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Thread: Are you a non-Mormon? Do you practice another faith? Or none?

  1. #1

    Are you a non-Mormon? Do you practice another faith? Or none?

    Following on my Mormonism poll, I'm curious to hear from the people who don't self identify as Mormon or primarily Mormon. Catholic? Mainline protestant? Restorationist (other than Mormon)? Eastern religion? Fundamentalist? Atheist? I feel like I would end up messing up a poll and don't have enough options anyway, so I'll just invite people to say (if they are comfortable). I'm really hoping we have have a religion forum where differences can be discussed and questions asked with respect and curiosity and without the rancor that I have only ever experienced in Utah.

    Hello, my name is UtahDan and I am an agnostic atheist. But religion fascinates me.

  2. #2
    Too old to care... Expat's Avatar
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    hahaha

    Hi UtahDan!

    I'm an Expat, and I'm a Roman Catholic of the Vatican II persuasion
    Life is not a zero-sum game - we can all succeed together, and we can all be better off for it

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    hahaha

    Hi UtahDan!

    I'm an Expat, and I'm a Roman Catholic of the Vatican II persuasion
    See this is perfect. I have no clue what that means. Can you thumbnail it for me?

  4. #4
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    I was raised Presbyterian, two of my Aunts are/were ordained Presbyterian ministers and most of my family is fairly active.

    I was very active, however I no longer attend church and really have no desire to. Some of that is from age and experiences with, some probably from what I see at work.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I was raised Presbyterian, two of my Aunts are/were ordained Presbyterian ministers and most of my family is fairly active.

    I was very active, however I no longer attend church and really have no desire to. Some of that is from age and experiences with, some probably from what I see at work.
    Okay, that piques my curiosity.

    (Is that your Camaro by the way? I love those.)

  6. #6
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.

    And yes, that's my Camaro. I need newer pictures. It's been lowered 1.25" and had the Bowtie blacked out since that was taken.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.
    I'm right there with you. If God does exist, I have a hard time escaping that (1) he doesn't get involved with human beings at all or (2) that he is just as fickle and capricious as the ancient Gods we laugh at now.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    Hello, my name is UtahDan and I am an agnostic atheist. But religion fascinates me.
    That's awesome. I say that exact same thing (except the UtahDan part) all the time. Even though I don't believe in a supreme being I have taken religion courses, and love talking to people about their faith.

    My childhood was a bit different than a lot of folks here concerning religion. There was absolutely no presence of religion in the home (Bibles, church, talk, etc). Even without being brought up in or around a religion I still held a belief that God existed. I married a somewhat religious girl who happened to come from a VERY devout Christian family; a West Texas Christian family (I feel like that adds some emphasis to the devout part). Within a couple of years I was as hardcore a born again as you could find. I delved into the Bible for the first time in my life. Without going into much further detail, reading through the Bible over the next couple of years is really what made me lose my faith altogether.

    My lack of belief in a deity is not an indictment against people of faith. Religion can help people accomplish very good things, and can influence others very negatively. I don't blame a group of people for the actions of any fringe sects. I just wanted to make that clear so that people won't think of me as an angry, religion hating atheist. People of utefans know that I care about freedom of religion as much as freedom of speech.
    Last edited by 480ute; 02-24-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  9. #9
    I believe my parents, specifically my Mom did such a good job raising me that I finally found what I believe is best for me in my life. Thanks Mom, even if I didn't end up where you wanted me I am comfortable with it.

    - Therapy is your friend.


    -What would you do
    if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
    Would you fear them?
    Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.

    What was that for?
    Try to be bad.


  10. #10
    Probably no surprise to 480ute as seen in previous UFN posts, I'm a devout non-denominational Christian who believes wholeheartedly in Christ as my Lord and Savior, and stands up for my faith and principles regardless of who criticizes or condemns. Grew up in Utah in a non-religious home, but identified myself with Catholicism due to my mom. My step-mom was Mormon and my dad a non-practicing Jew. My turning point came when I joined the Navy at 22 and born-again later that year, although I had nobody in my life who pointed me in that direction. I was young, dumb, and without direction until God intervened...brought me to my knees and saved me. I was never promised an easy life thereafter and life in many areas became harder; even had my momentary doubts, but the MORE I read His word, the closer I am with Him and even more I believe. I don't judge non-believers nor do I condemn them, but hope all would come to know the God that I do. Growing up in the surroundings and circumstances that I did, I have no business of being a Christian today...unless?????

