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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I would also agree social media has changed things. When I grew up home was a safe haven. Those who wanted to try and make me miserable couldn't do that at my house. With social media there is no safe haven as long as that phone is in a kids hand. Technology is awesome and awful at the same time.
    This is really frightening to a father of young kids. I was extremely relieved a week ago when talking to my son about an experience at basketball camp. He was telling us about getting picked on by another kid at the camp. We asked him about it, and he said "I just ignore him. I think he doesn't really get it."

    I remember reading stuff about social media having a depressing effect in people who see wonderful families, vacations, moments, etc in the posts of others. I could imagine feeling that as a teenager. I remember sometimes being depressed as a teenager when I thought everyone else was out killing life while I was not.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    At the risk of derailing the thread, I agree with both of you for most cases.
    In some cases, though, I think it is a supremely rational act. The freedom to choose when & where to end one's life is an important right to me (provided one is making a deliberate decision rather than an impulsive act).

    The movement to allow terminally ill or permanently (severely) disabled people to end their lives on their own terms is gaining momentum.
    I agree. I think people should be able to make the rational decision to end their life humanely instead of relying on the violent means most use now.

  3. #423
    For more than fifteen years I have taught at a vocational institution. Primarily, I educate design students, focused on Web and interactive technologies. I write a lot of curriculum, coming up with novel ways to teach principles of good user interface and user experience design. A lot has changed since I first began teaching, but nothing has changed more than the student’s expectations, incompressible apprehensions and the knowledge base they bring with them to the classroom. I not so affectionately refer to the current crop of students as the Lego Kit generation. Unless you provide them with a kit that includes highly detailed illustrations, explicit step-by-step instructions, and spend a good deal of time mentoring (holding their hand) and regularly affirming their efforts, they fall apart when faced with a challenge.

    Over the past three years, I have assigned a particular project that highlights the peculiarities of the current dynamic. The project involves the development of an app, based on a customizable app building template (aka, a Lego Kit). The project on the whole is complex in the way it forces students to apply basic programming principles, grapple with interface and user design issues and the need to manage interactive narratives. In addition to all of the above, the students are expected to develop the illustrative, photographic and video content for the app themselves. This is a joint project between two courses—my design course and an applied scripting and technology course. It’s a comprehensive effort and can be considered a capstone project in their final semester.

    Owing to the limited time-frames of semester based teaching and learning, and despite the fact we are supplying them the Kit, it’s too much to also ask the students to come up with a compelling subject matter to build content for (five or so years ago, that wasn’t the case). So, while another faculty member, who teaches the applied class has built and provided them with the customizable app template to work with, I do the research and provide them a subject matter to work with. It’s important the subject matter be interesting, socially relevant and not encourage the students to run afoul of copyright. Because the app, in potential commercial form, could be used to power an information kiosk in a museum or science center, I focus on content that is historical and geared towards youth or children.

    In particular, I love Aesop’s fables. They are short, easy to grasp, interpret and adapt to these types of applications. What’s more, you can easily build upon the moral of the story to inform an audience about a contemporary issue such as, say, climate change or bio diversity. Which is made easier by the fact the fables mostly involve interactions between animals: foxes, hares and tortoises etc. In very basic terms, they are simply creating an interactive story book, that is installed on a large touchscreen computer. The fable, with cute animals and a simple moral lesson is just a hook … to get the user to watch loosely related infographic videos and visualized data about the shrinking polar ice caps and mass species extinction.

    Having been online since they popped out of the womb, the students mostly get it—what they are supposed to do. The project makes sense. However, I’ve observed and made note of a phenomenon, while assigning and discussing the project outline with my students, that is troubling. Beyond the fact we are supplying the students with a template/kit, accompanied by a good deal of hand-holding, which is a frustrating issue all on its own. The students struggle mightily to discern the moral of the assigned fable they are expected to adapt.

