Last edited by Viking; 06-11-2014 at 07:47 PM.
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
I suppose it depends on what body of evidence you want to look at. I don't know if I've said it here before, but for some people they have a hard time reconciling the past, I have a hard time denying the present.
I find guys like Richard Bushman who remain very active LDS - I believe he is a Patriarch - which isn't a calling that you can really even do if you aren't a 'true believer', like a lot of other callings. That is a tough one to fake in my estimation. If there was a guy you'd expect to be a social Mormon or whatever because of his vast knowledge of the history of the church, it might be him... but he's not. I'd love to talk to him about that someday.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I actually have a pretty good familiarity with how ward, stake, area and general authorities interact. I think you are dead wrong. But I will ask: do you have any basis for your statement?
This is the official church statement:
I just don't see any reason to believe the authors of this statement are lying or dissembling.Church Responds to Church Discipline Questions
June 11, 2014
Mormon Newsroom (Utah)
"The Church is a family made up of millions of individuals with diverse backgrounds and opinions. There is room for questions and we welcome sincere conversations. We hope those seeking answers will find them and happiness through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Sometimes members' actions contradict Church doctrine and lead others astray. While uncommon, some members in effect choose to take themselves out of the Church by actively teaching and publicly attempting to change doctrine to comply with their personal beliefs. This saddens leaders and fellow members. In these rare cases, local leaders have the responsibility to clarify false teachings and prevent other members from being misled. Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters.
"Actions to address a person's membership and standing in their congregation are convened after lengthy periods of counseling and encouragement to reconsider behavior. Ultimately, the door is always open for people to return to the Church."
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...line-questions
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-11-2014 at 11:15 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Why does a religion need to police its members?
So a church that is highly centralized. It also purports that is leaders are the authority in doctrine is going to let local leadership excommunicated high profile members over doctrine issues?
-keep in mind this is a church where if someone is excommunicated they can't have their blessings restored without getting the authority from salt lake.
The higher echelons on the church routinely send doctrinal and administrative letters to all is wards and control everything even what lessons are taught.
-They have a history of pushing down excommunication (see the Sept 6)
-if you are divorced and want to marry in the temple you have to get authorization from the president of the church.
If a 18 year old kid has sex and his local leaders don't think he should wait a year to go on a mission he still has to get permission from salt lake.
It seems very plausible that this church would abdicate its apostasy purging to local leaders 《rolls eyes》
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
I read elsewhere that Alan Rock Waterman received a church court summons as well over the weekend. This is way too coordinated to have originated at the local levels.
I'm secretly hoping for seven more so the great 2014 purge can be referred to as John and Kate plus eight.
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
He runs a blog called pure Mormonism. I'm not that familiar -- here's a brief explanation from a mosto podcast he was on.
http://mormonstories.org/rock-waterm...ure-mormonism/
He posted on a facebook group:
I just heard! And I can confirm that this purge is coming from the top leadership because my bishop delivered the ultimatum to me which he said came from an area Seventy. I have not mentioned it until now because I have not yet heard from my Stake President. (Like John, I have never met my SP either.) I was given the option to stop blogging or resign, otherwise face excommunication.
According to Church law, accusations must originate from a local member. I have a quote around here somewhere from Joseph Smith where he tells the Twelve they are not to interfere in local branches. But since when has the modern hierarchy ever considered the rules apply to them?
I was reading a few non-Salt Lake articles about this and found this on nbcnews.com: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...cation-n129151
It claims that the number of ex-communications in the church each year is "likely" between 10,000-20,000. That seems really, really high, doesn't it?
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Back of envelope math: Let's say 10 million members. 10,000 exes per yr/10,000,000 members = 1 of of 1,000 members is exed ever year. Assume that each ward has about 500 members (on the books) and that's an average of an excommunication every other year in each ward. I guess that's not out-of-your-mind unlikely, but it still seems high.
Do you get automatically exed if you are incarcerated?
Just to throw out a curveball here........
Is "Ordain Women" now on the list of groups that will cause you to fail a TR interview if you associate, affiliate, agree with blah blah blah?
I read the church's statement posted by LA Ute; and this whole thing makes me sad as well. This group reminds me of Martin Harris and the classic "Monkey and the Peanuts/Banana/Walnuts/however your sunday school teacher taught it"
I don't know anything about this other than what's been published, but yes, that is weird. If is is coordinated from SLC, it seems kinda dumb to do it that way from a PR standpoint. I just don't think the official statement is a lie. (I know Mike Otterson personally so I will admit my bias.) I also don't think Dehlin and Kelly are victims. They know what they are doing and they've always known the risks. Dehlin in particular is not a sympathetic figure in my opinion.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
People get excommunicated who aren't really in any ward, and you wouldn't know about.. We have a close friend, born and raised in rural Utah, went to BYU undgrad and on a mission. Went to columbia law shcool works in NY, came out as gay. Got legally married, and it was in the paper. Somebody in Utah saw it, notified his bishop in NY, and he was excommunicated, even though he hadnt been to church in a long while and I assume wasnt tithing. But he was devastated and has had a very hard time dealing with it, because it is in his blood and family.
Last edited by concerned; 06-12-2014 at 08:42 AM.
Kate Kelly was just on Radio From Hell.
She certainly did not play a victim, but rather is upset with how this has come about.
Per Kate's interview
She moved from Virginia to Provo in the last few weeks. Kate said shed been in her Virginia ward for the past year. She said she'd never once had any discussions with her bishop regarding Ordain Women. He never questioned her, cautioned her or said anything to her about it.
Kate said she spoke with her bishop just before she left and he wished her a good move and said nothing more.
Kate said because of this she was shocked when she received the email from that same bishop advising her she would have a hearing in 3 weeks with either disfellowship or excommunication on the table.
Kate said the hearing is 3 weeks away in Virginia. She said her records have a "move hold" placed on them so she cannot do anything outside of her Virginia ward (I don't know how that stuff works so I'm just relaying what she said)
Kate said she cannot return for the hearing due to personal, financial and a family medical reason. Kate said she was offered the chance to submit a letter, and being an attorney she is preparing a brief on her own behalf.
She came across as very articulate and very passionate about her belief in Christ and the LDS church. She also said she's a bit surprised that this occurred after she left that ward, when they knew she would be unlikely to return and attend a hearing.
Here's what I could find:
When a Disciplinary Council May Be Necessary
Serious Transgression
Formal Church discipline may be necessary for any member who commits a serious transgression. As used here, serious transgression is defined as a deliberate and major offense against morality. It includes (but is not limited to) attempted murder, forcible rape, sexual abuse, spouse abuse, intentional serious physical injury of others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, robbery, burglary, theft, embezzlement, sale of illegal drugs, fraud, perjury, and false swearing.
Abortion
Presiding officers carefully review the circumstances of members who have been involved in abortions. Formal discipline may be necessary for members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, or encourage abortions. However, Church discipline should not be considered for members who were involved in an abortion before they were baptized or because (1) the pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest, (2) the life or health of the mother was in serious jeopardy, or (3) the fetus was known to have severe defects that would not allow the baby to survive beyond birth (see 17.3.1). Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.
Transsexual Operation
Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer informs him of this counsel and advises him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.
When a Disciplinary Council Is Mandatory
A disciplinary council must be held when evidence suggests that a member may have committed any of the following transgressions.
Murder
As used here, murder refers to the deliberate and unjustified taking of human life. It requires excommunication. It does not include police or military action in the line of duty. Abortion is not defined as murder for this purpose. If death was caused by carelessness or by defense of self or others, or if mitigating circumstances prevail (such as deficient mental capacity), the taking of a human life might not be defined as murder. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.
Incest
As used here, incest refers to sexual intercourse between a parent and a natural, adopted, or foster child or a stepchild. A grandparent is considered the same as a parent. Incest also refers to sexual intercourse between brothers and sisters. It almost always requires excommunication. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary. If a minor commits incest, the stake president contacts the Office of the First Presidency for direction.
Child Abuse
As used here, child abuse refers to a sexual offense against a child or physical abuse of a child. If priesthood leaders learn of or suspect child abuse, they follow the instructions in 17.3.2. If a minor abuses a child, the stake president contacts the Office of the First Presidency for direction.
Apostasy
As used here, apostasy refers to members who:
1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
4. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.
Priesthood leaders must take disciplinary action against apostates to protect Church members. The Savior taught the Nephites that they should continue to minister to a transgressor, “but if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people” (3 Nephi 18:31; see also Mosiah 26:36).
Total inactivity in the Church or attending another church does not constitute apostasy. However, if a member formally joins another church and advocates its teachings, excommunication or name removal may be necessary if formal membership in the other church is not ended after counseling and encouragement.
Serious Transgression While Holding a Prominent Church Position
A disciplinary council must be held for a member who commits a serious transgression while holding one of the following prominent Church positions: Area Seventy; temple, mission, or stake president; patriarch; or bishop (but not branch president). The term serious transgression is defined in 6.7.2.
Transgressor Who Is a Predator
A disciplinary council must be held for a member who commits a serious transgression that shows him to be a predator with tendencies that present any kind of serious threat to other persons.
Pattern of Serious Transgressions
A disciplinary council must be held for a member who demonstrates a pattern of serious transgressions, especially if prior transgressions have resulted in Church discipline.
Serious Transgression That Is Widely Known
A disciplinary council must be held for a member who commits a serious transgression (as defined in 6.7.2) that is widely known.
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-12-2014 at 08:48 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
On her site she claimed that her Bishop refused to send her records...anyone who has worked in the Clerk's office knows the Bishop has little involvement in that, and I think it is speculative on her part to use the word refuse on her site, so it is interesting that she's now using a more technical term. I suspect that the Bishop is being compelled by the stake pres on this one...so while her surprise may be warrented, I'm not confvinced we can firmly say that the bishop has nefarious intentions (yet).
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.