The 2014 season football thread

[DrumNFeather]

From the Pac 12 blog...key questions to ask (I got a good chuckle out of the last one):

Utah Utes
What will be asked:

Explain how your quarterback situation sets up withTravis Wilson and Kendal Thompson and how each fits in new coordinator Dave Christensen's offense?

What should be asked: Have Utah fans underestimated how difficult it would be to move up from the Mountain West to the Pac-12?

Whimsical interlude: You've had six offensive coordinators in six years. Please match each with one of Snow White's seven dwarfs, assuming that this stupid question automatically makes you Grumpy

[UtahsMrSports]

Im likely the last guy on the Harvey Langi bandwagon, but im jumping off. Reports are saying he cancelled the face to face with whit and just called him. Adios, young coward.

[sharpone]

What should be asked: Have Utah fans underestimated how difficult it would be to move up from the Mountain West to the Pac-12?
[/FONT][/COLOR]

This keeps coming up year after year and it bugs me. I think maybe these media types ought to start showing some evidence of this claim. I've not seen comments from or met any Utah fans that thought we would come in and take the PAC12 by storm. It was the media, not the fans, that voted Utah to finish #2 in the south in 2012. It's now year 4, and by now I think we get it - the PAC12 is hard.

Unfortunately the only way to stop this from coming up is to start winning. Holding out hope that Whitt can turn that corner this year, it seemed like they were so close last year.

[sancho]

This keeps coming up year after year and it bugs me. I think maybe these media types ought to start showing some evidence of this claim. I've not seen comments from or met any Utah fans that thought we would come in and take the PAC12 by storm. It was the media, not the fans, that voted Utah to finish #2 in the south in 2012. It's now year 4, and by now I think we get it - the PAC12 is hard.

Unfortunately the only way to stop this from coming up is to start winning. Holding out hope that Whitt can turn that corner this year, it seemed like they were so close last year.

Plus, the Pac-12 we entered in 2011 was far better than the Pac-12 of 2000-2010, when the conference really was the Pac-1 in a lot of ways. We had many teams in that decade that would have fared really well in the Pac-10. ASU, Zona, WSU, OSU, UCLA, UW, Oregon, and Stanford are all quite a bit better now than they were in that decade. Cal is the only team that is much worse.

So, yeah, I had higher hopes for the Pac-12. I hoped we might make some noise early on. That was not an unreasonable hope based on where the conference was. But the hopes were dashed by horrible luck with injuries and by the fact that so many teams made such big leaps all at once.

[DrumNFeather]

This keeps coming up year after year and it bugs me. I think maybe these media types ought to start showing some evidence of this claim. I've not seen comments from or met any Utah fans that thought we would come in and take the PAC12 by storm. It was the media, not the fans, that voted Utah to finish #2 in the south in 2012. It's now year 4, and by now I think we get it - the PAC12 is hard.

Unfortunately the only way to stop this from coming up is to start winning. Holding out hope that Whitt can turn that corner this year, it seemed like they were so close last year.

It seems like it is one of the things that serves to justify not including the Non-BCSers now. They look and say "look at Utah and TCU and how they are struggling...no need to allow for a seat at the BCS table for the little guy because it is evident that they can't compete week in and week out."

Last year was maddening because you have three losses in conference by a touchdown our less, and the team ultimately misses out on a bowl game by getting it handed to them in Pullman.

But I agree...we know it is hard, and that excuse only lasts for so long without showing actual improvement in the win column.

The loss that looms the largest in the last three years is still that loss in year one to CU. Even after back to back 5-7 seasons, if Whit takes them to the inaugural Pac 12 title game, his seat isn't even warm this year, IMO.

[SoCalPat]

It seems like it is one of the things that serves to justify not including the Non-BCSers now. They look and say "look at Utah and TCU and how they are struggling...no need to allow for a seat at the BCS table for the little guy because it is evident that they can't compete week in and week out."

Last year was maddening because you have three losses in conference by a touchdown our less, and the team ultimately misses out on a bowl game by getting it handed to them in Pullman.

But I agree...we know it is hard, and that excuse only lasts for so long without showing actual improvement in the win column.

The loss that looms the largest in the last three years is still that loss in year one to CU. Even after back to back 5-7 seasons, if Whit takes them to the inaugural Pac 12 title game, his seat isn't even warm this year, IMO.

It's still warm because everyone knows we would've gotten to that title game by default, ie, USC being ineligible.

I'd say we would had to have won the P-12 title that year for Whit to still be safe after consecutive 5-7 seasons.

[LA Ute]

I have such mixed emotions about KW. I like him very much as a person and am grateful for his great successes - especially 2008. But I am also kinda mad at him for needlessly (IMO) making such a hash of the offense and for his "friends and family" approach to hiring. I hope he pulls his job out of the fire but it will be no one's fault but his own if he doesn't.

[sancho]

I have such mixed emotions about KW. I like him very much as a person and am grateful for his great successes - especially 2008. But I am also kinda mad at him for needlessly (IMO) making such a hash of the offense and for his "friends and family" approach to hiring. I hope he pulls his job out of the fire but it will be no one's fault but his own if he doesn't.

Don't join that mob.

Whittingham has so far made just one decision that was clearly bad when it was made - the co-coordinator experiment. All the other decisions were either obvious (Chow, Erickson, Christensen) or at least intriguing (Johnson, Shaw).

The ironic twist is that the easiest good decision - to hire Chow - is the single biggest contributor to the offensive hash you reference. That's where we lost our identity.

The rest of the hash came from an historic run of bad luck with QB injuries and transfers.

I'm not sure what's wrong with a coach hiring people he knows and trusts. Isn't that how most coaches work? Isn't that why Nick Saban - college football's #1 coach - just hired Lane Kiffin even though media and fans think Kiffin is an idiot? It's not like Whittingham has hired uncles and cousins who were unqualified. Christensen is definitely qualified. So is ARod. Shaw was a good player who became a law-talker. That sounds like a great combo for a coach.

You attorneys have to remember that in the real world, sometimes bad things happen without anyone being at fault.

[sancho]

And here's the media poll:

http://pac-12.com/article/2014/07/22...40723_28315056

Utah picked 5th in south.

[DrumNFeather]

With today being the Utah portion of the P 12 Media Day. What is the one burning question you would want to know from KW heading into this season?

[LA Ute]

Don't join that mob.

Whittingham has so far made just one decision that was clearly bad when it was made - the co-coordinator experiment. All the other decisions were either obvious (Chow, Erickson, Christensen) or at least intriguing (Johnson, Shaw).

The ironic twist is that the easiest good decision - to hire Chow - is the single biggest contributor to the offensive hash you reference. That's where we lost our identity.

The rest of the hash came from an historic run of bad luck with QB injuries and transfers.

I'm not sure what's wrong with a coach hiring people he knows and trusts. Isn't that how most coaches work? Isn't that why Nick Saban - college football's #1 coach - just hired Lane Kiffin even though media and fans think Kiffin is an idiot? It's not like Whittingham has hired uncles and cousins who were unqualified. Christensen is definitely qualified. So is ARod. Shaw was a good player who became a law-talker. That sounds like a great combo for a coach.

You attorneys have to remember that in the real world, sometimes bad things happen without anyone being at fault.

Most of your points are fair enough except the idea that the Shaw and Wilson Johnson hires were "interesting." They certainly were, but so are train wrecks. Those are both crazy-gamble hires that raise worrisome questions about the guy who made them.

Bottom line: I'd be thrilled to be eating crow in 6 months.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Most of your points are fair enough except the idea that the Shaw and Wilson Johnson hires were "interesting." They certainly were, but so are train wrecks. Those are both crazy-gamble hires that raise worrisome questions about the guy who made them.

Bottom line: I'd be thrilled to be eating crow in 6 months.

Better start planning the menu right now

[DrumNFeather]

Here's a link to the videos of KW and the player interviews: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...y-Central.html

KW mentioned Booker by name as a guy that could have a big impact this year and he also noted when asked about Brian Blechen that he is 100% back and has his weight down. Hopefully that means he'll be a productive member of the football team this year.

[Diehard Ute]

Most of your points are fair enough except the idea that the Shaw and Wilson hires were "interesting." They certainly were, but so are train wrecks. Those are both crazy-gamble hires that raise worrisome questions about the guy who made them.

Bottom line: I'd be thrilled to be eating crow in 6 months.

I think many coaching hires are crazy gambles. So much of coaching is how that coach fits in with the other coaches the program etc.

I think the Shaw hire is looking ok these days. I don't know if anyone saw his interview with Dave Fox this week, but it was good. One of the things he touched on was depth, and how this season they finally feel like they have some depth in the secondary.

If anything I think that's the biggest issue with the program....we had little high quality depth when we made the conference jump. In our old league our depth was sufficient....but after the jump it wasn't and as we all know, that's a 3-5 year fix at best IMO.

[sancho]

Those are both crazy-gamble hires that raise worrisome questions about the guy who made them.

No. Shah always made sense and still does. BJ was a gamble, but it was not crazy at all. Reasonable fans were excited to see it. There were some really mad fans who would have been unhappy with anyone short of Chip Kelley. The media - local and national - liked the hire. Very few people thought Whittingham was crazy over it.

Bottom line: I'd be thrilled to be eating crow in 6 months.

