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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    The economic pressure on large segments of our population is gruesome. Hence, Trump. Hence, Bernie. Hence, "I don't care if Trump gives Putin all the nuclear codes lets him sleep with Melania, BRING BACK MY COAL MINING JOB!"

    The opiod epidemic is scary as hell.
    Those are all substantial contributing factors. As is a lack of acceptance of LGBT individuals. But each of those factors, and isolating discrimination as a main culprit do not address the single biggest factor that causes any person to take their own life: mental illness.

    It's common for advocates to suggest arguments against gender fluidity etc. are binary. The problem is, they often do so making equally binary arguments of their own. The hard truth is, the numbers suggest that even if all discrimination suddenly stopped (which is a goal worth striving for). Large numbers of LGBT individuals would still take their own life. Just as large numbers of people would still take their life, even if all the coal mining jobs came back. The heart of the problem is a lack of understanding and access to help, in dealing with debilitating mental health issues.
    Last edited by tooblue; 07-20-2017 at 09:17 AM.

  2. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Those are all substantial contributing factors. As is a lack of acceptance of LGBT individuals. But each of those factors, and isolating discrimination as a main culprit do not address the single biggest factor that causes any person to take their own life: mental illness.

    It's common for advocates to suggest arguments against gender fluidity etc. are binary. The problem is, they often do so making equally binary arguments of their own. The hard truth is, the numbers suggest that even if all discrimination suddenly stopped (which is a goal worth striving for). Large numbers of LGBT individuals would still take their own life. Just as large numbers of people would still take their life, even if all the coal mining jobs came back. The heart of the problem is a lack of understanding and access to help, in dealing with debilitating mental health issues.
    Prevalence Of Mental Disorders May Be Higher Than Previously Thought:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4568843.html

  3. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Prevalence Of Mental Disorders May Be Higher Than Previously Thought:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4568843.html
    '
    Aren't we all a little mentally ill?

  4. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    '
    Aren't we all a little mentally ill?
    Yes we are. That is why it is irresponsible to simply blame the victim for his own suicide.

    "He did it because he was broken" or "He wasn't right in the head..."
    Last edited by NorthwestUteFan; 07-20-2017 at 05:47 PM.

  5. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Yes we are. That is why it is irresponsible to simply blame the victim for his own suicide.

    "He did it because he was broken" or "He wasn't right in the head..."
    Not sure I understand your logic? No one is simply blaming anyone. Rather, that's the problem. It is unfortunate that there are persons who insist, despite the overwhelming evidence, that suicide is exclusively the consequence of bullying in all it's various forms, or due solely to an individual having to suffer through dire economic circumstances. I truly believe every person will deal with a mental health issue, in some form or another, during their life-time. Bullying, a lack of compassion and kindness, poverty and desperation, occurring at an inopportune time, could certainly push someone over the edge. However, legitimate and significant mental health challenges are what put that person in proximity to the edge in the first place. It is irresponsible to suggest otherwise.
    Last edited by tooblue; 07-20-2017 at 07:37 PM.

  6. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    '
    Aren't we all a little mentally ill?
    Well, speaking as the black sheep—absolutely.

  7. #757
    This last Sunday, one of our youth speakers was a young woman wearing a white button down and a tie. I was ready for some fireworks, but turns out I was over-reacting. People around me probably wondered why I was recording.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #758
    Religious liberty and fairness for all:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...s-for-all.html
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  9. #759
    Imagine Dragons take a shot at bringing religion and LGBTQ together.....

    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45234130&nid=148
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  10. #760
    I'm having a really hard time with the righteous indignation that some are directing at Trump's failure to stand up to racists right now.

    When it became socially unacceptable to be blatantly racist and oppressive, the rhetoric shifted to claiming reverse discrimination and protecting whites from persecution. But it was never about pride or heritage or protection against reverse discrimination. It was just the same old racism.

    In the course of 10-15 years we've seen the shift from it being socially acceptable to hate and oppress gays to claiming reverse discrimination of religion and oppression of religious freedom by gays. And in the case of the LDS church we're talking about active institutional racial discrimination in our lifetime (for many of us) and active and CONTINUED institutional discrimination against gays in our lifetime.

    i just don't see how in a complete lack of self-awareness, some can denounce the alt-right race rhetoric while simultaneously using the exact same rhetorical strategies to continue the pursuit of an anti-gay agenda. We live in a very narrow window of time where people can still talk about these issues like they're different, but thankfully that window is closing.

  11. #761
    LDS Church issues statement of support for Imagine Dragons LGBTQ concert.....


    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ert-event.html
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  12. #762
    "It literally tore my soul into pieces growing up, because I knew the Church was true but I knew that a core piece of who I was was in direct opposition of my belief," Courtney shares of the years of secrecy she experienced as a lesbian Mormon. After leaving the Church and finding a woman she fell in love with and later married, Courtney and her wife Rachelle felt a pull toward the gospel that later caused them to divorce and join the Church.

    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  13. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    LDS Church issues statement of support for Imagine Dragons LGBTQ concert.....


    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ert-event.html
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    "It literally tore my soul into pieces growing up, because I knew the Church was true but I knew that a core piece of who I was was in direct opposition of my belief," Courtney shares of the years of secrecy she experienced as a lesbian Mormon. After leaving the Church and finding a woman she fell in love with and later married, Courtney and her wife Rachelle felt a pull toward the gospel that later caused them to divorce and join the Church.

    This is a fascinating juxtaposition. Again the message is, 'we are ok for you to BE gay, just don't DO anything that could be construed to be gay...'. Subtext:"you are still an apostate if you are in a same-sex marriage and a disciplinary council is mandatory. Expect to be sent for."

    Also, there is quite a strong undercurrent of sociopathy at play in that video. The woman's father refused for five years to meet her WIFE? Good thing her grandmother effectively shamed the family into accepting her wife by bringing the wife into the wedding picture. It seems a special kind of evil to refuse to allow a child's spouse to be part of the family, unless that spouse is a criminal or otherwise dangerous.

    And I am glad they are happy in the video. I hope they remain happy long into the future.

  14. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This is a fascinating juxtaposition. Again the message is, 'we are ok for you to BE gay, just don't DO anything that could be construed to be gay...'. Subtext:"you are still an apostate if you are in a same-sex marriage and a disciplinary council is mandatory. Expect to be sent for."

    Also, there is quite a strong undercurrent of sociopathy at play in that video. The woman's father refused for five years to meet her WIFE? Good thing her grandmother effectively shamed the family into accepting her wife by bringing the wife into the wedding picture. It seems a special kind of evil to refuse to allow a child's spouse to be part of the family, unless that spouse is a criminal or otherwise dangerous.

    And I am glad they are happy in the video. I hope they remain happy long into the future.
    That's a super weird video. Very interesting story that offers a different perspective. I appreciate the comments towards the end that this is their story and it isn't going to work for everyone, but it should have been a much stronger message. These stories get isolated and used as weapons by people like this woman's father. "It worked out for these two, it should work out the same for my son/daughter. Just more faith. More prayer. More service." That seems very wrong to me.

    The biggest tragedy for both of these women, is that if they end up in heterosexual marriages, they can enter into the House of the Lord to be sealed for time and all eternity but their children wouldn't be able to get baptized until they were 18. That policy still blows my mind.

  15. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    The biggest tragedy for both of these women, is that if they end up in heterosexual marriages, they can enter into the House of the Lord to be sealed for time and all eternity but their children wouldn't be able to get baptized until they were 18. That policy still blows my mind.
    Uh . . . what?
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  16. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    Uh . . . what?

    The new policy could be interpreted the way he's describing......boggles the mind to think that it would be.....but, the way it's written it could leave a smidgen of wiggle room. There's four paragraphs in the policy to consider:

    1. "A.......child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship.....may be baptized.....only as follows:"
    2. ".....request approval from the OFP.....for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when.....both of the following requirements are met:"
    3. "The child......disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation...." and,
    4. "The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation...."

    I would assume a child born in the covenant trumps all, but, honestly don't know for certain. Those with a pay grade much higher than me can hash that out.

    But, I will agree with him on this point -- the policy created more problems than it proposed to solve. To treat children of gay parents the same as children of hetero parents would've made too much sense -- in most cases, this includes receiving permission from both parents, gay or hetero.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  17. #767
    The rational flip side of the policy (where children of gay parents cannot get baptized before age 18) is for people to refuse to baptize their kids before age 18. Obviously it isn't a big deal to wait, if all kids are equal. But the sad reality is the church sees the children of same-sex couple as poison on some level, and seem to fear other members seeing the family as normal.

    As it turns out my wife's friend used to live in the same ward as the short-haired woman in the video. Needless to say her father is a piece of work. He once showed up at the ward Halloween party as a Prop 8 sign. There is a very good chance this video will get turned into a 'pray the gay away' Mo celebrity tour.

  18. #768
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    Interesting take from a leader in another faith.

    How Catholics Can Welcome LGBT Believers
    It’s possible to stay faithful to the church’s teachings without turning away millions.


    by Cardinal Robert Sarah

    https://www.wsj.com/article_email/ho...jAzMjIwNzIyWj/

    Warning: I think this may be behind the Wall Street Journal pay wall. First paragraph:

    The Catholic Church has been criticized by many, including some of its own followers, for its pastoral response to the LGBT community. This criticism deserves a reply—not to defend the Church’s practices reflexively, but to determine whether we, as the Lord’s disciples, are reaching out effectively to a group in need. Christians must always strive to follow the new commandment Jesus gave at the Last Supper: “Love one another, even as I have loved you.”

