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Thread: NY Times: Dehlin and Kelly facing Excommunication

  1. #1

    NY Times: Dehlin and Kelly facing Excommunication

    Might as well post this here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/us...=fb-share&_r=1

    This will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  2. #2
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I'm just really sorry to see it come to this for both of these folks.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #3
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    So as an outsider I ask, how does this help the LDS church?

  4. #4
    I just don't understand the move. It does nothing to help the TBM, as they already viewed the two as heretical. However, for those on the fringe, it confirms the heavy handedness of leadership and destroys what little faith they have left. This is a lose-lose situation.

    The church has bungled the OW situation from the start and now they think this will make it better? I think the church is undoing what little good they have garnered from the inoculation essays, by trying to silence these two. This is absolutely the worst move they could have made.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    So as an outsider I ask, how does this help the LDS church?
    It doesn't. Plain and simple.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I'm just really sorry to see it come to this for both of these folks.
    Same here, but at the end of the day, it is about as surprising as the sun rising in the east. At least in the case of Kelly. I am not familiar with the gentleman in this story.

  7. #7
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    So as an outsider I ask, how does this help the LDS church?
    It doesn't, at least from a PR perspective. But disciplinary decisions are not based on PR concerns, or at least shouldn't be, IMO. I wish the leaders in these cases had not done this. I also wish Dehlin and Kelly hadn't gone straight to the New York Times.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    Same here, but at the end of the day, it is about as surprising as the sun rising in the east. At least in the case of Kelly. I am not familiar with the gentleman in this story.
    I've met John Dehlin. A very kind man, in my experience, and seemingly very sincere. Last I heard he had decided to return to church activity, but that was a year ago, I think, and I haven't really followed him.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-11-2014 at 03:42 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #8
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    NY Times: Dehlin and Kelly facing Excommunication

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It doesn't, at least from a PR perspective. But disciplinary decisions are not based on PR concerns, or at least shouldn't be, IMO. I wish the leaders in these cases had not done this. I also wish Dehlin and Kelly hadn't gone straight to the New York Times.
    It seems to me the reason it was done was as much PR as anything else. From someone looking through the window it strikes as a "shot across the bow" to others.

    Now for my questions. Is it common to do such things via email or letter from someone you've never even met? Seems a rather impersonal and callous way to start such a serious action.

    I'm no longer religious, but when I was my church was such a polar opposite from this that it's hard for me to wrap my mind around these things so I'll be asking questions

  9. #9
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm completely up in the night, but I doubt this occurs if we are still under Gordon B. Hinckley's Leadership. I get the sense that Thomas S. Monson is slightly more of a hard-liner than was his predecessor. Not by much, but probably just enough to notice some subtleties.


    And while it appears very doubtful, I hope we never get to witness a Boyd K. Packer First Presidency.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    What is TBM?

    I'm not sure it's completely lose-lose, though I'm sure there are costs. Dehlin gets a certain amount of credibility from the fact that he is LDS. I can imagine people being confused by any of his stances or advice that are not in line with LDS doctrine. He will either stop preaching things counter to LDS doctrine, or he will have to preach them from a position of less trust and influence as an excommunicated member. Similarly for the ordain women founder. If excommunicated, her website loses some significance.

    But the real point isn't strategy. The issue is that the LDS Church is an organization for those who share core beliefs. There is a ton of room for those who are struggling with those beliefs or even opposed to those beliefs, but there is no room for those who are openly teaching a different set of beliefs. Whether or not these two are in that latter category is for some poor high council to decide.

    I think the Church has done alright with the ordain women movement. They did the prayer, and they broadcast the priesthood session. They have been rather accommodating. It was also clever to make them protest with the loonies in the protest circle. I think that is the main reason they are not planning to protest in person again. When these educated, faithful Mormon women looked around and saw that they were part of that group, they felt out of place. Just my conjecture - I don't even have anecdotal evidence on that.
    Nailed it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I can thank this board for introducing me to him a number of months ago when someone posted some long retort to one of his somethings or other. He claims not to know his stake president; seems likely that he did not return to church activity, not that it matters at all here.
    yeah, as of April's General Conference, he was out again.

    He is a special case, IMO, because he has actually been given an audience with church leadership on multiple occasions and continues to maintain that the church doesn't care about him.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  12. #12
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't know. If I started preaching things to the members in my ward that were counter to church doctrine, I'd get a letter too. It happens. These two just happen to be high profile, so it looks like a public statement.



