We only have Kate's side of the story (she seems to be taking any and all requests to speak about this). And before I really comment on this, let me say that in general, if I disagree with someone, I am often quick to accuse them of being an attention hungry troll. I do not think that this is the case at all with KK. I believe that she is sincere in her efforts.
All that said, I have learned that in general, people who are disgruntled or upset over something have a tendency to stretch the truth. So I always take them with a grain of salt.
I do not believe for a second this tale of this letter coming out of nowhere. If it turns out I am wrong, ill own it. But she knew this was coming.
I agree 100%. I love how she had not received any consternation from her bishop the whole time she has organized the OW movement. When she left the ward the bishop said that he had enjoyed her in the ward and wished her the best. Then as soon as she is gone he calls a church court. Definitely not coordinated from higher up.
And while that may be true, you're basing that on nothing but speculation on your part (and I'd guess some hopefulness that your version is correct)
As for taking interviews, Radio From Hell is a very obvious place her to be interviewed, for anyone who knows that show.
Lol. I am not cheering for any outcome in this.
Nor am I just speculating aimlessly. If what she says is true, it would simply be unheard of to just summon someone to DC on grounds of apostasy with at least one warning and or attempt to get them back to the "strait and narrow" as we Mormons like to say. This is having some experience in DC hearings and from talking to people who have gone through them, as well as reading numerous accounts from those who have
Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 06-12-2014 at 09:33 AM.
The problem right now is that everyone is speculating...from OW to here to the parties involved, there is just a ton of speculation here (myself included) and I suspect there are a lot of ins and outs here that nobody really is aware of. (More speculation) I cannot imagine that this decision, no matter what level it was made on, was done willy nilly (as is being speculated in some circles).
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Monson isn't doing this. By in the know accounts, Monson is senile. And Boyd K P. is using all his effort just to breathe (although if they called a quorum he'd get on the line to vote to excommunicate) . Look deeper. Look at who is speaking on women's role in the Church these days. That would be Oaks. And I'm sure Bednar has something to do with it as well.
Last edited by Two Utes; 06-12-2014 at 10:07 AM.
Im currently a ward clerk, and bishops can request that a hold be placed on individual records so they can't be moved from the ward. We did this recently with a couple who was working on getting back into full fellowship, and moved right before it was all finalized.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
I've been in the same spot. My point was that the Bishop wasn't just doing this willy nilly, and this notion that he "refused" to do so (from the OW website) is a speculative stretch. Also, my point was just that he's not involved in every record that goes in and out which I think is asserted in the refusal claim.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Yeah. If it was him making the decision to hold the record and initiate the discipline and yet he treated her as she claims she did on the way out, then he is a spineless weasel. I think it's more likely that he was acting on orders from above. How high above is the question. Stake Prez, Area Prez, or SLC? We may never know.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
All we can do is speculate. I'll do some now: It is easy to imagine a local leader (bishop or SP) going "up the line" with questions about how to handle thorny issues. That happens all the time. For example, a bishop asks his SP for advice all the time. SPs ask their area authority seventy for guidance on tough issues. I've seen letters go up to the Area Presidency with questions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. What we don't know in these cases is what direction the communications went and who initiated them. The timing of these does seem too close to be coincidental.
All this procedure aside, any church has the right to discipline its own members. Dehlin has been waiving a big red flag for years and is clearly a guy who loves drama, especially when it surrounds him. I've seen him in action. He's no martyr. Kelly, however, will be seen as a martyr by a great many people.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
While she had a meeting on the 5th, The official confirmation of her "informal" probation was a May 22nd email from the stake president (which is on the Tribune website)
It mentions demonstrating things over a period of time. Now maybe I'm just operating on a different timeline than the LDS church, but 3 weeks seems to be a rather short period of time, especially when someone is moving across the country during that time. (And that was obviously known by those involved)
I am guessing there are many factors behind this, one of which is the fact that each individual stake likely handles things differently since the LDS church mostly is run via lay people, and thus each group is likely operating on their own interpretations of things.
One way or the other, the timing certainly seems suspect no matter which way you look at it.
Just a reminder that no one has been excommunicated yet, and it's not a foregone conclusion. The letters that are sent out have to say it's a possibility. While I think there's a good possibility they will be exed (especially Dehlin) it hasn't happened yet.
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
Big winner in this story so far:
The Salt Lake Tribune.
Peggy Fletcher Stack lives for stories like this. As of right now, there are 2100+ comments and it has been front and center on their webpage today.
Adding to the timeline (From the DNews), Kate left Virginia on May 10th, 5 days after meeting with her stake president and 12 days before the letter confirming she was on probation. She was served with her notice of the hearing a full month after moving.
If Richard and Claudia Bushman, and Laurel Thatcher Ulrich were professors at byu in 1992 and not at Columbia and Harvard, respectively, perhaps today we would talk about the 'September Nine'.
Rock Waterman runs the puremormonism.blogspot.com web blog. His Bishop told him that the Area President/Regional Rep/Area 70 (whatever they are now called) has directed him to hold disciplinary hearings for Rock, and that he must either take down his website, resign from the church, or get excommunicated. Sancho can hate him because he represents Stanford and Northern California.
Kate Kelly as recently as last December was told in a meeting with her Bishop and Stake President that she is doing nothing wrong and has no need to fear going to a disciplinary council because they see no need for one. She moved away from Northern Virginia area to Provo, Utah, three weeks ago and will soon move to Kenya where her husband will continue his research. Her Bishop in Virginia, who told her she had nothing to worry about, refused to forward her records to her new Ward and seemingly waited until after she moved to issue the summons.
Note that, as a woman, Kate Kelly can be excommunicated by a bishop, while Dehlin and Waterman can only be excommunicated by a Stake President and the Stake High Council. Kate Kelly gets slapped on the way out the door by the very unequal structure she sought to change.
Dehlin is an interesting case. For years he has been a vocal supporter of those people going through a faith crisis. He posted his personal cell phone number on his Facebook page and would urge people to call him while he was driving to conferences, etc. He is a tireless advocate for LGTBQ individuals. He pushes to find ways for those of us who feel outside of the orthodoxy/culture to remain active and feel comfortable in the church. He plays a large role in me remaining active in the church (despite my unbelief), and I know I am not alone. Hundreds of thousands of people download his Mormon Stories, Mormon Matters, and other podcasts and thousands of others remain active in the church due to his StayLDS.org website and forum.
This shot across the bow is an obvious statement against anybody who dares openly question the church, its beliefs, its leaders, or its policies. Dallin H Oaks wasn't kidding when he said, "It is wrong to criticize church leaders, even when the criticism is correct". In the foundational days of the church, the First Law of the Gospel was "...faith in The Lord, Jesus Christ", as stated in the Fourth Article of Faith. Sadly this has been replaced by "The First Law of the Gospel is Obedience". This idea was floated by Bruce McConkie and was stated recentlt by Pres Monson (in his General Conference talk where he told the story about setting a field on fire).
What worries me about this situation is that it will give cover to a witch hunt. My wife emailed the Relief Society President an email, in confidence, detailing a list of her questions. I know for a fact that she was discussed in Ward Council. She received a reply from the RSP asking whether she could have the Bishop schedule an appointment with my wife to answer any questions. But will my wife end up incriminating herself somehow, or giving up information that they try to use against her? Will they tell her that she is an apostate and doesn't 'support the Brethren' because she strongly supports marriage equality and advocates for gender equality? Will they attempt to humiliate her and put her through an emotional wringer, just because they can?
The institutional church doesn't want the people on the fringe, or even those who want to have a healthy, open dialog about religion. They only want people who believe exactly the way they want them to believe, or else keep their mouths shut. Each of you bow your heads and say "Yes".
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
FWIW I've attended a number of LDS disciplinary councils. Offhand I can think of three where no action was taken, and several more where a lesser action than excommunication was taken. All of the people involved came back into full church activity, as far as I know. (There's one person I lost track of.)
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Wowzers. Where to even start here?
First, there are a lot of unsubstantiated claims here. A woman can be ex'd by a bishop while a man has to go through the Stake Pres? Im gonna need a source.........
Second, there is a big difference in asking your leaders questions/bringing up concerns and blatantly starting demonstrations to change church policy and refusing to take no for an answer. There are not going to be excommunications due to people raising concerns and asking questions. If you have concerns/questions/change proposals, there are channels for addressing them. KK chose to disregard them all, began openly recruiting people to her cause and refused to stop.
I don't know Ulrich, but Bushman is a 100% faithful member of the church and a stake patriarch. So I am not so sure about your hypothesis.
He's actually been all over the map regarding his beliefs and his approach. I know that he has helped as many people out of the church as he has helped stay in (probably more). He describes himself as "administering to" people with doubts. He loves attention. He talked his way onto the Today Show to criticize Mitt Romney for being too cozy with Evangelical Christians during the 2008 election cycle, and stated he was representative of mainstream Mormon thinking on that issue. Again, he's pretty far from being a martyr. He seems more like a narcissist to me.Dehlin is an interesting case. For years he has been a vocal supporter of those people going through a faith crisis. He posted his personal cell phone number on his Facebook page and would urge people to call him while he was driving to conferences, etc. He is a tireless advocate for LGTBQ individuals. He pushes to find ways for those of us who feel outside of the orthodoxy/culture to remain active and feel comfortable in the church. He plays a large role in me remaining active in the church (despite my unbelief), and I know I am not alone. Hundreds of thousands of people download his Mormon Stories, Mormon Matters, and other podcasts and thousands of others remain active in the church due to his StayLDS.org website and forum.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell