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Thread: The Kyle Whittingham Thread

  1. #91
    The thing that makes KW's situation difficult is that he has one year left on his contract. You cant let him be a lame duck next year, so you have to decide at the end of this year whether to give him an extension or not. If you do, for how long and how much. Even a one year extension makes KW a lame duck. That is the difficult decision for CH it seems to me. If KW had two or three years left on his K, the decision would be much easier.

  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    The thing that makes KW's situation difficult is that he has one year left on his contract. You cant let him be a lame duck next year, so you have to decide at the end of this year whether to give him an extension or not. If you do, for how long and how much. Even a one year extension makes KW a lame duck. That is the difficult decision for CH it seems to me. If KW had two or three years left on his K, the decision would be much easier.
    Sure would be nice if we could win some games and make the decision easy.

  3. #93
    Why does everyone think KW's contract is up at the end of 2015? I read his contract a few years ago and 8 wins gets him an automatic extension to 5 years. The Utes won 8 games in 2011. That would put his contract up at the end of 2016.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Why does everyone think KW's contract is up at the end of 2015? I read his contract a few years ago and 8 wins gets him an automatic extension to 5 years. The Utes won 8 games in 2011. That would put his contract up at the end of 2016.
    I forgot about that; I hope you are right; makes a big difference. Because we have a much more favorable schedule next year and a senior qb, you really want to give KW the oppty to coach it (at least i would).

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Stupid Lobos. I was thinking of 2004, not 2003.
    But by "everybody" you surely don't mean the second team defense? Recall the Colorado State game of 2004 when the starters were sent back in after the Rams scored a few times.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    But by "everybody" you surely don't mean the second team defense? Recall the Colorado State game of 2004 when the starters were sent back in after the Rams scored a few times.
    You mean after we were up 56-10 at the end of the third quarter? Those second (third in reality) teamers gave up some points and that was what worried you and makes you think Urban wouldn't be a good transition coach?

    Urban knew he had to have style points back then. He had his targeted margin of victory, and even though some people thought he should pull Alex etc at half, he rode the horse into the 4th almost always to make sure that we would get enough props in the press to get into the BCS game.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by CoolBreeze View Post
    You mean after we were up 56-10 at the end of the third quarter? Those second (third in reality) teamers gave up some points and that was what worried you and makes you think Urban wouldn't be a good transition coach?

    Urban knew he had to have style points back then. He had his targeted margin of victory, and even though some people thought he should pull Alex etc at half, he rode the horse into the 4th almost always to make sure that we would get enough props in the press to get into the BCS game.
    Reading comprehension can be difficult.

    It would be silly to worry about a hypothetical.
    Last edited by USS Utah; 10-01-2014 at 10:35 PM.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    Reading comprehension can be difficult.

    It would be silly to worry about a hypothetical.
    It's not that hard. In fact I'm really good at it. You spend a few posts trying to talk about how Urban might not be any better than KW at a transitional team. Northwest says 2003 is awesome and wishes team was more like that. Only person to say "everybody" in a few pages when he talks about everybody even the backups. You come along and point out that "everybody" gave up points to CSU, again implying Urban's teams weren't so much better than KW teams.

    What exactly did I miss?

    Look I'm glad there are conservative opinions about KW and that people say not everyone is Urban. I have no desire to stoke any fires for KW's ouster, it's pointless this early in the season. But rehashing backups from 2004 with incorrect recaps of events doesn't do much good either, imho.
    Last edited by CoolBreeze; 10-02-2014 at 08:58 AM.

  9. #99
    You spend a few posts trying to talk about how Urban might not be any better than KW at a transitional team.
    That not what I said. I said Urban's success at Utah came against an MWC schedule rather than a P5 schedule, and that there is no way to know how he would have done in Kyle's shoes.

    Northwest says 2003 is awesome and wishes team was more like that.
    And I then pointed out that the 2003 team lost at home to New Mexico.
    Only person to say "everybody" in a few pages when he talks about everybody even the backups.
    He said everybody was well-prepared and mentally tough.

    You come along and point out that "everybody" gave up points to CSU, again implying Urban's teams weren't so much better than KW teams.
    I merely pointed out that there was some concern about the second team defense by using the example of the starters being sent back in against CSU. I said nothing about the 2004 team not being so much better than any of Kyle's teams.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  10. #100
    Fair enough. If that's what you meant then I don't want to put words in your mouth.

    On the other hand, I do not recall much concern for the second team defense back in 2004, especially in garbage time when it was usually the thirds in there.

  11. #101
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

    Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

    Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.
    You give him next year to get over the hump. If we are 5-7 next with a favorable schedule and a senior qb, you have to conclude it will never happen.

  13. #103
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

    Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.
    The mindset I would like to discard is the idea that Utah can't get a top-shelf candidate (whether already well-known, or an up-and-comer). How many P5 schools are there? 60 maybe? There aren't that many HC jobs at this level out there. If Utah has an opening, there will be a lot of interest. I'm sure there are plenty of good coordinators, coaches at smaller schools, etc. who have what it takes to be a HC at this level.

    While I'm sensitive to the realities of recruiting, the idea that a school should hire someone with pre-existing ties to the program is outdated. Isn't that one of the biggest knocks on Whit - that he's only hired from within his own circle? Isn't that what has sunk the Michigan boat?

    If the Utes are looking for a coach in the offseason, I would hope that Hill casts the net more widely than just people tied to the program.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  14. #104
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    You give him next year to get over the hump. If we are 5-7 next with a favorable schedule and a senior qb, you have to conclude it will never happen.
    I'm not convinced that you can give him until next year without him showing progress this year. Progress = wins. I'm not sure Utah is going to show any progress this year. All anyone is asking for is for him to get to 6-6. It isn't an unreasonable goal.

    I don't want Utah to have to move on, but the results on the field and in recruiting are extremely disturbing. Utah's recruiting class last year was pathetically bad. The year we fire a coach, we are going to have another really bad recruiting class. If Whittingham repeats last years class that will be 3 consecutive failed recruiting classes. That is a huge concern. Whittingham has to win now, not next year.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.
    There are unknown probabilities along either path. Just because we were 5-7 two years in a row doesn't mean we don't go 9-3 next year. It's getting more and more rare in sports for people to show patience with a coach, but sometimes teams are rewarded for weathering a tough stretch. Maybe the Cowboys will be an example of that this year. Pretty much any other team in professional football would have canned Garrett by now, but for some reason Jerry Jones hasn't. We'll see what happens there.

    I do think that, due to the crazy nature of college football recruiting, it is increasingly difficult and dangerous to hold onto a losing coach. It's nuts, but college football is the most "style over substance" sport out there.

  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Utah's recruiting class last year was pathetically bad. The year we fire a coach, we are going to have another really bad recruiting class. If Whittingham repeats last years class that will be 3 consecutive failed recruiting classes. That is a huge concern. Whittingham has to win now, not next year.
    I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I'm sure there are plenty of good coordinators, coaches at smaller schools, etc. who have what it takes to be a HC at this level.
    Yes, there are thousands of people who can coach football well. But there are only dozens (if that) who have the name recognition, charisma, and luck to turn a middling P5 into a strong P5. We have 50 years of P5 history that indicates it's really really hard to move up in the college football caste system.

    We won't know who the exciting candidates are for a while, but right now, that cupboard does not look very full.

    If the Utes are looking for a coach in the offseason, I would hope that Hill casts the net more widely than just people tied to the program.
    Is there any reason to think he wouldn't? His basketball hires have never had ties to Utah, right? Urban didn't have Utah ties. Isn't Whittingham the only hire he's made from within the program? He's done a pretty good job with hires. With the exception of Krystko, he's always landed someone that people were excited about and thought highly of.

  18. #108
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?
    Look at the offers our recruits had.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  19. #109
    Our recruit rankins across the board are on a multi-year decline. We are not recruiting on a trajectory to make up any kind of talent gap- we're falling further behind. Recruit rankings don't predict the success of individual players, but composite rankings do predict the success of a team pretty well. There are always going to be 2 star gems and 4 star flops, but in general, but you really can't build a winning P5 team with two star recruits because even the good ones aren't ready to provide neccesary depth early in their college careers.


    As far as risk, I don't believe we have anything to lose on offense. We clearly have something to lose on defense. The great unknown is how well KS could maintain the defense without KW. I'm fairly confident that KS can recruit and evaluate talent on defense without Whittingham. KS (especially with an intro from DE) is our best recruiter hands down. I'm less afraid of the defensive dropoff with Sitake than I am hopeful of an offensive (and offense recruiting) upside with an offense-minded HC.

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?
    If you followed recruiting you would probably see that this should be an "up year" for Utah relative to what is to come. Getting to 6-6 this year doesn't really indicate we'll get to 7-5 in 2015 and 8-4 in 2016. If anything, this year and 2015 may be peak years for a KW led Utah. From that perspective, 6-6 does not inspire much confidence.

