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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't want to dive into this discussion but I'll just note that the same policy applies to children of polygamous parents. In fact, this one was modeled on that one. I have issues with how the new policy was rolled out, among other things, but I don't think it singles out any group. Ugh. I hate this.

    Polygamous parents promote/teach their children about the virtues, advantages and "correct doctrine" of polygamy beginning at a very young and impressionable age. Gay parents are not known to promote the advantages, virtues and correct doctrine of being gay to their children. There's little, if any, relationship between the two situations IMO.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  2. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Polygamous parents promote/teach their children about the virtues, advantages and "correct doctrine" of polygamy beginning at a very young and impressionable age. Gay parents are not known to promote the advantages, virtues and correct doctrine of being gay to their children. There's little, if any, relationship between the two situations IMO.
    The relationship between the two is that there is potential for family strife/pain/hurt.

    I agree with UTEopia that this was a solution without a problem. The hypothetital problem was that kids would be baptized and then be taught that their parents are living contrary to the commandments of the church. It's not hard to imagine how that could be bad for a family.

  3. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    I was born and raised in Utah. I visit often. As an American and devout Mormon who currently lives outside the US, I can authoritatively state: the two cultures are inextricably linked. As well, it could be agued that one could not exist without the other. In fact, that is often what was taught in (LDS) church when I was growing up—that the restoration could only have happened in the United States of America, with a constitution guaranteeing certain inalienable rights. In particular the right to freedom of religion.

    Leo Tolstoy considers Mormonism the American Religion:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-Religion.html

    Additionally, the articles I linked to above contradict your assertions concerning the [great] expansion of LGBT rights in the US. Utah and it's laws that were backed by the LDS church and passed by legislators, a majority of which are active LDS,* is an outlier among what can be considered conservative US states. What's more, the reality is, any rights afforded to LGBT individuals in any state in the US is a fairly recent phenomenon. In contrast, I live in a country where LGBT individuals have had such rights for more than ten years. Including the right to marry:
    American culture has existed and could easily exist without Mormon culture. It does almost everywhere in the U.S. Whether Mormon culture could have existed without American culture is a different question, and I don't really care what the answer is.

    Leo Tolstoy doesn't consider anything. He's dead.

    Um, in the last three years, gays have earned the right to marry nationwide, over the vociferous objection of the LDS Church. LBGT folks also obtained the right to serve openly in the military. While it is true some rearguard actions are attempting to move the clock back, the majority of Americans are far more accepting of LGBT than they were even a few years ago. Again, I applaud the Legislature's passing of that bill, but it doesn't remove the stain of the November, 2015 policy that continues to be a black mark on the church, and continues to treat LGBT as "less than."

  4. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Like many things, the policy was an answer seeking a problem. The policy of the LDS Church has always been that minors need parental permission to receive an LDS Church ordinance. This policy preventing such ordinances to the children of same sex marriages, even when the parents consent, is unnecessary. I guess that, instead of the parents saying no to Johnny's baptism, the parents can now say that the church you want to join won't let you join because of our marriage.
    File this for what it is worth, I personally don't put too much credence in it which is why I never mentioned it. I also agree with the "solution looking for a problem" analysis.

    However, BEFORE the policy a LDS church employee I know told me there was a group of gay parents in CA who were going to LDS churches and asking that their children be blessed. For you ward clerks out there you know you fill out a paper or online form that requires a mother and a father before a blessing. Uncertain what to do resulted in multiple calls to the COB that triggered issues.

    Later when this happened he said he believed it was a response to that.

    Like I said, I don't know and I said to him at the time it seemed a pretty dramatic response to a clerical issue.

    File it for what is worth, which is less than the pixels it is taking.


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  5. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    This is where I have a little bit of an issue. I get what you are saying. I understand the policy vs doctrine. BUT, wasn't the blacks and priesthood taught as doctrine?

    If not, then where do we draw the line when it comes to following the prophet? Do I HAVE to follow the prophet, even if his policies are wrong (according to McConkie, yes). If the answer is yes, then what about my free agency and my ability to receive inspiration from the holy ghost?

