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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #781
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Requiring a buisnes to not discriminate will lead to forced weddings of gay couples? Awfully slippery slope there.
    Right on cue, you're ridiculing the slippery slope argument. But you know that this case is going to result in a decision, which will be a precedent in future cases, based on which creative lawyers on either side will bring cases, seeking to push the boundaries of the law one direction or the other. That's how it works, as you know.

    This is all political anyway. Supreme Court decisions amount to politics, buffered by the appointments process. If there are enough justices on the Court who want to find a way to get to the bottom of that slippery slope, they will.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-13-2017 at 10:54 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #782
    It is time for Lucien Greaves and the Satanic Temple to demand these bakeries make cakes that say 'Hail Satan!' or 'Jesus Is Dead!' or something similar. The bakeries strictly cannot based on religion, so they should be forced to comply. Hilarity will ensue.

    Once again the old men at 50 E North Temple will show themselves to be diametrically opposed to 85% of the younger generation of people they lose sleep over leaving the church. The message is confusing, do they support lgbt rights, a la their explicit and implied support of the LoveLoud festival last month, or this?

    The crazy thing is they could eliminate all of their future concerns about being forced to marry same sex couples by allowing couples to marry outside of the temple, followed by a temple sealing ceremony immediately after just as they already do every other nation. Buy here in the US they force the couple to wait 12 months, which carries an implicit shaming.

    Active church-goers, does this dichotomy disturb you? I would think there is a significant amount of anti-lgbt fatigue in wards every time something like this is announced.

    Jesus would bake the damn cake.

  3. #783
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Active church-goers, does this dichotomy disturb you? I would think there is a significant amount of anti-lgbt fatigue in wards every time something like this is announced.

    Jesus would bake the damn cake.
    I honestly think the church's leaders are not concerned about the cake but about the long-term impact of societal trends on freedom to practice our religion. Whether or not one agrees with them, to be fair-minded one must at least understand the LDS memory of past persecution and the expectation that there will be persecution, to some extent, in the future. We want the law to protect us from that. This is a reasonable concern, IMO.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    The message is confusing, do they support lgbt rights, a la their explicit and implied support of the LoveLoud festival last month, or this?
    I don't think the message is all that confusing. You yourself recently summed it up. The LDS church supports LGBT rights and LGBT members but asks them to remain celibate. It's been pretty consistent in that lately.

    The Church does not see the cake as an LGBT rights question - it is viewed as a religious freedom issue.

    So, no, I'm not disturbed by any dichotomy, since I think the church has been more or less consistent. I am bugged that the church can't just let the case run its course. In general, I prefer the church not to get involved in politics. And this case seems particularly trivial on both sides.

    If Jesus would bake the cake, he might also preach a sermon to the buyers (and the sellers, and all of us, really).

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Right on cue, you're ridiculing the slippery slope argument. But you know that this case is going to result in a decision, which will be a precedent in future cases, based on which creative lawyers on either side will bring cases, seeking to push the boundaries of the law one direction or the other. That's how it works, as you know.

    This is all political anyway. Supreme Court decisions amount to politics, buffered by the appointments process. If there are enough justices on the Court who want to find a way to get to the bottom of that slippery slope, they will.
    I honestly hate these cases (cakes? Who cares?). But I don't buy that if this case comes out in support of the buyer that we are any closer to abolishing the first amendment. We just aren't.

    This country has a long history of rights to practice religion. I don't see any, Any evidence that that is under attack.

    I think the church's drumbeat about religious freedom (or more properly, oakes') is misguided.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I honestly hate these cases (cakes? Who cares?). But I don't buy that if this case comes out in support of the buyer that we are any closer to abolishing the first amendment. We just aren't.

    This country has a long history of rights to practice religion. I don't see any, Any evidence that that is under attack.

    I think the church's drumbeat about religious freedom (or more properly, oakes') is misguided.
    Oaks is a pretty knowledgeable law-guy, too, though. He may have insights that you don't. And you probably have some that he doesn't share. And you both know a million times more than I do.

    Mormons have both historical and doctrinal (end-of-days!) reasons to fear issues related to religious freedom. Maybe we are hyper-sensitive to it because of that.

    I read through the Atlantic's three-part series on title IX this past week. It's not related to religion, but it's striking how many people are okay with limiting others' protections and freedoms in support of their own causes.