    For example, I often use “The Fox and The Crow” as the story they are expected to illustrate, animate and make interactive. Over the past three years, when I ask the class if they have heard of Aesop, I have not had one student answer in the affirmative. Next, I ask them if they know what a Fable is, or if they know a Fable can be defined as a moral tale? Again, not a single student in three years has answered yes, or can tell me what I mean when I say, “a Fable can be defined as a moral tale.” In follow up, I ask the students to define morality for me. Not a single student has been able to, so I eventually allow them to google it. We then read the definition aloud and discuss how morality can be conveyed in a story, thus rendering that story a ‘moral tale’ aka a ‘Fable.’ Lastly, we then read the “The Fox and The Crow.” After reading it a second time to themselves, I let the students stew on it before asking them what the moral of the The Fox and The Crow is.

    Over the past three years, the overwhelmingly unanimous answer has been (and I’m paraphrasing): “If I’m crafty, like a fox, I can trick people into giving me something valuable that they didn’t want to give up.” In a sense, that’s not a wrong, or perhaps even a bad answer, depending upon your perspective (and whether or not you're a lawyer). It’s telling though, and quite sad when you really think about it. First, it demonstrates to me they have little or no historical frame of reference for what can be considered moral teaching and learning, except what they glean from popular culture and the media. Moreover, not only can they not discern the moral of the Fable, but they can’t define morality, except in their own, arguable skewed, terms. That's in part what renders' this generation vulnerable and disappointed.

    Of course, this is just a foolishly long anecdote for a message board. I started writing it while watching the soccer match. Allez les bleus! And go Cougars.
    Last edited by tooblue; 07-07-2016 at 08:50 PM.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Over the past three years, when I ask the class if they have heard of Aesop, I have not had one student answer in the affirmative. Next, I ask them if they know what a Fable is, or if they know a Fable can be defined as a moral tale? Again, not a single student in three years has answered yes
    Oh, Canada. So cute.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    For more than fifteen years I have taught at a vocational institution. Primarily, I educate design students, focused on Web and interactive technologies. I write a lot of curriculum, coming up with novel ways to teach principles of good user interface and user experience design. A lot has changed since I first began teaching, but nothing has changed more than the student’s expectations, incompressible apprehensions and the knowledge base they bring with them to the classroom. I not so affectionately refer to the current crop of students as the Lego Kit generation. Unless you provide them with a kit that includes highly detailed illustrations, explicit step-by-step instructions, and spend a good deal of time mentoring (holding their hand) and regularly affirming their efforts, they fall apart when faced with a challenge.

    Over the past three years, I have assigned a particular project that highlights the peculiarities of the current dynamic. The project involves the development of an app, based on a customizable app building template (aka, a Lego Kit). The project on the whole is complex in the way it forces students to apply basic programming principles, grapple with interface and user design issues and the need to manage interactive narratives. In addition to all of the above, the students are expected to develop the illustrative, photographic and video content for the app themselves. This is a joint project between two courses—my design course and an applied scripting and technology course. It’s a comprehensive effort and can be considered a capstone project in their final semester.

    Owing to the limited time-frames of semester based teaching and learning, and despite the fact we are supplying them the Kit, it’s too much to also ask the students to come up with a compelling subject matter to build content for (five or so years ago, that wasn’t the case). So, while another faculty member, who teaches the applied class has built and provided them with the customizable app template to work with, I do the research and provide them a subject matter to work with. It’s important the subject matter be interesting, socially relevant and not encourage the students to run afoul of copyright. Because the app, in potential commercial form, could be used to power an information kiosk in a museum or science center, I focus on content that is historical and geared towards youth or children.

    In particular, I love Aesop’s fables. They are short, easy to grasp, interpret and adapt to these types of applications. What’s more, you can easily build upon the moral of the story to inform an audience about a contemporary issue such as, say, climate change or bio diversity. Which is made easier by the fact the fables mostly involve interactions between animals: foxes, hares and tortoises etc. In very basic terms, they are simply creating an interactive story book, that is installed on a large touchscreen computer. The fable, with cute animals and a simple moral lesson is just a hook … to get the user to watch loosely related infographic videos and visualized data about the shrinking polar ice caps and mass species extinction.

