Not about LDS, but a very interesting take by a Baptist ethicist:
http://religionnews.com/2016/08/22/o...-disappearing/
Hint: He's not supporting the traditional Baptist view.
Not about LDS, but a very interesting take by a Baptist ethicist:
http://religionnews.com/2016/08/22/o...-disappearing/
Hint: He's not supporting the traditional Baptist view.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
That's incredibly generous.Originally Posted by LA Ute
My my main issue with how most people seem to approach these kinds of debates is that they come from the basic premise that being right makes a person a righteous person deserving of good fortune and being wrong makes somebody a bad person deserving of punitive treatment.
On this particular topic, I'm right and you're absolutely wrong, but that doesn't mean that I'm not sort of an asshole and that I deserve a prize for being right or that you're somehow a bad person who deserves some form of truly punitive retribution.
But more importantly, this lunch invite is a great premise for a sitcom on the CW network.
Premise: Noted social crusader and gay marriage opponent (played by David Hyde Pierce aka Nyles on Frasier) invites anonymous gay rights blogger to lunch. Gay rights blogger (played by Dennis Miller) is a prick who is always on the verge of being a good guy, but when faced with the opportunity to do good does the reverse. Blogger creates a grinder profile for crusader and effectively sets crusader up on a gay blind date for the lunch meeting with young stud (played by new fresh faced actor- a cross between Taylor Lautner and young Tony Danza).
Young stud in hearing an earnest discussion on activists's position of not acting on gay impulses interprets this as an invitation for a non-physical relationship from an internally conflicted closeted gay individual. What ensues is either a close friendship or a decidedly non-torrid spring winter gay romance. It depends on...
"Who You Ask"... Premiering at 9PM Friday's on the CW.
I think you are onto something.
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Mormon Women Stand are horrible people and a great example why the answer to this question is there is no place for homosexuals in the LDS church.
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So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
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Nice find, LA.
Civil Rights over time leads to altered views on religious liberty, and other sacrosanct values. The Civil Rights Act forcing accommodation eventually morphed from an intrusion on property rights to being more about basic decency.
This author is playing a crucial role: a non-hostile voice helping traditional values people navigate change. You can see change occurring, led by people much closer to the situation, eg, parents of gays. In 20 years, Leviticus will be widely seen like the prohibition on wearing two types of fabric.
While Mormonism is more agile, theologically, because of modern day revelation, the hierarchical structure inhibits grass roots changes in interpretations of scripture, current policy, etc. Baptist/protestant churches can change affiliations, or just go Indy.
The Church has an easy way to change and they've done it before:
Claim revelation, throw the old leaders under the bus and talk about how inspired they are even though the heathens figured out the correct way years and years before.
That's no way for an AP to talk!
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A Ward’s Embrace to a Gay LDS Couple
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormont...ersal-approval
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It would be nice if the rest of the church could be as open and welcoming as wards in Hawaii. And I know there are wards here and there that are like this (including a few here in Seattle).
I would love to see a positive statement like this in GenCon, but we have beat to death in this thread that time is perhaps many decades in the future, if ever.
My biggest frustration with the Church is that supposedly President Monson (and the other prophets) have direct communication with God. Some believe they actually see and converse with God.
If that is the case, why is our Church so behind when it comes to human rights?
In polygamy times, our church fought so hard to keep polygamy alive. Very few in the Church today would argue that Polygamy was a good policy.
In the 50's, our church fought hard against equal rights. The things the Mark E Petersen would spew from his mouth was disgusting. Then, in 1978, we reversed course and fell in line with all the heathens.
We are doing it again with the LGBT policies.
If we are a church run by god, why are we so far behind when it comes to how we treat God's children?
Shouldn't our church been the church in the 1940's that was out there fighting for equal rights, instead of being a roadblock? We shouldn't be decades behind in these matters, we should be fighting these fights before everyone else. We are led by God, aren't we?
Or does God want to be the last to get it right?
I wish I had answers for all these questions. The people who lead the LDS church are fallible humans, just as with any church (none of which has a perfect human rights record).
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The guy who's bungled everything and put BYU and the LDS church into a box is Dallin Oaks; he has to live with the fact that he's done catastrophic damage to this institution he reveres; he's probably not reflective enough to get it, though.
