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Thread: The Competition: PAC-12 Hoops 2016-17

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Utah's population today is what Arizona's was in 1980. We can debate endlessly the finer points of Tucson vs. Salt Lake City, but the bottom line is this: More people emigrating west have found Arizona more desirable than Utah. I am going to assume this is spread amongst all demographics and that there is a pronounced spillover effect amongst recruitable athletes. In fact, in no decade from the start of the 20th century has Utah seen a greater growth in population than Arizona. The U of A's base is significantly greater than Utah's. That will lead to much greater success, long-term.

    One more point: Arizona was at rock bottom when it hired Lute away from Iowa, where he had some pretty good success. Could Utah ever pull off a similar hire? I have strong doubts we could.
    From 2009-2015, U of A has not picked up a single player from Arizona. Demographics, from a recruiting standpoint, are a non-issue for Arizona's current success.

    Edit: I missed Daniel Bejarano, who apparently never played for Arizona before transferring to CSU, where he had a pretty good year last year.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    From 2009-2015, U of A has not picked up a single player from Arizona. Demographics, from a recruiting standpoint, are a non-issue for Arizona's current success.

    Edit: I missed Daniel Bejarano, who apparently never played for Arizona before transferring to CSU, where he had a pretty good year last year.
    All it takes is a really great coach. There is no reason that Arizona should have a top 5 program year in and year out and probably ultimately a top 5 tradition other than the coaches it has hired. It had no tradition before Lute Olsen. None. Hardly any conference championships or NCAA appearances, no Final Fours, etc. Adolph Rupp did the same thing at Kentucky, just as Phog Allen did it at Kansas. Now Arizona is considered a permier job and its elite coach regularly attracts top ten recruits to Arizona who come because of 1) the coach and 2) the tradition. Tuscon is irrelevant.

    Utah has been blessed with some very good coaches but none in the class of Lute Olsen. Rick Majerus could have done something similar at Utah, but he didn't win a national championship, which makes a big difference. Also, his personal flaws and conflicts with Hill and the LDS press who misunderstood him and favored BYU prevented that from occurring. I also think that while Majerus was a mad scientist kind of genius he was no Lute Olsen. He couldn't recruit like Lute Olsen, and frankly Majerus was too tormented, too much of a curmudgeon, too strange, too fat, and his health was too poor. He wasn't constituted to build a dynasty that outlasted him.

    I agee 100% with Pat that Jack Gardner benefitted from being ahead of his time in recruiting blacks, as did John Wooden and Don Haskins. (I think Pat got this form me as I've been saying it for years and haven't seen it anywhere else.) Gardner could have had the lasting impact that Olsen has had at Arizona. But he probably didn't have quite enough success -- he needed to win at least one national title. Also, we had to start to compete with better situated schools for blacks, and the LDS Church gave Utah a bad reputation as a place tolerant of blacks and I'm sure our competitors pitched that against us when they recruited.

    It's the coach, stupids. Not whether Salt Lake city is a nicer place than Tuscon. However, Salt Lake's negative publicity that makes it seem too white, too insular, etc. because of the LDS church has always limited our ability to find that special coach. And of course Utah doesn't own the instate talent except the occasional loss to Duke, Stanford or UCLA, as it should, because of BYU. We've done amazing things considering the challenges.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 04-17-2014 at 10:50 PM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    From 2009-2015, U of A has not picked up a single player from Arizona. Demographics, from a recruiting standpoint, are a non-issue for Arizona's current success.

    Edit: I missed Daniel Bejarano, who apparently never played for Arizona before transferring to CSU, where he had a pretty good year last year.
    Au contraire. Arizona is a bigger school with more alumni in a more populated state, which leads to more donations. It had bigger local media deals than Utah, which leads to more money that it can funnel into recruiting and for coaches. That Arizona doesn't have a single Arizonan on its roster emphatically backs up what I've been saying all along -- UA hoops is in a much different league than Utah. It doesn't need it's own in-state talent in order to be a national player.

    Such a mindset -- ignoring the state -- will absolutely never happen at Utah. Not just because it would never fly with the High Priest Quorum segment of Utah fans, but because we do not have the resources Arizona has. That's not to say we cannot be as good or better in stretches than Arizona, but year in year out? The change for that to happen could be decades away, and might not ever happen.
    Last edited by SoCalPat; 04-17-2014 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Au contraire. Arizona is a bigger school with more alumni in a more populated state, which leads to more donations. It had bigger local media deals than Utah, which leads to more money that it can funnel into recruiting and for coaches. That Arizona doesn't have a single Arizonan on its roster emphatically backs up what I've been saying all along -- UA hoops is in a much different league than Utah. It doesn't need it's own state in order to be a national player.

    Such a mindset -- ignoring the state -- will absolutely never happen at Utah. Not just because it would never fly with the High Priest Quorum segment of Utah fans, but because we do not have the resources Arizona has. That's not to say we cannot be as good or better in stretches than Arizona, but year in year out? The change for that to happen could be decades away, and might not ever happen.
    Could Lute Olsen have accomplished at Utah what he did at Arizona? Probably not; he'd have started with more tradition and better players, but Arizona was in the Pac 10. We're in the Pac 12 now but we can't get a Lute Olsen because of who we are. A Lute Olsen wouldn't come here because Utah still has some of those hold recruiting challenges.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think I am supposed to say, "Oh, in that case never mind." But I guess I won't just yet. Salt Lake City is a more attractive place to live and go to school than Tucson. It is at least as attractive, except for recruits who dislike the cold. UA certainly wins in that department. State population doesn't decide this argument, by the way.
    Well, if Utah hoops is recruiting 60-year old white males, I guess your opinion here carries weight on the subject. Since Utah hoops is not, it's just that -- your opinion. I want to know what 17- and 18-year old black teenagers and their parents think, and I want to cater to that.

    It's not universal that warmth is preferred to cold, but the shifts in population in this country certainly suggest warm crushes cold by a wide margin. That's not to say you cannot get recruits to play in cold-weather states, but it does say a lot as to why eight of the 10 smallest states in population are cold weather states. It's also why you'll never see North Dakota or Vermont get to the Sweet 16, much less win a national championship. With people comes money, and there just aren't enough people in those states for them to compete at the top end of collegiate athletics. It's also a big reason why Arizona should be able to maintain a loftier perch than Utah over time. It will always have the larger population and more alumni, which leads to more money.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Could Lute Olsen have accomplished at Utah what he did at Arizona? Probably not; he'd have started with more tradition and better players, but Arizona was in the Pac 10. We're in the Pac 12 now but we can't get a Lute Olsen because of who we are. A Lute Olsen wouldn't come here because Utah still has some of those hold recruiting challenges.
    The great question I want answered about Utah hoops is this: How in the hell did we get Bill Foster to come to Utah from Rutgers? Talk about a culture shock. And at the first sign of success, he bolted to Duke, which was a nice little program in the 1970s, nothing close to the monster it is today. Lute stayed in Arizona for 25 years; our modern HOF coach couldn't stop cracking jokes about how weird Utah was and flirting with every job under the sun. I've resigned myself to the fact that Utah hoops will always have an identity crisis that keeps it from being permanently relevant on the national scene, and if you were OK with going 32 years between Final Fours, then that isn't such a hard reality to accept.
    Last edited by SoCalPat; 04-17-2014 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    The great question I want answered about Utah hoops is this: How in the hell did we get Bill Foster to come to Utah from Rutgers? Talk about a culture shock. And at the first sign of success, he bolted to Duke, which was a nice little program in the 1970s, nothing close to the monster it is today. Lute stayed in Arizona for 25 years; our modern HOF coach couldn't stop cracking jokes about how weird Utah was and flirting with every job under the sun. I've resigned myself to the fact that Utah hoops will always have an identity crisis that keeps it from being permanently relevant on the national scene, and if you were OK with going 32 years between Final Fours, then that isn't such a hard reality to accept.
    Hard to believe we're halfway to another 32. I hope we get one in the next 16. What are the odds?
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  8. #128
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Well, if Utah hoops is recruiting 60-year old white males, I guess your opinion here carries weight on the subject. Since Utah hoops is not, it's just that -- your opinion. I want to know what 17- and 18-year old black teenagers and their parents think, and I want to cater to that.
    Looks like we have two battling opinions -- yours and mine. How odd for a sport message board! And I'm not 60 yet, you ageist. I have only anecdotal data on what the kids you describe really want in a city. I can think of one AA former player from L.A. who told me that what drew him to Utah was "the town," Salt Lake. He saw it as clean and friendly and someplace he could feel safe, unlike his home town. But that's just one guy. Anyway, "never" is a long time. Be careful about using that word when predicting the future.

    A question: Why shouldn't fans and boosters think in terms of possibilities and lofty aspirations? The dream always precedes the reality. But you seem to want to set limits. The U. is a university on the rise. If you don't think so, take a tour of campus like I did yesterday.

    SU, your irresistible impulse to blame all of Utah's challenges on the LDS church is adorable.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    .
    SU, your irresistible impulse to blame all of Utah's challenges on the LDS church is adorable.
    Isn't it obvious that if you take away the LDS Church Salt Lake City looks a lot like Tuscon.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  10. #130
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Isn't it obvious that if you take away the LDS Church Salt Lake City looks a lot like Tuscon.
    Yes, and that would not be a good thing. And the U.of U. would look a lot like the U. of Wyoming.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #131
    UConn tends to fly in the face of a lot of this. Connecticut's weather is much, much worse than Utah's, its population is only marginally larger than Utah's (and that gap will be closed completely soon), the U has a significantly larger undergrad population, Storrs is a craphole and the nearest big city makes Storrs look like a garden spot. Also, the "monied elites" in Connecticut are much, MUCH less likely to have ties to UConn than the "monied elites" in Utah.

    The biggest differences are 1) the perceptions surrounding Utah and its culture, and 2) the fact that the recruits from the recruiting hotbeds in the Northeast are much more likely to be willing to accept bad weather.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    UConn tends to fly in the face of a lot of this. Connecticut's weather is much, much worse than Utah's, its population is only marginally larger than Utah's (and that gap will be closed completely soon), the U has a significantly larger undergrad population, Storrs is a craphole and the nearest big city makes Storrs look like a garden spot. Also, the "monied elites" in Connecticut are much, MUCH less likely to have ties to UConn than the "monied elites" in Utah.

    The biggest differences are 1) the perceptions surrounding Utah and its culture, and 2) the fact that the recruits from the recruiting hotbeds in the Northeast are much more likely to be willing to accept bad weather.
    Also, UConn has essentially become the college basketball power in the NYC area. It used to be St. John's. Yes, I'm using NYC area liberally, but UConn has recruiting advantages like UCLA and USC has, and LA and NY each should have at least one great program.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Also, UConn has essentially become the college basketball power in the NYC area. It used to be St. John's. Yes, I'm using NYC area liberally, but UConn has recruiting advantages like UCLA and USC has, and LA and NY each should have at least one great program.
    Syracuse, but UConn isn't far off.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    I am going to assume this is spread amongst all demographics...
    For whatever this is worth (probably nothing) in my own experience of living in Phoenix from '02-'07 I noticed that transplants (no matter when they arrived) we're heavily represented in these categories: older, white, from the upper midwest -- tons of fans of B1G teams. The various bowls in PHX loved getting B1G schools in town because not only do they travel well to AZ, many already lived there.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Storrs is a craphole
    The only craphole in Connecticut is New Haven. Maybe Hartford. Storrs is nice. It's just very rural.

    Anyway, the point is valid - it's not geography. It's history. For a while, the Big East was NCAA basketball, and UConn was able to get lucky and win for a while during that era.

    Upward mobility in college football and basketball is very hard. But once you are an elite program, you stay an elite program for a long time. It's the kings, dukes, counts, knights, peasants tiers that Steward Mandel likes to use.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Syracuse, but UConn isn't far off.
    UConn isn't closer to NYC than Syracuse? Conn is essentially an NYC suburb.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    UConn isn't closer to NYC than Syracuse? Conn is essentially an NYC suburb.
    I don't think it's about distance. It's about who New Yorkers root for.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think it's about distance. It's about who New Yorkers root for.
    That would be UConn more than Syracuse.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    UConn isn't closer to NYC than Syracuse? Conn is essentially an NYC suburb.

    its more of a Boston/New England suburub, at least when I lived back there. Fariefield County, New Haven, Bridgeport, think of themselves tied to New York and are Yankee fans, go further north and inland and they think of themselves as New Englanders and red Sox Pats Celtics fans.\

    I cant think that UConn will keep its level ef excellence in bball. Without the Big East, and all it rivals now in the ACC, it isgoing to be a long painful demise in both football and basketball.
    Last edited by concerned; 04-18-2014 at 12:49 PM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    its more of a Boston/New England suburub, at least when I lived back there. Fariefield County, New Haven, Bridgeport, think of themselves tied to New York and are Yankee fans, go further north and inland and they think of themselves as New Englanders and red Sox Pats Celtics fans.
    That was my experience when I lived there too.

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    The only craphole in Connecticut is New Haven. Maybe Hartford. Storrs is nice. It's just very rural.
    You need to spend more time in Connecticut. New Haven is a craphole. Bridgeport is New Haven, but without Yale. Hartford is a total craphole, and just about everything between Bridgeport, New Haven, and Hartford are crapholes. Connecticut has some really amazingly nice spots, but there are lots of extremes.

  22. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    UConn isn't closer to NYC than Syracuse? Conn is essentially an NYC suburb.
    Yes it's closer, but New Yorkers are much more tied to Syracuse than UConn, both as fans and as a draw for recruits. And parts of Connecticut are NY suburbs, but certainly not Storrs, which is much closer to Boston.

    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think it's about distance. It's about who New Yorkers root for.
    Yes, root for and affiliate with.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    That would be UConn more than Syracuse.
    Definitely not, and it's not close.

    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    its more of a Boston/New England suburub, at least when I lived back there. Fariefield County, New Haven, Bridgeport, think of themselves tied to New York and are Yankee fans, go further north and inland and they think of themselves as New Englanders and red Sox Pats Celtics fans.\
    This is exactly right. New Haven is essentially the border between New York loyalties and New England loyalties.

  23. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    The only craphole in Connecticut is New Haven. Maybe Hartford. Storrs is nice. It's just very rural.
    I thought New Haven had some really nice and beutiful elements, not least of which was Yale. Now, Bridgeport on the other hand....

  24. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    You need to spend more time in Connecticut. New Haven is a craphole. Bridgeport is New Haven, but without Yale. Hartford is a total craphole, and just about everything between Bridgeport, New Haven, and Hartford are crapholes. Connecticut has some really amazingly nice spots, but there are lots of extremes.
    Right. That's what I said. Everything in the southwest is basically a bad suburb of NYC. There is a gradual betterment as you go north or east. Storrs is a nice place, but it feels like the middle of nowhere.

    Bridgeport is New Haven, but without Yale.
    So, a little better then New Haven?

  25. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    its more of a Boston/New England suburub, at least when I lived back there. Fariefield County, New Haven, Bridgeport, think of themselves tied to New York and are Yankee fans, go further north and inland and they think of themselves as New Englanders and red Sox Pats Celtics fans.\
    I noticed this living in various parts of Connecticut during my LDS mission. You can draw a line almost down the middle of the state dividing it east and west. On the east, where Storrs is, you see a lot of Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics, and Bruins representation. On the west it's all Yankees, Giants, Knicks, and Rangers.

  26. #146
    Hallice Cooke is transferring from Oregon St.

    That program is a complete dumpster fire right now... they'll be really bad next year. With Moreland's and Cooke's departures, they lose their 5 best players.

    Unfortunately we only play them once next year.

  27. #147
    Jordan Adams changed his mind and is now going to enter the draft.

    http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/s...2014-nba-draft

    I think with Dinwiddie and now Adams Utah should be picked at no worst to finish top 4 in the league and I think second place finish would not be unreasonable either.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  28. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawminator View Post
    Jordan Adams changed his mind and is now going to enter the draft.

    http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/s...2014-nba-draft

    I think with Dinwiddie and now Adams Utah should be picked at no worst to finish top 4 in the league and I think second place finish would not be unreasonable either.
    LOL at the bRuins. They will still reload with a crazy recruiting class, but losing three guys to the draft is hard.

  29. #149
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by @DougHaller
    Lot of talent leaving the Pac-12, some early, some not. pic.twitter.com/MRYe7ivrFg
    pac12-leaving-2014.jpg

    That is an insane amount of talent.

  30. #150
    OSU fires Robinson.

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