    Having been online since they popped out of the womb, the students mostly get it—what they are supposed to do. The project makes sense. However, I’ve observed and made note of a phenomenon, while assigning and discussing the project outline with my students, that is troubling. Beyond the fact we are supplying the students with a template/kit, accompanied by a good deal of hand-holding, which is a frustrating issue all on its own. The students struggle mightily to discern the moral of the assigned fable they are expected to adapt.

    For example, I often use “The Fox and The Crow” as the story they are expected to illustrate, animate and make interactive. Over the past three years, when I ask the class if they have heard of Aesop, I have not had one student answer in the affirmative. Next, I ask them if they know what a Fable is, or if they know a Fable can be defined as a moral tale? Again, not a single student in three years has answered yes, or can tell me what I mean when I say, “a Fable can be defined as a moral tale.” In follow up, I ask the students to define morality for me. Not a single student has been able to, so I eventually allow them to google it. We then read the definition aloud and discuss how morality can be conveyed in a story, thus rendering that story a ‘moral tale’ aka a ‘Fable.’ Lastly, we then read the “The Fox and The Crow.” After reading it a second time to themselves, I let the students stew on it before asking them what the moral of the The Fox and The Crow is.

    Over the past three years, the overwhelmingly unanimous answer has been (and I’m paraphrasing): “If I’m crafty, like a fox, I can trick people into giving me something valuable that they didn’t want to give up.” In a sense, that’s not a wrong, or perhaps even a bad answer, depending upon your perspective (and whether or not you're a lawyer). It’s telling though, and quite sad when you really think about it. First, it demonstrates to me they have little or no historical frame of reference for what can be considered moral teaching and learning, except what they glean from popular culture and the media. Moreover, not only can they not discern the moral of the Fable, but they can’t define morality, except in their own, arguable skewed, terms. That's in part what renders' this generation vulnerable and disappointed.

    Of course, this is just a foolishly long anecdote for a message board. I started writing it while watching the soccer match. Allez les bleus! And go Cougars.
    My experience is largely the same. "Here is the problem now how will you tackle it..." Used to be s great way to teach, now most struggle with it. If you give specific instructions on how to do if they do it well. I've observed that young people act an awful lot like a computer. Execute commands and wait for the next instructions.

    However there are some kids who are completely amazing the other way and can run circles around me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Oh, Canada. So cute.


  7. #427
    Tooblue shows us the equivalent of "scoreboard" for every country in the world.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    For more than fifteen years I have taught at a vocational institution. Primarily, I educate design students, focused on Web and interactive technologies. I write a lot of curriculum, coming up with novel ways to teach principles of good user interface and user experience design. A lot has changed since I first began teaching, but nothing has changed more than the student’s expectations, incompressible apprehensions and the knowledge base they bring with them to the classroom. I not so affectionately refer to the current crop of students as the Lego Kit generation. Unless you provide them with a kit that includes highly detailed illustrations, explicit step-by-step instructions, and spend a good deal of time mentoring (holding their hand) and regularly affirming their efforts, they fall apart when faced with a challenge.

    Over the past three years, I have assigned a particular project that highlights the peculiarities of the current dynamic. The project involves the development of an app, based on a customizable app building template (aka, a Lego Kit). The project on the whole is complex in the way it forces students to apply basic programming principles, grapple with interface and user design issues and the need to manage interactive narratives. In addition to all of the above, the students are expected to develop the illustrative, photographic and video content for the app themselves. This is a joint project between two courses—my design course and an applied scripting and technology course. It’s a comprehensive effort and can be considered a capstone project in their final semester.

    Owing to the limited time-frames of semester based teaching and learning, and despite the fact we are supplying them the Kit, it’s too much to also ask the students to come up with a compelling subject matter to build content for (five or so years ago, that wasn’t the case). So, while another faculty member, who teaches the applied class has built and provided them with the customizable app template to work with, I do the research and provide them a subject matter to work with. It’s important the subject matter be interesting, socially relevant and not encourage the students to run afoul of copyright. Because the app, in potential commercial form, could be used to power an information kiosk in a museum or science center, I focus on content that is historical and geared towards youth or children.

