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Thread: 2016 Presidential Election

  1. #2491
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    An unsigned editorial from that right-wing rag, the Washington Post:

    On Israel, we’re right back where Obama started

    https://t.co/qycAyR8x1U
    This is precisely what Netanyahu aimed for - get through the Obama presidency without any substantive changes occurring. Netanyahu "won", you could say. (His current dustup in Israel about corruption allegations might be a problem. 99.9% of Americans either don't know, or don't care.)

    What will be interesting to see is how Putin's Syria, and Russian support for their other key ally in the region, Iran, will clash with Trump and his advocacy / alliance with Israel.

    #1 Ute fan - I'd be interested in your interpretation of Obama merely *abstaining* from the UN vote, while Russia, the UK and the rest of the Security Council voted *for* the resolution against Israel.

    If Obama and Kerry are your least reputable sources of authority on Mideast geopolitics, is your opinion of the UK, Putin and all the rest of the nations on the Security Council even lower? Or are they more inline with your views?

    It seems for those who consider Obama and Kerry to be completely untrustworthy on Israel, the only authority to be respected is Benjamin Netanyahu. All others are varying degrees of "wrong", including a whole lot of Israel's citizens.

    One thing I don't understand among America's staunchest supporters of Israel is how they can either ignore - or perhaps just deny? - Israel's history of spying against the United States, and explicit lying to four different US presidents - of both parties - about their nuclear program.

    It's similar to the disregard/dismissal about Putin's involvement in our election.

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend... at least today".
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 12-31-2016 at 11:07 AM.

  2. #2492
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    This is precisely what Netanyahu aimed for - get through the Obama presidency without any substantive changes occurring. Netanyahu "won", you could say. (His current dustup in Israel about corruption allegations might be a problem. 99.9% of Americans either don't know, or don't care.)

    What will be interesting to see is how Putin's Syria, and Russian support for their other key ally in the region, Iran, will clash with Trump and his advocacy / alliance with Israel.

    #1 Ute fan - I'd be interested in your interpretation of Obama merely *abstaining* from the UN vote, while Russia, the UK and the rest of the Security Council voted *for* the resolution against Israel.

    If Obama and Kerry are your least reputable sources of authority on Mideast geopolitics, is your opinion of the UK, Putin and all the rest of the nations on the Security Council even lower? Or are they more inline with your views?

    It seems for those who consider Obama and Kerry to be completely untrustworthy on Israel, the only authority to be respected is Benjamin Netanyahu. All others are varying degrees of "wrong", including a whole lot of Israel's citizens.
    I think the WaPo editorial outlines it pretty well... it is easy to boil it down to a GWB-esque "if you aren't with us you are against us" sort of thinking, but I think that is wrong. The settlements aren't the only issue, and the death of a two-state solution isn't necessarily a reality, but the bumbling of the US in this matter, particularly with Kerry's speech, will be license for both sides to behave badly going forward. That is the issue.

  3. #2493
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    An unsigned editorial from that right-wing rag, the Washington Post:
    It's becoming clear to more & more people that the talk of the 2-state solution is in the same category as Israel's longstanding policy of denying they were developing a nuclear program / weapons. "The 2 state goal is what we profess publicly, forever and always." It's somewhat similar to Joseph Smith's denials about polygamy. A necessary falsehood.

    Obama and Kerry are only reflecting the growing chorus of diverse voices from within Israel that it's time for Netanyahu to either deal in good faith, or give up charade, and deal with the ramifications of admitting there won't be a Palestinian state.

    Ironically, Obama/Kerry and this Washington Post opinion piece are on the same side of trying to push for a 2-state solution, in different ways.

    More & more people are concluding it's not going to happen, and all that's left is to educate people that Israel is a Jewish state, but because of the array of enemies, it's not possible for it to be a democracy. Netanyahu is angry that more & more people are realizing there really is no Wizard of Oz... just that guy behind the curtain. It makes Netanyahu's job much, much tougher, and Israel is likely to have to deal with economic sanctions and further diplomatic isolation, ala South Africa... but at least Israel will be dealing with the rest of the world honestly.

