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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Congrats this may be one of the most condescending posts on this site.

    FYI, I don't put the same level of thought or editing into my message board posts as I do my legal writing.

    Oh and go fuck yourself.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    As condescending as holding everyone other than yourself to a higher standard? Maybe.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    You realize you are talking about American culture, and not purely LDS culture right? Please stop pretending it's isolated to Mormons. It makes you look stupid.
    You do realize that the subject of this thread is "the path of homosexuality in LDS theology"

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This seems to be a significant step by the church. The official church video (embedded in the article) came out yesterday or the day before.

    https://www.lds.org/blog/navigating-...prclt=Tw6EjpH7
    My sister in law has flipped from gay to straight back to gay again over the last 20 years, my father in law has handled that about as well as anybody possibly could. I've never heard him utter a negative word and has been more than welcoming to all of her partners. No way could I have been that understanding.

  4. #664
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    You do realize that the subject of this thread is "the path of homosexuality in LDS theology"
    Absolutely. Doesn't change the fact that Mormon culture is tightly intertwined with American culture. It is, after all, "The American religion" ... at least according to Tolstoy.

  5. #665
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I would agree it was a significant step if the church hadn't at the same time put in the Ensign that homosexual marriages are counterfeit. While defining counterfeit as "worthless" and "twisted."

    Plus, how messed up is the teachings of the church if a significant step is to say that parents shouldn't ostracize their children if they are gay. It shows how messed up the culture is that this needs to be said in the first place.

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    So much truth here.

  6. #666
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Well technically if they actually are led by revelation from God, then their opinion on the matter would be right and it wouldn't matter what yours was

    I'm just sayin'...


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    Yup. These are also the same people that taught that black people were naughty in the pre-existance and other horrible things that were WRONG.

    So, I wouldn't put much faith in their ideas when it comes to how to treat others.

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    You realize you are talking about American culture, and not purely LDS culture right? Please stop pretending it's isolated to Mormons. It makes you look stupid.
    I HATE this argument. Well, everyone else does it, so it's ok.

    We are supposed to be led by a prophet that has direct revelation from God. We should be the FIRST to do what's right, not the LAST.

    The last time we were in this predicament, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964. We didn't change until 1978.

    That's unacceptable.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    This argument about higher standards is an interesting one. In my experience interacting with you over several years, it is fair in my estimation to characterize your perspective on the world, specifically the LDS church and its teachings, as enlightened. At the very least, it is fair for me to assert that I discern you believe you are an enlightened person.

    What's more, if I remember correctly, you are a lawyer, or possess a law degree. Ergo, my expectation is that I should be able to hold you to a higher standard, specifically as it relates to your ability to write, and employ the English language—an imperfect, ancient human technology—in daily efforts to convey precise meaning, facilitate understanding and avoid confusion and potential conflict.

    Distressingly, your most recent post in this thread does not achieve those ends. Your comments are derisive and invite conflict. Therefore, I can only surmise that the school where you studied law can be at fault, for the inability of your words, as they have been written, to convey precise meaning and facilitate understanding.

    Unless, of course you alone as an individual can be blamed for your inadequate writing skills. Which of course calls into question the entire law educational system, if not the entire law profession ... I could go on. But I'll stop here out of respect for L.A. Holding others to higher standards is a dangerous game to play.
    lol. I see tooblue lives by this credo:

    If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.

    A long pile of incoherent garbage.

  9. #669
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Yup. These are also the same people that taught that black people were naughty in the pre-existance and other horrible things that were WRONG.

    So, I wouldn't put much faith in their ideas when it comes to how to treat others.
    Woosh.


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  10. #670
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    I HATE this argument. Well, everyone else does it, so it's ok.

    We are supposed to be led by a prophet that has direct revelation from God. We should be the FIRST to do what's right, not the LAST.

    The last time we were in this predicament, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964. We didn't change until 1978.

    That's unacceptable.
    Ya, you're right. There are no race issues in the US. That was all sorted out during the civil rights movement. If only those dang Mormons could catch up with the rest of America, we'd no longer have Treyvon Martin's getting shot and riots in St. Louis!
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-23-2017 at 06:20 AM.