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #769
    One step forward, two steps back: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/1...-gay-weddings/

    I guess I have a simplistic view of this. In my home my religious beliefs allow me to discriminate against anyone and everyone if I so choose. I can refuse to allow anyone I want to enter my home. When I enter the public square, my religious beliefs allow me to advocate discrimination against everyone, but my religious beliefs to do not allow me to prevent others from advocating the opposite position. When I enter the public marketplace, my religious beliefs do not allow me to discriminate against protected groups. I am not forced to enter the public marketplace, but if I do, I must play by those rules.

  20. #770
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    One step forward, two steps back: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/1...-gay-weddings/

    I guess I have a simplistic view of this. In my home my religious beliefs allow me to discriminate against anyone and everyone if I so choose. I can refuse to allow anyone I want to enter my home. When I enter the public square, my religious beliefs allow me to advocate discrimination against everyone, but my religious beliefs to do not allow me to prevent others from advocating the opposite position. When I enter the public marketplace, my religious beliefs do not allow me to discriminate against protected groups. I am not forced to enter the public marketplace, but if I do, I must play by those rules.
    Is it just me or is the LDS Church sending out mixed messages?

    The LDS Church admirably will stand by the LGBT community when it comes to housing and other basic rights, but when it comes to complicated matters such as baking a wedding cake, well you're on your own. Its what Jesus would want.

    sigh!
    Last edited by Scorcho; 09-13-2017 at 07:47 AM.

  21. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    Is it just me or is the LDS Church sending out mixed messages?

    The LDS Church admirably will stand by the LGBT community when it comes to housing and other basic rights, but when it comes to complicated matters such as baking a wedding cake, well you're on your own. Its what Jesus would want.

    sigh!
    One unfortunate result of actions like these is that it invites LDS members disposed to discriminate to do so and to feel that the church is encouraging them to do so.

  22. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    but when it comes to complicated matters such as baking a wedding cake,
    I don't think they see this as a cake - they see it as a precedent that leads to bishops being forced to perform weddings for gay couples. Maybe the law talkers can weigh in.

  23. #773
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    First Amendment issues are so interesting and so difficult. Anyway it's too bad this is going to go to the Supreme Court. We will get some law out of it, which may provide guidance to others; will surely be controversial; and will not be the last we hear about this issue.

    Personally, I would've baked the cake. But I can see and understand the discomfort of those who see the issue differently. And all of the "slippery slope" argument is often ridiculed, it actually does apply in cases of constitutional law. A precedent is a precedent.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Personally, I would've baked the cake. But I can see and understand the discomfort of those who see the issue differently. And all of the "slippery slope" argument is often ridiculed, it actually does apply in cases of constitutional law. A precedent is a precedent.
    Slippery slope is how law gets done, right?

  25. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think they see this as a cake - they see it as a precedent that leads to bishops being forced to perform weddings for gay couples. Maybe the law talkers can weigh in.
    Requiring a buisnes to not discriminate will lead to forced weddings of gay couples? Awfully slippery slope there.

  26. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Requiring a buisnes to not discriminate will lead to forced weddings of gay couples? Awfully slippery slope there.
    You're the law guy. It's all Greek to me. I just figure that a slippery slope is what the church is worried about. I don't think they care about the cake.

  27. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    You're the law guy. It's all Greek to me. I just figure that a slippery slope is what the church is worried about. I don't think they care about the cake.
    Yeah, I assume you are right. The thing I don't get is the church has tons of attorneys, many good ones. I just can't believe they believe this will eventually result in requiring gay marriage for churches.

  28. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Yeah, I assume you are right. The thing I don't get is the church has tons of attorneys, many good ones. I just can't believe they believe this will eventually result in requiring gay marriage for churches.
    Maybe the worry is not that specific. The church seems concerned in general about where things could go with religious freedom issues.

  29. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    First Amendment issues are so interesting and so difficult. Anyway it's too bad this is going to go to the Supreme Court. We will get some law out of it, which may provide guidance to others; will surely be controversial; and will not be the last we hear about this issue.

    Personally, I would've baked the cake. But I can see and understand the discomfort of those who see the issue differently. And all of the "slippery slope" argument is often ridiculed, it actually does apply in cases of constitutional law. A precedent is a precedent.
    If you don't want to do business with certain groups that is your right so long as you identify all of those groups on your store and on advertising and marketing materials. We wouldn't want you to unknowingly be exposed to people you are religiously opposed to serving. All restaurant servers could wear tags indicating which groups they will and will not serve. Better yet, we can set aside special sections of restaurants and motels where only certain groups can be served. We can have separate entrances and everything so no ones religious beliefs are infringed.

    One thing is clear is that whatever side of this issue the Court comes down on, the decision will be a rallying cry for those inclined to discriminate whether they be white supremacists or the "religious" right.

  30. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Maybe the worry is not that specific. The church seems concerned in general about where things could go with religious freedom issues.

    I think there are better ways of protecting religious freedom than joining with those who espouse bigotry as legitimate religious expression or belief.

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