    The letter has to come from a local leader. It seems that this man does does not know any of his local leaders. He seemingly cares about being a Mormon, but he apparently is not actively engaged with his Mormon congregation. When my sister-in-law decided to leave the Church, she had a visit from her local bishop to make sure she really wanted her name removed. They didn't know each other at all.
    Why not bring it in person?

  13. #13
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Maybe it should have been in person. I'm not sure either party thinks it was a big deal either way. In person does sound warmer, though.
    I don't know. The Tribune's article seems to counter that.

    I'm just a firm believer in doing things such as terminating someone (which this Is the religious version of) should always be handled in person.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58...women.html.csp

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Maybe it should have been in person. I'm not sure either party thinks it was a big deal either way. In person does sound warmer, though.
    She is claiming on her website that she cant attend due to moving out of the area and they are conspiring against her. (Her story has a lot of holes)

  15. #15
    What a joke. That the Mormon church excommunicates is archaic and contrary to its message

    There is no freewill in your church, ultimately.

  16. #16
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    She is claiming on her website that she cant attend due to moving out of the area and they are conspiring against her. (Her story has a lot of holes)
    She's in Utah and moving to Kenya with her husband per the Tribune, but that doesn't address the initial contact being via email

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    What is TBM?
    True believing mormon. I know that some people view this as a pejorative term, but I do not. I view it as a quick way to differentiate regular church-going mormons from cafeteria/new order mormons. I realize that not everyone falls into one of those two categories...

    I'm not sure it's completely lose-lose, though I'm sure there are costs. Dehlin gets a certain amount of credibility from the fact that he is LDS. I can imagine people being confused by any of his stances or advice that are not in line with LDS doctrine. He will either stop preaching things counter to LDS doctrine, or he will have to preach them from a position of less trust and influence as an excommunicated member. Similarly for the ordain women founder. If excommunicated, her website loses some significance.
    I will agree that their credibility was increased by their membership status, but at this point they stand on their own principals. In fact, I think that this move actually bolsters their cause by giving them essentially martyr status.

    But the real point isn't strategy. The issue is that the LDS Church is an organization for those who share core beliefs. There is a ton of room for those who are struggling with those beliefs or even opposed to those beliefs, but there is no room for those who are openly teaching a different set of beliefs. Whether or not these two are in that latter category is for some poor high council to decide.
    I think the outcome of those meetings have already been decided.

    I think the Church has done alright with the ordain women movement. They did the prayer, and they broadcast the priesthood session. They have been rather accommodating.
    The let women pray movement was before and separate from OW. The broadcasting of the priesthood session but not allowing women to fill empty seats in the meeting itself seems like a slap in the face to me. Going to the priesthood session was never about watching the session. It was about equality. The only steps the church has made is to print the nine auxiliary women leader's pictures next to the 100 or so men leader's pictures in the May Ensign centerfold.

    We are each entitled to our differing view of how the church is reacting to the situation, but I find little progress on true equality in the church.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    So as an outsider I ask, how does this help the LDS church?
    It doesn't. The LDS Church thought it could bully them, and they went to he New York Times with their letters. Bad bet. Hubris is why it happened.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    It doesn't. The LDS Church thought it could bully them, and they went to he New York Times with their letters. Bad bet. Hubris is why it happened.
    looks like by running to the media this time and other times, Dehlin and Kelly are making a similar bet.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    looks like by running to the media this time and other times, Dehlin and Kelly are making a similar bet.

    Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk
    John and Kelly already won. There is no bad outcome here for them. I'm so jealous.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  21. #21
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Here are the rules from the Church Handbook of Instructions:


    When a Disciplinary Council Is Mandatory


    A disciplinary council must be held when evidence suggests that a member may have committed any of the following transgressions....

    Apostasy

    As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

    1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.

    3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.

    4. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.

    Priesthood leaders must take disciplinary action against apostates to protect Church members. The Savior taught the Nephites that they should continue to minister to a transgressor, “but if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people” (3 Nephi 18:31; see also Mosiah 26:36).

    Total inactivity in the Church or attending another church does not constitute apostasy. However, if a member formally joins another church and advocates its teachings, excommunication or name removal may be necessary if formal membership in the other church is not ended after counseling and encouragement....

    Notice and Scheduling

    A presiding officer should not schedule a disciplinary council until (1) he has had adequate time to determine the relevant facts and (2) he and the transgressor and the aggrieved parties have had adequate time to give unhurried consideration to the consequences of the transgression.