    In particular, I love Aesop’s fables. They are short, easy to grasp, interpret and adapt to these types of applications. What’s more, you can easily build upon the moral of the story to inform an audience about a contemporary issue such as, say, climate change or bio diversity. Which is made easier by the fact the fables mostly involve interactions between animals: foxes, hares and tortoises etc. In very basic terms, they are simply creating an interactive story book, that is installed on a large touchscreen computer. The fable, with cute animals and a simple moral lesson is just a hook … to get the user to watch loosely related infographic videos and visualized data about the shrinking polar ice caps and mass species extinction.

    Having been online since they popped out of the womb, the students mostly get it—what they are supposed to do. The project makes sense. However, I’ve observed and made note of a phenomenon, while assigning and discussing the project outline with my students, that is troubling. Beyond the fact we are supplying the students with a template/kit, accompanied by a good deal of hand-holding, which is a frustrating issue all on its own. The students struggle mightily to discern the moral of the assigned fable they are expected to adapt.

    For example, I often use “The Fox and The Crow” as the story they are expected to illustrate, animate and make interactive. Over the past three years, when I ask the class if they have heard of Aesop, I have not had one student answer in the affirmative. Next, I ask them if they know what a Fable is, or if they know a Fable can be defined as a moral tale? Again, not a single student in three years has answered yes, or can tell me what I mean when I say, “a Fable can be defined as a moral tale.” In follow up, I ask the students to define morality for me. Not a single student has been able to, so I eventually allow them to google it. We then read the definition aloud and discuss how morality can be conveyed in a story, thus rendering that story a ‘moral tale’ aka a ‘Fable.’ Lastly, we then read the “The Fox and The Crow.” After reading it a second time to themselves, I let the students stew on it before asking them what the moral of the The Fox and The Crow is.

    Over the past three years, the overwhelmingly unanimous answer has been (and I’m paraphrasing): “If I’m crafty, like a fox, I can trick people into giving me something valuable that they didn’t want to give up.” In a sense, that’s not a wrong, or perhaps even a bad answer, depending upon your perspective (and whether or not you're a lawyer). It’s telling though, and quite sad when you really think about it. First, it demonstrates to me they have little or no historical frame of reference for what can be considered moral teaching and learning, except what they glean from popular culture and the media. Moreover, not only can they not discern the moral of the Fable, but they can’t define morality, except in their own, arguable skewed, terms. That's in part what renders' this generation vulnerable and disappointed.

    Of course, this is just a foolishly long anecdote for a message board. I started writing it while watching the soccer match. Allez les bleus! And go Cougars.
    It was an interesting perspective until you turned it into a lament about religion's irrelevance any more.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    It was an interesting perspective until you turned it into a lament about religion's irrelevance any more.
    lol ... you really are a one trick pony. I didn't mention religion. It's a shame (but absolutely not surprising) you choose to. Considering you of all people, as champion of the enlightenment and proponent of reason over tradition, are not lamenting and in turn commenting on the failure of modernity and it's systems of indoctrination to teach morality sans the influence of faith based institutions. Which is your wish—a wish that has been granted. So, let me do it for you: if the basics of morality, as taught in Aesop's fables, aren't and thusly can't be taught, where do future generations learn about morality? Watching Super Hero movies, I guess.
    Last edited by tooblue; 07-08-2016 at 01:23 PM.

  10. #430
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Saw this and couldn't resist throwing it in here. :stirpot:

    A rational nation ruled by science would be a terrible idea


    Imagine a future society in which everything is perfectly logical. What could go wrong?

    “Scientism” is the belief that all we need to solve the world’s problems is – you guessed it – science. People sometimes use the phrase “rational thinking”, but it amounts to the same thing. If only people would drop religion and all their other prejudices, we could use logic to fix everything.

    Last week, US astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson offered up the perfect example of scientism when he proposed the country of Rationalia, in which “all policy shall be based on the weight of evidence”.