  4. #2494
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    It's becoming clear to more & more people that the talk of the 2-state solution is in the same category as Israel's longstanding policy of denying they were developing a nuclear program / weapons. "The 2 state goal is what we profess publicly, forever and always." It's somewhat similar to Joseph Smith's denials about polygamy. A necessary falsehood.

    Obama and Kerry are only reflecting the growing chorus of diverse voices from within Israel that it's time for Netanyahu to either deal in good faith, or give up charade, and deal with the ramifications of admitting there won't be a Palestinian state.

    Ironically, Obama/Kerry and this Washington Post opinion piece are on the same side of trying to push for a 2-state solution, in different ways.

    More & more people are concluding it's not going to happen, and all that's left is to educate people that Israel is a Jewish state, but because of the array of enemies, it's not possible for it to be a democracy. Netanyahu is angry that more & more people are realizing there really is no Wizard of Oz... just that guy behind the curtain. It makes Netanyahu's job much, much tougher, and Israel is likely to have to deal with economic sanctions and further diplomatic isolation, ala South Africa... but at least Israel will be dealing with the rest of the world honestly.
    You act as if the notion of a two state solution is something new. Correct me if I'm wrong but Palestinian leaders have turned their noses up at this prospect on multiple occasions in the past. Nothing short of Israel packing up and vacating the Holy Land will ever satisfy most Palestinians and their Arab brothers.

    Many on the left use the argument that Israel and western democracies are to blame for all the unrest in that area because the creation of Israel stole land and uprooted the Palestinians from their native and rightful lands. Of course, this ignores the fact that it was the Jew's Holy Land and city (Jerusalem) over a thousand years before Islam even existed.

    Both groups should acknowledge the others rights to live in the area and peacefully coexist. How can this ever be accomplished, however, when one group refuses to respect the others religious beliefs or acknowledge their right to exist?

    Netanyahu is no saint and I'm not saying that he has a right to build new settlements on disputed areas. However, Obama's and Kerry's speech was over the top, particularly given the fact they are lame ducks and their foreign policy has created a complete cluster in the Middle East far worse than even the one the inherited.

    They have no credibility on the issue and need to stop insulting our intelligence pretending as if their ideas are something new and something Palestine and most Muslims would ultimately accept.

  5. #2495
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting collection of known info to date:

    Eight Facts on the “Russian Hacks”

    https://sharylattkisson.com/eight-fa...russian-hacks/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #2496
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Interesting collection of known info to date:

    Eight Facts on the “Russian Hacks”

    https://sharylattkisson.com/eight-fa...russian-hacks/
    I spent Thursday at work reading the 13 page report. The tag-team of APT28 and APT29 was impressive in its coordination. This was no 400 pound guy sitting on a bed.

    While its true no evidence exists of election systems being hacked - excepting the partial penetrations of Arizona's and Illinois' systems earlier in the year - it's a bit ironic that Sharyl Attkisson notes the election itself wasn't hacked, while on the same page promoting "Smear - how shady political operatives control what you see, what you think, and how you vote".

    If Hillary had won that election, wouldn't Republicans be claiming the election was determined by the release of the Access Hollywood video?

  7. #2497
    Quote Originally Posted by #1 Utefan View Post
    You act as if the notion of a two state solution is something new. Correct me if I'm wrong but Palestinian leaders have turned their noses up at this prospect on multiple occasions in the past. Nothing short of Israel packing up and vacating the Holy Land will ever satisfy most Palestinians and their Arab brothers.

    Many on the left use the argument that Israel and western democracies are to blame for all the unrest in that area because the creation of Israel stole land and uprooted the Palestinians from their native and rightful lands. Of course, this ignores the fact that it was the Jew's Holy Land and city (Jerusalem) over a thousand years before Islam even existed.