    BTW, Joseph Fielding Smith said in "The Way to Perfection", p. 110 that the Church's view on blacks and the priesthood was doctrine, not policy.

    What happens when the doctrine on gay marriage becomes policy after we change it?
    I have vague remembrances of the announcement of the change in policy in 1978, but I was 9 years old at the time. From experience, I cannot say what was and was not taught as doctrine regarding blacks and the priesthood.

    I believe that the president of the LDS Church is a prophet who can receive revelation direct from God for the entire church and even all of humankind. However, I also believe that I have a right to receive personal revelation from God regarding my own life. I do not believe in blind faith. If I have a question or concern about something the prophet said, or a decision or policy made by the church, I believe I can go to God himself -- as opposed to going to Google -- and getting my own revelation. I further believe that If I have a problem with church leadership, it is mine, not theirs, and that I should get on my knees and stay there until I no longer have a problem -- because God has given me the understanding I needed.

    This
    This is what we fail to remember. These are just men, who are doing their best to help us do their best. I'm not so sure they are anything other than that, just like every other church out there. That is why their stances on homosexuality are so hard to hear.

    Are they from god, or are they just an older man's prejudices and fears?

    My heart tells me this isn't from God.
    It seems we focus on one at the exclusion of the other sometimes. They are men. They are inspired. But it is both. They are men and they are inspired. Getting called to church leadership does not make one infallible, but getting called to leadership at least sometimes means that you are not just ordinary. I am a history guy. In addition to military and American history, I also study church history. In addition to reading biographies of generals, admirals and presidents, I read bios of LDS presidents. While these men are still human, they also have tended to be somewhat extraordinary.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  6. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    American culture has existed and could easily exist without Mormon culture. It does almost everywhere in the U.S. Whether Mormon culture could have existed without American culture is a different question, and I don't really care what the answer is.

    Leo Tolstoy doesn't consider anything. He's dead.

    Um, in the last three years, gays have earned the right to marry nationwide, over the vociferous objection of the LDS Church. LBGT folks also obtained the right to serve openly in the military. While it is true some rearguard actions are attempting to move the clock back, the majority of Americans are far more accepting of LGBT than they were even a few years ago. Again, I applaud the Legislature's passing of that bill, but it doesn't remove the stain of the November, 2015 policy that continues to be a black mark on the church, and continues to treat LGBT as "less than."
    Are you purposely being obtuse? Mormon culture exists exclusively because American culture first existed. Mormon culture is born of American culture. In other words, American culture begat Mormon culture. There is no argument. That is a statement of fact, not supposition. Precisely because the Mormon church was founded in America by Americans and not someplace else.

    Um, three years ago? Wow, that's great but quite late as compared to other countries, which begs the question: what the hell is wrong with America ... why didn't Americans grant that right much earlier? And no, according to the links I posted above, a majority of Americans do not support gay marriage. But the LDS church did openly and vociferously support anti-discrimination laws protecting the rights of LGBT individuals. Resulting in the Landmark legislation. That too is a matter of fact.

  7. #697
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Nobody around here seems to really like or understand the policy, but "we don't want to create conflict in families" is a million miles from "gays are worse than rapists!"
    This policy is not about not creating conflict in families. Not in the slightest.

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    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  8. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    If it was about this, they would exclude them from attending church. If they show up, baptized or not, they are going to be taught their parents are evil.
    Don't like what I wrote, so I'm deleting it. Sorry.
    Last edited by sancho; 03-26-2017 at 10:02 AM.

  9. #699
    A Protected Class of Sin -- Mormon Women Stand

    http://www.mormonwomenstand.com/protected-class-of-sin/
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  10. #700
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A Protected Class of Sin -- Mormon Women Stand

    http://www.mormonwomenstand.com/protected-class-of-sin/
    Another example why the path is out of the church.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  11. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A Protected Class of Sin -- Mormon Women Stand

    http://www.mormonwomenstand.com/protected-class-of-sin/
    I think the premise is wrong. I don't think Mormons tend to be more/less accepting of homosexuality than other behaviors they consider sinful.

    I'm not sure what the author is advocating either.

  12. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think the premise is wrong. I don't think Mormons tend to be more/less accepting of homosexuality than other behaviors they consider sinful.

    I'm not sure what the author is advocating either.
    I guess she is speaking to people like me; An active Mormon supportive of same sex marriage rights. I guess, according to her, I should not be supportive of those rights and should actively denounce same sex marriage as sin. But then again, I am supportive of the rights of people to do other things that are "sins." I have my own sins and I cherish them. Why should I seek to deprive others of the same privilege?

  13. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A Protected Class of Sin -- Mormon Women Stand

    http://www.mormonwomenstand.com/protected-class-of-sin/
    It's less a "protected class of sin", and more a humane outreach to people who have long been marginalized.

    Maybe not a "protected class" as much as "we don't talk about that anymore", what happened to the lectures about masturbation? Tying your hand to the bedpost? Besides being an open door for the church being mocked, maybe it's another area where understandings are a little more nuanced, today. (Does masturbation lead to rape? Maybe the opposite.)

    The softening of views toward LGBT and gay marriage has more to do with evolved understanding that it's not simply a behavior... it's an attribute, of people who've really suffered, for something increasingly viewed as not being a personal decision.

    Nothing prompts reflection like suicides of teenagers who've determined they're LGBT. Research suggesting this type of reflection is warranted: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017...teen-suicides/ Basically, in states where gay marriage was first legalized, the rate of teenage suicide dropped. Acceptance / hope are important things, especially to teenagers.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 06-10-2017 at 09:05 AM.

  14. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    A Protected Class of Sin -- Mormon Women Stand

    http://www.mormonwomenstand.com/protected-class-of-sin/
    From the comments:
    If you don't mind, I would like to take a moment to express my feelings in relation to your article.
    I am speaking from the point of view as a mom.
    I have a 28 year old gay son. He came to us after being raised in the gospe. After serving a worthy mission, trying to date girls, attending BYU at the age of 21. So, it hasn't been easy for our family or him.
    I do feel he tried to live the gospel accordingly.
    I've asked myself at times. Why? I don't want to go deeply into this question. But I do know, I love muy son. I would never turn him away. As I know some church members have turned their children away. when finding this out. This has led their child to suicide or to feel even more lost in this life.
    I have a strong testimony of our gospel. My son is nto active in the gospel he grew up in. We have come to an understanding hear on earth. I'll never give up my son. I pray for him each day. This life here on earth comes with trials. Some to which we, may never overcome here on earth. Even as a mom, it's not my place to judge. But, it is my place to love unconditionally, to teach with an understanding, to be an example of my testimony and faith. I just wanted to take this time to express the difference of thoughts one may have on this vital church issue. Especially when its your own son or daughter.
    And the response by the article's author:

    Thank you so much for sharing your wonderful and heartfelt comments. I agree with everything you said and you expressed it beautifully. Much love to you and your family.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  15. #705
    what happened to the lectures about masturbation? Tying your hand to the bedpost? Besides being an open door for the church being mocked, maybe it's another area where understandings are a little more nuanced, today. (Does masturbation lead to rape? Maybe the opposite.)
    Uh . . . What?
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  16. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    Uh . . . What?
    I believe it was Mark E Peterson who taught that it was better to tie your hands to the bedpost while you slept rather than give in to temptation.....

  17. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I believe it was Mark E Peterson who taught that it was better to tie your hands to the bedpost while you slept rather than give in to temptation.....
    Exactly. Thanks.

    There was a school of thought that thinking about sexual things (inappropriately) was nothing short of The Adversary trying to separate you from the Lord, trying to derail your journey to get to heaven (for Catholics) or to the Celestial Kingdom (for Mormons). It naturally followed that when people had same sex attraction, it must have been a result of something that *they* did, either thinking naughty thoughts, or not being completely obedient, or whatever.

    The last manifestation of this line of thinking was Boyd K. Packer's GC talk where he stated that the Lord would never create anyone who is gay... the part of the talk which was stripped out in the official version. (Remembering what I was taught - that BKP's point was stripped out of the official version would be proof-positive that Satan had infiltrated God's church.)

    Measured over a longer period of time, it's notable the author of "A protected class of sin" is not trying to go back to the previous thinking. Her article is not entitled "Homosexuality and Gay marriage - Consequences of Mass Disobedience".