    Tyson is a very smart man, but this is not a smart idea. It is even, we might say, unreasonable and without sufficient evidence. Of course, imagining a society in which everyone behaves logically sounds appealing. But employing logic to consider the concept reveals that there could be no such thing....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    lol ... you really are a one trick pony. I didn't mention religion. It's a shame (but absolutely not surprising) you choose to. Considering you of all people, as champion of the enlightenment and proponent of reason over tradition, are not lamenting and in turn commenting on the failure of modernity and it's systems of indoctrination to teach morality sans the influence of faith based institutions. Which is your wish—a wish that has been granted. So, let me do it for you: if the basics of morality, as taught in Aesop's fables, aren't and thusly can't be taught, where do future generations learn about morality? Watching Super Hero movies, I guess.
    You're the one trick pony, and I was reacting to your codes. You've confirmed the subtext that I discerned.

    I'm not going to debate the thesis of your essay, because I don't debate you; I chose my words carefully in saying that it was an interesting perspective to a point. Suffice to say I have a more optimistic and positive view of our young people than you do--but I have limited experience with Canadians, and sometimes I do suspect that Canada lacks a moral backbone.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Saw this and couldn't resist throwing it in here. :stirpot:

    A rational nation ruled by science would be a terrible idea
    This is a tiresome straw man from the one trick pony religious apologists. Nobody is advocating this. Here is my response.

    https://www.amazon.com/Response-Terr.../dp/B01999RMQC

    I'd be happy to send you a free copy or a pdf.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    This is a tiresome straw man from the one trick pony religious apologists. Nobody is advocating this. Here is my response.

    https://www.amazon.com/Response-Terr.../dp/B01999RMQC

    I'd be happy to send you a free copy or a pdf.
    Nobody except Neil deGrasse Tyson... but yes, carry on. I will admit as I thought about it I came to the conclusion that he found a method of governance even more inefficient than Democracy.

  14. #434
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I was happy to see a young woman who just came out a few weeks previously (after she served a mission) come to church to hear her sister speak. People literally lined up to hug her after sacrament meeting and let her know she was loved and they cared about her just as they always did. I hope every LDS congregation can do the same.
    I may be too jaded and I recognize that. I happy to hear that happened for this woman. However, how would the reaction have been if the she came to see her sister speak and brought her girlfriend with her? I think people do okay showing love to those who are homosexual that are celibate and still claim association with the church, not so much for those that decide that they want to pursue love and sex. I sincerely doubt she would have been getting hugs with her girlfriend there with her.

    I have the same hope as you, I also don't think that with the current stance of the church that the hope can be fulfilled. There isn't a place for LGBTQ individuals in the church. There just isn't.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    You're the one trick pony, and I was reacting to your codes. You've confirmed the subtext that I discerned.

    I'm not going to debate the thesis of your essay, because I don't debate you; I chose my words carefully in saying that it was an interesting perspective to a point. Suffice to say I have a more optimistic and positive view of our young people than you do--but I have limited experience with Canadians, and sometimes I do suspect that Canada lacks a moral backbone.
    Look, you posted an interesting, though unduly verbose, New Yorker article. My anecdote is offered purely as a follow up contribution to that vein of the conversation going on in this thread. There is no debate. I'm in complete agreement with you that the tenets of the enlightenment in their modern application have failed. For that's one conclusion that can be discerned from your contribution (the linked article), which in part encouraged my contribution (a personal anecdote).

    That you find my anecdote threatening in any way is curious. Your ad hominem attack though is absurd for many reasons, but primarily due to your own admission that you are speaking from a position of ignorance. That's Donald Trump style dangerous. You too are obviously vulnerable and disappointed. I'm sorry my post triggered such an unfriendly response.

  16. #436
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    This is a tiresome straw man from the one trick pony religious apologists. Nobody is advocating this. Here is my response.

    https://www.amazon.com/Response-Terr.../dp/B01999RMQC

    I'd be happy to send you a free copy or a pdf.
    You..wrote...a...book...refuting the Givens' book....

    Wow.

    I think we should issue you a white shirt (or maybe a black one) and a nametag now that you are publicly proselytizing people to either leave the church or not to return to it if they've left already. "Anti-Elder Seattle Ute." Has a nice ring to it. You and John Dehlin need to get together. Is he still doing his podcasts? You'd be a great guest.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You..wrote...a...book...refuting the Givens' book....

