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Thread: The Kyle Kuzma Thread

  1. #31
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Kyle Kuzma Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    That's results-based thinking, which many of you know I abhor. If you're gonna use a gambling comparison, please remember that even in gambling, you can make all the right decisions and still lose. I'll never fault Larry for bringing in a kid like Daniels -- it's the Tim Colemans and JoJo Zamoras that his feet should be held to the fire.
    I don't blame Larry a bit for bringing in Daniels. It's Seattle who was straining hard to find some way to criticize Larry over Daniels, so in order to help Seattle out I tried to articulate some basis on which Larry could possibly be criticized. I think it's pretty weak to criticize LK at all for Daniels. You joined the discussion a bit late, so you're proving my point without knowing it.

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    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell



  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't blame Larry a bit for bringing in Daniels. It's Seattle who was straining hard to find some way to criticize Larry over Daniels, so in order to help Seattle out I tried to articulate some basis on which Larry could possibly be criticized. I think it's pretty weak to criticize LK at all for Daniels. You joined the discussion a bit late, so you're proving my point without knowing it.
    My point may be a little too subtle for you. What we have to go on is rumors from the coaches. The rumors are that Daniels's off the court citizenship was lacking (there's no rumor that he didn't bust his ass in practice, that he did drugs or was an academic problem). I think this raises a question about the team culture--which is the coach's responsibility. I don't know why everyone just accepts the coaches' excuse that Daniels is a bad seed. Larry K. himself has said that the team culture is deficient. That problem is all his fault.

    Except for Marc Jackson at the very end, Majerus only lost transfers because they couldn't play basketball well enough to make the team. Even Marc Jackson was not the result of a citizenship issue. We just lost a kid who was on a trajectory to be first team all Pac 12 because of problems with team discipline. Stop assuming that all the fault lies with the kid.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    My point may be a little too subtle for you. What we have to go on is rumors from the coaches. The rumors are that Daniels's off the court citizenship was lacking (there's no rumor that he didn't bust his ass in practice, that he did drugs or was an academic problem). I think this raises a question about the team culture--which is the coach's responsibility. I don't know why everyone just accepts the coaches' excuse that Daniels is a bad seed. Larry K. himself has said that the team culture is deficient. That problem is all his fault.

    Except for Marc Jackson at the very end, Majerus only lost transfers because they couldn't play basketball well enough to make the team. Even Marc Jackson was not the result of a citizenship issue. We just lost a kid who was on a trajectory to be first team all Pac 12 because of problems with team discipline. Stop assuming that all the fault lies with the kid.
    you are off base on this one. I have heard lots of stuff not from coaches but players extended families or friends. Daniels was a bad apple and a bad teammate by the end. he burned his bridges with everybody.

  4. #34
    Concerned,
    And yet, Larry reinstated him. I imagine that didn't happen without team approval.

    It sounds like you have insider information on this one. I do not. But the failure to keep Daniels is first and foremost a failure on Larry and the coaching staff. Larry has admitted that holding players accountable to the culture he's trying to create slipped seriously last season. I've seen evidence of it slipping for two seasons.

    Daniels is part of the problem - I don't contest that, but I wonder what Larry and the staff could have or should have been doing so that we don't lose a player with his talent. I think Larry knows he's partly responsible.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Concerned,
    And yet, Larry reinstated him. I imagine that didn't happen without team approval.

    It sounds like you have insider information on this one. I do not. But the failure to keep Daniels is first and foremost a failure on Larry and the coaching staff. Larry has admitted that holding players accountable to the culture he's trying to create slipped seriously last season. I've seen evidence of it slipping for two seasons.

    Daniels is part of the problem - I don't contest that, but I wonder what Larry and the staff could have or should have been doing so that we don't lose a player with his talent. I think Larry knows he's partly responsible.
    Well put and irrefutable.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Concerned,
    And yet, Larry reinstated him. I imagine that didn't happen without team approval.

    It sounds like you have insider information on this one. I do not. But the failure to keep Daniels is first and foremost a failure on Larry and the coaching staff. Larry has admitted that holding players accountable to the culture he's trying to create slipped seriously last season. I've seen evidence of it slipping for two seasons.

