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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #721
    The recent video of a 12 year old utah county girl is interesting and has created a lot of discussion.

    I've read several opinion pieces and even watched a one hour episode of "Mormon Stories" (for which I feel like I deserve a Klondike bar......say what you will about him but Dehlin is a lousy host) with the girl and her mom.

    While I agree with some who say that F&T is not the appropriate place to do this, its also a somewhat hollow argument as I think anyone who's been to many of those meetings knows that there's a lot of stuff said that's not appropriate for the meeting. I've heard nutty political rants from the far right fringes, TMI, etc.

    I get what the stake presidency guy was thinking because he had no idea how long she was going to go on. But I really wish he had just let her finish. Or at least have the guts to respond himself instead of sending that nervous counselor. This is a different (and I'd argue smaller) story if he just lets her finish.

    I'm also not a fan of the friend recording it. Unless there's some crazy circumstance, its be nice to be respectful of the rules.

  2. #722
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  3. #723
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    The recent video of a 12 year old utah county girl is interesting and has created a lot of discussion.

    I've read several opinion pieces and even watched a one hour episode of "Mormon Stories" (for which I feel like I deserve a Klondike bar......say what you will about him but Dehlin is a lousy host) with the girl and her mom.

    While I agree with some who say that F&T is not the appropriate place to do this, its also a somewhat hollow argument as I think anyone who's been to many of those meetings knows that there's a lot of stuff said that's not appropriate for the meeting. I've heard nutty political rants from the far right fringes, TMI, etc.

    I get what the stake presidency guy was thinking because he had no idea how long she was going to go on. But I really wish he had just let her finish. Or at least have the guts to respond himself instead of sending that nervous counselor. This is a different (and I'd argue smaller) story if he just lets her finish.

    I'm also not a fan of the friend recording it. Unless there's some crazy circumstance, its be nice to be respectful of the rules.
    that video made me a little uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable as I've been in other F&T meetings about different topics. I respect the 12 year old for having the courage to speak, although I'd argue at age 12 being gay or straight is still probably being developed/defined. Age 12 is far too young to that conclusion. Isn't it?

    That could have been an incredible teaching moment in that ward, but it looks like it was botched by the leadership. Also not a fan of recording that.

  4. #724
    I just love how Mormon that F&T was. Loud as heck with all the kids and 90% of the people not paying attention.


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  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    that video made me a little uncomfortable, but not as uncomfortable as I've been in other F&T meetings about different topics. I respect the 12 year old for having the courage to speak, although I'd argue at age 12 being gay or straight is still probably being developed/defined. Age 12 is far too young to that conclusion. Isn't it?

    That could have been an incredible teaching moment in that ward, but it looks like it was botched by the leadership. Also not a fan of recording that.
    I am not a big fan of written/prepared testimonies, but I certainly understand why this girl chose to write down her feelings and thoughts before sharing them. It took a lot of courage to stand and say what she said.

    I wish the guy would have let her finish.

    I thought the guy who stood up afterwards said some simple and helpful things that in many ways supported what the girl was saying. It certainly could have been handled worse.

    I guess what surprised me somewhat is that the guy who is in front of where the video is being shot didn't blink or flinch or turn to look at his wife when the girl announced she is gay.

    I have been at two meetings where someone was asked to sit down. On both occasions, the person was really coloring outside the lines of the doctrine of the Church. I don't think this girl's thoughts were out of line.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I am not a big fan of written/prepared testimonies, but I certainly understand why this girl chose to write down her feelings and thoughts before sharing them. It took a lot of courage to stand and say what she said.

    I wish the guy would have let her finish.

    I thought the guy who stood up afterwards said some simple and helpful things that in many ways supported what the girl was saying. It certainly could have been handled worse.

    I guess what surprised me somewhat is that the guy who is in front of where the video is being shot didn't blink or flinch or turn to look at his wife when the girl announced she is gay.

    I have been at two meetings where someone was asked to sit down. On both occasions, the person was really coloring outside the lines of the doctrine of the Church. I don't think this girl's thoughts were out of line.
    I can't really blame the girl or the church leader.

    I can say I would have handled things differently as the parent. A 12-year-old might not know what is and isn't appropriate for sacrament meeting, but Mom and Dad should know.

  7. #727
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can't really blame the girl or the church leader.

    I can say I would have handled things differently as the parent. A 12-year-old might not know what is and isn't appropriate for sacrament meeting, but Mom and Dad should know.
    Just to add some perspective, I read that the girl had a large entourage -- not chosen by her, but by her ex-Mormon mom who was there. So I am imagining the leader on the stand (a stake presidency member who's also a member of that ward), watching all these people come in with the mom, who left the church some time ago; and several of that group with their cell phones raised, recording the girl's testimony -- which the girl is reading from a prepared text; and suddenly this looks like something more than just a 12 year-old girl bearing her testimony. I wasn't there and I don't know. what was the right thing to do, or what I would've done. But it sure looks like there was a lot more going on than we see in the video.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Just to add some perspective, I read that the girl had a large entourage -- not chosen by her, but by her ex-Mormon mom who was there. So I am imagining the leader on the stand (a stake presidency member who's also a member of that ward), watching all these people come in with the mom, who left the church some time ago; and several of that group with their cell phones raised, recording the girl's testimony -- which the girl is reading from a prepared text; and suddenly this looks like something more than just a 12 year-old girl bearing her testimony. I wasn't there and I don't know. what was the right thing to do, or what I would've done. But it sure looks like there was a lot more going on than we see in the video.
    Those facts in mind and frankly how it all rolled out might make that guy feel like he wasn't wrong to shut it down. In fact I bet the cameras and entourage were the bigger contributing factor as I can count on one finger how many times I've seen someone stopped from giving their testimony and I've seen a LOT of wacky stuff. Nobody wants to get up there and do that.

    But of course now I need to tell you mine. A new guy rolled into town and hung around for a few months. Nice enough guy, a little different but mostly harmless. He gets up one F&T and starts to ramble on about Gettysburg and coming to a realization of what he must do because Bill Clinton (president at the time) was trying to kill him. He goes on for a bit more and then says, "That's why I am here to declare today that I went to the Lt. Governor's office and filed to run for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES."

    The bishop hopped up, whispered something in his ear and sat down. The guy says, "Oh the bishop says we are out of time but you are welcome to meet with me in the foyer after to learn more."

    That was that. People were all cool to him and wished him luck in his presidency.

    That person went on to become EVAN MCMULLIN!

    Just kidding about that last part, but he rest is true. 40+ years and that's all I've seen.

    Hind sight being 20/20 they probably could have just whispered in her ear to wrap it up and that would have done it and then expressed their love to her after. But nobody wants to be part of a circus and that is probably what they were seeing that day. Too bad the kid is getting objectified that way by people who should care for her.


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  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Hind sight being 20/20 they probably could have just whispered in her ear to wrap it up and that would have done it and then expressed their love to her after.
    Probably, but she did have pre-prepared, written (by her mother?) remarks and had apparently been coached.

    I hate the thought of using one of my kids to make a statement.

    I've seen people told to wrap it up because they were going long but never due to content. The best candidate was a high priest in my ward in NOLA talking about his courtship and marriage - he met her by soliciting sex while she was a prostitute. They fell in love and later joined the church. It's been five years since I left NOLA, and I still miss those meetings. Every single testimony meeting was both entertaining and uplifting.

  10. #730
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Those facts in mind and frankly how it all rolled out might make that guy feel like he wasn't wrong to shut it down. In fact I bet the cameras and entourage were the bigger contributing factor as I can count on one finger how many times I've seen someone stopped from giving their testimony and I've seen a LOT of wacky stuff. Nobody wants to get up there and do that.

    But of course now I need to tell you mine. A new guy rolled into town and hung around for a few months. Nice enough guy, a little different but mostly harmless. He gets up one F&T and starts to ramble on about Gettysburg and coming to a realization of what he must do because Bill Clinton (president at the time) was trying to kill him. He goes on for a bit more and then says, "That's why I am here to declare today that I went to the Lt. Governor's office and filed to run for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES."

    The bishop hopped up, whispered something in his ear and sat down. The guy says, "Oh the bishop says we are out of time but you are welcome to meet with me in the foyer after to learn more."

    That was that. People were all cool to him and wished him luck in his presidency.

    That person went on to become EVAN MCMULLIN!

    Just kidding about that last part, but he rest is true. 40+ years and that's all I've seen.

    Hind sight being 20/20 they probably could have just whispered in her ear to wrap it up and that would have done it and then expressed their love to her after. But nobody wants to be part of a circus and that is probably what they were seeing that day. Too bad the kid is getting objectified that way by people who should care for her.