    Wow.

    I think we should issue you a white shirt (or maybe a black one) and a nametag now that you are publicly proselytizing people to either leave the church or not to return to it if they've left already. "Anti-Elder Seattle Ute." Has a nice ring to it. You and John Dehlin need to get together. Is he still doing his podcasts? You'd be a great guest.
    I didn't know the Givenses book was doctrine. I guess it is for a certain demographic of Mormonism.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  18. #438
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I didn't know the Givenses book was doctrine. I guess it is for a certain demographic of Mormonism.
    Maybe you're just a counter-apologist. That has kind of a semi-scholarly, official-sounding ring to it. Dehlin will love you on his show. Go here:

    http://www.mormonstories.org/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    One death is too many, simply put. It is tragic if one's home life and church life is such that it creates enough pressure that anyone would want to take their life.

    As for the spike there have been some unverified numbers flying around. At one time they were reporting 30+ LGBT/LDS teen suicides at the end of the year in Utah. The main problem is the state only reported 10 suicides total, so it is hard to know what numbers are right. But we have a responsibility to treat it like an epidemic and we need to think that way individually. Each one of us can let people we know in these situation know that they are loved and wanted and valued and needed. I was happy to see a young woman who just came out a few weeks previously (after she served a mission) come to church to hear her sister speak. People literally lined up to hug her after sacrament meeting and let her know she was loved and they cared about her just as they always did. I hope every LDS congregation can do the same.
    An old high school friend recently lost her son to suicide. His family did everything they could to give love and show acceptance. There were others in the neighborhood and community that also gave love and support. And yet.

    Yes, we must all give love and support, but, at least in some cases, it appears that this is not enough. Ultimately, and not just with suicides in the LGBT community but with anyone who has or is contemplating suicide, a lot still rests on the individual.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I may be too jaded and I recognize that. I happy to hear that happened for this woman. However, how would the reaction have been if the she came to see her sister speak and brought her girlfriend with her? I think people do okay showing love to those who are homosexual that are celibate and still claim association with the church, not so much for those that decide that they want to pursue love and sex. I sincerely doubt she would have been getting hugs with her girlfriend there with her.

    I have the same hope as you, I also don't think that with the current stance of the church that the hope can be fulfilled. There isn't a place for LGBTQ individuals in the church. There just isn't.
    Well you don't know the back story or the story of her family. I won't get into because it is her story to tell and time will tell how it all shakes out, but I'll just tell you that you are wrong about how people would react. We all know she has a partner and I've talked to a number of people who have met her and everyone has been positive. I think you've just spent too much time in Utah county and my observation is people have a narrative that they need to fill.

    Sad because it doesn't fix things, it just throws up more barriers. It convinces people that the love that was shown them was fake and there is no hope for them. It just isn't true.

    It takes time, it takes persistence and it takes exposure, understanding and empathy. Why try to fight against that?


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  21. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Nobody except Neil deGrasse Tyson... but yes, carry on. I will admit as I thought about it I came to the conclusion that he found a method of governance even more inefficient than Democracy.
    That's not true. Tyson advocates against irratinonal or unreasonable belief--against nonsense. But he talks all the time about the kind of human imagination, intuition, emotional force, and willpower that brings about what was thought to be impossible or was wholly unexpected, and mystery, and instances of dazzling clarity and understanding intrinsic to being human that the Givenses and their ilk would have you believe people like Tyson reject. The Givenses are educated enough and familiar enough with academic and intellectual life to know better; it's what they do. But their characterization of secular society is stupidly binary; they're just trying to impart relevancy to Mormonism in this age by suggesting that it provides unique access to the sublime metaphysical. I think mostly they're sentimental and they love their Mormon people.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 07-08-2016 at 10:42 PM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  22. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    That's not true. Tyson advocates against irratinonal or unreasonable belief--against nonsense. But he talks all the time about the kind of human imagination, intuition, emotional force, and willpower that brings about what was thought to be impossible or was wholly unexpected, and mystery, and instances of dazzling clarity and understanding intrinsic to being human
    I love Tyson. He came to town last year, and I was able to flip two free tickets to some pop science loving sap for $150. Thanks Neil!

