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Thread: Utah politicians do the darnedest things

  1. #1
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Utah politicians do the darnedest things

    Do we have a thread yet for the ridiculous things with our legislature?

    From the people that brought you the Zion Curtain, we have the first .05 bac DUI law.

    It will do nothing to make people safe, but will make DUI lawyers and the local government a lot of money.

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    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
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  2. #2
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Do we have a thread yet for the ridiculous things with our legislature?

    From the people that brought you the Zion Curtain, we have the first .05 bac DUI law.

    It will do nothing to make people safe, but will make DUI lawyers and the local government a lot of money.

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    We have to do something with that fancy new prison.

  3. #3
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Hooray for choice.

    Restaurants in Utah can now choose between either keeping the traditional Zion Curtain or going with a Zion Moat. Good to know the corruption of children won't occur if there are 10 feet from the bar/mixing area and the restaurant.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  4. #4
    Motorboatin' SOB Devildog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Hooray for choice.

    Restaurants in Utah can now choose between either keeping the traditional Zion Curtain or going with a Zion Moat. Good to know the corruption of children won't occur if there are 10 feet from the bar/mixing area and the restaurant.
    Well the predominant religion here makes things silly. I can't tell you how many friends I have that have stated... "He is a good guy even if he does drink". Shit fawker... he is just a good dude. I wish they could put their prejudice aside. But they can't. You know... the word of wisdom and all...
    Last edited by Devildog; 03-10-2017 at 04:22 PM.
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  5. #5

    Utah politicians do the darnedest things

    So I'm not a drinker although I play one on the internet. I fall in the category of thinking our alcohol rules in Utah are pretty silly. Thus I think the whole 0.5 rule is pretty silly.

    But this is more of a question for Diehard Ute: if you can safely operate a vehicle and pass field sobriety tests at one drink and .05 BAC what are the odds of getting caught for this? I would assume that most DUI arrests come from an accident or from swerving around on the road and getting pulled over and failing the test, right?

    So it seems the odds are low. However, if we are doing .05 then why not just say absolutely no drinking and driving period (like some European nations)?

    I don't get it.


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  6. #6
    Motorboatin' SOB Devildog's Avatar
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    The standardized "field sobriety tests" are recognized nationwide and are calculated to a .08 standard. So, how do you enforce (and win in court) a DUI where the subject demonstrated fewer clues than the standards? How exactly our legislators thought this might be enforced is a mystery.
    "We should remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best who is trained in the severest school."
    -Thucydides


    "Study strategy over the years and achieve the spirit of the warrior. Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men."
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  7. #7
    No clue why they decided to pass this.

    The law already allowed for arrest if someone was impaired with a BAC of below .08.

    DUI's below .10 are fairly rare, let alone at .05. I really don't think you'll see very many new arrests because of it. What could change is the punishment. The current law increases penalties if you're "double" the limit. This drops "double" to .10, which is an issue IMO.

    Oddly according to data published in the media this week people from .05 to .08 accounted for the least amount of DUI related fatalities in Utah. People below .05 accounted for more, the vast majority were far above .10

    Europe has far different laws and the comparison is bogus. Most countries there have a sliding scale which is non criminal at .05


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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    No clue why they decided to pass this.

    The law already allowed for arrest if someone was impaired with a BAC of below .08.

    DUI's below .10 are fairly rare, let alone at .05. I really don't think you'll see very many new arrests because of it. What could change is the punishment. The current law increases penalties if you're "double" the limit. This drops "double" to .10, which is an issue IMO.

    Oddly according to data published in the media this week people from .05 to .08 accounted for the least amount of DUI related fatalities in Utah. People below .05 accounted for more, the vast majority were far above .10

    Europe has far different laws and the comparison is bogus. Most countries there have a sliding scale which is non criminal at .05


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    I apologize for any "bogus comparison" I was just asking a question (and thought I made it clear I didn't support the law).

    For your reference here is a summary of the European laws by country. Some countries do have sliding scales but in general it seems the punishments are pretty harsh along those scales:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drun...country#Europe


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I apologize for any "bogus comparison" I was just asking a question (and thought I made it clear I didn't support the law).

    For your reference here is a summary of the European laws by country. Some countries do have sliding scales but in general it seems the punishments are pretty harsh along those scales:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drun...country#Europe


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    My issue wasn't with you, but rather our fine elected leaders who throw out "but Europe does this" without admitting they do it far differently The vast majority of those countries don't consider DUI a "crime" until .08 or .11.

    At .05 they will issue fines and license suspensions but it's not a criminal act.

    As the Utah law is currently written the punishments remain the same, they just start earlier.

    It's a class B misdemeanor, which can be up to 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine. 48 hours of jail time is mandatory, but can be exchanged for community service. Vehicle impoundment is mandatory and costs approximately $600 to get back.