    Slippery slopes/boiling frogs - the point is that you don't see how the result brings us any closer to the undesirable outcome. And the argument both ways on the cake thing is a slippery slope argument. On the one hand, you have those afraid of LDS bishops being forced to marry gay couples. On the other, you have those afraid of segregated sections of restaurants. All over a cake which seemingly can't move the needle in either direction. One thing we do agree on - this is all dumb.
    Last edited by sancho; 09-13-2017 at 12:56 PM.

  7. #787
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    The Virginia-based Christian Legal Society filed its brief Monday on behalf of the LDS Church, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the National Association of Evangelical, the National Association of Evangelical, the Orthodox Jewish Congregations and others. It asks the nation’s high court not to forget the First Amendment rights of those who are deeply religious.
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/1...-gay-weddings/

    I'm guessing the Westboro Baptists are all over this too, is that really the kind of company the LDS Church wants to keep?

  8. #788
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I honestly hate these cases (cakes? Who cares?). But I don't buy that if this case comes out in support of the buyer that we are any closer to abolishing the first amendment. We just aren't.
    Bit of a straw man, wouldn't you agree? 😉

    I was mainly trying to describe what think (think) the church is worried about. Just my impression.

    I am personally pretty fatalistic about this whole subject. I think society is going to continue to secularize, and it will be harder and harder to be religious person. Nothing new in that idea, it's been prophesied for centuries. I think the church is just trying to do its best to carve out a place for itself and its members in that world. I doubt they even think they will succeed, long-term. They just want to raise their voices in support of what they believe is right. And, as sancho said, they're trying to do so in a way that doesn't hurt or discriminate against anybody, or cause hatred or anything along those lines.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #789
    I just believe that there are better places to spend your capital if you are interested in carving out a place for the church and its members.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I just believe that there are better places to spend your capital if you are interested in carving out a place for the church and its members.
    I have to believe an increasing number of active church members belong to the 'Straight, but not Narrow...' group.

  11. #791
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    I have to believe an increasing number of active church members belong to the 'Straight, but not Narrow...' group.
    With very few exceptions, I think every LDS person interested in this issue is trying to do what they think is right, and in accordance with their own conscience.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #792
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This seems a bit over-wrought but relates to our discussion.

    What’s changed in Britain since same-sex marriage?

    https://www.spectator.com.au/2017/09...-sex-marriage/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #793
    The best predictor of how things would play out with a broader ruling/law/amendment in support of religious freedom is what happened in Indiana. Under Governor Pence, the Legislature passed a "freedom of religion" bill that (essentially) gave businesses the right to discriminate.... which quickly was viewed by other side as "they just legalized discrimination!"

    The LGBT viewpoint was more predominant, most businesses couldn't put up "We Don't Discriminate" signs quick enough, the NCAA was looking at ways to pull out of Indiana, etc. The Legislature quickly added a "this is not a license to discriminate" provision, Pence signed it, while admitting he didn't understand what the fuss was all about.

    Most of these religious freedom efforts are simply ways to help those uncomfortable with change feel better about themselves, or find strength in numbers, or whatever. Unless there's a Let's Not Talk About This Anymore Constitutional Amendment for topics so designated, the religious freedom efforts will only serve to further isolate and identify those who want to hit the go-back button on time.

    "I can decide who I want to serve, and you are constitutionally prohibited from telling anyone else about it, especially CNN".

    My grandma - god bless her soul - would be 1000% for a declaration signed by Trump saying "just because I don't think negroes should be allowed to live in white neighborhood doesn't make me a racist!"

    Alas, grandma passed in the 90s, and excepting the Charlottesville wing of American society, those views are over-the-horizon in the rearview mirror in America. So will it be with the bakers who decide to take themselves out of the free market, as younger generations wonder what these religious freedom efforts were all about. (Or, maybe they'll self-segregate to Christian homelands within the US, which wouldn't be a great idea for their kids, but is certainly possible.)

  14. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This seems a bit over-wrought but relates to our discussion.

    What’s changed in Britain since same-sex marriage?

    https://www.spectator.com.au/2017/09...-sex-marriage/
    Yes, just a tad alarmist.

  15. #795
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    This is one area where my beliefs break from the liberals and the Democrats.

    The same principle I use that says "There shouldn't be any state sponsored funding of statues dedicated to Confederate leaders" says "The private sector can decide who and who they do not want to provide services to".

    I don't think they should be forced to make cakes for gay weddings. Let the market decide before we go about making laws about this. I understand that the market is made up of people and that people have prejudices and that our leaders have to set goals and directions, but I don't think we're to that point yet. I don't see widespread discrimination of the LGBT community by retailers like there were of blacks.

