wrong generation and talking to the wrong people if you think that way.

LA Ute
04-16-2016, 08:21 AM
I mentioned that book because it urges women to fight to the death rather than be raped, because rape is worse than death apparently.

But that book also has the gem that young men need to avoid masturbation, because it invariably leads to mutual masturbation, which leads to homosexuality. Frankly if that were true the lgbt percentage of the population would be closer to 97% than 5%.

In SWK's defense, he did later in life state that he went too far when he wrote that book (iirc early 1960s).

Of course my bishop still had it on the shelf when I was in his office a few weeks ago. One of these days in will ask him if he ever really read it.

Can't buy it at DesBook any more.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

NorthwestUteFan
04-16-2016, 09:01 AM
Can't buy it at DesBook any more.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
As of about 5 years ago.

NorthwestUteFan
04-16-2016, 09:32 AM
Well, I haven't read it in a long time, so 90% was a completely made up number.
The problem is in quotes like these:


"Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."

-Spencer W Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness.

Statements like this and others institutionalized the 'blame the victim' mentality, which still exists in that backward hellhole of Provo. If the victim looked provocative, or dressed sexy, or smiled the wrong way, then she was partly to blame according to SWK.

Rocker Ute
04-16-2016, 10:23 AM
Yes, I know. That quote has been mentioned a dozen times in this thread already. What I was saying is that the book contains a lot of uplifting truth and I don't see why your bishop can't have it on his shelf.

Critics always want people to be remembered by the 1% of bad stuff instead of the 99% of good stuff.

Wrong. It is all bad and you should feel bad.

LA Ute
04-16-2016, 11:11 AM
Critics always want people to be remembered by the 1% of bad stuff instead of the 99% of good stuff.

That's how we see you on this board. We keep a special dossier on you that contains all of the bad stuff you've posted. True, it's only 1%, but....

Dwight Schr-Ute
04-16-2016, 08:15 PM
For sure it was an embellishment added by well-meaning leaders, and not a part of an actual manual.

My wife heard it in the form of, "If you have sex at any time before marriage then no worthy priesthood holder will want you. They won't want to buy a car that was driven by somebody else." This is a form of slut shaming (a term which I abhor, but it is the common usage). This classroom situation was very uncomfortable for my wife as a 15 yr-old, and made worse because the friend sitting beside her in the class that day had been raped by an acquaintance earlier that year. This was not common knowledge, but it didn't relieve the poor girl from feeling entirely worthless in the eyes of God.

The underlying message is that sex and sexuality belongs within the bonds of marriage only, and that a woman's sexuality itself is not controlled by the woman herself but rather by something outside of her (e.g. her parents, or an institution, or her husband). And if she attempts to own that for herself then she can get shamed for it. Girls at very young ages are taught to dress 'modestly', and even 5 yr-old girls can get told to cover their shoulders. All of the responsibility for controlling the boys' sexuality seems to be placed on the shoulders of the girls, with seemingly minimal reciprocal effort given to teach the boys to control themselves.

This byu situation is horribly messed up. But it isn't too far away from logical extensions of culturally-accepted thoughts, ideas, and gender roles. In fact the gender roles are effectively cemented in place by the Proclamation on the Family.

I think this is also related to the notion that women should get a good education so they can stay home and raise the kids, and not so they can go out into the world and have a career. The stay-at-home Mom is preferred, and the career mom is often a second-class citizen at church. Ruth and Dale Renlund are close friends with my parents, and that type of shunning over the years was very hard on Ruth (who is an attorney).

Yes. Our chastity focus has evolved into a focus on modesty. Nip it in the bud, sorta speak. I remember there being a story in The Friend about a young girl shopping for new clothes with her mom and picking up a cute tank top but getting a bad feeling and moved on the something more appropriate. Or even more comically, when they added cap sleeves to the two angels in Bloch's The Resurrection. Of course the women had to cover up those shoulders while the Savior was okay in his chest baring toga. http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54142351-180/bloch-church-angels-modesty.html.csp

But this isn't the first time the church got caught holding the cap sleeve. https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/09/03/editing-photos-to-add-cap-sleeves-is-a-bad-idea/

I was in a joint YM/YW 5th Sunday lesson taught by a member of the bishopric about a year ago. This guy is also a high school principal and therefore really dialed in to what's going on with the youth. Which made his comments all the more unfortunate. Part of the lesson focused towards the YM about honoring the priesthood by being worthy to hold it. He then turned to the YW and asked them to do their part in keeping the YM worthy by dressing modestly. I'm embarrassed to admit that I kind of froze and didn't interject at the time. It was awhile ago, but I'm remembering the phrase "walking porn." But the next Sunday, I made it very clear to my Teacher's quorum that they are absolutely responsible for all of their thoughts and actions, regardless.