    Daniels is part of the problem - I don't contest that, but I wonder what Larry and the staff could have or should have been doing so that we don't lose a player with his talent. I think Larry knows he's partly responsible.
    I think you're right. I hope Larry learns from this. It certainly appears that he's been thinking about it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell



  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Concerned,
    And yet, Larry reinstated him. I imagine that didn't happen without team approval.

    It sounds like you have insider information on this one. I do not. But the failure to keep Daniels is first and foremost a failure on Larry and the coaching staff. Larry has admitted that holding players accountable to the culture he's trying to create slipped seriously last season. I've seen evidence of it slipping for two seasons.


    Daniels is part of the problem - I don't contest that, but I wonder what Larry and the staff could have or should have been doing so that we don't lose a player with his talent. I think Larry knows he's partly responsible.
    Reinstating him for the last couple of games versus the next three years are two completely different things. Plus the reinstatement did not overcome (but confirmed) what had gone on before. the coaching staff of course is partly responsible but Seattle Ute is minimizing Daniels role when he doesnt know what he is talking about, even though he is sure he is irrefutable.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Reinstating him for the last couple of games versus the next three years are two completely different things. Plus the reinstatement did not overcome (but confirmed) what had gone on before. the coaching staff of course is partly responsible but Seattle Ute is minimizing Daniels role when he doesnt know what he is talking about, even though he is sure he is irrefutable.
    Well said. We tend to do this sort of stuff a lot ignoring the fact that punching a teammate and threatening a coach is not okay in 100% of sports programs out there ages 5-105 and any demographic or socio-economic background.

    Well... except boxing.


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't blame Larry a bit for bringing in Daniels. It's Seattle who was straining hard to find some way to criticize Larry over Daniels, so in order to help Seattle out I tried to articulate some basis on which Larry could possibly be criticized. I think it's pretty weak to criticize LK at all for Daniels. You joined the discussion a bit late, so you're proving my point without knowing it.
    You did exactly that in two previous posts that I responded to.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Concerned,
    And yet, Larry reinstated him. I imagine that didn't happen without team approval.

    It sounds like you have insider information on this one. I do not. But the failure to keep Daniels is first and foremost a failure on Larry and the coaching staff. Larry has admitted that holding players accountable to the culture he's trying to create slipped seriously last season. I've seen evidence of it slipping for two seasons.

    Daniels is part of the problem - I don't contest that, but I wonder what Larry and the staff could have or should have been doing so that we don't lose a player with his talent. I think Larry knows he's partly responsible.

    So, no one is going to give credit to Larry for punting him? You can't fix Daniels. And, yet, most of you don't give a shit. You think Larry sucks because he didn't keep Daniels because all you see is he had talent. And Larry should have magically changed his character.

    Larry made a big boy, responsible decision to correct a cultural problem with his team. He took a big risk in doing so because he lost a kid who could play basketball. But he gained a big-time fan in me and in the rest of his players. He also sent a message to every player that they better buy in or he will punt them regardless of their alleged skill. I'm going all in and say it pays off. But of course, we can't compare because we would only have the "would we be better with Daniels" hypothetical that can never be proved.


    The coach at Utah State had a chance to have a front line and a point guard this year that would have won him the MWC championship--period. Instead, he backed, defended and justified the actions of his first big-time JC recruit who caused chemistry problems, caused people to leave and ultimately didn't end up playing much his last year. Because said coach rode the wrong horse, he went from winning the MWC and being the hot new name in hoops to getting his ass fired as soon as next year ends.

    He chose wrong. And it had everything to do with chemistry and culture.

    Larry is the best coach we've had at Utah since Majerus and a top 3 of all time already. He's proven he can coach. I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.
    This is all of us.

    Like you said, Larry took a risk, and we can't ever really know if it was the right call. Those are the decisions coaches have to make. We may wonder "what if" regularly in the future, especially if Daniels is successful wherever he goes. Larry will probably wonder as well.

    I think almost all of us are happy to have him as a coach, even if we wish he could have helped Daniels overcome whatever he needed to overcome.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, no one is going to give credit to Larry for punting him? You can't fix Daniels. And, yet, most of you don't give a shit. You think Larry sucks because he didn't keep Daniels because all you see is he had talent. And Larry should have magically changed his character.

