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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #301
    i hope all of you who live out of state realize this is not just a mormon/non mormon thing. There are many many devout families in our part of the world (SLC; not Provo Sandy or Davis County) who are very very troubled by this and wnet to church on Sunday with a heavy heart. Facebook has exploded with devout members expressing doubt about this policy--and believe it is a mistake.

  2. #302
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    i hope all of you who live out of state realize this is not just a mormon/non mormon thing. There are many many devout families in our part of the world (SLC; not Provo Sandy or Davis County) who are very very troubled by this and wnet to church on Sunday with a heavy heart. Facebook has exploded with devout members expressing doubt about this policy--and believe it is a mistake.
    Yes.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #303
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    You have to wonder what role, if any, all this played in the ruling from the juvenile judge who ordered a foster child be removed from a gay couple this week.


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    I have wondered.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    the difficult thing for me is that I have a teenager who is already struggling with her testimony. When her non-LDS friends talk to her about this she shy's away from the topic.

    At one time she had pride and confidence in being LDS, but that isn't as apparent any longer. When she tried to talk to me about it, I was stumped, I had nothing for her.
    This made me wince, and I'm not even a believer (in the LDS theology, nor do I subscribe to any particular theology).

    I read a thoughtful piece on an apologetics board a few years back by somebody named Brandt Gardner, who gave some advice to the faithful when they encountered information that disrupted their "paradigm":

    "As you encounter new information, adjust your paradigm"

    Think about the thoughts that caused you to arrive at your current belief. Were they erroneous? Were they maybe a bit naïve? (There's nothing wrong with being innocent, not being jaded or cynical.) Were your expectations unrealistic? We're talking about human beings steering the ship here on earth, after all.

    Reality is always more complex and nuanced than idealistic thinking. But absorbing the reality that grey predominates doesn't mean you need to jettison your ideals, your core beliefs.

    Being a teenager is not easy, but hopefully this is a good lesson in the wisdom in looking beyond the headline.

  5. #305
    Ma'ake, I think you hit the bullseye on this situation but perhaps not the way you intended. I don't see this ad people abandoning their values as much as I see it as the LDS church taking a stance that does not seem to support people's own innate sense of morality.

    And as for all you left-handed people, your kids will not be allowed into the club until they turn 18, move out of your homes, get interviewed by the club president, and disavow your lefthanded lifestyle choices. We can't have your left-handedness rub off on anybody else.

  6. #306
    NUF - Great post, I agree.

    The general issue, then SSM provoking a stance, which itself becomes controversial, reveals a significant landscape shift. (Any guesses on how widespread the sentiment is on seeing this as "harsh"? Can't be more than 20%, it seems to me, because most people just focus on their daily lives.)

    Theology often lags social change, but in the time compression and amplified thought expression we have in 2015, how fast can theology adapt?

    The reaction itself will prompt a focused revisiting of scripture, thinking evolves.

    I don't know how quickly the issue of slavery went from being sanctioned by the Bible to being anathema to Biblical teachings, but suffice it to say we're in a similar period of change, and the speed of change (enabled by technology) brings very interesting pressure.

  7. #307
    I agree this undercurrent of discontent is not in any way widespread in the broader Mormon culture. But it is extremely broad in certain populations. In this case the population with broad discontent is the 15-35 age range. Much older populations are likely to be more broadly supportive. In many ways this is a Cronkite moment for the church (LBJ famously quipped about a negative comnentary about the Vietnam war, "If I've lost Walter Cronkite, I have lost America" ). Just how far into the future can an organization exist if its policies are anathema to young people?

    Your comment on theology supporting, then abhorring slavery is salient. Religions long supported slavery, going back many thousands of years, with occasional exceptions. Relevant to American slavery, there was a small abolition movement in churches in England in the early 1700s which led to England banning slave trade. Later in the century and in the early 1800s, this caught on in American churches in the New England states, notably among Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Unitarians. This movement among abolitionist preachers and secular leaders grew and America changed. Today there are scattered pockets of Christian churches that still preach racist teachings, but they are very few and far between. The entire field has flipped, but it started with scattered pockets of resistance.

    Maybe we are just making this too hard. How difficult could it be to just follow the Prophet and ignore the nagging doubts in our moral minds?

    Last edited by NorthwestUteFan; 11-13-2015 at 09:27 AM.

  8. #308
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Baby steps. That at least a alleviates the issue coming up in my ward.
    Last edited by chrisrenrut; 11-13-2015 at 11:11 AM.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  10. #310
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    A common-sense clarification.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Ok, so they used "same-gender marriage or similar relationship." What constitutes a "similar relationship"? Gay people living together? Dating but not living together?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    Ok, so they used "same-gender marriage or similar relationship." What constitutes a "similar relationship"? Gay people living together? Dating but not living together?
    I guess they'll figure that out case by case.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Not surprising. This only undermines the logic of their purported rationale, but who ever expected logic or consistency from this bunch.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  14. #314
    NUF - I found a letter on the 'net penned by 4 Quakers in the year 1688 in Pennsylvania stating their objection to slavery.