  11. #11
    Grew up Mormon, decided as a teenager I couldn't "sustain it", went through a wilderness of heavy doubt and anxiety, married a black baptist woman and have since decided religions and their adherents mostly intend to do good. Been to many, many different churches, fascinated by them all, particularly how different cultures view the Devine. (Example: differences in "tone" and emphasis between black baptists and Southern baptists. Very, very different.)

    Most powerful religious experience: Shoshone sweat lodge in Wyoming on a bitter cold January night. No peyote, but it was very earnest and moving. Native American religion takes a back seat to nobody, in my book.

    Most interesting recent religious discussion: I work with a lot of Hindus. We westerners misunderstand their belief in multiple deities. Underneath the rituals and extensive ideology is a simple, unifying belief system that treats believers in other religions well. I like that.

  12. #12
    "red star" Chad..........


    -What would you do
    if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
    Would you fear them?
    Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.

    What was that for?
    Try to be bad.


  13. #13
    Atheist. I grew up in a moderately religious Christian family but my parents never pushed it very hard. I don't think I ever fully believed in god, and by the time I was a sophomore in high school I was ready to accept that I was an atheist.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoUteTroutHead View Post
    "red star" Chad..........

    Other topic, but where in Idaho, if you care to share?
    “Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.”
    André Gide

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Grew up Mormon, decided as a teenager I couldn't "sustain it", went through a wilderness of heavy doubt and anxiety, married a black baptist woman and have since decided religions and their adherents mostly intend to do good. Been to many, many different churches, fascinated by them all, particularly how different cultures view the Devine. (Example: differences in "tone" and emphasis between black baptists and Southern baptists. Very, very different.)

    Most powerful religious experience: Shoshone sweat lodge in Wyoming on a bitter cold January night. No peyote, but it was very earnest and moving. Native American religion takes a back seat to nobody, in my book.

    Most interesting recent religious discussion: I work with a lot of Hindus. We westerners misunderstand their belief in multiple deities. Underneath the rituals and extensive ideology is a simple, unifying belief system that treats believers in other religions well. I like that.
    Ma'ake - how do you go about participating in a sweat lodge ceremony? Do you have to be invited? Are there requirements? I've always been curious about what that is like. A Native American family lived in my ward when i was in high school and they had a sweat lodge they would go to at their grandfather's home. I always wanted to go but never was invited. Is it okay to ask what the experience was like from a spiritual perspective and also from a more mechanical/what happened perspective?

  16. #16
    I do care to share. Was raised in the wide open sage infested tundra of SouthEast Idaho. Blackfoot/Moreland area to be more specific, sandwiched inbetween the sprawling metropolis of Pocatello and Idaho Falls. I do so miss it sometimes.


    -What would you do
    if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
    Would you fear them?
    Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.

    What was that for?
    Try to be bad.


  17. #17
    Too old to care... Expat's Avatar
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    Sure, I understand it only in generalities, but basically the Second Vatican Council, or Vatican II - which happened long before I converted to Catholicism (from Lutheran) - was an effort to bring the Catholic Church into the 20th century, from the 14th. One of the most noticeable changes was that masses could be spoken in native tongues, no more all Latin, all the time. But there has been a backlash in the Church, and some of the more conservative movements, like Opus Dei, would really, really like to repeal a lot of the progressive changes.
    Life is not a zero-sum game - we can all succeed together, and we can all be better off for it

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeUte View Post
    Ma'ake - how do you go about participating in a sweat lodge ceremony? Do you have to be invited? Are there requirements? I've always been curious about what that is like. A Native American family lived in my ward when i was in high school and they had a sweat lodge they would go to at their grandfather's home. I always wanted to go but never was invited. Is it okay to ask what the experience was like from a spiritual perspective and also from a more mechanical/what happened perspective?

    Hey Orange.

    I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

    Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

    (I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

    Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

    You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

    It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

    He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

    We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

    Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

    One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

    Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

    I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

    Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 02-21-2013 at 05:10 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoUteTroutHead View Post
    I do care to share. Was raised in the wide open sage infested tundra of SouthEast Idaho. Blackfoot/Moreland area to be more specific, sandwiched inbetween the sprawling metropolis of Pocatello and Idaho Falls. I do so miss it sometimes.
    Hey TroutHead, my kid plays U16 travel hockey. Besides Vegas, Phoenix, and other large cities... We've also attended tournaments in Idaho Falls and Salmon (with their outdoor rink and fire-pits).

    I enjoy the scenery up there, it's absolutely beautiful. Always a good time.

    Ma'ake, that was cool of you to post that. That sounds like a outstanding experience. If I ever get that opportunity, I would take it.
    Last edited by Devildog; 02-21-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  20. #20
    Devil, I love the IF area....just go a bit farter north, ignore Sexburg and find yourself in Ashton, St.Anthony, Island Park. MONEY!


    -What would you do
    if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
    Would you fear them?
    Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.

    What was that for?
    Try to be bad.


  21. #21
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Fascinating, uplifting post, Ma'ake. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.

    And yes, that's my Camaro. I need newer pictures. It's been lowered 1.25" and had the Bowtie blacked out since that was taken.
    I'm of the opinion that God allows bad things to happen to good people because He sees this existence - mortality - in a different light than we do. What may seem tragic to us as mortals will no longer seem tragic once we become immortal, like Him. A tidal wave killing hundreds of people is awful to us, but it also allows hundreds of His children to return to His presence.

    What happens on this earth, even to good people, is pretty insignificant when you look at these events with eternity in mind.

  23. #23
    Excellent post, Maake. That was a very interesting and enlightening read.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Hey Orange.

    I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

    Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

    (I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

    Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

    You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

    It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

    He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

    We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

    Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

    One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

    Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

    I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

    Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.
    All my relations.
    “The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
    Carl Sagan

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Hey Orange.

    I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

    Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

    (I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

    Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

    You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

    It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

    He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

    We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

    Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

    One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

    Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

    I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

    Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.
    Ma'ake - that is more than I was hoping for when I asked you, and incredibly more moving and thoughtful than anything that I think I have ever read on a message board or heard in a worship service of anykind. I am grateful to you for explaining your experiernceand for sharing so much detail.

    I have always been interested in religion and how it impacts our view of the world around us. I served my mission in South Africa where the native Africans are incredible tied to their ancestors in their worship. Often, that belief was a punchline, but I thought it was beautiful to be so connected to your ancestors that you believed they were part of you, part of the world around you, and part of something great to be worshipped. I believe that trying to tie ourselves to something around us - the world, our relations, our talents - is the primary goal of religion... We need to learn to be part of something greater than ourselves and to appreciate the many roles that we and others play in the universe. It isn't about positions and powers - it is about understanding and appreciating.

    Man, my mind is asking questions... I am curious about this... As for the sweat lodge - did you think that the mutual suffering helped you to understand and appreciate each other more for what you were experiencing and going through? Is that what made it so intense on a personal level, or was it more than that? It is interesting that you were able to go in completely open-minded as opposed to the associate who was a devout mormon... She hestitated and then once she realized that there was an experience to be had, she let down her guard and realized that the beauty of the moment was to connect with those around her and appreciate our shared experiences... What is it about religion that seems so scared of new and different experiences?

  26. #26

  27. #27
    ║▌│█│║▌║││█║▌║▌║▌█ Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    My religion is kindness.
    My_Religion_is_Kindness.jpg

    Cool... You and the Dalai Lama have the same religion. So you got that goin' for you, which is nice.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by midnightversion View Post
    I'm of the opinion that God allows bad things to happen to good people because He sees this existence - mortality - in a different light than we do. What may seem tragic to us as mortals will no longer seem tragic once we become immortal, like Him. A tidal wave killing hundreds of people is awful to us, but it also allows hundreds of His children to return to His presence.

    What happens on this earth, even to good people, is pretty insignificant when you look at these events with eternity in mind.
    This post is excellent. I don't believe in an interventional God (for different reasons than MV), but this rationale is similar to mine.
    “Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.”
    André Gide

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoUteTroutHead View Post
    Devil, I love the IF area....just go a bit farter north, ignore Sexburg and find yourself in Ashton, St.Anthony, Island Park. MONEY!
    My mom is from St Anthony. I spent every summer as a kid on Henry's Fork. What great memories. I feel guilty that I don't make time to give my kids the same experience.
    "Don't apologize; it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."

  30. #30
    Hostile, if you get a chance get your kids up there..........really a magical place. As you know.


    -What would you do
    if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
    Would you fear them?
    Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.

    What was that for?
    Try to be bad.


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