    Both groups should acknowledge the others rights to live in the area and peacefully coexist. How can this ever be accomplished, however, when one group refuses to respect the others religious beliefs or acknowledge their right to exist?

    Netanyahu is no saint and I'm not saying that he has a right to build new settlements on disputed areas. However, Obama's and Kerry's speech was over the top, particularly given the fact they are lame ducks and their foreign policy has created a complete cluster in the Middle East far worse than even the one the inherited.

    They have no credibility on the issue and need to stop insulting our intelligence pretending as if their ideas are something new and something Palestine and most Muslims would ultimately accept.
    The Palestinians have been extreme in their war cries against Israel, going back to the vow to push Israel into the sea. No question. Extremist Palestinians unquestionably have the most "mindshare", in the occupied territories.

    The mix of Jews, Christians and Muslims that existed in pre-Israel Palestine were generally peaceful, but the tensions between the groups have existed for a long time. When the Zionist movement got started, and Jews began returning home to Israel, it's not as though the land was unoccupied. Christian and Muslim Palestinians were displaced, and as the movement picked up steam and was officially sanctioned after WWII, the displacement became increasingly "involuntary".

    But Palestinians are like any other group of people - depending on the situation, they can become more or less angry, can be more or less amenable to leadership in more positive directions. There are reasonable Palestinians. I work with one. He knows the previous chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, personally.

    My colleague and his brother fled to Jordan, and eventually came to the US, attended the U, and are now US citizens. Now out of the context for 30 years, he realizes it's a toxic cauldron of extremism, for probably the majority. The number of Palestinians in the occupied territories who can be reasonable and rational on the topic of Israel is not very high. Life is very cheap for Palestinians. They have very little economic incentive to be moderate.

    It's kind of like a bigger version of the Rodney King riots in LA, but instead of peace eventually coming back - more or less - the Mayor of LA declaring the citizens of South-Central LA to be savages who aren't interested in peace and must be contained and punished for their uprising. Throw in thousands of years of tension and distrust, the more recent history of people being moved off their land, etc, and maybe it begins to make sense. (Analogies are always flawed.)

    What Obama and Kerry are saying - echoing the thoughts of most of the rest of the world - is that Netanyahu is insincere about a 2-state solution, is simply using it as leverage to slow-play the situation into the next generation. The strong perception is the Israelis would move the goalposts however far they needed to in order to maintain the status quo of slow encroachment on the West Bank, moving toward an eventual larger Israel that involves moving current Palestinians somewhere else.

    This is a topic that's hard for Americans to wrap their minds around. I don't understand why Jews would *want* to go back to Israel after WWII, when there were offers of a homeland in southern Africa or Argentina, far more desirable places to move to, without the endless conflict with neighbors you've been fighting with for thousands of years.

    Did Mormons stay in Nauvoo and slug it out with the haters? Did our Colonist forefathers stay in Europe and fight for their religious freedom? We've always had somewhere to escape to, the chance of a new beginning.

    And what we consider "normal" others consider to be somewhat crazy. The Chinese I work with really see the world differently. They don't understand the value in debating, in democracy. Debate leads to anger, which leads to conflict, which leads to violence. To them, America is a violent, tumultuous place, Americans are a violent people, with Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc, as examples. I would say most return to China, whereas Indians adjust more easily to life in America... probably in large part because of their English skills. The number of Chinese grad students we get is down, the numbers of Indians keeps increasing.

    I just had a conversation with a former colleague who now works at ARUP, who is really disturbed by the murder-suicide that occurred there a few days ago. "This would never happen in China". (Unfortunately, the stats back up that assertion.)
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 01-01-2017 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #2498
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Going back to our President Elect: has there ever been an American figure as effusive of a Russian leader as Trump is of Putin?

    I don't know if Trump is legit or playing some sort of long game on this.

  9. #2499
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    If Hillary had won that election, wouldn't Republicans be claiming the election was determined by the release of the Access Hollywood video?
    LOL. No doubt. And that Billy Bush was behind it all, at the direction of his cousins Jeb and W., funded by the Trilateral Commission.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #2500
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    I don't know if Trump is legit or playing some sort of long game on this.
    I think Trump is a natural oligarch, sees himself as the alpha-male of all alpha-males, and so when Putin praises him, he gets a stiffy. (He probably also has extensive business dealings in Russia, which is part of the reason he like Rex Tillerson.)

    Can you imagine the Trump tweets if the current Miss Universe (whoever that is) was tweeting that he's the hottest man in history? Trump is completely intuitive, with no impulse control.

    Obama has been too deliberative... perhaps with good reason. He's had to counter the stereotype of the unthinking, angry black male.

    Can you imagine the reaction if Obama had said he didn't need daily intelligence briefings because "he's a smart guy", or been bragging about grabbing women by the genitalia? Millions would be jumping up out of their armchairs, loading shotguns, looking for rope.

  11. #2501
    Pangloss, I know you've expressed no love for Edward Snowden in the past and so I thought you might enjoy this article:

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.c...den-1483143143

    Wait he isn't the swell guy and ultimate patriot he is pretending to be??!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #2502
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Pangloss, I know you've expressed no love for Edward Snowden in the past and so I thought you might enjoy this article:

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.c...den-1483143143

    Wait he isn't the swell guy and ultimate patriot he is pretending to be??!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think this is a non-partisan matter. That guy is a traitor and a scoundrel.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #2503
    My Rabbi, George Steinber-Caudill, says this article "hits the nail on the head!" I agree.

    John Kerry Nails It: Realities of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  14. #2504
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Pangloss, I know you've expressed no love for Edward Snowden in the past and so I thought you might enjoy this article:

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.c...den-1483143143

    Wait he isn't the swell guy and ultimate patriot he is pretending to be??!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks. Good article. It touches on the harm he did, calling it damage to 'sources and methods'. If they could monitize it, I suspect the number would be 10's of billions, maybe a lot more.

    youtube video of Obama If the little bastard gets a pardon from anyone, I will be very disappointed.

    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  15. #2505
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangloss View Post
    Thanks. Good article. It touches on the harm he did, calling it damage to 'sources and methods'. If they could monitize it, I suspect the number would be 10's of billions, maybe a lot more.
    I wonder how many lives were lost because
    of him?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #2506
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I wonder how many lives were lost because
    of him?
    Indeed. If the sources were human beings, I doubt they enjoyed the presumption of innocence or rule of law. I suspect the Russians mucking with the election was retaliation for the US actions they learned about from Snowden.

    Putin is KGB.

    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  17. #2507
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    From Dave Barry's Year in Review:

    *****

    In U.S. politics, the Republicans gather in Cleveland to nominate Trump, although many top party officials are unable to attend because of an urgent compelling need to not be there. Nevertheless Trump receives enthusiastic prime-time endorsements from former celebrity Scott Baio, several dozen Trump children and current Trump wife Melania, who enthralls delegates with a well-received speech in which she tells her heartwarming story of growing up as an African-American woman in Chicago. The dramatic highlight comes on the final night, when Trump, in his acceptance speech, brings the delegates cheering to their feet with his emotional challenge to “grab the future by the p—y.”

    On the Democratic side, the month gets off to a rocky start when FBI Director James Comey, announcing the results of the bureau’s investigation, reveals that when Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, her official emails, some including classified material, were basically as secure from prying eyes as a neon beer sign. Nevertheless, Comey says he is recommending that no criminal charges be brought against Clinton, because, quote, “I don’t want to die.”