  11. #671
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Ya, you're right. There are no race issues in the US. That was all sorted out during the civil rights movement. If only those dang Mormons could catch up with the rest of America, we'd no longer have Treyvon Martin's getting shot and riots in St. Louis!
    And, ya Utah. I really think you are onto something here. I bet it's Mormons who are behind President Trumps travel ban. Now that I think about it, Mormons also must be behind those anti-LGBT laws in North Carolina.
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-23-2017 at 06:19 AM.

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    And, ya Utah. I really think you are onto something here. I bet it's Mormons who are behind President Trumps travel ban. Now that I think about it, Mormons also must be behind those anti-LGBT laws in North Carolina.
    you've gone full zoob

  13. #673
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    you've gone full zoob
    Only a zoot would try to bring BYU into this discussion.

  14. #674
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Absolutely. Doesn't change the fact that Mormon culture is tightly intertwined with American culture. It is, after all, "The American religion" ... at least according to Tolstoy.
    Dude, you need to get out more. The vast majority of this country doesn't think twice about the Mormon church, much less its culture, which a much different thing. To the extent they do, most think Mormons are weird and backwards.

  15. #675
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    I think this just shows that pretty much the only people that are anti-gay are the ones at the top.

    In 20 years, our new prophet will have the same revelation that Kimball had and realize that the Church's policies were not inspired by god, but by fear, they will change them, and we will move onto the next discriminated group in our church. Women? Probably. Someday we will catch up to the gentiles when it comes to treating people correctly.
    A couple of months ago, during ward conference, my bishop, a retread called back in because his predecessor suddenly moved out of the ward, talked about the difference between policy and doctrine. He was a missionary in Texas before 1978, and he related a story where a member was upset when a black member was invited to the chapel for the general priesthood session broadcast. This individual stated that if blacks were ever given the priesthood, he would leave the church. Within in a matter of months, the policy was changed. My bishop made the point that while the policy had changed, the doctrine of the priesthood had not. Other policies have changed in my lifetime, another example used by my bishop was the move to the 3 hour meeting block.

    I expect that the policy that was leaked a while back will eventually be changed, perhaps even sooner than we think, but the doctrine on marriage will not.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  16. #676
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    Dude, you need to get out more. The vast majority of this country doesn't think twice about the Mormon church, much less its culture, which a much different thing. To the extent they do, most think Mormons are weird and backwards.
    Dude, I don't live in the US. So, I'm not sure how much more you want me to get out? The point is, the issues funk is all worked up about aren't exclusive to Mormons, though that's what he'd have you believe. Ironically, your point reinforces that fact; that intolerance is rampant all across the entirety of the US among a majority of Americans, because while the State of Utah (heavily populated by those not-worth-noticing backwards Mormons) has passed landmark legislation protecting LGBT rights, other states are currently or have recently passed legislation curtailing LGBT rights. In that light, it can be argued the LDS church and it's members are ahead of the curve. I don't know that I fully agree with such an argument, but it can be made.
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-23-2017 at 06:05 PM.

  17. #677
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Yup. These are also the same people that taught that black people were naughty in the pre-existance and other horrible things that were WRONG.

    So, I wouldn't put much faith in their ideas when it comes to how to treat others.
    One member of the 12, who later became church president, once said man would never walk on the moon. These are fallible men, just like the rest of us, who, according to LDS belief, are sometimes inspired by God.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  18. #678
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Dude, I don't live in the US. So, I'm not sure how much more you want me to get out? The point is, the issues funk is all worked up about aren't exclusive to Mormons, though that's what he'd have you believe. Ironically, your point reinforces that fact; that intolerance is rampant all across the entirety of the US among a majority of Americans, because while the State of Utah (heavily populated by those not-worth-noticing backwards Mormons) has passed landmark legislation protecting LGBT rights, other states are currently or have recently passed legislation curtailing LGBT rights. In that light, it can be argued the LDS church and it's members are ahead of the curve. I don't know that I fully agree with such an argument, but it can be made.
    You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

    No the issue is not isolated to Mormons not in the slightest. Mormons though visibly and actively attempted to deny homosexuals rights. So sorry I'm not giving you any ally cookies for a video is barely even a baby step in a 2 million mile journey.

    That legislation you talk of is not landmark. It was a few common sense things like homosexuals should be allowed to have jobs and housing mixed in with a bunch of unneeded religious freedom bullshit. The argument that the LDS Church and its members are ahead of the curve is laughable.

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  19. #679
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    You are putting a lot of words in my mouth.

    No the issue is not isolated to Mormons not in the slightest. Mormons though visibly and actively attempted to deny homosexuals rights. So sorry I'm not giving you any ally cookies for a video is barely even a baby step in a 2 million mile journey.

    That legislation you talk of is not landmark. It was a few common sense things like homosexuals should be allowed to have jobs and housing mixed in with a bunch of unneeded religious freedom bullshit. The argument that the LDS Church and its members are ahead of the curve is laughable.

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    "Utah — yes, Utah — passes landmark LGBT rights bill"—Washington Post:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.63d8ae027272


    "As Anti-LGBT Laws Sweep U.S., How Did GOP-Led Utah Pass a Landmark Nondiscrimination Bill?"—Democracynow.org:


    https://www.democracynow.org/2016/4/..._laws_sweep_us


    "Utah passes landmark LGBT rights bill backed by Mormon leaders"—L.A. Times:


    http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...312-story.html


    "LGBT anti-discrimination bill passes Utah Senate ... Members of Utah's state Senate told personal stories of discrimination and even invoked the state's polygamist history during a Friday afternoon debate on a landmark bill that protects gay and transgender people from discrimination while also protecting religious rights."—Daily Mail Online:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...Utah-test.html


    "Utah Passes Antidiscrimination Bill Backed by Mormon Leaders ... 'It is a landmark,” said Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay rights organization. “This is a Republican-controlled Legislature with a Republican governor, and this will be the first time that a Republican-controlled process has led to extension of protections for L.G.B.T. people.'"—New York Times:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/u...ders.html?_r=0

    One more, edited in for interests sake ...

    "Utah Senate passes LGBT anti-discrimination bill ... Mormon church backs landmark bill banning housing and employment discrimination, though religious groups are exempt"—Al Jazeera America:

    http://america.aljazeera.com/article...tion-bill.html
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-24-2017 at 06:46 AM.

  20. #680
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Dude, I don't live in the US. So, I'm not sure how much more you want me to get out? The point is, the issues funk is all worked up about aren't exclusive to Mormons, though that's what he'd have you believe. Ironically, your point reinforces that fact; that intolerance is rampant all across the entirety of the US among a majority of Americans, because while the State of Utah (heavily populated by those not-worth-noticing backwards Mormons) has passed landmark legislation protecting LGBT rights, other states are currently or have recently passed legislation curtailing LGBT rights. In that light, it can be argued the LDS church and it's members are ahead of the curve. I don't know that I fully agree with such an argument, but it can be made.
    Then apparently you need to get in the US more to see how little Mormonism matters here. Claiming that Mormon culture is intertwined with American culture is pretty arrogant. Yes, kudos to the Utah State Legislature for passing that bill. That's awesome. But are you conflating them to the Mormon Church? Are you acknowledging the Utah is a theocracy? LGBT rights have expanded greatly in the US over the last three years, while the LDS church bans ssm couples and their children, treating them worse than murderers, rapists, and the like. The policy will ultimately change as so many others have, but it's too bad the patriarchy continues to blame their old white straight conservative male biases on God.

  21. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A couple of months ago, during ward conference, my bishop, a retread called back in because his predecessor suddenly moved out of the ward, talked about the difference between policy and doctrine. He was a missionary in Texas before 1978, and he related a story where a member was upset when a black member was invited to the chapel for the general priesthood session broadcast. This individual stated that if blacks were ever given the priesthood, he would leave the church. Within in a matter of months, the policy was changed. My bishop made the point that while the policy had changed, the doctrine of the priesthood had not. Other policies have changed in my lifetime, another example used by my bishop was the move to the 3 hour meeting block.

    I expect that the policy that was leaked a while back will eventually be changed, perhaps even sooner than we think, but the doctrine on marriage will not.
    This is where I have a little bit of an issue. I get what you are saying. I understand the policy vs doctrine. BUT, wasn't the blacks and priesthood taught as doctrine?

    If not, then where do we draw the line when it comes to following the prophet? Do I HAVE to follow the prophet, even if his policies are wrong (according to McConkie, yes). If the answer is yes, then what about my free agency and my ability to receive inspiration from the holy ghost?

    BTW, Joseph Fielding Smith said in "The Way to Perfection", p. 110 that the Church's view on blacks and the priesthood was doctrine, not policy.

    What happens when the doctrine on gay marriage becomes policy after we change it?

