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Thread: The Thread about LDS with doubts

  1. #91
    Many good LDS feel the world is deviating away from them and their values. It's a little less friendly out there. As with post Prop-8, some of the concern is absolutely real.

    Now we have BYU itself under the microscope / "being discriminated against" on the LGBT letter, regarding potential Big-12 admission.

    Hordes of young Mormons hear the conventional message "the world is turning away, we must be strong", they can easily check out this change for themselves and see if it actually represents the wicked turning their backs on God, ala before-the-flood, and they're concluding "I just don't see it".

    And they edge away...

  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    and they're concluding "I just don't see it".
    Or sometimes, "I just don't care."

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Or sometimes, "I just don't care."
    True.

    Religions/societies have always struggled, when older generations try to convey the importance of tradition/belief/ritual to youngsters.

    When you're a teenager and in your 20s, you're invincible, warnings bounce off.

    Kids: "I don't care / I don't see it / it's a new world, daddio."

    Traditionalists: "Make no mistake - gay marriage is a threat to traditional marriage."

    Kids: "Go back to bed, grandpa"

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post

    Traditionalists: "Make no mistake - gay marriage is a threat to traditional marriage."

    Kids: "Go back to bed, grandpa"
    In this case the Kids also think about the gay friends they have and say, "Grandpa certainly isn't being very Christian...", and take a peek behind the curtain.

    Often they will see the problems in the belief structure and will choose to be somewhat heterodox with the belief system. In many religions this is perfectly acceptable. In others it is unacceptable and can lead to judgement/punishment/shunning.

    The difference between the two may down to whether we base or spirituality on our own personal experiences (commune with 'the divine', however we interpret that to be), or do we base our spirituality on what somebody else tells us?

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Or sometimes, "I just don't care."
    This is probably more accurate meaning the kids edging away aren't leaving because they don't see the shift it is because they don't care or want to be part of what is now considered normal society.

    Really the only thing I see 'good LDS kids' disagreeing with their church about is the LGBT thing. Most of the other standards they get.



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  6. #96
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Traditionalists: "Make no mistake - gay marriage is a threat to traditional marriage."
    As the board defender of the Faith, I will simply try to bring some proportion back to the discussion here. The trope you've quoted above is a bit of a strawman. That was never a talking point during the Proposition 8 battle, for example. (I don't think it is now, either.) It was raised by opponents to Prop 8 in the sense of, "How is my gay marriage jeopardizing your traditional marriage?" Like all strawmen, it is pretty easy to knock down.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    In this case the Kids also think about the gay friends they have and say, "Grandpa certainly isn't being very Christian...", and take a peek behind the curtain.
    I think a lot of kids say that, but you know that there is a pretty well-developed response to that concern, and the discussion might begin with that very simple sentiment, but it certainly should not end there.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #97
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Thread about LDS with doubts

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This podcast interview is quite interesting if you can make the time to listen to it:

    http://www.fairblog.org/2013/11/06/f...hose-in-doubt/

    I think skeptics, doubters, critics and believers alike will find something here.
    Bump.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-20-2016 at 12:01 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #98
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Are there any good restaurants in SLC yet?
    Yes

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    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  9. #99
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    A new book that's pretty good (I have a copy myself):

    Laura Harris Hales
    A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/...=UTF8&cursor=3

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Often they will see the problems in the belief structure and will choose to be somewhat heterodox with the belief system. In many religions this is perfectly acceptable. In others it is unacceptable and can lead to judgement/punishment/shunning.

    The difference between the two may down to whether we base or spirituality on our own personal experiences (commune with 'the divine', however we interpret that to be), or do we base our spirituality on what somebody else tells us?
    That's another thing that has changed - Mormons are far less orthodox about things, at least compared to what I remember. Part of it was growing up in the 60s and 70s, but the McConkie book was pretty much scripture. The Catholics were the great and abominable church, all the other Christians were confused - at best - and so on.

    When McConkie announced in 1978 "forget what I or anyone else has written on this topic - it is inaccurate now", that undermined a common belief that much of what came out of the mouths of Bishops - or certainly Stake Presidents and above - was sort of real time communication from God, or Jesus, or the HG.

    (Back when I used to argue this stuff more vigorously, I posed the question on some other forum how God could call a pedophile to be Scoutmaster, and got a boardmail response from somebody who claimed they were in the Bishopric, and admitted sometimes they felt inspired, but a lot of time they were just trying to do the best job they could. To me, that was a great answer that started to soften my own heart about the motivations of TBMs, and other religionists.)

    By the time BY was thrown under the bus with the recent essay trying to answer the race question once and for all, those folks - who hadn't concluded that large amounts of what has been taught could be simple fabrication - have largely taken a much more nuanced view about the difference between material that is the result of inspiration, and the Moses-type of dictation scenario.

    I think this is a good thing, for the individuals involved, and for the church.

    .38 Special's "Hold On Loosely" approach is a lot wiser, in the days of everything online and social changes at light speed.

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    That was never a talking point during the Proposition 8 battle, for example. (I don't think it is now, either.) It was raised by opponents to Prop 8 in the sense of, "How is my gay marriage jeopardizing your traditional marriage?" Like all strawmen, it is pretty easy to knock down.
    As the best kind of California Republican, educated at the U, I'll take your word for how the Prop 8 issue transpired. I read a lot about it, I wasn't there, and I remain very uncomfortable with the backlash, having seen some of my neighbors in the online database of Prop 8 donors.

    But I think there was discussion for how gay marriage would diminish regular marriage - admittedly not predictions of specific marriages that would dissolve, but how marriage was essentially the vehicle for society to protect and nurture the best model for procreation and child rearing. Here's a Catholic piece on why traditional marriage was justifiably a protected exception to a variety of other types of marriage, models that would inherently undermine the sanctity of the traditional model:

    http://americamagazine.org/issue/487...e-sex-marriage

    On your role of defender of "the Faith", we're loosely kindred. One of my friends from college who had tried out numerous churches and decided religion was BS has gone through a crisis of faith, or rather, non-faith. When you get past the half-century mark, have a health scare or two, lose siblings / friends... who *doesn't* start to crap bricks on the essential question of life?

    I have my own faith, and sometimes "fellowship" doubters / atheists / agnostics on why it's not irrational to think there actually *could* be more to this thing than just what we know, regardless of what crazy experiences you've had with religion, and the religious. We just don't know / can't know everything, and I think there are reasons to be optimistic... beside optimism being better for you, in general.

    I don't think my friend is ready to go door-to-door with my handful of thoughts - lol - but it was nice to see a bit of relief and some "hope" return to their eyes.

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post

    I don't think my friend is ready to go door-to-door with my handful of thoughts - lol - but it was nice to see a bit of relief and some "hope" return to their eyes.
    Plus that 'dead behind the eyes' look of atheists gets pretty depressing in grocery store lines.



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  13. #103
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    As the best kind of California Republican, educated at the U, I'll take your word for how the Prop 8 issue transpired. I read a lot about it, I wasn't there, and I remain very uncomfortable with the backlash, having seen some of my neighbors in the online database of Prop 8 donors.

    But I think there was discussion for how gay marriage would diminish regular marriage - admittedly not predictions of specific marriages that would dissolve, but how marriage was essentially the vehicle for society to protect and nurture the best model for procreation and child rearing. Here's a Catholic piece on why traditional marriage was justifiably a protected exception to a variety of other types of marriage, models that would inherently undermine the sanctity of the traditional model:

    http://americamagazine.org/issue/487...e-sex-marriage

    On your role of defender of "the Faith", we're loosely kindred. One of my friends from college who had tried out numerous churches and decided religion was BS has gone through a crisis of faith, or rather, non-faith. When you get past the half-century mark, have a health scare or two, lose siblings / friends... who *doesn't* start to crap bricks on the essential question of life?

    I have my own faith, and sometimes "fellowship" doubters / atheists / agnostics on why it's not irrational to think there actually *could* be more to this thing than just what we know, regardless of what crazy experiences you've had with religion, and the religious. We just don't know / can't know everything, and I think there are reasons to be optimistic... beside optimism being better for you, in general.