We all want Utah to succeed, but the next 6 months will not tell us any more than we already know about who Kyle Whittingham is. We've been with him long enough to know what we have. If he is fired someday, it won't be because he's a poor coach.

[SoCalPat]

No. Shah always made sense and still does. BJ was a gamble, but it was not crazy at all. Reasonable fans were excited to see it. There were some really mad fans who would have been unhappy with anyone short of Chip Kelley. The media - local and national - liked the hire. Very few people thought Whittingham was crazy over it.



We all want Utah to succeed, but the next 6 months will not tell us any more than we already know about who Kyle Whittingham is. We've been with him long enough to know what we have. If he is fired someday, it won't be because he's a poor coach.

Reasonable fans in BJ's instance were myopic fans who justify everything Kyle does with the response, "He knows more about football than you do, so I'm fine with the move." The reasonable fans whose voices and .02 I trust were very leery and skeptical of the move. I didn't like the move because if it didn't work, the backlash (fairly) would be unleashed on a former Ute great. The end result was disastrous -- he should have been getting his feet wet elsewhere with a move back to Utah in his future, not vice-versa.

Hiring Shah made sense 15 years ago, not after he's been out of the game for 15 years.

If Kyle is fired after this season, it will be in large part due to the brain dead coaching hires he's made over the past 5 years. Show me a coach who has pulled as many out-of-left-field hires as Kyle has.

[sancho]

Show me a coach who has pulled as many out-of-left-field hires as Kyle has.

I don't follow assistant coaches closely enough, but I'm guessing it would not be hard to find other coaches who have pulled 1-2 "out-of-left-field" hires.

Stop treating the offensive coordinator position like it's rocket science. Johnson didn't need to get his feet wet. He was fine. He'd still be our coordinator (and a beloved coordinator at that) if not for multiple QB/WR/TE injuries.

Someone else just reminded me that perception is reality. That's true in BJ's case. Nevermind that he was doing fine with play calling and recruiting. The narrative is that we went 5-7 twice on his watch, so he must not have been ready. The fact that we'd have also gone 5-7 with Jim Harbaugh doesn't matter.

[SoCalPat]

I don't follow assistant coaches closely enough, but I'm guessing it would not be hard to find other coaches who have pulled 1-2 "out-of-left-field" hires.

Stop treating the offensive coordinator position like its rocket science. Johnson didn't need to get his feet wet. He was fine. He'd still be our coordinator (and a beloved coordinator at that) if not for multiple QB/WR/TE injuries.

Someone else just reminded me that perception is reality. That's true in BJ's case. Nevermind that he was doing fine with play calling and recruiting. The narrative is that we went 5-7 twice on his watch, so he must not have been ready. The fact that we'd have also gone 5-7 with Jim Harbaugh doesn't matter.

Norm Chow going 8-5 with Jon Hays as his starting QB says all I need to know about how valuable experience is with your coordinators.

Brian was so bad in his first year as OC, we brought Dennis Erickson in out of retirement. This is how bad the offense was under Brian -- with a bowl berth on the line in 2013, we play Arizona at home. The Wildcats had given up 49, 54 and 66 points in their other three league road games. They would give up 48 against Nevada, and nearly 40 PPG against FBS teams. And Utah scores 24, with offensive personnel that were either healthy and/or established. There is no evidence to suggest Brian "was fine" as OC. None. Other teams have injuries and keep on rolling, or at least don't suffer indignities such as back-to-back losing seasons like Utah experienced for the first time in nearly a quarter century.

I'll throw another bad hire on the KW woodpile -- Dan Finn.

[sancho]

Norm Chow going 8-5 with Jon Hays as his starting QB says all I need to know about how valuable experience is with your coordinators.

There is no way to know what Chow would have done in 2012 or 2013. His experience doesn't seem to be moving mountains in Hawaii. We also have no way of knowing what BJ would have done with a few breaks.

with a bowl berth on the line in 2013, we play Arizona at home

I'm not gonna go look up how many points people scored on CU in 2011, but I know we only scored 14 in that game.

Other teams have injuries and keep on rolling

I hear this a lot, but I don't think it's true. Injuries, especially to the QB, often have a huge effect on team performance.

[LA Ute]

Hiring Shah made sense 15 years ago, not after he's been out of the game for 15 years.

Yes. That specific gamble looks like it might - might! - be working out, but IMO it is not credible to say it was anything but a huge gamble to hire a guy who had never coached in D-1, let alone in the PAC-12, and who had been out of football (playing or coaching) for 10+ years, to be the position coach for a PAC-12 program. Now, it does appear that Kyle is learning to make more experience-based and performance-based hires, like Christensen and the new OL coach. I am really hoping the light went on in time.

[sancho]

Yes. That specific gamble looks like it might - might! - be working out, but IMO it is not credible to say it was anything but a huge gamble to hire a guy who had never coached in D-1, let alone in the PAC-12, and who had been out of football (playing or coaching) for 10+ years, to be the position coach for a PAC-12 program. Now, it does appear that Kyle is learning to make more experience-based and performance-based hires, like Christensen and the new OL coach. I am really hoping the light went on in time.

The most important duty (by far) of an assistant coach in college football is recruiting. My undestanding is that Coach Whittingham thought Shah would make a good recruiter. I guess we'll have to see if that's true.

If LA Ute were an amazing recruiter, he would be a good hire, even if he had never watched a game of football in his life.

[LA Ute]

Turning back to the all-consuming Harvey Langi drama, it looks like he's looking at Stanford and USC now:

https://mobile.twitter.com/DougKimme...88086272700416

This is getting even weirder. At this point, if I were Whit I'd just say good luck to Harvey and move on. I care even less than before about what the guy decides to do.

[sancho]

This is getting weirder. At this point, if I were Whit I'd just say good luck to Harvey and move on.

This is not him being weird. This is him being smart. He has a chance to pick a program now. Might as well shop around before making what will be a huge decision for him. Frankly, after all the fan/media attention, it might be a good idea for him to get out of state.

Whitt just has to be patient and see what happens. Clearly, we'd like to have him, but our plans aren't dependent on it.

[sancho]

The most important duty (by far) of an assistant coach in college football is recruiting. My undestanding is that Coach Whittingham thought Shah would make a good recruiter. I guess we'll have to see if that's true.

If LA Ute were an amazing recruiter, he would be a good hire, even if he had never watched a game of football in his life.

Thinking about this, I agree with you. To grab someone based on charisma alone is a big gamble, since recruiting is also about connections and relationships.

[kccougar]

Turning back to the all-consuming Harvey Langi drama, it looks like he's looking at Stanford and USC now:

https://mobile.twitter.com/DougKimme...88086272700416

This is getting even weirder. At this point, if I were Whit I'd just say good luck to Harvey and move on. I care even less than before about what the guy decides to do.

It's not very weird. Vai's article made it clear that Harvey's Mom would prefer he play at Stanford. Sometimes you have to jump through some hoops to appease your mother before you do what you want to do.

[USS Utah]

Norm Chow going 8-5 with Jon Hays as his starting QB says all I need to know about how valuable experience is with your coordinators.

Chow had ahealthy John White IV, Shawn Asiata at fullback and a better O-line.

[LA Ute]

It's not very weird. Vai's article made it clear that Harvey's Mom would prefer he play at Stanford. Sometimes you have to jump through some hoops to appease your mother before you do what you want to do.

kc, you know I like you, but what are you trying to say? Neener-neener, Langi's mom wants him to play at Stanford even more than at Utah? Come on, man. Anyone who follows the thread of what Harvey has reportedly said sees odd thought processes here. He wants a more LDS-spiritual environment, so he wants BYU. OK, makes sense. Now he is considering Stanford or USC? He's going to find less of that environment there than at the U.

[kccougar]

kc, you know I like you, but what are you trying to say? Neener-neener, Langi's mom wants him to play at Stanford even more than at Utah? Come on, man. Anyone who follows the thread of what Harvey has reportedly said sees odd thought processes here. He wants a more LDS-spiritual environment, so he wants BYU. OK, makes sense. Now he is considering Stanford or USC? He's going to find less of that environment there than at the U.

Not intended to be neener-neener at all. The Utefans.net contingent that posts here try to paint me as some Jason Franchuck dude, but I try not to troll (much) here. Just providing some context to the rumors today that Harvey was visiting other P12 schools. In Vai's article announcing Harvey's intention to transfer away from Utah, Vai included quotes from Harvey's mother saying that if he wasn't going to be at Utah, she would prefer he be at Stanford instead of BYU. With that in mind, it makes sense that Harvey was at least giving some consideration to Stanford or other schools before officially deciding on BYU.

It's all academic in any event - Harvey's mother is now quoted as saying that Harvey will be at BYU when fall camp starts.

[SoCalPat]

Chow had ahealthy John White IV, Shawn Asiata at fullback and a better O-line.

And no one pegged Asiata for being a major contributor on offense before the season started. What Chow did with Asiata speaks to the experience you like to see with coordinators. Chow played chess with opposing defenses; Brian was trying to play checkers.

Better O-line? Any O-line with Tim Davis was going to be better than one coached by Dan Finn, another one of Kyle's questionable hires.

[sancho]

Chow played chess with opposing defenses

You and I have very different memories of 2011.