Answer: BYU is crazy!Originally Posted by mUUser
Answer: BYU is crazy!
The truly scary part is that now predators are now aware that BYU students are much less likely to report incidents now.
I'll step out of character and call for a little caution in criticizing BYU. Sometimes allegations of date rape are false. On university campuses, too many times the accused ends up in a kangaroo court with little to no due process. So maybe this is an effort (perhaps ham-handed) to be fair?
"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The problem here is that the honor code is much more likely to have a "kangaroo court" than the alleged rapist would potentially face in a criminal court with all of the due process protections that come with that.
:doh:
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Good point.
No point.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The best policy is to take all allegations of rape seriously and to remove any barrier from someone reporting if they've been sexually assaulted. The obvious one is that there will be no repercussions, even with the honor code, for reporting a legitimate assault. Kind of like those 'no questions asked' policies that hospitals have if you want to drop off an unwanted baby.
A big part of this is really to sit back and ask what is the honor code really for? If the honor code is stepping over protecting students then it really has lost sight of its goal.
And having a policy like that would also not prohibit justice from happening, and for false accusations of date-rape to see the light of day either. I really just don't see how the honor code equalizes or provides a fair environment.
Sexual assault cases are some of the worst cases to work. They're often difficult to prove and are extremely traumatic.
Unfortunately the politics of these cases makes them even harder to investigate. In decades past law enforcement was not receptive as they should have been. That's still a work in progress.
Now in 2016 we have victim advocates who, with the best intentions, are overly zealous in saying false reports are not common.
The actuality is there are false reports. And there are far more factual unreported cases.
The average perpetrator is not a one time offender, but usually commits several sexual assaults. Often they're never caught.
In order to ensure we do catch and prosecute offenders we need to be certain victims can make a report. By opening honor code investigations for things like curfew or dress code violations that's not possible.
BYU should stay out of sexual assault cases all together. Let law enforcement do their job. If the accusation is false that too can be dealt with by law enforcement.
The honor code at BYU continues to be an antiquated system that is selectively enforced. What's the purpose? And why defend it?
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Sexual assault is a crime so I think reports ought to go straight to law enforcement. I don't know why the Honor Code Office is even involved. They don't have the tools to conduct a credible investigation. No university does (except for its police dept.).
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It's a very good question.
Obviously someone is telling the Honor Code office. The articles indicate it's BYU's Title IX folks.
But with the ability of anyone to anonymously "turn in" someone for an honor code violation it's a rather scary proposition.
BYU should likely take the higher road and not investigate the "secondary" issues surrounding alleged sexual assaults. They've certainly looked the other way more than once for others.
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The way BYU is handling this circumstances is indefensible. You shouldn't be stepping out of character on this one. BYU deserves ever bit of criticism that they get on this one.
So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
Way off point.
The honor code office is not investigating the merits of the sexual assault. They investigating whether there were any honor code violations surrounding the alleged sexual crime. And then doling out their consequences if they find any issues.
So if they discover that you were taken by knife point while walking across campus and raped in the bushes, you are probably ok.
If it is find out that you were drinking/in your dates room after midnight/wearing clothing that violates the hc the night you were raped,...well you are going to be punished by the honor code office...even if the criminal investigation determined that you were indeed raped. Sorry that you were traumatized for life, but you knowingly violated the honor code so we are going to suspend you from school.
Do you think that won't have a chilling effect on students reporting actual sexual assault?
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This story isn't directly related to the Honor Code office enforcement, but I believe that much of the mentality is the same and finds a nice life within LDS church culture. I have a friend who, despite being raised in the church, lived a very party girl lifestyle during her 20s. One night, while hanging out in a club, someone managed to sneak some roofie into her drink. So much so that she didn't make it out of the club under her own power. So much that she went into cardiac arrest somewhere between the bar and the bathroom. Emergency services managed to save her life but it took her years to recover enough to live a normal life.
About five years after this event, she became cautiously interested in participating in church activities again. She started attending church services and even met with the bishop a few times to discuss the options of full fellowship. In a move inspired by what I'm sure were the best intentions, the bishop came up with the idea to have my friend present her story in front of the youth. Poor phrasing at best, but more likely a contaminated "in the world not of the world" lens, the bishop asked her to focus on what choices regarding the Word of Wisdom that she regretted most and how she now finds safety in living the WOW. Something to that effect.
There it was. Victim shaming. She was incredibly upset about the conversation and despite my best efforts, the conversation ended her relationship with that bishop and any interest she had in church participation.
When someone is a victim of sexual assault, the victim shouldn't have to ask themselves, what sort of educational jeopardy does reporting this crime put me in.
I think it will have a chilling effect. Kinda surprised you assume I think otherwise. My first post here was simply me speculating about what BYU might be thinking.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
JIC and Dwight nail why this is a huge problem. It needs to be changed. The public backlash byu and the church gets for this is deserved.
It's despicable.
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So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
Over 90% of raped go unreported in Provo.
85% of all statistics have at least a 40% of being fabricated out of mid air
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A bigger problem is the fact that this stems from the broader church culture in Utah. How many of us grew up with a copy of Spencer W. Kimball's 'The Miracle of Forgiveness' on our shelves, or learned from it in church or seminary?
That book makes the claim that it is better for a woman to fight to the death, rather than 'lose her virtue' by being raped. This is the concept that leads women to believe that getting a 'P' in the 'V' is shameful and renders a woman 'less worthy', especially if said activity was not within the bonds of marriage AND explicitly for the act of procreation.
This is the reason why young women get to hear the awful, body-shaming lessons comparing a woman who had intercourse (particularly pre-marital) to a board with a nail hole in it, or a piece of chewed gum, or a licked cupcake, with the punchline that no worthy man would ever want her afterward. The chewed piece of gum analogy was specifically mentioned by Elizabeth Smart as the reason she never attempted to run away or to call for help, despite being in public many times during the time she was abducted.
Byu has a problem here and they deserve every ounce of bad press they get. But the truth is the church culture is one in which a tremendous and controlling amount of guilt and shame is pushed onto people regarding sex and sexuality. The honor code is merely a natural outgrowth of this culture.
That's a number that is thrown around a lot, but it's a very debatable number.
The 90% is thrown out all the time, regardless of where. Has been for years.
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I read the release that BYU put out and even on that they significantly missed the mark, even failing to address the concerns, at least as I understand them.....
"The victim of a sexual assault will never be referred to the Honor Code Office FOR BEING A VICTIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT."
Now someone correct me if im wrong, but this isnt even part of the complaints. Not one person said "I got raped and got in trouble for having sex!" Rather, it seems the honor code office, according to those complaining, is going after victims for other infractions which potentially led to the assault.
I dont know, maybe i dont make sense or im wrong, but it just really felt like a blind, ignorant response to a very serious issue.
Lots of words in this thread for a pretty simple premise: BYU is crazy.
You're not as well-informed as people who are alienated from the church but still manage to know perfectly well what goes on in youth classes and exactly how it is done now, even if their information is anecdotal and decades old.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
My wife is as orthodox and TBM as they come. She grew up in Utah County, and she told me about the chewed gum and licked cupcake lessons while we were dating(meaning well before my ascension to apostateville). So take that and stick it in your condescending pie hole.
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My wife uses it to describe herself regularly. Personally, I don't consider people describing themselves as "true blue Mormon" as an insult. Or is it used to mean something different?
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How is that not anecdotal and decades old? (assuming your wife is at least in her mid-30's)
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
Maybe he thought it True Bronco Mendenhall
No worries. Words matter and they get co-opted for different usage. I hadn't heard of the other meaning, which, I agree, would have a negative stereotype.
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No need to get personal. Please put down your gun. Let's play anecdotal experience vs. anecdotal experience. I was a counselor in our ward's bishopric for 10 years -- an unusually long time, I know. I was released last year. I went to New Beginnings every year and had my own daughter in the program until one year ago. I attended YW camp every year. I attended YW class on Sundays almost every week. I never once heard any of those analogies. My daughter has never heard one. If I had heard about anything like that I'd have gone straight to our bishop or stake leaders and reported it. I doubt you will see it in any current lesson manuals or hear it in any General Conference talk. If I am wrong, show me.
I do recall hearing the chewed gum analogy once when I was 16 or 17. I don't doubt that some leaders, probably in the least diverse, most conservative parts of the church, continue to make that mistake. All I am saying is that I think the incidence of that stuff is much reduced and that things change and they do get better -- in my experience. The church wants to change and get better. So do local leaders. They love the youth and want to help them. That has been my very recent experience. I don't know what goes on elsewhere. I am sorry that so many people report negative experiences with efforts to teach chastity. That is an indictment of the (probably well-meaning) people who made those negative experiences happen. It is not an indictment of the entire church, and certainly not the modern church or its highest leaders.
Last edited by LA Ute; 04-14-2016 at 10:54 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I think everyone is on the same page: BYU is crazy.
Where have I seen this post before?
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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