If anyone could have seen this coming it was him. He could have been the voice of moderation and reason, and with an immense amount of credibility. BYU could have gotten ahead of this problem a long time ago. Hell, it wasn't just the smart but the compassionate and right thing to do. Instead he became a zealot like Packer and wielded his resume like a club--making LGBT his primary cause. It turns out that graduating no. 1 from your class from Chicago and clerking for Justice Warren doesn't mean you're not stupid in important ways. He probably orchestrated Proposition 8, which has only accelerated the course of events that have now painted BYU into a corner (thank you, LDS Church, for Proposition 8). Then as this issue was litigated in the federal courts and the outcome became a fait accompli (the ringing decisions in favor of a constitutional right to same sex marriage one after the other from the federal courts in places like Utah and North Carolina and the foreshadowing Kennedy opinion on the federal marriage statute) he obstinately orchestrated that crazy religious group's amicus briefing that was so appalling to read.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I think a little spleen-venting now and then is good for the soul. Hope you feel better.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I've seen Dallin Oaks wearing a Utah hat. He is one of our plants, quietly taking BYU down from the inside.
Ha ha. Nice. Here's is where I currently stand with the Church:
It does a lot of good in the world. It teaches a lot of great things. I like my kids involved in the youth programs and a little spiritual discussion every week can't hurt.
I don't believe this church is run by God in the way it teaches. I don't think Monson sits in the holy of holies (sp?) and have a warm chocolate drink with the Savior while they discuss the problems of the world.
I do believe God inspired those that seek his guidance...in all walks of life.
I think the priesthood is a way to stay relevant.
As far as the jumping through hoops to get to heaven? I don't know. I am baptizing my oldest in a month.
I do think a lot of this church is no different than the Pharasees.
When you read the scriptures, you realize that life isn't about jumping through hoops, but life is about becoming something.
I fully believe there will be a lot of people that we look down on who absolutely became something better than when they started, even if they didn't become much, who will rest with God someday.
I also fully expect to see a lot of people we regard as holy, who will not rest with God, as they used their power and positions not to help, but to control and keep others down (see McConkie and Oaks).
I think there will be some shocked looks when we see how gets in vs who is left out.
Back to the main topic, the church teaches that LGBT people are born that way. Yet, what they innately feel is an offense to God.
I have troubles with that. Especially considering how wrong the church has been time and time again when it comes to human rights. From women, to other races, etc. The church has never been right and has needed pressure from the Gentiles to do the right thing.
Does the church teach that (I know you are being facetious about the hot chocolate etc)? I've always thought that it worked the same way for him as it does for me and the scriptures seem to support that. Not trying to get in an argument here, I'm just curious if that is a common thought that Pres Monson is having weekly one-on-ones with God or something.
The problem is they won't entertain a discussion regarding their fallibility, and they won't tolerate people speaking out in public or social media in lieu of said discussion.
And there are a number of churches with excellent human rights records. I think of the actions of the Quakers and Unitarians fighting against slavery in the 1700s, and our own brothers the Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) in their fight through the ages against slavery, racism, misogyny, and now homophobia. And both the COC and Seventh Day Adventists have a strong anti-war message that is admirable.
Outright teach that? No. Not at all. I've spoken to six apostles, and the vibe I received from them is that none of them have seen the savior.
In church? If you were to poll the members of the church, it wouldn't shock me if over half believe that the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 have seen Jesus.
I think this is a huge problem. I'm not sure where this attitude came from, because the Church did not treat Joseph with the same reverence that the leaders today are treated with.
I don't know if it came from McConkie or if it came from before that, but the thought process that the prophet is always right is wrong and not an original teaching. Joseph Smith taught contrary to that.
I've been watching Game of Thrones (I'm a heathen, I know) and something I found interesting is how Stannous allows himself to get caught up in his wife's religious fanaticism and how when the prophet asks Stannous to do some horrible things...he goes along with it.
I don't care what you believe, when you stand in front of God and he asks you why you treated his children differently..."I followed the prophet" will never be an acceptable excuse. You have inspiration. You have a brain. You have the right to receive personal revelation. Giving away that ability and gift...that has to be one of the most offensive things in God's eyes.
In fact, it is, isn't it? Isn't denying the Holy Ghost the only unrepentable sin? Isn't that the only sin that sends you to outer darkness and not to a lower level of glory?
A lot of the church culture you describe originated with Brigham Young. There is a great biography by John Turner on Brigham Young that is worth a read. Reading that will help you understand a lot about BY and a lot about why he was the way he was, and how that has affected things today. He changed a lot from his time in Nauvoo to his life in the west. Turner, who is not LDS, actually spends some time in his biography defending him too. Considering that he had tens of thousands of people who he needed to keep together and on task to simply survive he began to demand things be done without question. It could be argued that that sort of methodology simply kept the saints alive until they could prosper.
Heber J Grant was another stickler. There have been other figures like that throughout the church history and there have been a lot of people who were just the opposite. My father has a very personal story about David O McKay that would likely help you reconcile the 'are they inspired men of God' conundrum, unfortunately it is his to tell. I have one with James E Faust myself that is remarkable.
But I guess the question I have with all of this, and with issues like homosexuality in the church is we can discuss it but what is stopping you from acting? Nothing is stopping any member from being loving, helpful and welcoming to anyone and everyone. We each individually need to stop focusing on each others faults and focus on how we can lift each other, because we are all in this together. Just that simple thing would make the world of difference for the individual and for everyone else.
Awesome post. I'll look the book up.
I think your last post is 100% dead on. When we stand in front of God, we will have to give an accounting for what we did. I'll have to look at what I did. Not anyone else.
It's up to me to do my best every day to try to be better. You guys read my posts...I'm a pretty crappy guy. I'm about three feet from the bottom of a massive mountain...but, I am three feet higher than when I started, right?
I think if people did your last paragraph, most of our problems would fade away.
Whatever the Church's stance is on homosexuality, and whether or not it is right or wrong, doesn't excuse me from acting as Christlike as I can and that means treating everybody with respect.
Thanks for your post.
Remember that ward in Seattle that had the big LGBT outreach last year, the Washington Park ward?
It got split in Stake Conference last weekend and will be absorbed by the two adjoining wards.
That ward had a great thing going for a while, but the Policy Change last November has devastated church attendance around here. Chapels that used to be full all the way back through the overflow every Sunday are now just sparsely occupied during Sacrament Mtg.
I've probably already said this, but it's tough when the Bible and Jesus talk all about loving everyone, being kind, treating everyone the same...then the Church tells you to single others out and treat them differently. Then, you remember that when the Church has done this in the past (singled out groups and taught the members to treat them differently), the Church has been wrong.
That just breaks my heart. The policy change has to be the greatest blunder the brethern have made since nixing road shows.
That sucks. What ounces of hope I had for the church in making a progressive and smooth transition towards LGBT acceptance quickly eroded with the policy change. I've yet to meet anyone that can give be me a decent justification for the policy. It's really stupid.
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It does suck. It also isn't changing. The legalization of gay marriage has caused the Quorum of the 12 to throw an adult temper tantrum. The policy was the equivalent of when my son freaks out because I won't buy him a sprinkle donut.
So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
There is a gulf of understanding between younger generations and older folks.
In my neighborhood example(s), one neighbor came home from being a mission president, so multiple families got together and had a nice dinner for them, at the home of the parents who have had multiple kids come out of the closet, and I tagged along with my wife.
One of the lesbian daughters - now about 27, who met her spouse at BYU - was there, her mom would encourage her to come at least listen to the "grown ups" conversation, and she would sort of fade off into another room, and then her mom would go get her and she'd come back, there was definitely some kind of "see, these folks aren't that bad" type of coaxing going on.
Everyone remarked how beautiful she was and how nice it was to see her, how her long hair was so stunning.
Then the conversation turned to getting the mission president's wife caught up on all the news of other families in the ward, and they started talking about an elderly Hispanic couple down the street, and how the MP's wife had heard that her husband had gone inactive, and how that just broke her heart.
"I feel so bad for Doris. I can't imagine what she's going through". Later, another of the couples came in the room, the question of this wayward Hispanic gentleman came up, and the man said, "oh, he's not inactive, he's just serving in a Spanish-speaking ward".
The MP's wife start to weep with joy, said it was such a blessing to hear the good news. At that point, the host's lesbian daughter got up and left the room, and wasn't seen again.
The next morning, I drove past the house on my way to work, and this particular lesbian daughter was getting in her car, had cut all her hair off, was sporting a crew cut. I think her mom's attempt to show her the older folks in the ward were good, reasonable people kind of backfired.
On a different data point, my mom lives in downtown Bountiful, has a young couple next door. We thought they were just a "regular" young couple, young professionals, not religious, but good people. It turns out they met at BYU, got married, and since the policy change, they're part of a growing group of young LDS who are bailing out and have formed some kind of social organization that seeks to recreate the cohesive social connections and positive, service-oriented organization they appreciated about going to church. They've even gone door to door, with flyers. The wife told me mom their organization is small, but growing in Bountiful, but the "chapter" in Provo gets 300-500 people a week.
Did I say it's a gulf in understanding? It's the Grand Canyon.
I'm pretty doubtful anything changes in the Church quickly, but my hunch is once President Monson makes the transition, Uchdorf could be a Pope Francis type character for the Mormon Church, in a social landscape that is shifting more quickly than anyone imagined.
Last edited by Ma'ake; 09-30-2016 at 07:50 AM.
I think they're good people, who see the world dramatically differently than the younger generation, in general, including their own children. There's definitely a kind of a siege mentality among a lot of (especially older) TBMs, understandably.
(If my wife wasn't well connected, and essentially "revered" for being African American who became LDS, I wouldn't hear any of this stuff. I'm more or less an "untouchable" socially, in my neighborhood, which is OK with me. My conversations with neighbors amount to topics like lawnmowers, and a little about sports. And what the kids are up to, which is always a good chat.)
The older sister of this 27 year old, who is in a conventional marriage with kids, told my wife how "Grace's" life completely changed when she met her partner, at BYU. "She tried to date guys, and had some nice experiences, but her whole personality changed when she met "Susie". A peace came over her like I've never seen before".
The dynamics inside that family I wouldn't wish upon anyone. The poor mother has aged 20 years in the last 5 years. Visible anguish. I think she feels like the Martin Handcart party, except she can't escape by freezing to death.
The dynamics in the other family with multiple out-of-the-closet sons is strained a bit, too. About this time last year they posted a Facebook photo of the whole family, including one of the gay sons' spouses, and his daughter from a failed hetero marriage. I was impressed, as was my wife. Kind of like Mitch, Cam and Lilly of Modern Family.
Since the "policy" announcement last November(?), the 14 year old caboose, a daughter, has refused to go to church, saying she can't go to a church that won't let her niece become a member because her parents are gay. That's definitely hurting the mom, who shared this with my wife, and they both shed a few tears over their predicament.
In the bigger picture, I can see that my black wife is providing some much needed support and some solace and hope for the TBM ladies in the neighborhood, especially these moms of gay kids, who are feeling persecuted, or facing challenges of faith few can relate to. If my wife can let the priesthood ban stay in the past, maybe there's some hope for these gay kids to do something similar in the future, assuming things change...or some breakthrough occurs, of some kind.
My wife is also a source of strength - and maybe some pity - because she's married to me, the guy who's so fallen away he's been in Native American sweat lodges, and thinks the Unitarian church is a real church. lol. In my younger years, this kind of stuff would have made me angry, but I'm really just an observer, nowadays.
Actually, to be fair, my neighbors have been quite nice to me, since I'm not hostile, and I support my wife and son being Mormon. I think I'm just considered exceptionally "lost", but not hardcore "anti", and who knows, maybe they hold out hope that I'll see the light one day, but the enthusiasm for that potential occurrence has died way, waaay down.
It was weird as hell when the electricity was rampant that they might pull me back under the tent. Cookies and brownies coming from unknown sources, people I've never met waving and saying hello to me, by name.
The view from my "place" has been fascinating...
Last edited by Ma'ake; 09-30-2016 at 09:10 AM.
It's the wide divide between generations. Millennials and younger aren't gonna fart around the LGBT issue. They have a greater sense of right/wrong/justice for those in a minority group than older generations. I think once the church double, triple, then quadrupled-down on its opposition to gay relationships with its new policy, it lost the hearts and minds of a lot of people, particularly those that won't stand for another blacks-and-the-priesthood-type drawn out controversy. No patience for it anymore.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
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