  22. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    One member of the 12, who later became church president, once said man would never walk on the moon. These are fallible men, just like the rest of us, who, according to LDS belief, are sometimes inspired by God.
    This
    This is what we fail to remember. These are just men, who are doing their best to help us do their best. I'm not so sure they are anything other than that, just like every other church out there. That is why their stances on homosexuality are so hard to hear.

    Are they from god, or are they just an older man's prejudices and fears?

    My heart tells me this isn't from God.

  23. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    BTW, Joseph Fielding Smith said in "The Way to Perfection", p. 110 that the Church's view on blacks and the priesthood was doctrine, not policy.
    Ah, but of course, "The Way to Perfection" is itself not doctrine. What a pickle!

  24. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    treating them worse than murderers, rapists, and the like.
    Wow, you understand this policy differently than I do!

  25. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Wow, you understand this policy differently than I do!
    honestly, I'm not sure anyone can argue with Hayes6 point.

    As an active LDS member, I am still struggling with the recent decision and rationale behind treating gay couples children any differently. I am fortunate that my bishop is not a hard-line type when it came to my last TR interview.

  26. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    honestly, I'm not sure anyone can argue with Hayes6 point.
    Nobody around here seems to really like or understand the policy, but "we don't want to create conflict in families" is a million miles from "gays are worse than rapists!"

  27. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Nobody around here seems to really like or understand the policy, but "we don't want to create conflict in families" is a million miles from "gays are worse than rapists!"
    clearly, nobody would even think of equating the two.

    but, why have a policy that focuses on gay parents exclusively. It's blatantly homophobic.

  28. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    clearly, nobody would even think of equating the two.

    but, why have a policy that focuses on gay parents exclusively. It's blatantly homophobic.
    I don't want to dive into this discussion but I'll just note that the same policy applies to children of polygamous parents. In fact, this one was modeled on that one. I have issues with how the new policy was rolled out, among other things, but I don't think it singles out any group. Ugh. I hate this.

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  29. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't want to dive into this discussion but I'll just note that the same policy applies to children of polygamous parents. In fact, this one was modeled on that one. I have issues with how the new policy was rolled out, among other things, but I don't think it singles out any group. Ugh. I hate this.
    Like many things, the policy was an answer seeking a problem. The policy of the LDS Church has always been that minors need parental permission to receive an LDS Church ordinance. This policy preventing such ordinances to the children of same sex marriages, even when the parents consent, is unnecessary. I guess that, instead of the parents saying no to Johnny's baptism, the parents can now say that the church you want to join won't let you join because of our marriage.

  30. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    Then apparently you need to get in the US more to see how little Mormonism matters here. Claiming that Mormon culture is intertwined with American culture is pretty arrogant. Yes, kudos to the Utah State Legislature for passing that bill. That's awesome. But are you conflating them to the Mormon Church? Are you acknowledging the Utah is a theocracy? LGBT rights have expanded greatly in the US over the last three years, while the LDS church bans ssm couples and their children, treating them worse than murderers, rapists, and the like. The policy will ultimately change as so many others have, but it's too bad the patriarchy continues to blame their old white straight conservative male biases on God.
    I was born and raised in Utah. I visit often. As an American and devout Mormon who currently lives outside the US, I can authoritatively state: the two cultures are inextricably linked. As well, it could be agued that one could not exist without the other. In fact, that is often what was taught in (LDS) church when I was growing up—that the restoration could only have happened in the United States of America, with a constitution guaranteeing certain inalienable rights. In particular the right to freedom of religion.

    Leo Tolstoy considers Mormonism the American Religion:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-Religion.html

    Additionally, the articles I linked to above contradict your assertions concerning the [great] expansion of LGBT rights in the US. Utah and it's laws that were backed by the LDS church and passed by legislators, a majority of which are active LDS,* is an outlier among what can be considered conservative US states. What's more, the reality is, any rights afforded to LGBT individuals in any state in the US is a fairly recent phenomenon. In contrast, I live in a country where LGBT individuals have had such rights for more than ten years. Including the right to marry:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/timeli...nada-1.1147516


    *http://www.sltrib.com/home/4663941-1...ntative-of-the
    Quote Originally Posted by Tribune
    Mormons will hold a 91-12 edge, according to a first-in-a-generation comprehensive list compiled by The Salt Lake Tribune. (One member, Sen. Daniel Thatcher, R-West Valley City, declined to list his religion, saying, "It doesn't matter").
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-24-2017 at 04:22 PM.

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