    With that legal hurdle cleared, relieved Democrats gather in Philadelphia for their convention, which opens — in a bid to placate Sanders’ delegates — with the ceremonial caning of Debbie Wasserman Schultz. This is followed by several hundred speeches praising Hillary Clinton for the many accomplishments she has achieved, as well as the achievements she has accomplished, while at the same time being, historically, a woman. In her acceptance speech, Clinton calls on Americans “to join with me in building a better world for us and for our children,” adding, “or I will crush you like an insect.”

    In a media shakeup, Roger Ailes resigns as chairman of Fox News following allegations that his name can be rearranged to spell “I ogle rears.”

    http://www.miamiherald.com/living/li...123321019.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #2508
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    From Dave Barry's Year in Review:

    *****

    In U.S. politics, the Republicans gather in Cleveland to nominate Trump, although many top party officials are unable to attend because of an urgent compelling need to not be there. Nevertheless Trump receives enthusiastic prime-time endorsements from former celebrity Scott Baio, several dozen Trump children and current Trump wife Melania, who enthralls delegates with a well-received speech in which she tells her heartwarming story of growing up as an African-American woman in Chicago. The dramatic highlight comes on the final night, when Trump, in his acceptance speech, brings the delegates cheering to their feet with his emotional challenge to “grab the future by the p—y.”

    On the Democratic side, the month gets off to a rocky start when FBI Director James Comey, announcing the results of the bureau’s investigation, reveals that when Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, her official emails, some including classified material, were basically as secure from prying eyes as a neon beer sign. Nevertheless, Comey says he is recommending that no criminal charges be brought against Clinton, because, quote, “I don’t want to die.”

    With that legal hurdle cleared, relieved Democrats gather in Philadelphia for their convention, which opens — in a bid to placate Sanders’ delegates — with the ceremonial caning of Debbie Wasserman Schultz. This is followed by several hundred speeches praising Hillary Clinton for the many accomplishments she has achieved, as well as the achievements she has accomplished, while at the same time being, historically, a woman. In her acceptance speech, Clinton calls on Americans “to join with me in building a better world for us and for our children,” adding, “or I will crush you like an insect.”

    In a media shakeup, Roger Ailes resigns as chairman of Fox News following allegations that his name can be rearranged to spell “I ogle rears.”

    http://www.miamiherald.com/living/li...123321019.html
    Thanks for that link. I like Dave Barry in small doses, and this was a good one.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  19. #2509
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    From Dave Barry's Year in Review:

    *****

    In U.S. politics, the Republicans gather in Cleveland to nominate Trump, although many top party officials are unable to attend because of an urgent compelling need to not be there. Nevertheless Trump receives enthusiastic prime-time endorsements from former celebrity Scott Baio, several dozen Trump children and current Trump wife Melania, who enthralls delegates with a well-received speech in which she tells her heartwarming story of growing up as an African-American woman in Chicago. The dramatic highlight comes on the final night, when Trump, in his acceptance speech, brings the delegates cheering to their feet with his emotional challenge to “grab the future by the p—y.”

    On the Democratic side, the month gets off to a rocky start when FBI Director James Comey, announcing the results of the bureau’s investigation, reveals that when Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, her official emails, some including classified material, were basically as secure from prying eyes as a neon beer sign. Nevertheless, Comey says he is recommending that no criminal charges be brought against Clinton, because, quote, “I don’t want to die.”

    With that legal hurdle cleared, relieved Democrats gather in Philadelphia for their convention, which opens — in a bid to placate Sanders’ delegates — with the ceremonial caning of Debbie Wasserman Schultz. This is followed by several hundred speeches praising Hillary Clinton for the many accomplishments she has achieved, as well as the achievements she has accomplished, while at the same time being, historically, a woman. In her acceptance speech, Clinton calls on Americans “to join with me in building a better world for us and for our children,” adding, “or I will crush you like an insect.”

    In a media shakeup, Roger Ailes resigns as chairman of Fox News following allegations that his name can be rearranged to spell “I ogle rears.”

    http://www.miamiherald.com/living/li...123321019.html
    Probably the only saving grace of 2016 is the fact that it prompted Dave Barry to write something about it. Love it.

  20. #2510
    So I'm sitting here thinking about the notion that Donald Trump will hold nuclear codes that he alone can activate to launch us into nuclear war. It is a frightening prospect, but frankly it is a frightening prospect that ANY single person could have those codes. I get that the speed of nuclear war warrants the ability to act quickly. I just read that it is about 30 minutes for a nuke from China or Russia, 18 minutes from subs in the Atlantic.

    So, with that in mind why not give the president the ability to launch nukes without approval if nukes have been launched at us. Otherwise why not put a 'pre-emptive strike' in the hands of more than one person. Maybe the President and the Speaker of the House or some sort of bi-partisan committee.

    The guy is unstable. He can't control a Twitter account, a bank account or his Hair Club for Men account. Why do we trust him or any individual to make any sort of decision like that?

  21. #2511
    Yup. We here in Seattle are <15 minutes away from the Arctic, and we will absolutely be a first-strike target thanks to the Bangor Trident base, the carrier base at Everett, and JBLM.

    Frankly our only hope is that he will feel the weight of the responsibility, and act accordingly.

  22. #2512
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Yup. We here in Seattle are <15 minutes away from the Arctic, and we will absolutely be a first-strike target thanks to the Bangor Trident base, the carrier base at Everett, and JBLM.

    Frankly our only hope is that he will feel the weight of the responsibility, and act accordingly.
    I just re-read Sum of All Fears by Tom Clancy. In it, he stated that there is a two-man rule for a non-counterstrike nuclear launch. The 2nd person had to be in a position appointed or confirmed by congress.

    I understand it is from a fictional novel, but Clancy did some pretty thorough research for his novels.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  23. #2513
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Yup. We here in Seattle are <15 minutes away from the Arctic, and we will absolutely be a first-strike target thanks to the Bangor Trident base, the carrier base at Everett, and JBLM.

    Frankly our only hope is that he will feel the weight of the responsibility, and act accordingly.
    One good thing, the Bangor boomers are always on station. Each Ohio class sub has more fire power than was expended in WWII. That should be an effective deterrent if the adversary is sane. N.Korea on one side of the table and Trump on the other is frightening. If Kim thinks the US is about to strike, he would logically launch whatever he has before it is destroyed. It's similar to the start of WWI. Trump's tweets don't help.

    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  24. #2514
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    I just re-read Sum of All Fears by Tom Clancy. In it, he stated that there is a two-man rule for a non-counterstrike nuclear launch. The 2nd person had to be in a position appointed or confirmed by congress.

    I understand it is from a fictional novel, but Clancy did some pretty thorough research for his novels.
    I hope it's true that another set of eyes needs to confirm a launch decision. I would hope the flag officers would refuse an insane order.

    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  25. #2515
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    You crazy libs worried about Trump and nuclear war... are all crazier than he will ever be. Jesus, please get a grip.

  26. #2516
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
    You crazy libs worried about Trump and nuclear war... are all crazier than he will ever be. Jesus, please get a grip.

    We thank you for your professional opinion on the matter.

  27. #2517
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    We thank you for your professional opinion on the matter.
    I am just as crazy, but siting on the other side of the fence. Clearly, crazy is not exclusive to either side. We are not going to have a nuclear war just because Trump got elected.

  28. #2518
    Quote Originally Posted by Devildog View Post
    I am just as crazy, but siting on the other side of the fence. Clearly, crazy is not exclusive to either side. We are not going to have a nuclear war just because Trump got elected.
    I think you're right, there won't be a nuke war just because Trump is pres. But his apparent ignorance of the nuances and complexity of international diplomacy and his seeming lack of interest in it because he has such good ideas already is disconcerting.