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    Yeah, I'm not very comfortable with his telling her to sit down. I'm just saying that perhaps making the guy out to be an uptight, overbearing Mormon leader is not fair. Perhaps.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yeah, I'm not very comfortable with his telling her to sit down. I'm just saying that perhaps making the guy out to be an uptight, overbearing Mormon leader is not fair. Perhaps.
    None of us were there, but this might be part of the reason for the policy to not let the children of gay marriage families get baptized. These kind of confrontations would be far more likely, as kids decide what they're hearing in church doesn't square with their positive experiences at home.

    Until the church is ready to make big changes in policy and reconsider theological points held for a long time - like what happened with the priesthood ban, but much bigger in scope - then it's probably best to try to minimize the potential for confrontation. Basically, "pull in, until you're ready to reach out".

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yeah, I'm not very comfortable with his telling her to sit down. I'm just saying that perhaps making the guy out to be an uptight, overbearing Mormon leader is not fair. Perhaps.
    As I understand it, the Bishop of this ward was not around and, had he been in attendance, knowing the family, the nuances, etc., probably would have let it go.

    I can get behind the idea that the girl's intent was noble. I can even get behind the idea that the mother's intent was as well - though she had been out of the church for some time. Obviously, none of us knows what that conversation was like and what the lead up was, what she/they hoped to accomplish etc.

    What I can't get behind is that because of the possibility that John Dehlin at least had some involvement in orchestrating this, I think it changes it completely (that has been rumored - and if it was another group, same thing). If he didn't, he has at a minimum completely exploited her and her family as another arrow in his quiver to go after the church, which again I find personally despicable, but that's just me.

    I have a buddy in the Bishopric in my ward and he said that it has at least sparked some positive conversations among our ward leadership. If that is the case across the broader church, then hopefully some good will come out of it.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yeah, I'm not very comfortable with his telling her to sit down. I'm just saying that perhaps making the guy out to be an uptight, overbearing Mormon leader is not fair. Perhaps.
    I agree with you. I can also say that I am unaware of any official policy on what should be done in this type of situation so contrary to Maake's assumption that this is a symptom of pulling in before reaching out this was just the action of an individual and not some larger push from HQ to tamp down differing thought.


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  14. #734
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Once when I was in a bishopric a sweet elderly sister with early dementia was bearing her testimony and just got lost, rambling and rambling. I was conducting, and being a young and very inexperienced guy I just got up, after a couple of minutes of that, and touched her elbow. She immediately realized what she had been doing and closed. Before she could get away from the pulpit the bishop jumped up, put his arm around her, and said to everyone, "I just want Sister Jones to know how much we all love her. She can bear her testimony anytime she wants to bear it, because I want to hear it." It was quite a moment for me, one I'll never forget.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post

    That person went on to become EVAN MCMULLIN!

  16. #736
    The primary reason we are commanded to congregate together each week on the Sabbath is to partake of the sacrament and renew our baptismal covenants—reaffirming our commitment as disciples of Christ. The hour-long service associated with that public ritual is as sacred an event as we have in the LDS faith. Notwithstanding the pragmatism and casual nature with which the meeting is organized and conducted, and despite the fact it is available to any and all individuals who wish to attend. Any action by any person in attendance that aims to detract from the intended spirit, potentially putting at risk the sacredness of the meeting, should be reproved with love.

    The prepared statement read by the girl, in and of itself, may not represent an action designed to detract from the spirit that can be present at such meetings. However, the disrespect shown by the entourage, in attendance to witness and record the statement, was reprehensible. With the only evident purpose serving to mock and ridicule others in their desire to commune with the divine in a manner they find comforting and appropriate. Therefore, the actions of the presiding authority were proper. While the actions of the rabble (large or small) were not. Leaving no room for debate.

    As for the girl—we have far too little information to go on, to know her full intent, and how much of the statement she read is truly her own. That’s the most unfortunate aspect of this entire episode.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    should be reproved with love.


    This should be the title of this thread: "LDS homosexuals: Reproved with love!"

  18. #738
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This should be the title of this thread: "LDS homosexuals: Reproved with love!"
    I reprove you with love all the time, but I get no credit.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-26-2017 at 12:47 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This should be the title of this thread: "LDS homosexuals: Reproved with love!"
    Leave it to Smackjack to misrepresent words to the benefit of ... humour, I guess?

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I reprove you with love all the time, but I get no credit.
    Are you calling me gay? (Not that there is anything wrong with that)

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Leave it to Smackjack to misrepresent words to the benefit of ... humour, I guess?
    "humour?" DevilDog was right about you. You are a Canadian.

