The Competition: PAC-12 Hoops 2016-17

[SoCalPat]

Here's an interesting topic that was brought up today on twitter by Doug Gottlieb:

How would you rank Pac-12 coaching jobs?

What do you guys think? Do I have Utah too high? With Utah's fan support, facilities (JMHC the largest arena, plus with the new basketball facility being built), and tradition (only UCLA and Arizona can top our basketball tradition), I think the HC job here is at least top 6. The one (and fairly major) downside to the job here is location. Utah isn't exactly a hot-bed recruiting wise. But after seeing the total apathy from fans in our conference for hoops (aside from Arizona and Colorado), I have a hard time putting some of these other schools over us.

I can't speak for the entire history of every other Pac-12 school, but our history/tradition, while impressive, is largely irrelevant in today's game once on realizes that we dominated in the 1960s because Jack Gardner was ahead of his time in getting black players, and that Majerus' success was fueled significantly by Prop 48/42 kids. But we're not the only school whose history has conditions -- UCLA is very spotty past Wooden; Arizona is 90 percent Lute; Oregon is a very recent phenomenon, as is Colorado. Only fans really care about history. And unless you're a blueblood, recruits largely don't care about what you've done 40 years ago, either.

That said, our "history", arena size and basketball support -- there's a reason the JMHC is top 5 all-time in NCAA games hosted -- easily puts Utah in the top half of the league. The true negatives about our program -- lack of local talent, which coincides with no true "inner city" that breeds such talent (and keeps it home) -- have improved somewhat, but will always keep us from breaking into the top 3. Arizona, UCLA and whatever flavor of the month is out there (currently Oregon, but could be USC, could be ASU, has been Washington in spurts) will always occupy those spots.

EDIT: To get a better idea of how the Utah job was once perceived, and how it is in complete discord with how we perceive the job, read what Al Maguire told Majerus to do with the Utah job in "Napkin": Run like hell away from it. Now, a lot has changed since then, most notably, the Pac-12 invite. But even Maji himself said that Utah had the tradition of DePaul, but with a fanbase that had expectations of being Duke. Firing Giacoletti and Boylen like we did (even though justified) probably only cemented the idea some might have that we're totally irrational when it comes to hoops. I'd say after UCLA and maybe ASU, our fanbase closest resembles SEC irrationality than any other school in the league, and I say that with a large amount of pride and a measurable amount of disgust.

[SeattleUte]

Did Cal get the Bogut clone?

[Diehard Ute]

Did Cal get the Bogut clone?

Hasn't signed with anyone as far as we know.

[Utah]

ESPN ranked college basketball programs a couple years ago and had us #15.

[Utah]

I lied. They ranked us #20.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebaske...no-20-utah-tie

[Applejack]

I can't speak for the entire history of every other Pac-12 school, but our history/tradition, while impressive, is largely irrelevant in today's game once on realizes that we dominated in the 1960s because Jack Gardner was ahead of his time in getting black players, and that Majerus' success was fueled significantly by Prop 48/42 kids. But we're not the only school whose history has conditions -- UCLA is very spotty past Wooden; Arizona is 90 percent Lute; Oregon is a very recent phenomenon, as is Colorado. Only fans really care about history. And unless you're a blueblood, recruits largely don't care about what you've done 40 years ago, either.

That said, our "history", arena size and basketball support -- there's a reason the JMHC is top 5 all-time in NCAA games hosted -- easily puts Utah in the top half of the league. The true negatives about our program -- lack of local talent, which coincides with no true "inner city" that breeds such talent (and keeps it home) -- have improved somewhat, but will always keep us from breaking into the top 3. Arizona, UCLA and whatever flavor of the month is out there (currently Oregon, but could be USC, could be ASU, has been Washington in spurts) will always occupy those spots.