    But I admit that I am not in a position to see or feel those types of experiences.

    That's the Libertarian side of me coming out.

  16. #796
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...l-journey.html

    "We don't understand or know how all of this will play out in eternity," Christofferson writes that his parents told one of their sons around this time. "So we are going to make sure we enjoy every single moment with Tom in this life."

    great article
    Last edited by Scorcho; 09-14-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    ......
    That's the Libertarian side of me coming out.
    That's the struggle I have with this. If people who own their own business (not a shareholder business) want to be complete turds about things and not sell to the gay community, well, that says more about them than the gay couple. I'm hesitant to ask the govt to step in to do something about it. OTOH, the baker has brought his business public, and therefore, if he makes a cake, then anyone meeting the financial requirements ought to be able to purchase the cake. On the third hand.....perhaps that provision should only be applied to items that are offered to the public for sale, but shouldn't be required to produce a specialty cake upon request. IOW, the gay couple ought to be able to buy a cake if the cake has already been made and offered to the public -- but the baker should be able to turn down custom orders based on personal belief.

    I don't know -- you smart guys figure it out and I'll happily abide.

    As for me and my house, we support LGBTQ for ANY right enjoyed by all other law-abiding, tax-paying, adult american citizens of sound mind. I don't trust the govt enough to believe any other way.
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  18. #798
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...l-journey.html

    "We don't understand or know how all of this will play out in eternity," Christofferson writes that his parents told one of their sons around this time. "So we are going to make sure we enjoy every single moment with Tom in this life."

    great article
    Tom lives in the ward we attend when we are in Salt Lake. He teaches the Gospel Doctrine class there. He's one of the best teachers of that class I've ever known. He's a terrific human being.

    As fate would have it, Tom's other brother Greg teaches Gospel Doctrine in a ward in our stake in L.A., where I attend at least monthly because of an assignment I have. He's ALSO a fabulous teacher and a wonderful man. Those Christoffersons are an amazing family!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #799
    [QUOTE=LA Ute;104155Those Christoffersons are an amazing family![/QUOTE]

    Go Duke Go!

  20. #800
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think they see this as a cake - they see it as a precedent that leads to bishops being forced to perform weddings for gay couples. Maybe the law talkers can weigh in.
    Unless they have deep seeded hatred of homosexuals causing them to be irrational, there is no reason this should be a concern. It will never happen.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    Last edited by mpfunk; 09-14-2017 at 08:16 PM.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  21. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Yes, just a tad alarmist.
    The Spectator hates. I don't like it.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

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  22. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    This is one area where my beliefs break from the liberals and the Democrats.

    The same principle I use that says "There shouldn't be any state sponsored funding of statues dedicated to Confederate leaders" says "The private sector can decide who and who they do not want to provide services to".

    I don't think they should be forced to make cakes for gay weddings. Let the market decide before we go about making laws about this. I understand that the market is made up of people and that people have prejudices and that our leaders have to set goals and directions, but I don't think we're to that point yet. I don't see widespread discrimination of the LGBT community by retailers like there were of blacks.

    But I admit that I am not in a position to see or feel those types of experiences.

    That's the Libertarian side of me coming out.
    This is an understandable position; let people do what they want and let the marketplace award winners and losers. It feels very libertarian. But I doubt you (or anyone) really believes in that position to it's full extent.

    For example, I think you would have problems with a restaurant refusing service to people of color; or jews; or mormons; or women. That's why the court has essentially said if you are in the public marketplace, you cannot discriminate. In your personal life do whatever you want, believe what you want, be with people that you deem acceptable. But as soon as you hold yourself out as open for business, that means that whomever is willing to pay for your services cannot be discriminated against based on the color of their skin, their god, or their loved ones.

  23. #803
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Yes, just a tad alarmist.
    I am not familiar with that publication or the author. But if what he claims is happening really is happening, don't you agree that people of good will on both sides of the issue ought to be concerned, and should be able to have a thoughtful discussion about it all?
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-16-2017 at 12:23 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #804
    Helping LDS Leaders Understand Recent Perspectives on LGTB Issues

    A document to help local LDS leaders understand some of the most recent statements and materials presented by senior leaders about LGBT topics.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/bonz5dxw7l...%2017.pdf?dl=0
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  25. #805
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Commentary: Coming face to face with The Last Judgment

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commen...last-judgment/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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