  23. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I love Tyson. He came to town last year, and I was able to flip two free tickets to some pop science loving sap for $150. Thanks Neil!
    I'd rather pay $75 to see Tyson (which doesn't seem that outrageous, actually) than sit in General Conference for free. I'll sit in GC for my hourly rate.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  24. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I'd rather pay $75 to see Tyson (which doesn't seem that outrageous, actually)
    Well, there's one born every minute...

  25. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    That's not true. Tyson advocates against irratinonal or unreasonable belief--against nonsense. But he talks all the time about the kind of human imagination, intuition, emotional force, and willpower that brings about what was thought to be impossible or was wholly unexpected, and mystery, and instances of dazzling clarity and understanding intrinsic to being human that the Givenses and their ilk would have you believe people like Tyson reject. The Givenses are educated enough and familiar enough with academic and intellectual life to know better; it's what they do. But their characterization of secular society is stupidly binary; they're just trying to impart relevancy to Mormonism in this age by suggesting that it provides unique access to the sublime metaphysical. I think mostly they're sentimental and they love their Mormon people.
    Wait, what are we arguing? It keeps shifting to different things. You said in response to LA's article about Tyson's rational and evidence based government, that nobody was advocating for that. I quipped that Tyson was.

    Now it feels like a shoehorned promotion for your book.


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  26. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Wait, what are we arguing? It keeps shifting to different things. You said in response to LA's article about Tyson's rational and evidence based government, that nobody was advocating for that. I quipped that Tyson was.

    Now it feels like a shoehorned promotion for your book.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The article mischaracterized Tyson's views.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  27. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Well, there's one born every minute...
    Right. You must have paid more for the tickets than you sold them. They would cost more than that in Seattle.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  28. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Right. You must have paid more for the tickets than you sold them. They would cost more than that in Seattle.
    Having successfully avoided the Givens as a whole and not seeing them mentioned in the subject article I guess I wasn't understanding what it had to do with anything.

    I like Tyson and you are right that he does celebrate human ingenuity. My point in it being more inefficient than democracy is just that rational thinking is more often than not naturally slow.

    For example, let's take gay marriage. As an enlightened and rational society we might say, "If two people love each other, who are we to stand in the way, let them get married." And then we'd all celebrate. But then a rational person might step up and say, "Wait a minute, this is relatively new and truthfully we don't know either way whether this might have a long term effect on children who for millennia have been patented by a male and a female. Further study is required before we make a decision as a society..." and so we might then still be without this right... Not a perfect example but hopefully you get my (only) point.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. #449

    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Having successfully avoided the Givens as a whole and not seeing them mentioned in the subject article I guess I wasn't understanding what it had to do with anything.

    I like Tyson and you are right that he does celebrate human ingenuity. My point in it being more inefficient than democracy is just that rational thinking is more often than not naturally slow.

    For example, let's take gay marriage. As an enlightened and rational society we might say, "If two people love each other, who are we to stand in the way, let them get married." And then we'd all celebrate. But then a rational person might step up and say, "Wait a minute, this is relatively new and truthfully we don't know either way whether this might have a long term effect on children who for millennia have been patented by a male and a female. Further study is required before we make a decision as a society..." and so we might then still be without this right... Not a perfect example but hopefully you get my (only) point.





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Got it. My only point about the Givenses is that they turn their defense of religion into a defense of human emotion, inspiration, mystery, etc. and nobody is banishing those things. Ironically, their sources are mostly romantic poets, novelists, and philosophers, who were not religious, or not beholden to any sect. This article reminded me of their approach.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 07-09-2016 at 10:06 AM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  30. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Got it. My only point about the Givenses is that they turn their defense of religion into a defense of human emotion, inspiration, mystery, etc. and nobody is banishing those things. Ironically, their sources are mostly romantic poets, novelists, and philosophers, who were not religious, or not beholden to any sect. This article reminded me of their approach.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You might be the only person here who has read the givenses?

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