    Remarkable position to take, 99 years before slavery was put into the Constitution with the 3/5ths compromise, but also remarkable that it was also roughly 200 years later when the change on Biblical interpretation was settled, more or less.

    There's a big difference in degree between slavery and racism, and I realize my thesis that homosexuals may ultimately achieve full parity within LDS theology is a Grand Canyon sized gulf from tolerating gay marriage in a secular way, but I think it would be more like 20-40 years, instead of 200.

    Kate Kelly got booted, which was probably inevitable given how hard she was pushing, but I would include the notable progress in giving women leadership positions as both a result of increased scrutiny on the topic, perhaps a bit of backpedaling from the indigestion on early polygamy history, but this also nudges forward toward gender (perhaps) becoming a non-factor.

    In 1978, the wording was "all worthy males..."

    Will we see "all worthy members..." by 2028? Who knows, but that would be the final barrier, it seems to me.

  15. #315
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Like many Mormons, I’ve had questions/doubts about some of the toxic LDS issues like the practice of polygamy, the delay of the Priesthood to Blacks, the Mountain Meadow incident, etc. but I could always distance myself from those topics and come to an understanding that was a different time, and not relevant to me today. I could simply hold on to the core concepts of the LDS Gospel and not concern myself with the more controversial fringe topics (I think most LDS Members are like me and can compartmentalize these things we don’t fully understand). I know for some people that isn’t possible, and I can respect that.

    However, this issue is completely different. It is relevant to me today. It’s puzzling and concerning. It’s shaken my faith.

    We all have relatives, friends, co-workers who are homosexual. 99% of those are great family members, good friends and great citizens. In fact I believe many of them go out of their way to be more charitable simply because they feel the need to be more accepted than those of us that are straight. When I worked for AT&T, they put an emphasis on advertising to the gay community. Studies had shown that they were generally more affluent, had more disposable income and were less likely to default on bills. I do see these LDS policy changes as hated-filled and un-Christ like and I still have a bad taste in my mouth from when they were announced. There are all sorts of non-traditional people who make great parents.

    I won’t leave the church because of this policy. I still believe that the core gospel has great principles that makes life fuller and happier and maybe given some time, my heart will soften and maybe by some miracle I gain some further understanding as to why. But for the first time, I am embarrassed and feel ashamed to be part of something I thought strived to eclipse all of that.

    It’s just sad.
    Last edited by Scorcho; 11-13-2015 at 11:42 AM.

  16. #316
    I can't remember where I mentioned this, but the clarification letter is in line with what my Stake President told me when I asked him about it, and what he said they were counseled to do. This is obviously a good step, and makes me wonder if the many stories that popped up of people being sent home from their missions, refused mission service, baptism, etc were instances of a Stake President being off the rails and not asking for further clarification, or if they were largely made up or where people would just assume that was what was going to happen. Probably a little from column a and a little from column b.
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 11-13-2015 at 01:51 PM.

  17. #317
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I can't remember where I mentioned this, but the clarification letter is in line with what my Stake President told me when I asked him about it, and what he said they were counseled to do. This is obviously a good step, and makes me wonder if the many stories that popped up of people being sent home from their missions, refused mission service, baptism, etc where instances of a Stake President being off the rails and not asking for further clarification, or if they were largely made up or where people would just assume that was what was going to happen. Probably a little from column a and a little from column b.
    I hope the great majority are from column B!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #318
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    i realize I'm nitpicking, but how thoughtful of the First Presidency to include that all children can receive Priesthood blessings of healing and spiritual guidance.

    Are you kidding me? Was that really necessary to clarify? Are they also eligible to receive Christmas presents on December 25th?


    Time for me to back away from this topic before I go off on personal PPI's and probing questions about watching the Bravo channel.

  19. #319
    This policy is a cluster, even if there were a dozen clarifications attached to it. At this point it simply needs to be repealed.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  20. #320
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    i realize I'm nitpicking, but how thoughtful of the First Presidency to include that all children can receive Priesthood blessings of healing and spiritual guidance.
    My guess is that they were concerned about people who are not familiar with the church thinking the kids would be spiritual outcasts in every way until they are 18 and could not benefit from anything the church has to offer. After all, the SL Tribune headline -- which the AP picked up -- was that the church was making children of same sex marriage apostates.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    My guess is that they were concerned about people who are not familiar with the church thinking the kids would be spiritual outcasts in every way until they are 18 and could not benefit from anything the church has to offer. After all, the SL Tribune headline -- which the AP picked up -- was that the church was making children of same sex marriage apostates.
    You are not accusing the Trib of misrepresenting something are you, cause that would never happen............