    For example, he tweeted "North Korea just stated that it is in the final stages of developing a nuclear weapon capable of reaching parts of the U.S. It won't happen!" That is the explicit threat I meant to reference in my WWI note. Just to make you feel better, it's as dopey a thing to tweet as Obama's red line.

    If N.Korea miniaturizes a bomb and demonstrates a long-range missile, what do we do? "Bomb the shit" out of them? If I lived in Seoul, I think I'd move.

    "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so"
    - Will Rogers

    "Cyberspace is - or can be - a good, friendly and egalitarian place to meet. "

    - Douglas Adams

  29. #2519
    "Happy New Year... to my many enemies, though you lost so badly"

    "They criticized me! I reacted. I'm always going to react!" - about the Gold Star parents

    "I always knew V Putin was very smart" - last week

    "She had gained weight! We had a real problem on our hands!" - In Post-Debate Interview, Trump Again Criticizes Pageant-Winner's Weight" http://www.npr.org/2016/09/27/495611...winners-weight

    The DSM V Criteria: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1519417-overview

    More:
    1. People with NPD are extremely sensitive and insecure. They psychologically require constant compliments and acknowledgement because they do not have their own internal self-esteem. They need to get it from others.

    2. If someone does criticize them, even in a Tweet or on a television comedy show, it triggers this deep and painful lack of self-esteem and they MUST lash out to relieve the pain of the criticism.

    3. They have only two modes: They are either fully your friend and love you or you are their enemy and they will do everything to discredit you or humiliate you. They can’t help it. The pain of having someone in their circle who does not approve of them or acknowledge them, (almost constantly), is too great. (emphasis mine)

    4. There are only two ways to deal with someone with NPD, and they are both dangerous. There is no healthy way of interacting with someone with this affliction. If you criticize them they will lash out at you and if they have a great deal of power, that can be consequential. If you compliment them it only acts to increase the delusional and grandiose reality the sufferer has created, causing him to be even more reliant on constant and endless compliments and unwavering support.

    5. Because they crave the attention and approval of others they develop great capacity to engage and entertain and can be quite charismatic, even to the point of developing a cult-like following.

    6. Someone with NPD will NEVER get along with any member of the press, or any media outlet that criticizes him. (Eg, Megyn Kelly, formerly of Fox News)

    7. Someone with NPD will NEVER hire (and will fire) anyone who criticizes him. Therefore, and because they believe they know better than almost everyone else, they have a very hard time listening and taking any advice. (This explains why Trump didn't hire Romney)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richar..._13693174.html

  30. #2520
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Wikileaks Right
    NOAH ROTHMAN / JAN. 4, 2017

    Many Republicans were appalled as they watched their liberal neighbors gush over Edward Snowden’s efforts to steal documents related to American intelligence collection methods and spirit them off first to China and later Russia. Even conservatives who believe the processes through which U.S. counterterror officials had secured the information Snowden stole were overly broad acknowledged these methods were legal and had been deemed a necessity by both Republican and Democratic administrations. The adoration liberals heaped upon someone who had betrayed his oath to his country and violated dozens of laws disgusted the American right.

    The turncoat confirmed the left’s worst suspicions about the Bush administration and they adored him for it. This condition is mirrored in the Trumpian right’s newfound admiration for another nihilistic foreign intelligence asset: WikiLeaks’ Julian Assange.

    Before he became an ally of Sean Hannity, the Australian national currently living in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for fear of extradition to face charges of rape in Sweden was a darling of the American left. In 2010 and 2011, Assange’s organization released a cache of illegally-obtained secret documents revealing American methods, assets, and allies in the Afghan and Iraqi theaters. For this act of subversion, Assange was feted by individuals like The Nation’s Jeremy Scahill as the second coming of Daniel Ellsberg, of Pentagon Papers fame.

    Wikileaks revealed names of Afghan individuals working with Americans. jeopardizing their safety, making American operations overseas more difficult, and ensuring those assets who might work with the United States in the future to think twice.Taliban members allegedly used the documents to rally insurgents and reportedly murdered a tribal elder who they claimed had been exposed in the document dump. Security experts, journalistic advocacy organizations, and American defense officials were horrified by the overt effort to imperil the safety of American informants.

    At the time, conservatives were appropriately horrified by the threat to American national security posed by these leaks and their alleged source—the court-martialed and convicted spy Bradley (now going by Chelsea) Manning. They’re singing a different tune today.

    Hannity was among those who believed Assange imperiled American national security and the lives of American assets abroad and, as such, should face American justice. But that was then and this is now. On Tuesday, he traveled to London for an exclusive interview with Assange. There, the WikiLeaks chief insisted his organization had not received the information it obtained from the hacks of Democratic email accounts from the Russian government. This claim was then dutifully repeated by no less than the President-elect of the United States, Donald Trump.

    “Julian Assange said ‘a 14-year-old could have hacked Podesta’—why was DNC so careless?” Trump asked. “Also said Russians did not give him the info!”

    “The ‘Intelligence’ briefing on so-called ‘Russian hacking’ was delayed until Friday, perhaps more time needed to build a case,” Trump added.

    We see here Trump’s compulsion to latch onto whatever information confirms his priors—in this case, his wish to believe Russia is not behind the hacks of the DNC and John Podesta. This impulse has now led Trump into a dangerous and likely ill-fated open conflict with the members of the American intelligence community.

    Trump received high-level intelligence briefings during the campaign in which he was assured of the confidence of the American intelligence community’s belief that Russian military intelligence was behind the hacks of the DNC and the information’s subsequent release to WikiLeaks. He ignored their conclusions and instead substituted his own.

    “Maybe there is no hacking,” Trump asked in a presidential debate. This claim amounts to the allegation of a vast conspiracy to defraud the public orchestrated by the CIA, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Director of National Intelligence, the White House, and both congressional intelligence committees, to say nothing of the vast majority of major independent media.

    On October 7, DHS secretary Jeh Johnson and National Intelligence Director James Clapper released a statement implicating Russian intelligence in the hacks of the DNC. They followed this statement with a joint analysis report released on December 29 detailing “Russian malicious cyber activity that is targeting our country’s and our allies’ networks.”

    A bizarre alliance of conspiracy theorists, anti-American bloggers, Assange fanatics insist the hacks can be duplicated using publicly available software and claim that this absolves Russian-linked hackers. That is false, according to the firm Secure Works, which analyzed the summer attacks on the DNC.

    Their June analysis of a “spearphishing” campaign in October 2015 and May 2016 confirmed with confidence that a group operating out of the Russian Federation “on behalf of the Russian government” conspicuously targeted individuals and interests opposed to Russia. They included current and former military and government personal in the United States and Europe, NATO officials, American defense contractors and suppliers, journalists and authors, political officials, and staff working with Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. The hackers swept up access to over 1,800 Gmail accounts in 2015 alone. If this is the work of a 14-year-old, that’s a kid with a unique set of interests and a lot of free time.

    The speed with which these documents were pilfered from Democratic accounts, offloaded to WikiLeaks, and released without even a plausible cover story was remarkably brazen. Only an abiding faith that pro-Trump partisans would not care about the attack on American interests by a foreign power could have led WikiLeaks to engage in such a shamelessly blatant act of provocation on behalf of the Kremlin. That faith has been rewarded in spades.

    Republicans would do well to ask themselves to what end is Russia seeking to undermine American computer security and muck around in American politics. Do Republicans really believe that American national interests are advanced by creating friction between the White House and the intelligence community or by cleaving the United States away from its imperiled European allies? Pro-Trump partisans have some soul searching to do. They won; it’s time to govern. The subordination of intellectual honesty to the demands of partisan rigor will only make that task harder, uglier, and less likely to be successful.

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/p...ulian-assange/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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