    My larger point is this evolution in thinking is not from any proclamation or revelation, it's from common people putting 2+2 together and listening to the heartfelt stories from others, trying to reconcile what good people are struggling with - after having done all the right things - with what is taught and commonly understood.

    It's from general authorities softening their views, after hearing about the unimaginable struggles of faithful members. "We may not know everything about this issue. There are things to be revealed - maybe after this life - that will help us understand this better. In the meantime, let's try to love everyone (not "tough love", kick-em-out -of-the-house-until-they-change "love") and try to persevere".

    The pace of change is pretty amazing. I stick with my original thesis that in due time issues of homosexuality will seen very differently, like Old Testament laws, or the criticality of skin color, lineage, etc.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 06-11-2017 at 08:04 AM.

  18. #708
    @USS Utah -

    "If you don't mind, I would like to take a moment to express my feelings in relation to your article.
    I am speaking from the point of view as a mom.
    I have a 28 year old gay son. He came to us after being raised in the gospe. After serving a worthy mission, trying to date girls, attending BYU at the age of 21. So, it hasn't been easy for our family or him.
    I do feel he tried to live the gospel accordingly.
    I've asked myself at times. Why? I don't want to go deeply into this question.
    But I do know, I love muy son. I would never turn him away. As I know some church members have turned their children away. when finding this out. This has led their child to suicide or to feel even more lost in this life.
    I have a strong testimony of our gospel. My son is nto active in the gospel he grew up in. We have come to an understanding hear on earth. I'll never give up my son. I pray for him each day. This life here on earth comes with trials. Some to which we, may never overcome here on earth. Even as a mom, it's not my place to judge. But, it is my place to love unconditionally, to teach with an understanding, to be an example of my testimony and faith. I just wanted to take this time to express the difference of thoughts one may have on this vital church issue. Especially when its your own son or daughter."

    This is a great example of the real impact on good people that facilitates changes in understanding.

    In the recent past, the bolded part of this mom's statement would have been considered heresy - or at least a tragic example of somebody who was confused or led astray by a child who had sinned and Satan was now working on the mother to undermine the Lord's work on Earth (or something like that.)

    This mom is trying the best she can, avoiding the temptation to really think about "why". You can't help but be moved by her words.

  19. #709
    I don't understand why self-described Christians of any stripe strain at the gnat of gay marriage when Jesus said nothing about it, and meanwhile there are homeless people to be housed, hungry to be fed, naked to be clothed, etc. Modern day Pharisees.

  20. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    I don't understand why self-described Christians of any stripe strain at the gnat of gay marriage when Jesus said nothing about it, and meanwhile there are homeless people to be housed, hungry to be fed, naked to be clothed, etc. Modern day Pharisees.
    I used to debate the death penalty with Christian conservatives, one of whom claimed that Jesus fully supported the death penalty, because if he didn't, he would have saved the two thieves who were being crucified next to him. The capacity of human beings to rationalize things is unbounded.

  21. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    I don't understand why self-described Christians of any stripe strain at the gnat of gay marriage when Jesus said nothing about it, and meanwhile there are homeless people to be housed, hungry to be fed, naked to be clothed, etc. Modern day Pharisees.
    This reminds me of when someone says "I can't believe Congress is getting involved in ________ when ________ is going on." I don't see why Congress can't talk about both things. There are 24 hours in the day.

    I think it's very possible for a Christian to house people, feed the hungry, clothe the naked - to be a true Christian - and still have opinions on political issues.

  22. #712

  23. #713
    I find it ironic that we believe the prophets are Christ's mouthpiece here in earth...yet, when it comes to social issues, the prophets and apostles act more like scared old men than leaders of the world and are usually the last people to get it right.

  24. #714
    Again, a scared old man trying to hold onto the "glory days". Reminds me of a non-LDS leader we have as well...