  21. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This should be the title of this thread: "LDS homosexuals: Reproved with love!"
    That's a good point, but how does one reprove with love? "Here is a really heavy gift that is going to be difficult to get home because you've done something wrong. Also I am going to send you too many greeting cards until you get the point."

  22. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Are you calling me gay? (Not that there is anything wrong with that)



    "humour?" DevilDog was right about you. You are a Canadian.
    Thanks for your reproval!

  23. #743
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Are you calling me gay? (Not that there is anything wrong with that)
    I was referring only to my many loving reprovals of you for a multitude of other reasons, and your lack of gratitude for them.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #744
    After watching the tape and reading CNN's account, I feel reasonably comfortable in asserting both the girl and the leader acted in good faith, without malice.

    For me, this is as controversial as a pantsuit at church -- which is to say in HRC words, "it's the biggest-nothing burger ever."
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  25. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    After watching the tape and reading CNN's account, I feel reasonably comfortable in asserting both the girl and the leader acted in good faith, without malice.

    For me, this is as controversial as a pantsuit at church -- which is to say in HRC words, "it's the biggest-nothing burger ever."
    Agreed.

    The girl seemed genuine and the leader, while a little bungling, wanted to do the right thing as well. Only the internet can turn a non-event into a binary screaming contest (THE GIRL WAS BRAINWASHED BY A NONMORMON MOTHER AND SAYING WHAT SHE SAID IN SACRAMENT MEETING IS THE WORST v. THE GUY SHUT OFF THE MIC OF A 12-YEAR OLD AND HATES THE GAYS!)

  26. #746
    Yes, I understand this isn't a story about homosexuals and the church, but, the closest fit is with this thread....

    Fascinating story.....

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...signing?page=3
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  27. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Yes, I understand this isn't a story about homosexuals and the church, but, the closest fit is with this thread....

    Fascinating story.....

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...signing?page=3
    What a journey. It's safe to say the vast majority of us don't know what it's like to have those kinds of feelings.

    There are three basic reactions Mormons (or any other group in the same situation) will have to this story:

    1. Try to be supportive, try to understand, appreciate the common humanity, keep loving the people in our lives.

    2. Judge, freak out, blame it on Hollywood, etc.

    3. "I can't wait for the big game coming up!"

    The plight of these souls who are coming out of the woodwork around us, depends a great deal upon how people react to them, if they're (more or less) accepted, or if they're marginalized as freaks. The study indicating that since gay marriage, the suicide rate among teenagers has declined, reveals a lot.

  28. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    What a journey. It's safe to say the vast majority of us don't know what it's like to have those kinds of feelings.

    There are three basic reactions Mormons (or any other group in the same situation) will have to this story:

    1. Try to be supportive, try to understand, appreciate the common humanity, keep loving the people in our lives.

    2. Judge, freak out, blame it on Hollywood, etc.

    3. "I can't wait for the big game coming up!"

    The plight of these souls who are coming out of the woodwork around us, depends a great deal upon how people react to them, if they're (more or less) accepted, or if they're marginalized as freaks. The study indicating that since gay marriage, the suicide rate among teenagers has declined, reveals a lot.
    My son recently told me about a close friend he has known for a number of years who has gone through the same transformation from husband, married in LDS Temple, returned missionary to a female. Needless to say, it has been a difficult road for this friend.

  29. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    What a journey. It's safe to say the vast majority of us don't know what it's like to have those kinds of feelings.

    There are three basic reactions Mormons (or any other group in the same situation) will have to this story:

    1. Try to be supportive, try to understand, appreciate the common humanity, keep loving the people in our lives.

    2. Judge, freak out, blame it on Hollywood, etc.

    3. "I can't wait for the big game coming up!"

    The plight of these souls who are coming out of the woodwork around us, depends a great deal upon how people react to them, if they're (more or less) accepted, or if they're marginalized as freaks. The study indicating that since gay marriage, the suicide rate among teenagers has declined, reveals a lot.
    Just for clarity sake, it's hopefully true that the suicide rate among LGBT teens has declined, but overall the suicide rate among all groups is surging:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/h...year-high.html

    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...olescent-girls

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...across-america

  30. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Just for clarity sake, it's hopefully true that the suicide rate among LGBT teens has declined, but overall the suicide rate among all groups is surging:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/h...year-high.html

    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...olescent-girls

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...across-america
    The economic pressure on large segments of our population is gruesome. Hence, Trump. Hence, Bernie. Hence, "I don't care if Trump gives Putin all the nuclear codes lets him sleep with Melania, BRING BACK MY COAL MINING JOB!"

    The opiod epidemic is scary as hell.

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