  21. #111
    Lost in all of the hoopla of the weekend, Kyle picked up his 80th win at Utah. Quite a way to do it.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  22. #112
    5-1 and 2-1 in the league. This seat is getting cooler...let's hope it is ice cold by season's end!
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  23. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    5-1 and 2-1 in the league. This seat is getting cooler...let's hope it is ice cold by season's end!
    It's pretty damn icy right now. We're about to play 5 ranked teams in five weeks -we're going to lose many of those games and all the bipolar fans who this morning are deciding whether they want to play in the Fiesta or the Orange bowl will flip out and call for Kyle's head for failing to recruit a quarterback, not coaching up the receivers, calling timeouts before fgs, etc.

    But the guy runs a pretty good system that takes advantage of Utah's inherent advantages (read: polynesian recruits). We're not going undefeated any time soon, but the level we're at now - competitive - is about the highest level that Utah will consistently acheive.

    I'm really enjoying this season. I feel like Mac is back - the defense is must-watch-tv while the offense allows you to quickly use the bathroom before the awesomely entertaining punt and/or field goal units take the field.

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    It's pretty damn icy right now. We're about to play 5 ranked teams in five weeks -we're going to lose many of those games and all the bipolar fans who this morning are deciding whether they want to play in the Fiesta or the Orange bowl will flip out and call for Kyle's head for failing to recruit a quarterback, not coaching up the receivers, calling timeouts before fgs, etc.

    But the guy runs a pretty good system that takes advantage of Utah's inherent advantages (read: polynesian recruits). We're not going undefeated any time soon, but the level we're at now - competitive - is about the highest level that Utah will consistently acheive.

    I'm really enjoying this season. I feel like Mac is back - the defense is must-watch-tv while the offense allows you to quickly use the bathroom before the awesomely entertaining punt and/or field goal units take the field.
    Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

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  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.
    I'm not comparing their abilities - Kyle is clearly a better coach. Mac was more of a "friend" than a coach.

    But, even a Pac-12 homer like yourself has to admit that watching our current edition of Utah Football has some eerie similarities to the teams from the 1990s (or as you would call it in Seattle, "the renaissance"):

    - Absolutely no confidence in the QB(s).
    - A running back who is so deadly that he makes you scream at the t.v. every time the ball is not simply handed to him.
    - An agressive, ferocious defensive line that scares opponents. (The OSU center may have peed his pants last night).
    - A general feeling that our best chance for a touchdown would come on an interception return.
    - Potential for special teams magic.
    - DBs that are fast, but occassionally get beat over the top because they are (a) short and (b) converted running backs.
    - Tight ends that are just for show.

    I could go on. Look, we're not Oregon; this is Utah football, and it started with Mac. Just embrace MAFU.
    Last edited by Applejack; 10-17-2014 at 01:21 PM.

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.
    This is at best a very ignorant comment; at worst pretty damn stupid.

    Utah would suck to this day if it weren't for Mac. No Urban Meyer, no Fiesta Bowl, No Sugar Bowl, no 34-31, no Kyle Whittingham and very likely no PAC 12. I get that MAC had his weaknesses as a coach, but lets try to be responsible and show even the tiniest smidgens of gratitude for saving the football program.

    Who knows, if he inherited what he left to Meyer back in 1990, maybe we are talking about a few special years.
    "The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching."
    Joseph Smith, Jr.



  27. #117
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I have a Rivals membership and usually learn something from visiting that board. But man, there are a lot of people there who think they know an awful lot about football. It's kind of amusing to read their diagnoses of exactly what is wrong and prescriptions for what exactly ought to be done. The level of detail makes it all the more amusing.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I have a Rivals membership and usually learn something from visiting that board. But man, there are a lot of people there who think they know an awful lot about football. It's kind of amusing to read their diagnoses of exactly what is wrong and prescriptions for what exactly ought to be done. The level of detail makes it all the more amusing.
    You're gonna have to give examples...can't just dangle that carrot!
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  29. #119
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.
    Calling McBride a mediocre coach is ridiculous. The guy is a good coach and Utah owes a hell of a lot to him.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  30. #120
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Kyle Whittingham Hot Seat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    You're gonna have to give examples...can't just dangle that carrot!
    It is a pay site so I really can't share too much. One example: There are multiple long posts about why stadium expansion must take place NOW and is such a no- brainer that Chris Hill is a fool for not seeing that obvious reality.

    More on topic for this thread, many posters are certain about exactly what Kyle is doing wrong and why he should be fired. Some denigrate KW and refuse to give him any credit in an almost zoob-like manner. It's a minority but a large one.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 10-17-2014 at 05:18 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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