    Your license is then an entirely separate civil matter and can be suspended, or revoked and an ignition interlock can be required.

    (And then there are DUI attorneys. Many who charge insane amounts to get people off...but people pay it)

    It's a stupid law. If we really want to curb DUI we should really go after repeat offenders. We also should get rid of justice courts. The justice courts being a court that is not on the record means people get two trials and two sets of motion hearings.






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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    My issue wasn't with you, but rather our fine elected leaders who throw out "but Europe does this" without admitting they do it far differently The vast majority of those countries don't consider DUI a "crime" until .08 or .11.

    At .05 they will issue fines and license suspensions but it's not a criminal act.

    As the Utah law is currently written the punishments remain the same, they just start earlier.

    It's a class B misdemeanor, which can be up to 6 months in jail and a $1,000 fine. 48 hours of jail time is mandatory, but can be exchanged for community service. Vehicle impoundment is mandatory and costs approximately $600 to get back.

    Your license is then an entirely separate civil matter and can be suspended, or revoked and an ignition interlock can be required.

    (And then there are DUI attorneys. Many who charge insane amounts to get people off...but people pay it)

    It's a stupid law. If we really want to curb DUI we should really go after repeat offenders. We also should get rid of justice courts. The justice courts being a court that is not on the record means people get two trials and two sets of motion hearings.






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    Yup.
    All of this. It's nothing more than punishing Utahns for trying to repeal the Zion Curtain laws.

  11. #11
    The other piece to this is some of Utah's other quirks.

    Our public transit system quits running before the bars close. You can't ride TRAX and stay till last call. You can't even stay until midnight usually.

    We artificially force people to make stupid decisions. The state mandates last call at 1 but then kicks everyone out at 2. So at 2 everyone is forced out of the bar. Imagine if bars could stay open until 3-4 and serve food and non alcoholic drinks.




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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    The other piece to this is some of Utah's other quirks.

    Our public transit system quits running before the bars close. You can't ride TRAX and stay till last call. You can't even stay until midnight usually.

    We artificially force people to make stupid decisions. The state mandates last call at 1 but then kicks everyone out at 2. So at 2 everyone is forced out of the bar. Imagine if bars could stay open until 3-4 and serve food and non alcoholic drinks.




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    Wedon't
    We don't think through these laws. We see them through the Jesus goggles too much: "Well, you shouldn't drink anyways, so that is your problem".

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Wedon't
    We don't think through these laws. We see them through the Jesus goggles too much: "Well, you shouldn't drink anyways, so that is your problem".
    Also if you are old enough to drink then you should be old enough to plan ahead. Be an adult and use uber/lyft or a designated driver. Why even take a chance?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I apologize for any "bogus comparison" I was just asking a question (and thought I made it clear I didn't support the law).

    For your reference here is a summary of the European laws by country. Some countries do have sliding scales but in general it seems the punishments are pretty harsh along those scales:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drun...country#Europe


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    If I'm reading this right, the majority of these countries appear to be more strict that our .08 level. I'd be interested to see any peer reviewed studies that look at the differences in safety, if any, between .05 and .08
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    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    If I'm reading this right, the majority of these countries appear to be more strict that our .08 level. I'd be interested to see any peer reviewed studies that look at the differences in safety, if any, between .05 and .08
    I heard someone make an interesting point that many of those countries have much better public transportation than we do, which is a valid factor.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    If I'm reading this right, the majority of these countries appear to be more strict that our .08 level. I'd be interested to see any peer reviewed studies that look at the differences in safety, if any, between .05 and .08
    Well many states used to be .10 and then most people switched to .08. A doctor I know said .08 is basically right between one and two drinks. The idea was you could have a single drink and not get a dui. Now that isn't the case.

    Diehard is right about public transportation with this too. It is true for all kinds of activities that take you past 11pm.

    My main point though was catching someone at .05 seems unlikely, so this law changes virtually nothing but has everyone freaking out about its stupidity and won't modify behavior.


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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Well many states used to be .10 and then most people switched to .08. A doctor I know said .08 is basically right between one and two drinks. The idea was you could have a single drink and not get a dui. Now that isn't the case.

    Diehard is right about public transportation with this too. It is true for all kinds of activities that take you past 11pm.

    My main point though was catching someone at .05 seems unlikely, so this law changes virtually nothing but has everyone freaking out about its stupidity and won't modify behavior.


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    I think that really depends on how the state decides to use it.

    The lowering of the "double the limit" punishments to .10 instead of .16 is a pretty big deal.

    The idea being someone who was .16 was impaired to the point their punishment should be more severe. Now that's changed to .10, which is a pretty big difference.

    BAC is a weird thing. I know how much it takes to get me to a .10, but only because I've helped UHP train new officers on field sobriety tests. It's far more than I would normally have. But I also have seen people drink far less and hit .05 pretty quickly.

    Devildog also made a good point, the tests are all tested for .08, so what adjustments can be made? What effect will this have in court? DUI cases are already full of technicality arguments, this may just open the door to a flood of new ones.

    I think the biggest question about this bill is why? Why the change? Data that's been made available doesn't suggest people between .05 and .08 are the issue. So why?

    Why are we so reluctant to restrict distracted driving. Utah actually rolled back the distracted driving law last year, making it easier to drive while doing other things. Things that are just as, if not more dangerous than someone at a .05 or even a .08.

    Do I think we'll see many people arrested at .05? Probably not. But our old law worked just fine for people who were impaired and below .08




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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    If I'm reading this right, the majority of these countries appear to be more strict that our .08 level. I'd be interested to see any peer reviewed studies that look at the differences in safety, if any, between .05 and .08
    The strictness is in the details.

    Many European countries treat DUI as a civil issue until it hits higher alcohol levels, then it becomes a criminal action. Utah has no such distinction.


    As for safety I would love to see such a study. Utah's statistics for DUI's and fatal traffic accidents certainly don't seem to indicate this was a safety issue.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-above-08.html

    (As a side note most every Utah police department takes blood from any driver involved in a fatal accident so that data is very accurate)


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  19. #19
    This is along the lines of what you talked about Diehard:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/5098545-1...ys-to-fix-this


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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    This is along the lines of what you talked about Diehard:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/5098545-1...ys-to-fix-this


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    Is a decent list.

    I really question the money part though.

    I'm certain there are some areas which try and use fines to balance the budget. But it's a difficult thing to do, and one I've never had a single officer tell me they were instructed to do

    The fine system in Utah is determined by the state. A $120 fine in SLC justice court is broken down in the link. 43% goes to the city. And the actual amount would barely cover the cost for an officer to appear in court for an hour on their day off.

    http://www.slcdocs.com/courts/traffi...nesDistrib.pdf

    I wish I could find out how they distribute DUI fines, but I'm fairly certain a lot already goes to prevention etc.

    As for the profiling part, that's an entirely different conversation that would take a lot of time.


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  21. #21
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This caught my attention because I live in a one-party state myself, and I think bad policy results from such an imbalance of power, no matter which party's on top.

    Utah Democrats can't see the forest for the electoral trees

    http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/feat...lectoral-trees

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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This caught my attention because I live in a one-party state myself, and I think bad policy results from such an imbalance of power, no matter which party's on top.

    Utah Democrats can't see the forest for the electoral trees

    http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/feat...lectoral-trees
    I really don't think McAdams is the candidate that article is trying to make him out to be.

    He had a very low profile no name opponent, and it wasn't a race the republicans really seemed all that interested in.

    Since being re elected he's chosen to spar with SLC officials, publicly, making waves in the process. Knowing a few people in the democratic political world of Utah I'm not sure he's really who they want to attach their cart to.

    And let's be honest, SL County voted for Clinton and against Chris Stewart. Mike Lee likely would have lost if the democratic candidate was better. (Misty Snow still got 40% which amazes me)

    I honestly don't know if the democrats have a rock start in the wings. I certainly don't think it's McAdams though.


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  23. #23
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    wow, there is a god

    CNN


    Utah Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz announces he will not seek re-election to Congress in 2018 http://cnn.it/2oOkfTy
    Last edited by Scorcho; 04-19-2017 at 09:16 AM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    wow, there is a god

    CNN


    Utah Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz announces he will not seek re-election to Congress in 2018 http://cnn.it/2oOkfTy
    Speculation is he's doing this so he can run for governor in 20/20....so your opening may be slightly off.


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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Speculation is he's doing this so he can run for governor in 20/20....so your opening may be slightly off.


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    There really isnt any question that is why. He has been eyeing the gub job for a while. having to defend Trump for 4 years would make it much more difficult, as his town hall proved.

    Basically the same reason that Romney did not run for re election as governor when he wanted to run for president.

    IMHO, Chaffetz is a phony, hypocritical self-promoter. Doesnt have an ounce of integrity, as everyone who has ever worked with or for him will tell you.

    somehow I hope Spencer Cox beats him for the nomination.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    There really isnt any question that is why.
    Ugh, what a nightmare for Utah. I hope there is an opposition ad featuring all Chaff's missed FG's in college.

  27. #27
    I think Spencer Cox would get far more votes


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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I think Spencer Cox would get far more votes


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    He may not be far right enough to get out of the primaries.


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  29. #29
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    smh

    Jason Chaffetz's campaign team registers two domain names suggesting run for president http://hill.cm/Rl5tsfN








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  30. #30
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Chaffetz is a phony, hypocritical self-promoter. Doesnt have an ounce of integrity, as everyone who has ever worked with or for him will tell you.
    I know this statement is true. INOJCA



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    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

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