    I don't think my friend is ready to go door-to-door with my handful of thoughts - lol - but it was nice to see a bit of relief and some "hope" return to their eyes.
    You're a good man, Ma'ake. I agree that we Mormons have mellowed out (Grown? Evolved? Reformed, sorta kinda?) over the last 30 + years. Most of that, IMO, comes from growing into a truly worldwide, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural church. We can't help but become more open and less provincial. As for Prop 8, it was a wild and woolly time. Ballot initiatives are always wild battles, and that one was on steroids. I am glad it is fading farther and farther into the past.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Plus that 'dead behind the eyes' look of atheists gets pretty depressing in grocery store lines.
    lol

    Listening to the liberal millennials I work with, a whole lot of disillusionment / disenfranchisement with "the system", hence Bernie Sanders' rock star status at This is the Place monument.

    Wait... "the Bern" as the 2016 version of Brigham Young?

    My minds eye... ouch, ouch, ouch.

  15. #105
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    lol

    Listening to the liberal millennials I work with, a whole lot of disillusionment / disenfranchisement with "the system", hence Bernie Sanders' rock star status at This is the Place monument.

    Wait... "the Bern" as the 2016 version of Brigham Young?

    My minds eye... ouch, ouch, ouch.
    Well after reading this.....

    http://www.sltrib.com/entertainment/...ls-offended-by


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  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    A new book that's pretty good (I have a copy myself):

    Laura Harris Hales
    A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/...=UTF8&cursor=3
    I deposed this woman once. I will not be reading this book.

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Well after reading this.....

    http://www.sltrib.com/entertainment/...ls-offended-by


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    It is shocking how "outwardly" millenials talk about "acceptance" and "tolerance" of what others bring to the table, yet they are so fucking easily offended.

    I try not to be so frustrated by the younger generation for fear I am just acting like parents of the baby boomer generation. But there is clealry a generation gap as big as the generation gap of that time and both generation gaps have to do a lot with me me me.

  18. #108
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    It is shocking how "outwardly" millenials talk about "acceptance" and "tolerance" of what others bring to the table, yet they are so fucking easily offended.

    I try not to be so frustrated by the younger generation for fear I am just acting like parents of the baby boomer generation. But there is clealry a generation gap as big as the generation gap of that time and both generation gaps have to do a lot with me me me.
    Yeah I don't get it and I've given up trying.


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  19. #109
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is from Jana Reiss's "Flunking Sainthood" blog. Some of you will know of her. She is a respected progmo.

    What one bishop offers Mormons who don’t ‘know’ the church is true

    http://religionnews.com/2016/09/09/w...urch-is-true/#

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is from Jana Reiss's "Flunking Sainthood" blog. Some of you will know of her. She is a respected progmo.
    What one bishop offers Mormons who don’t ‘know’ the church is true
    This guy sounds pretty wise. The common prescription for dealing with doubting Mormons is often unintentionally offensive, itself.

    "It must have been something that you did"

    "Read scripture and pray more"

    "Beware the Adversary works through your friends"

    I fell away in the late 70s, the common prescription helped push me toward my own future - and so I'm grateful for the nudge, in hindsight. It actually helped me, though I'm sure not in a way good Mormons would appreciate.

    To the extent this guy helps current folks who are struggling, I say it's a good thing, because that's a horrible predicament to be in, and there is far more struggling with issues of faith than many people like to acknowledge. It seems to be a central part of life. I counsel friends who doubt the existence of God because of all the bad things that happen to good people. I tell them God is not Santa Claus on steroids, and life is difficult, but there's still reason to be hopeful.

    Even Mother - err - *Saint Theresa* had her moments of doubt.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can understand how someone would want to hear something different. "Hey, I'm not one of the sheep. My questions are real. Don't just give me the same line you give everyone else."

    If I were to recommend continued study of the Book of Mormon to someone, it would be sincere advice because the Book of Mormon is a source of at least semi-regular insight and strength for me. This bishop is wise in that he recognizes what some people do and don't want to hear. But the "read and pray" advice can be very heartfelt. People should never take offense at heartfelt advice, even if they don't like it.

    I think I would also remind people that, in addition to logic and evidence, truth can come from beauty, spirituality, and experience.

    Here Brian, this one's for you:



    Very cool clip. Hadn't seen that one. Thanks.

  22. #112
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #113
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Thread about LDS with doubts

    Mormons with doubts shouldn't give up faith without 'intellectual and spiritual kicking and screaming'

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...cking-and.html

    Pretty interesting set of perspectives. I could have done without some of the speakers' statements, like "'What I have been able to understand is why people stay,' she said. She boiled it down to "character." Ouch. But overall pretty good.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-04-2016 at 12:16 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #114
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    A response to the conference linked in my last post:

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/466097...church-deserve

    I think she makes some excellent points and I noticed the same wince-inducing statements she did.

    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/466097...church-deserve


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Yet another young family we know has left the church recently, at least temporarily. A former Ute whose name everyone on this board would recognize. Returned missionary. Such a great young family.

    I don't care what the "stats" say, my eyes and my experience tell me that millennials and gen-x'ers are leaving the church in droves, my daughter included. Today's church just doesn't resonate with far too many young families. I could write a book on what I believe the major problems are, but, it starts at the top. There needs to be a seismic paradigm shift that trickles down to the general membership. For example, the bungling of Prop 8 was a killer in terms of instilling confidence in leadership for these two generations.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  26. #116
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Yet another young family we know has left the church recently, at least temporarily. A former Ute whose name everyone on this board would recognize. Returned missionary. Such a great young family.

    I don't care what the "stats" say, my eyes and my experience tell me that millennials and gen-x'ers are leaving the church in droves, my daughter included. Today's church just doesn't resonate with far too many young families. I could write a book on what I believe the major problems are, but, it starts at the top. There needs to be a seismic paradigm shift that trickles down to the general membership. For example, the bungling of Prop 8 was a killer in terms of instilling confidence in leadership for these two generations.
    I think there was a time when young people left the LDS Church that they simply became less/non-active, but it seems that more and more are asking that their names be removed. It definitely seems more black and white these days. I have a daughter who has done the same as have many of her friends. Its a bummer for me and my wife personally, but she needs to make her own choices.

    On a related note, I hope this lady has an understanding bishop and stake president.

    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45603520&nid=148
    Last edited by Scorcho; 08-30-2017 at 02:49 PM.

  27. #117
    Hard to say on this really. For my area there were about 9 people who withdrew their names when the church announced the policy on gays. All but three of them hadn't darkened the door of the church in decades. One of the three who left has come back.

    My neighborhood has a number of duplexes and so we have lots of transition with newlyweds couples. Truthfully I've been impressed with how strong in their faith they seem to be.

    So my little bit of anecdotal info would indicate that there hasn't been a lot of drop off. Really I think people have been a lot more open about their doubts and people have also been more accepting of them too. There are always turkeys but that is what I've observed.

    A woman in my ward gave a wonderful talk on Sunday about respect for other beliefs and non-beliefs. She talked about her son who stopped going and the sting but also talked about her conversion from Catholicism and her respect for that and the sting her parents must have felt too. It was a very nice "big tent" approach.


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  28. #118
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    On a related note, I hope this lady has an understanding bishop and stake president.

    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45603520&nid=148
    She shouldn't have a problem. Cannabinoids are different from marijuana, as I understand them. They aren't the part that has the psychoactive effect.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #119
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    So my little bit of anecdotal info would indicate that there hasn't been a lot of drop off. Really I think people have been a lot more open about their doubts and people have also been more accepting of them too. There are always turkeys but that is what I've observed.
    THat's been my sense too, FWIW. Overall I think there's a healthy willingness -- both on the church leadership's side and that of those with doubts -- to openly admit and discuss doubts and faith crises.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #120
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    She shouldn't have a problem. Cannabinoids are different from marijuana, as I understand them. They aren't the part that has the psychoactive effect.
    There's a lot more to her than what's in that article.

    She's said in past interviews that she has to have THC and Cannabinoids, but it's the THC that helps her most

    She plead guilty in Utah to class A misdemeanor possession in a restricted zone

    She was originally charged with felony child endangerment after witnesses called police reporting she was using in a car with a child present

    She's denied her child was in the car but admitted using in the car. She's accused police of changing witness statements in some interviews




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