EDIT: To get a better idea of how the Utah job was once perceived, and how it is in complete discord with how we perceive the job, read what Al Maguire told Majerus to do with the Utah job in "Napkin": Run like hell away from it. Now, a lot has changed since then, most notably, the Pac-12 invite. But even Maji himself said that Utah had the tradition of DePaul, but with a fanbase that had expectations of being Duke. Firing Giacoletti and Boylen like we did (even though justified) probably only cemented the idea some might have that we're totally irrational when it comes to hoops. I'd say after UCLA and maybe ASU, our fanbase closest resembles SEC irrationality than any other school in the league, and I say that with a large amount of pride and a measurable amount of disgust.

I actually have to agree with a lot of this. But, it's not a bad thing - being in the top half of the Pac on a regular basis is what we should shoot for. We are not UCLA or Arizona. But we do have a population that is basketball-hungry, unlike Eugene, Phoenix, etc, and supports the team pretty well (except when we really suck). That helps recruiting too. I think long-term, Utah is clearly less desirable than Arizona, UCLA, UW, and Oregon (while the Nike money is flowing), but we are on the same page as ASU, USC, and Colorado.

[Utah]

I HATE how much we bag on ourselves. Quotes like, "Well Wilson has really good for three quarters, but man, that one quarter where he only had two series, he sure sucked. I don't like him." and "our history only boils down to one coach" and all the other self-depreciating crap out there.

Alabama was only good with Bear and Saban. UCLA hasn't been that great since Wooden. They've had ups here and there, but they've been down as well.

Look at this stat:

"Utah has suited up three consensus first-team All Americans since 1995 (Keith Van Horn, Andre Miller, Andrew Bogut), which is the same total as UCLA and more than Indiana, Illinois and Michigan have combined for in that span."

"Nine trips to the Sweet 16 in the past 35 years. Under Rick Majerus from 1989-2004, the Utes didn’t have a single losing season and reached four Sweet 16s."

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebaske...no-20-utah-tie

We aren't UCLA or Duke, but we sure as hell ain't BYU or Gonzaga either.

Over the last 50 years, we were ranked #20. That's pretty dang good considering how awful (according to everyone) this job supposedly is.

I think this is the most truth here:

"But we're not the only school whose history has conditions -- UCLA is very spotty past Wooden; Arizona is 90 percent Lute; Oregon is a very recent phenomenon, as is Colorado. Only fans really care about history. And unless you're a blueblood, recruits largely don't care about what you've done 40 years ago, either." -SoCal

I would put our school in the top half of the PAC-12, with potential to be #3, behind UCLA and Arizona.

[311ute]

Byron Wesley announced on twitter last night that he will be transferring from USC after he graduates this semester (eligible immediately). Big blow for the Trojans.

They now will lose their top 4 scorers from last year's team that went 2-16 in conference play:

Wesley (34.6 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.3 apg)
Howard (30.4 mpg, 10.8 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.5 spg)
Terrell (24.4. mpg, 9.8 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 1 apg)
Oraby (22.7 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.3 bpg)

That's A LOT of minutes and production they'll be losing.

They have a solid recruiting class coming in (1 four-star (ESPN top 100) and 3 3-stars), but things could be real ugly in LA next year.

I never really understood all the Enfield love when that hire was made. He went 15-17 at FGCU, then 26-11 with an improbable sweet sixteen run. Seemed like a "flash in the pan" type coach.


I see the league having 4 pretty bad teams next year in USC, Wazzu (who also recently lost Woolridge), Oregon St (why did Moreland declare??), and ASU. ASU is still in the running for a lot of D1 graduate transfers and if they land a couple they could be a slight step above these other 3. They're also hoping McKissick is granted another year of eligibility.


One last comment... I wonder if "JuJu" is regreting his decision now. I know I'm glad he didn't stick with his commitment here, mainly because if he had we probably wouldn't have pursued Delon.

[Applejack]

Byron Wesley announced on twitter last night that he will be transferring from USC after he graduates this semester (eligible immediately). Big blow for the Trojans.

They now will lose their top 4 scorers from last year's team that went 2-16 in conference play:

Wesley (34.6 mpg, 17.8 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.3 apg)
Howard (30.4 mpg, 10.8 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.5 spg)
Terrell (24.4. mpg, 9.8 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 1 apg)
Oraby (22.7 mpg, 8.2 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.3 bpg)

That's A LOT of minutes and production they'll be losing.

They have a solid recruiting class coming in (1 four-star (ESPN top 100) and 3 3-stars), but things could be real ugly in LA next year.

I never really understood all the Enfield love when that hire was made. He went 15-17 at FGCU, then 26-11 with an improbable sweet sixteen run. Seemed like a "flash in the pan" type coach.


I see the league having 4 pretty bad teams next year in USC, Wazzu (who also recently lost Woolridge), Oregon St (why did Moreland declare??), and ASU. ASU is still in the running for a lot of D1 graduate transfers and if they land a couple they could be a slight step above these other 3. They're also hoping McKissick is granted another year of eligibility.


One last comment... I wonder if "JuJu" is regreting his decision now. I know I'm glad he didn't stick with his commitment here, mainly because if he had we probably wouldn't have pursued Delon.

The Enfield hire was a terrible one at the time. Why not hire Archie Miller? USC basketball is a sleeping giant (ala UCLA football three years ago). I hope it stays that way.

[SeattleUte]

I actually have to agree with a lot of this. But, it's not a bad thing - being in the top half of the Pac on a regular basis is what we should shoot for. We are not UCLA or Arizona. But we do have a population that is basketball-hungry, unlike Eugene, Phoenix, etc, and supports the team pretty well (except when we really suck). That helps recruiting too. I think long-term, Utah is clearly less desirable than Arizona, UCLA, UW, and Oregon (while the Nike money is flowing), but we are on the same page as ASU, USC, and Colorado.

That Arizona has kept on trucking after Lou has really surprised me. It's an indictment of Chris Hill.

[sancho]

That Arizona has kept on trucking after Lou has really surprised me. It's an indictment of Chris Hill.

You win some, you lose some. It's not an indictment of anything.

[SoCalPat]

You win some, you lose some. It's not an indictment of anything.

Hill shares in the blame, although probably not the lion's share of it. I liked Ray Giacoletti and thought he was the victim of a lot of bad luck at Utah, but there's no way the hiring process ever should have gotten to him, much less for him to actually be hired.

[LA Ute]

I will never believe that Utah basketball's cieling is any lower than Arizona's. If they can do that in Tucson, we can sure as [heck] do it in Salt Lake. Of course, having Lute Olson for 24 years helps.

For some perspective, not that even Lute only made the Final Four 4 times in that 24-year span. That is a great record; just shows how hard it is to get that far. He made the Dance in 23 of his 24 years, missing only in his first season. We could have had a similar record if Majerus had stayed at Utah, stayed healthy and focused. With PAC-12 membership, the new facilities, and the right coach, we can have a national-caliber basketball program.

[Applejack]

Hill shares in the blame, although probably not the lion's share of it. I liked Ray Giacoletti and thought he was the victim of a lot of bad luck at Utah, but there's no way the hiring process ever should have gotten to him, much less for him to actually be hired.

On this we definitely disagree. Giac was a nice guy, but WAY out of his league. He simply didn't know how to coach/evaluate talent/gameplan, etc.

I will never believe that Utah basketball's cieling is any lower than Arizona's. If they can do that in Tucson, we can sure as [heck] do it in Salt Lake. Of course, having Lute Olson for 24 years helps.

For some perspective, not that even Lute only made the Final Four 4 times in that 24-year span. That is a great record; just shows how hard it is to get that far. He made the Dance in 23 of his 24 years, missing only in his first season. We could have had a similar record if Majerus had stayed at Utah, stayed healthy and focused. With PAC-12 membership, the new facilities, and the right coach, we can have a national-caliber basketball program.

We aren't catching Arizona. AU knows where its sport's bread is buttered. Basketball is big down there. And most college basketball players would prefer Tucson to Salt Lake. Sorry, SLC is just kind of boring.

[sancho]

We aren't catching Arizona. AU knows where its sport's bread is buttered. Basketball is big down there. And most college basketball players would prefer Tucson to Salt Lake. Sorry, SLC is just kind of boring.

That's right, they have the biosphere. It's an important part of official recruiting visits.

[LA Ute]

We aren't catching Arizona. AU knows where its sport's bread is buttered. Basketball is big down there.

Not saying we catch them, only that if they can do well from their base, so can we.

And most college basketball players would prefer Tucson to Salt Lake. Sorry, SLC is just kind of boring.

This is just crazy talk. Have you ever spent much time in Tucson? (No need to apologize for dissing Salt Lake, I haven't lived there in 30+ years.)

[sancho]

This is just crazy talk. Have you ever spent much time in Tucson?

Sounds like LA has never toured the biosphere.

[Applejack]

Not saying we catch them, only that if they can do well from their base, so can we.



This is just crazy talk. Have you ever spent much time in Tucson? (No need to apologize for dissing Salt Lake, I haven't lived there in 30+ years.)

I have never been there. But I assume it's warm. If I'm HotShotRecruit and choosing between (1) boring city that is warm and (2) boring city that is cold, I take #1.

[Applejack]

Sounds like LA has never toured the biosphere.

That is a smart move on AU's part. We should take recruits to the 49th Street Galleria.

[sancho]

We should take recruits to the 49th Street Galleria.

Float in the lake!

[Applejack]

Float in the lake!

Get some salt water taffy!~

[Diehard Ute]

That is a smart move on AU's part. We should take recruits to the 49th Street Galleria.

Since it's under construction to become a charter school (the glass towers and front have been demolished) I don't know that would impress.

[Applejack]

Since it's under construction to become a charter school (the glass towers and front have been demolished) I don't know that would impress.

Ack! Where do teens go for one-stop shopping of mini-golf and balloon animals?

[Diehard Ute]

Ack! Where do teens go for one-stop shopping of mini-golf and balloon animals?

Provo. (The Galleria hasn't been open for a decade plus)

[Applejack]

Provo. (The Galleria hasn't been open for a decade plus)

No wonder our recruiting has dried up lately.

[LA Ute]

I have never been there. But I assume it's warm. If I'm HotShotRecruit and choosing between (1) boring city that is warm and (2) boring city that is cold, I take #1.

It's not just the climate.... Nothing wrong with Tucson. I'm just saying if Arizona can attract great players there we can attract them to SLC. Recruiting is about more than the town, of course, but competing with Arizona for recruits in that regard should not be a problem. In my relatively humble opinion, of course.

[justaute]

Oh great...this place is now turning into UFN.

[DrumNFeather]

Jordan Adams is returning for his junior season.

[SoCalPat]

Not saying we catch them, only that if they can do well from their base, so can we.

This is just crazy talk. Have you ever spent much time in Tucson? (No need to apologize for dissing Salt Lake, I haven't lived there in 30+ years.)

Utah's population today is what Arizona's was in 1980. We can debate endlessly the finer points of Tucson vs. Salt Lake City, but the bottom line is this: More people emigrating west have found Arizona more desirable than Utah. I am going to assume this is spread amongst all demographics and that there is a pronounced spillover effect amongst recruitable athletes. In fact, in no decade from the start of the 20th century has Utah seen a greater growth in population than Arizona. The U of A's base is significantly greater than Utah's. That will lead to much greater success, long-term.

One more point: Arizona was at rock bottom when it hired Lute away from Iowa, where he had some pretty good success. Could Utah ever pull off a similar hire? I have strong doubts we could.

[LA Ute]

Utah's population today is what Arizona's was in 1980. We can debate endlessly the finer points of Tucson vs. Salt Lake City, but the bottom line is this: More people emigrating west have found Arizona more desirable than Utah. I am going to assume this is spread amongst all demographics and that there is a pronounced spillover effect amongst recruitable athletes. In fact, in no decade from the start of the 20th century has Utah seen a greater growth in population than Arizona. The U of A's base is significantly greater than Utah's. That will lead to much greater success, long-term.

I think I am supposed to say, "Oh, in that case never mind." But I guess I won't just yet. Salt Lake City is a more attractive place to live and go to school than Tucson. It is at least as attractive, except for recruits who dislike the cold. UA certainly wins in that department. State population doesn't decide this argument, by the way.