LA Ute
04-16-2016, 09:22 PM
But the next Sunday, I made it very clear to my Teacher's quorum that they are absolutely responsible for all of their thoughts and actions, regardless.

I absolutely agree with this. But wouldn't you agree that the girls can make life a little easier for the boys by dressing modestly? Not in burkhas, mind you, but maybe just not showing off 95% of what they've got.

Scorcho
04-16-2016, 09:37 PM
Can't buy it at DesBook any more.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

its also convenient how they removed the "great and abominable whore" reference to the Catholic Church from Mormon Doctrine.

Someone had a vision that one day BYU would be in the WCC and that phrase might not go over to well

:)

Jarid in Cedar
04-16-2016, 09:47 PM
I absolutely agree with this. But wouldn't you agree that the girls can make life a little easier for the boys by dressing modestly? Not in burkhas, mind you, but maybe just not showing off 95% of what they've got.
This would sound great if they spent even 1/3 of the time talking to the boys about modest dress that they do the girls.

LA Ute
04-16-2016, 10:46 PM
This would sound great if they spent even 1/3 of the time talking to the boys about modest dress that they do the girls.

With the boys we obsess about tats.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

Rocker Ute
04-16-2016, 11:00 PM
This would sound great if they spent even 1/3 of the time talking to the boys about modest dress that they do the girls.

When the boys start wearing John Stockton nut hugger shorts there'll be some 'splainin to do.

I spend more time with the young men where there is a ton of talk about respecting women. My BIL's ward the YM all wear pink ties to show that they respect women. I'm not usually for that sort of stuff (meaning making a production over things they should be doing anyway) but I thought it was cool they were emphasizing that.

LA Ute
04-17-2016, 02:04 PM
When the boys start wearing John Stockton nut hugger shorts there'll be some 'splainin to do.

I spend more time with the young men where there is a ton of talk about respecting women. My BIL's ward the YM all wear pink ties to show that they respect women. I'm not usually for that sort of stuff (meaning making a production over things they should be doing anyway) but I thought it was cool they were emphasizing that.

It seems to me from hanging out with the young men over the past few years that they have bigger challenges than just dealing with the way LDS girls dress. Most of our young men here hardly know any LDS girls outside of their own ward anyway. Sancho is right.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

mUUser
04-20-2016, 10:47 AM
I absolutely agree with this. But wouldn't you agree that the girls can make life a little easier for the boys by dressing modestly? Not in burkhas, mind you, but maybe just not showing off 95% of what they've got.


No, I can't agree with this.

If there's a car with engine idling and door wide open, I'd fully expect my son to walk by that car like it was shut down, and locked up as tight as a drum. And if he's a man with any character at all, it shouldn't be hard for him at all to not steal that car. Likewise with the girls dressed in a bikini at a pool party. Son.......keep your freaking hands to yourself!

LA Ute
04-20-2016, 11:46 AM
No, I can't agree with this.

If there's a car with engine idling and door wide open, I'd fully expect my son to walk by that car like it was shut down, and locked up as tight as a drum. And if he's a man with any character at all, it shouldn't be hard for him at all to not steal that car. Likewise with the girls dressed in a bikini at a pool party. Son.......keep your freaking hands to yourself!

Not talking about hands, about minds. For teenage male believers who think they ought to make a decent effort to have what they (and many other believers) consider clean thoughts, immodestly dressed girls, as we define modesty, make that harder. I know you get this.

To me this is all about line-drawing for the faithful. I think even SU would agree that neither young men nor young women should show up at a Mutual pool party naked. So how much clothing is enough? And why is it enough?

Before anyone gets upset, there's no justification for sexual abuse of any kind. A female's choice of clothing does not implicate her or make her guilty or complicit in such abuse in any way. Period. Men are responsible for their own actions and thoughts. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with that. This is a spiritual matter for me and all the LDS leaders who talk about it. Here are the introductory paragraphs from the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet on this subject:


Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.

https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/dress-and-appearance?lang=eng

Those are the basic beliefs. Many people (not you) get very upset about what the LDS Church teaches on this subject and want to start talking about chewed gum or licked cupcake analogies, but the church (not misguided YW or YM teachers) is urging its kids to aspire to a pretty high standard. That's religion. We all fall short of our spiritual aspirations. But we try.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus