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Thread: Was Mitt Romney Right About Everything?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The historical record is full of the likes of Emma Goldman, who thought Lenin and Stalin were just great guys until the Non-Aggression Pact. The disaffection began then but you cannot deny that prior to that time many American leftists loved the guy. Even now I'll bet the majority of American poli sci professors think Stalin was just an aberration. Guys like Le Carre think Gorbachev was the man who really ended the Cold War. All I am saying is that historically the Left has tended to be wrong about Russian Communism. Attack that proposition.
    now you have highljacked your own thread. You throw around overwroght labels like 'leftist' and equate Obama's views with Emma Goldman's? Seriously?

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The historical record is full of the likes of Emma Goldman, who thought Lenin and Stalin were just great guys until the Non-Aggression Pact. The disaffection began then but you cannot deny that prior to that time many American leftists loved the guy. Even now I'll bet the majority of American poli sci professors think Stalin was just an aberration. Guys like Le Carre think Gorbachev was the man who really ended the Cold War. All I am saying is that historically the Left has tended to be wrong about Russian Communism. Attack that proposition.
    You said people are still defending the Soviet Union and calling Stalin an aberation. Emma Goldman died over 70 years ago. She also eventually wised up considerably about the Soviet Union. In any event, forgive her, a native Russian, for supporting a revolutionary movement that brought down the Czar and theocracy in Russia which were not much better than the Soviet Union (as the status quo -- led by Putin, a devout Orthodox Christian -- demonstrates).
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  3. #33
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    So you are saying that Obama is far to the left of FDR and Truman, that his instincts are the equivalent of Duranty or any other communist sympathizer in the 1930's?
    No, no, no. That's not what I said. Not even close. I said this:

    The point is, Romney was right about that and the Left, which has always gotten Russia wrong, was wrong again this time.
    By "that," I was referring directly to this quotation from a Buzzfeed piece:

    In the most actively cited example of the Republican nominee’s foresight, Romneyites point to the candidate’s hardline rhetoric last year against Russian President Vladimir Putin and his administration. During the campaign, Romney frequently criticized Obama for foolishly attempting to make common cause with the Kremlin, and repeatedly referred to Russia as “our number one geopolitical foe.”

    Many observers found this fixation strange, and Democrats tried to turn it into a punchline. A New York Times editorial in March of last year said Romney’s assertions regarding Russia represented either “a shocking lack of knowledge about international affairs or just craven politics.” And in an October debate, Obama sarcastically mocked his opponent’s Russia rhetoric. “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years,” the president quipped at the time.
    P.S. I didn't highjack the thread. You posed the question "Miss me yet," and I responded with the unanimous answer (present company excepted).
    You guys are brutal.

    carter-miss-me-yet.jpg

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #34
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    ...led by Putin, a devout Orthodox Christian....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    No, no, no. That's not what I said. Not even close. I said this:



    By "that," I was referring directly to this quotation from a Buzzfeed piece:





    You guys are brutal.

    carter-miss-me-yet.jpg

    I think you just qualified for the Guiness Book of World Records for most highjacking of your own thread.

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    I think you just qualified for the Guiness Book of World Records for most highjacking of your own thread.
    hit1-smiley.gif

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3d_yxJhmjk
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Hardly! As I mentioned above, GWB felt he could trust Putin because he is a Christian (at least nominally) and wears a cross. Also he has twin daughters like GWB, so they really bonded over those issues. Perhaps he dismissed the fact that Putin was the head of the KGB in the 80s-90s because GHWB was head of the CIA back in the 70s.

    But the bottom line is he let his strong cognitive biases blind him to the facts on the ground.

    An argument COULD be made that's Obama overstepped in his trust of Putin when he agreed to a one-sided reduction in the nuclear arsenal, but frankly we should get rid of much of our aging stockpiles before they cause problems.

    As for Putin being devout, recall he pushed for the band Pussy Riot to be given harsh prison sentences because they criticized Patriarch Kiril of the Russian Orthodox Church. They were given 3 year sentences for doing some this we take for granted in this country.

  9. #39
    Also, I hope Romney and the Republican party will collectively look at Putin and recognize his crackdown against gays and gay marriage is bad, and will at least moderate their position on the matter.

  10. #40
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    What did you mean by "devout?"

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    What did you mean by "devout?"
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devout
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can explain it. Politics is a game, a sport. Republicans and Democrats are rival fans and hate each other.

    A BYU player gets a DUI. BYU fans say he's a good kid who needs another chance. Utes say he's a thug. The next week, a Utah player gets a DUI, and the fanbases invert their responses. Democrats and Republicans are no different. The same bill that Democrats reject under Republican leadership would be accepted and praised under democratic leadership, and vice versa.

    Some people fill their need for competition with sports and some with politics, but both are just games. After Utah loses to BYU, I am a wreck for 24 hours but then life goes back to normal. After some guy beats some other dude in an election, half the population is ecstatic and the other half is depressed, and then they all go back to work the next day.

    When you understand that this is all a game as meaningless as football, you can relax a little about it.
    I agree and I reached that point a long time ago. However, it's my perception that republicans are more wedded to the party label. For example, despite NAFTA and other pro-business actions by Clinton, a Southerner who was quite moderate and not so different from Bush Sr. with respect to foreign policy, etc., Clinton engendered the same kind of hatred as we see directed at Obama, as evidenced by the moribund impeachment proceedings.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  13. #43
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can explain it. Politics is a game, a sport. Republicans and Democrats are rival fans and hate each other.

    A BYU player gets a DUI. BYU fans say he's a good kid who needs another chance. Utes say he's a thug. The next week, a Utah player gets a DUI, and the fanbases invert their responses. Democrats and Republicans are no different. The same bill that Democrats reject under Republican leadership would be accepted and praised under democratic leadership, and vice versa.

    Some people fill their need for competition with sports and some with politics, but both are just games. After Utah loses to BYU, I am a wreck for 24 hours but then life goes back to normal. After some guy beats some other dude in an election, half the population is ecstatic and the other half is depressed, and then they all go back to work the next day.

    When you understand that this is all a game as meaningless as football, you can relax a little about it.
    I thought the Ute player who drove the wrong way, drunk, on the freeway was a thug who should have been tossed from the team. I don't recall what actually happened to him. There are other examples.

    I also lean in favor of action in Syria but fear the president has waited too long.

    I think you make some important points but if you are saying elections don't matter, I disagree strongly.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #44
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    We agree to disagree then. My life would be no different today had Mitt Romney won the election, other than me being bothered by having a BYU grad in a position of prominence (disclosure: I did not make it to the polls. Couldn't vote for Obama because he promised a football playoff and did nothing about it. Couldn't vote for Romney because he used to be president of the Cougar Club - far too many Ute fans were willing to overlook this).
    Because of the 2008 election we have Obamacare and it will affect all of us pretty substantially. If Obama gets a chance to change the Supreme Court's balance from its current 4-1-4 conservative-independent-liberal "balance," we will changes that affect all of us.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Because of the 2008 election we have Obamacare and it will affect all of us pretty substantially. If Obama gets a chance to change the Supreme Court's balance from its current 4-1-4 conservative-independent-liberal "balance," we will changes that affect all of us.
    I think the president per se is important for two reasons: judicial appointments and foreign policy. The Affordable Care Act would not have been enacted absent a receptive Congress comprised of enough democrats.

    However, when you have a president like GW Bush who left office so hugely unpopular you should consider yourself lucky to get a moderate democrat, and I consider both Clinton and Obama to be moderates. I think regarding whether Obama is a "Leftist" I'll take Smiley & West's word for it instead of Norman Podhoritz's, for reasons related to the political gamesmanship identified by sancho.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Really. Then I wonder why Tavis Smiley and Cornell West were calling Obama "a house negro" on NPR yesterday. Actually, except for the Affordable Care Act, which isn't really "Leftist" legistlation whether or not you support it (except to those who identify themselves as men of the "Right"), I have a hard time distinguishing Bush's policies from Obama's at least insofar as what really matters. Seems like Obama has been just more of the same in Iraq, Pakistan, etc. As those wars wind down he wants to sart a new one (I'm sure you and Il Pad would be vociferous in your support for a strike on Syria were Bush the president advocating that action). Obama's justice department has pretty much let go scot-free the Wall Street fat cats who were substantial factors in the 2008 financial crisis that led to the greatest economic downturn since the 1930's. Obama continued Bush's awful Keynsian economic measures in response to said recesssion.
    As usual, you are wrong about me.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Because of the 2008 election we have Obamacare and it will affect all of us pretty substantially. If Obama gets a chance to change the Supreme Court's balance from its current 4-1-4 conservative-independent-liberal "balance," we will changes that affect all of us.
    Had whatsisname pulled out of the primaries when he should have, I think Romney would have beat McCain in the primary and likely would have won the General over Obama.

    Congress would have delivered a very similar medical plan, dubbed it Romney care (a new plan, patterned after the the old one he installed, where he used to live). And he would have signed it.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Many republicans' hatred for any democratic president no matter moderate or similar to prior republican presidents is something I can't explain. I'm sure that Il Pad's blazing hatred for Obama has nothing to do with the president's race. But nor does it have much to do with his actual actions or positions taken while in office. It's simply because Obama is a democrat.
    You may be book smart, but your arrogance in thinking that you know who I am or what I'm about seems to force you to put me in some sort of little box so that it fits your narrative and makes you look like a buffoon.

    I'll give you credit that it has nothing to do with race, but I'd hate him just as much if he was a Republican. My hatred for Obama is that he is an arrogant asshole who believes himself superior to everyone. His far left policies only give me reason to hate his policies and his "good for thee but not for me" attitude about implication of his policies just emphasizes his arrogance.
    "Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection." - Red Smith

  19. #49
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I think the president per se is important for two reasons: judicial appointments and foreign policy. The Affordable Care Act would not have been enacted absent a receptive Congress comprised of enough democrats.

    However, when you have a president like GW Bush who left office so hugely unpopular you should consider yourself lucky to get a moderate democrat, and I consider both Clinton and Obama to be moderates. I think regarding whether Obama is a "Leftist" I'll take Smiley & West's word for it instead of Norman Podhoritz's, for reasons related to the political gamesmanship identified by sancho.
    SU, I am crestfallen and disappointed. I really am. I try to write nuanced posts (OK, I usually try) and it's all lost on you, of all people. For example, I never called Obama a leftist. He isn't. I was careful to say that. I do think he is the most left-leaning president we have had since -- well, maybe ever.

    Obamacare was enacted as it is because the Democrats had a veto-proof majority, something that occurs very rarely in U.S. history. Without such a majority there would have been a health care bill but it would have been quite different, probably something along the lines of Bennett-Wyden. My point was that elections matter. Now, that one is not very nuanced, and you should not have missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Had whatshisname pulled out of the primaries when he should have, I think Romney would have beat McCain in the primary and likely would have won the General over Obama.

    Congress would have delivered a very similar medical plan, dubbed it Romney care (a new plan, patterned after the the old one he installed, where he used to live). And he would have signed it.
    Cross my heart and hope to die, I promise you that any health care bill Romney got behind as president would have been quite different from Obamacare, and probably from Romneycare too.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    SU, I am crestfallen and disappointed. I really am. I try to write nuanced posts (OK, I usually try) and it's all lost on you, of all people. For example, I never called Obama a leftist. He isn't. I was careful to say that. I do think he is the most left-leaning president we have had since -- well, maybe ever.

    Obamacare was enacted as it is because the Democrats had a veto-proof majority, something that occurs very rarely in U.S. history. Without such a majority there would have been a health care bill but it would have been quite different, probably something along the lines of Bennett-Wyden. My point was that elections matter. Now, that one is not very nuanced, and you should not have missed it.



    Cross my heart and hope to die, I promise you that any health care bill Romney got behind as president would have been quite different from Obamacare, and probably from Romneycare too.
    \
    You didn't call Obama a leftist, but you invoke Duranty and Emma Goldman, and you say "Obama's instincts seem to be is somewhere between liberal and Left, learning hard to the Left," and "I do think he is the most left-leaning president we have had since -- well, maybe ever." That is nuanced all right, sort of like trying to figure out what the definition of is, is.

  21. #51
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    \
    You didn't call Obama a leftist, but you invoke Duranty and Emma Goldman, and you say "Obama's instincts seem to be is somewhere between liberal and Left, learning hard to the Left," and "I do think he is the most left-leaning president we have had since -- well, maybe ever." That is nuanced all right, sort of like trying to figure out what the definition of is, is.
    I think he is the most liberal president since Wilson, but the modern term kind of loses its applicability if you go back too far. Reagan was the most conservative since Coolidge. Whether terms like "liberal" or "conservative" are pejoratives depends on one's point of view. I brought up Goldman and Duranty in support of my (unfortunately) tangential point about the Left historically being wrong about Russia. Obama's not in the same category as those people, as far as I can tell.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think he is the most liberal president since Wilson, but the modern term kind of loses its applicability if you go back too far. Reagan was the most conservative since Coolidge. Whether terms like "liberal" or "conservative" are pejoratives depends on one's point of view. I brought up Goldman and Duranty in support of my (unfortunately) tangential point about the Left historically being wrong about Russia. Obama's not in the same category as those people, as far as I can tell.
    Really? More liberal than FDR who enacted social security and advocated entry into World War II? More liberal than Truman who undertook the Berlin airlift, established NATO, developed the policy of containment, reconstructed Japan, and opposed Jim Crow and other segregation? More liberal than Johnson, who enacted the 1964 Civil Rights Act, medicare, and medicaid and appointed the first black Supreme Court justice? More liberal than Reagan, who repudiated nuclear arms control treaties with the Soviets, comparing this process (at least implicitly) to Neville Chamberlain's appeasment of Nazis?

    These actions were all radical departures from historical norms and/or the status quo. I would call them "liberal" actions. Obama has not even clearly supported gay marriage. His only "liberal" activity has been the Affordable Care Act, which I don't think is as radical a departure as the examples I used above. How is Wilson more liberal than the presidents I've identified in this post? (I hope I would not want to be dissasociated from what you consider "conservative".)
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 09-09-2013 at 05:27 PM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can explain it. Politics is a game, a sport. Republicans and Democrats are rival fans and hate each other.

    A BYU player gets a DUI. BYU fans say he's a good kid who needs another chance. Utes say he's a thug. The next week, a Utah player gets a DUI, and the fanbases invert their responses. Democrats and Republicans are no different. The same bill that Democrats reject under Republican leadership would be accepted and praised under democratic leadership, and vice versa.

    Some people fill their need for competition with sports and some with politics, but both are just games. After Utah loses to BYU, I am a wreck for 24 hours but then life goes back to normal. After some guy beats some other dude in an election, half the population is ecstatic and the other half is depressed, and then they all go back to work the next day.

    When you understand that this is all a game as meaningless as football, you can relax a little about it.
    I made a comparison between partisan politics and sports rivalries a number of years ago at my history site. Reason need not apply.

    I've been trying to go against the grain the last four years in both areas.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  24. #54
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Really? More liberal than FDR who enacted social security and advocated entry into World War II? More liberal than Truman who undertook the Berlin airlift, established NATO, developed the policy of containment, reconstructed Japan, and opposed Jim Crow and other segregation? More liberal than Johnson, who enacted the 1964 Civil Rights Act, medicare, and medicaid and appointed the first black Supreme Court justice? More liberal than Reagan, who repudiated Soviet arms control, comparing this process (at least implicitly) to Neville Chamberlain's appeasment of Nazis?

    These actions were all radical departures from historical norms and/or the status quo. I would call them "liberal" actions. Obama has not even clearly supported gay marriage. His only "liberal" activity has been the Affordable Care Act, which I don't think is as radical a departure as the examples I used above. How is Wilson more liberal than the presidents I've identified in this post? (I hope I would not want to be dissasociated from what you consider "conservative".)
    I'm just using political science parlance, which is different from what you are using. "Bold" does not mean "liberal."

    I thought about the FDR comparison, but FDR was a president who wanted a strong American role in the world. Perhaps that was because WWII forced him that direction, but he jumped into the role with alacrity and skill. (Whether his decisions at Yalta, etc., were right will be debated forever.) Obama so far has been a president whose actions are consistent with wanting a lesser American role in the world. I am not saying that as a criticism, even though I strongly dislike his foreign policy; I'm just trying to describe him.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I'm just using political science parlance, which is different from what you are using. "Bold" does not mean "liberal."

    I thought about the FDR comparison, but FDR was a president who wanted a strong American role in the world. Perhaps that was because WWII forced him that direction, but he jumped into the role with alacrity and skill. (Whether his decisions at Yalta, etc., were right will be debated forever.) Obama so far has been a president whose actions are consistent with wanting a lesser American role in the world. I am not saying that as a criticism, even though I strongly dislike his foreign policy; I'm just trying to describe him.
    Here in Seattle we say progressive, not liberal. What I described were all progressive actions.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think he is the most liberal president since Wilson, but the modern term kind of loses its applicability if you go back too far. Reagan was the most conservative since Coolidge. Whether terms like "liberal" or "conservative" are pejoratives depends on one's point of view. I brought up Goldman and Duranty in support of my (unfortunately) tangential point about the Left historically being wrong about Russia. Obama's not in the same category as those people, as far as I can tell.
    Many on the far left are upset at him for one thing or another. I know one in particular who insists the Obama has governed as a centrist, much to his dismay.

    I don't know how liberal he is, I just see him as largely ineffective -- probably the most ineffective president since Buchanan.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  27. #57
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Here in Seattle we say progressive, not liberal. What I described were all progressive actions.
    "Progressive" is a term liberals have started suing to avoid the negative connotation of the term "liberal." It's pretty nifty: A progressive is in favor of progress, which suggests their opponents are opposed to progress. It also moves the discussion away from the idea of governing principles or core beliefs. After all, who can disagree with progress? It's a word like "fairness," or "compassion," etc.

    Again, don't get angry or indignant, I am just looking at this as a pretty impressive use of rhetoric, an area in which conservatives have been performing horribly for decades now. Romney, for example, was really bad at articulating such core beliefs.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Cross my heart and hope to die, I promise you that any health care bill Romney got behind as president would have been quite different from Obamacare, and probably from Romneycare too.
    Unless he changed course somehow and adopted McCain's plan* (which I liked), I suspect the Act would be similar in very many ways to the plan we have now. And after spending the better part of a year berating McCain's plan he would have looked wishy washy to suddenly accept it.


    *all hospitals must accept all insurance plans without market interference from the various states, and the insurance buyer rather than the employer gets to keep the tax deduction/credit. An insurance exchange would be established to offer cheaper insurance options to those who couldn't otherwise afford it.

  29. #59
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I've read a few studies on the topic. They both satisfy competitive urges and fill needs for community.
    Some people get involved in politics because they care about public policy and want to influence it. Just sayin'.


    "It's men in shorts."

    -- Rick Majerus

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #60
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I've had one good friend who was a politician, so my sample size is 1. He was great with people, loved schmoozing, and craved the spotlight. He was a born politician. When we talked, he admitted to me that he didn't care too much about the issues; he was happy to go whichever way would get him elected. But politicians are a different breed - I'm mostly talking about people who belong to political parties, follow things closely, and get excited/depressed based on polls. For those people, politics and sports more or less the same except one is cool and the other is lame.
    no-points-smiley.gif

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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