    In all seriousness, the winners in all of this are Peggy Fletcher-Hack and Pat Bagley. Generally, they have to put some effort into stirring the pot. This situation has given them a ton of free material, which they have capitalized on.

  22. #322
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Understanding the Handbook

    Just out today. Fire away.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    This policy is a cluster, even if there were a dozen clarifications attached to it. At this point it simply needs to be repealed.
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Understanding the Handbook


    Just out today. Fire away.

    2 down. 10 more to go?
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  24. #324
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Understanding the Handbook


    Just out today. Fire away.
    i have no issue with that. It is clear, understandable and well written.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I obviously agree, but I'm not sure how this is related to the handbook thing. The Church is saying that gay couples are living in sin, not that they are unfit to be parents. They are effectively saying "you should raise your kids without the distraction of a church that is counter to your relationship. If you understand how we feel about same sex marriage and still want your kid to be baptized, come talk to us about it."
    To bottom line it (which is a horrible pun), the LDS Church is extremely afraid of homosexuality and everything that comes with it. I do believe they are concerned with LDS Millennials being more open and accepting to gay lifestyles.

    What was a half-court press with Prop-8 appears to have expanded to a ¾ court press with these new guidelines

  26. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    You are not accusing the Trib of misrepresenting something are you, cause that would never happen............

    In all seriousness, the winners in all of this are Peggy Fletcher-Hack and Pat Bagley. Generally, they have to put some effort into stirring the pot. This situation has given them a ton of free material, which they have capitalized on.
    A lesser known fact is that Peggy Fletcher-Stack is LDS, lives in my brother's stake.

  27. #327
    I, for one, wish that the LDS church would have taken the opposite approach and decided to aggressively proselytize children in SSM households and baptized/indoctrinated them despite their parents wishes.

  28. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    I, for one, wish that the LDS church would have taken the opposite approach and decided to aggressively proselytize children in SSM households and baptized/indoctrinated them despite their parents wishes.
    I'll see you your proselytizing the children and raise you proselytizing the parents and offering them temple marriage. Wouldn't that be something to celebrate.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  29. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Blue - last week you told us that we don't understand diversity as well as you, and now we don't understand millennials. Maybe some other people around here have also had life experience?

    Anyway, I read this last night, and the term "vindictive protectiveness" reminded me of your post:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...n-mind/399356/
    You're right. My comments were condescending. I apologize. I consider it a great blessing to have lived in Wards and Stakes where you can look out from the pulpit on congregations with members from more than thirty different nations. My primary intent was agree with Ma'ake that it changes the way you worship and how you live the gospel. I also have immediate family who are black. That changes the very nature of dinner conversations at each frequent family gathering. It's a great blessing in mine and my family's life and I should be more careful not to diminish it with my tone.

    In regards to millennials, my only intent was to dispel the myth that they are any kind of a "great hope." I just don't see it. On the contrary, I am often left disillusioned by my daily experiences. An anecdote from today in particular can highlight my concerns. In my role, teaching art and design at a community college, I have the responsibility to teach principles of narrative as it relates to interactive, multimedia and Web design. I am specifically charged with creating outlines for large, comprehensive integrated media projects. This past summer I connected with researchers at a local natural history museum to augment the quality of the content in our students project work. It's exciting and interesting. The struggle I face though is the general ignorance and limited awareness of my students.

    To be succinct, I have researched and created an outline for the design and development of a gesture controlled app, which can be used on a tv connected to an xbox kinect type of device. Beyond teaching principles of interactive narratives, conceptualizing and writing the project outline, my secondary role is to teach the students how to make the app beautiful and improve the user experience through good design. With this particular project I have chosen to use a classic moral tale to introduce and tell a modern moral tale about climate change. We are adapting a version of one of Aesop's fables.

    The first thing I did today was ask students to explain what a 'moral tale' is. Not a single student could. In fact they could not even define or tell me what the word 'moral' means. I asked them to look it up (google it). They did, but still struggled to understand the explanation and definition. My class is three hours long. I spent most of it simply defining, explaining, trying desperately to convey the potential impact of the moral tale. Exacerbating the issue, not a single one has ever heard of Aesop, nor have they heard or read a single fable. It was a long day.

    My students are not stupid. Many are talented, and willing to work hard, though they require a lot of hand-holding—they are millennials. This class is offered in their final year of study. A few have attended a couple of years of University but left to attend college for more practical hands-on technical skills. For more than a few, this will not be the last or only program they enroll in. They will get a couple of diploma's, and some will return to University. They are coddled and do not want to grow up, or leave school. It reminds me of the scripture:

    2 Timothy 3:7 ... Ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-13-2015 at 11:00 PM.

  30. #330
    Millennials act and think exactly like computers. I am being dead serious. Set them to a task and they can do it, but they need instruction on everything. Once I understood that about them it was a lot easier to work with them.


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