  25. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    I find it ironic that we believe the prophets are Christ's mouthpiece here in earth...yet, when it comes to social issues, the prophets and apostles act more like scared old men than leaders of the world and are usually the last people to get it right.
    Get what right? Espousing principles that you have supposedly held sacrosanct for so long, you just can't imagine someone else not coming around to your viewpoint as quickly and easily—effortlessly dismantling the constructs that form the foundation for those "issues." What utter Horse sh**... I guarantee you only came around to seeing things a certain way, maybe in the last year—maybe. The moment you suggest otherwise, is the very moment we know you are lying. You are not ahead of the curve, by virtue of the fact your online handle is Utah ... lol ... irony indeed.
    Last edited by tooblue; 06-11-2017 at 06:22 PM.

  26. #716
    The article about "Miracle of Forgiveness" fading away is striking, for a couple of different reasons. Obviously, the subject matter and how the understanding of sexuality is changing, quickly.

    But Spencer W. Kimball, who was POTC when the priesthood ban was lifted, was also the author of a 1960s New Era article about the Lamanites and how their skin color changed when they're righteous, etc, citing the lighter skin tone of Navajo kids in the Indian Placement Program when they go home, as evidence.

    Hindsight is particularly brutal for LDS leaders on race, and now on sexuality, but I'm impressed by SWK's evolution in understanding, on both issues.

  27. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    The article about "Miracle of Forgiveness" fading away is striking, for a couple of different reasons. Obviously, the subject matter and how the understanding of sexuality is changing, quickly.

    But Spencer W. Kimball, who was POTC when the priesthood ban was lifted, was also the author of a 1960s New Era article about the Lamanites and how their skin color changed when they're righteous, etc, citing the lighter skin tone of Navajo kids in the Indian Placement Program when they go home, as evidence.

    Hindsight is particularly brutal for LDS leaders on race, and now on sexuality, but I'm impressed by SWK's evolution in understanding, on both issues.
    Hindsight is particularly brutal for everyone, especially Americans on those two issues. What's interesting, is while other parts of the country (North Carolina, Texas etc.) are circling the wagons on the issue of sexuality, the state of Utah, as initiated by the LDS church and those "old men," is remarkably progressive.

  28. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Hindsight is particularly brutal for everyone, especially Americans on those two issues. What's interesting, is while other parts of the country (North Carolina, Texas etc.) are circling the wagons on the issue of sexuality, the state of Utah, as initiated by the LDS church and those "old men," is remarkably progressive.
    Great point, and I agree. The Mormon theology's ability to evolve, and particularly the notion of 3 kingdoms that are all better than life on Earth - let alone hell - are compelling parts of the LDS attraction. When I was young we got the fire & brimstone about going to Outer Darkness if you lost whatever inkling of a testimony you may have had, but now I'm told that's no longer taught. Very smart. Dropping the criticality of lineage - Ham, Cain, "House of (whoever)" - making the gospel very personal and open to anyone. There's still a ways to go, obviously and problems... but the church evolves.

    Like the way Joel Olsteen attracts people with a positive message, people just don't respond to scary stories about the mean dragon in the cave, anymore.

  29. #719
    Married. Gay. And Mormon, Part I:

    http://religionnews.com/2017/06/13/m...ay-lds-part-1/

    Married. Gay. And Mormon, Part II:

    http://religionnews.com/2017/06/14/m...mormon-part-2/
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  30. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    I'm always impressed by people who deny themselves the pleasures in life everyone has taken as healthy, or normal. Buddhist monks, Nuns, Catholic priests (the ones who don't provoke giant lawsuits), etc. I'd put these folks in that category. Especially if there are kids involved, I hope they can hold it together. (A wish for all marriages, really.)

    Some gays are very opposed to gay people who "deny" their nature and "overcome this affliction", etc. They view these folks as obstacles to full acceptance of homosexuality. I can see their point, but I see it a bit differently, that there is much more to life than sex and sexuality, and the gays who marry hetero and live their religion are looking at other factors.

    One of my neighbors is a stunning beauty, great mom, wonderful person. Her own mom came out of the closet after raising 5 kids. I met her a few times - crew cut, rode a Harley, leather pants, didn't try to hide it, held hands with her partner in public. She was very much at peace, funny, warm, loved all the grandkids. Saw her at the cancer center with her daughter / my neighbor. Battled to the end, lived life with no regrets. I admired her, too.

    Life is complicated. We definitely don't have all the answers.

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