    The presiding officer gives a member written notice of a disciplinary council that will be held in his behalf. This notice is addressed to the member by his full name and is signed by the presiding officer. It states:


    “The [stake presidency or bishopric] is considering formal disciplinary action in your behalf, including the possibility of disfellowshipment or excommunication, because you are reported to have [set forth the charge in general terms, such as ‘been in apostasy’ or ‘participated in conduct unbecoming a member of the Church,’ but do not give any details or evidence].


    “You are invited to attend this disciplinary council to give your response and, if you wish, to provide witnesses and other evidence in your behalf.


    “The disciplinary council will be held on [date and time] at [place].”


    Two Melchizedek Priesthood holders deliver the notice to the member personally and privately with courtesy and dignity. The members who deliver the notice must give the clerk of the disciplinary council a signed statement certifying that the member was notified and describing how he was notified.


    If the notice cannot be delivered in person, it may be sent by registered or certified mail, with a return receipt requested.


    A member who is incarcerated when a council is to be held is notified as specified in the preceding paragraphs, with one exception: since he will not be able to attend, he is not invited. However, the letter should invite him to send evidence in his behalf, including a written response about the crime with which he has been charged and, if applicable, convicted. The letter may also invite him to tell how he feels about continued fellowship or membership in the Church.

    So ideally the notice is served personally, but service by mail is OK. I wonder why that method was chosen here.

    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-11-2014 at 06:07 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #22
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Here are the rules from the Church Handbook of Instructions:



    So ideally the notice is served personally, but service by mail is OK. I wonder why that method was chosen here.

    One was served, supposedly, via email.

  23. #23
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    One was served, supposedly, via email.
    [insert shrug emoticon] Either they weren't reading the handbook or there was some reason they did it that way. Of course, only one side in these episodes is able to talk about the process, so we need to keep a few grains of salt around.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    John and Kelly already won. There is no bad outcome here for them. I'm so jealous.
    It will be very interesting to see how this impacts their respective movements. For Dehlin, I have no doubt that he helped numerous people with his podcasts and othere ventures (though he did shut down the group gatherings for various reasons). He did say on his mostos page today that he made his own path to this outcome and he requires no pity, which means (at least to me) that he expected this outcome all along. A self fulfilling prophecy perhaps?

    For Kelly, she becomes a symbol of her cause...and I suspect that the narrative will now be very different from that group than it was previously...and maybe, just maybe, a little more honest. (This is not to say that the motives of some weren't sincere, but I have to wonder if their mission statement doesn't change just a little bit.

    I'm not sure either side should declare victory on this one just yet...this is just day 1.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  25. #25
    Five-O Diehard Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    [insert shrug emoticon] Either they weren't reading the handbook or there was some reason they did it that way. Of course, only one side in these episodes is able to talk about the process, so we need to keep a few grains of salt around.
    Certainly.

    Given given the high profile nature of the cases it's just surprising to see things not handled with kid gloves IMO

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Certainly.

    Given given the high profile nature of the cases it's just surprising to see things not handled with kid gloves IMO
    My guess is Bednar. Seems like a first class asshole

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    My guess is Bednar. Seems like a first class asshole
    I have had some very personal experiences with him, and he helped me through a very difficult time and situation in my life. He had no reason to help me. He didin't know me at all. He stopped what he was doing, focused all of his attention and energy on me, and helped me.

    In my experience, he is not what you describe.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  28. #28
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Certainly.

    Given given the high profile nature of the cases it's just surprising to see things not handled with kid gloves IMO
    Call me naive, but I tend to think that the top-level GAs don't reach down into the local level on things like this. I suspect that if they did, such matters might be handled a differently and might not happen at all. Just my speculative opinion.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Call me naive, but I tend to think that the top-level GAs don't reach down into the local level on things like this. I suspect that if they did, such matters might be handled a differently and might not happen at all. Just my speculative opinion.
    You are naive. They don't get ex'ed without someone from the church office building requesting the situation.
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    I have had some very personal experiences with him, and he helped me through a very difficult time and situation in my life. He had no reason to help me. He didin't know me at all. He stopped what he was doing, focused all of his attention and energy on me, and helped me.

    In my experience, he is not what you describe.
    I don't doubt that on a personal basis, anyone can be influential. However, he strikes me as packer, cubed.

    I look at Mormonism generally and think, you can't possibly be a true believer, right? The body of evidence is so overwhelming that you simply have to suspend rational thought to be a true believer. Practicing out of habit/culture/utility? I 100% understand and endorse that.

    But believe this nonsense? Come on...
    Last edited by Viking; 06-11-2014 at 07:07 PM.

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