    Larry made a big boy, responsible decision to correct a cultural problem with his team. He took a big risk in doing so because he lost a kid who could play basketball. But he gained a big-time fan in me and in the rest of his players. He also sent a message to every player that they better buy in or he will punt them regardless of their alleged skill. I'm going all in and say it pays off. But of course, we can't compare because we would only have the "would we be better with Daniels" hypothetical that can never be proved.


    The coach at Utah State had a chance to have a front line and a point guard this year that would have won him the MWC championship--period. Instead, he backed, defended and justified the actions of his first big-time JC recruit who caused chemistry problems, caused people to leave and ultimately didn't end up playing much his last year. Because said coach rode the wrong horse, he went from winning the MWC and being the hot new name in hoops to getting his ass fired as soon as next year ends.

    He chose wrong. And it had everything to do with chemistry and culture.

    Larry is the best coach we've had at Utah since Majerus and a top 3 of all time already. He's proven he can coach. I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.
    Yup. This.

    I'm still curious why we are seeing posts saying Larry didn't do enough to convince Daniels to stay.

    Larry did what he had to do, and has admitted he needs to make some changes in his process, why is that such a horrible thing?


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  13. #43
    Senior Member justaute's Avatar
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    I actually think our team will be more athletic, not less. The attributes I'm more concerned about are BB IQ and shooting. Also, have a concern about our Bigs.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    add San Diego St to those looking at Daniels

  15. #45
    Senior Member justaute's Avatar
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    Kuz was 7 of 7 in the 1st half of today's combine scrimmage, including 3/3 on 3pts. Nice work.

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, no one is going to give credit to Larry for punting him? You can't fix Daniels. And, yet, most of you don't give a shit. You think Larry sucks because he didn't keep Daniels because all you see is he had talent. And Larry should have magically changed his character.

    Larry made a big boy, responsible decision to correct a cultural problem with his team. He took a big risk in doing so because he lost a kid who could play basketball. But he gained a big-time fan in me and in the rest of his players. He also sent a message to every player that they better buy in or he will punt them regardless of their alleged skill. I'm going all in and say it pays off. But of course, we can't compare because we would only have the "would we be better with Daniels" hypothetical that can never be proved.


    The coach at Utah State had a chance to have a front line and a point guard this year that would have won him the MWC championship--period. Instead, he backed, defended and justified the actions of his first big-time JC recruit who caused chemistry problems, caused people to leave and ultimately didn't end up playing much his last year. Because said coach rode the wrong horse, he went from winning the MWC and being the hot new name in hoops to getting his ass fired as soon as next year ends.

    He chose wrong. And it had everything to do with chemistry and culture.

    Larry is the best coach we've had at Utah since Majerus and a top 3 of all time already. He's proven he can coach. I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.
    Top three? I'd put Vadel Peterson, Jack Gardner, Jerry Pimm and Maji ahead of him. He may jump a few before he's done, but he isn't there yet.

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, no one is going to give credit to Larry for punting him? You can't fix Daniels. And, yet, most of you don't give a shit. You think Larry sucks because he didn't keep Daniels because all you see is he had talent. And Larry should have magically changed his character.

    Larry made a big boy, responsible decision to correct a cultural problem with his team. He took a big risk in doing so because he lost a kid who could play basketball. But he gained a big-time fan in me and in the rest of his players. He also sent a message to every player that they better buy in or he will punt them regardless of their alleged skill. I'm going all in and say it pays off. But of course, we can't compare because we would only have the "would we be better with Daniels" hypothetical that can never be proved.


    The coach at Utah State had a chance to have a front line and a point guard this year that would have won him the MWC championship--period. Instead, he backed, defended and justified the actions of his first big-time JC recruit who caused chemistry problems, caused people to leave and ultimately didn't end up playing much his last year. Because said coach rode the wrong horse, he went from winning the MWC and being the hot new name in hoops to getting his ass fired as soon as next year ends.

    He chose wrong. And it had everything to do with chemistry and culture.

    Larry is the best coach we've had at Utah since Majerus and a top 3 of all time already. He's proven he can coach. I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.
    I was on a team that had awful chemistry. The stars (who were seniors) were colossal douchebags. We underperformed in a big way that year. Those guys graduated, team chemistry improved dramatically and we dominated the following year with supposedly lesser talent.

    Utah is a school that need to play team ball to win, period. We aren't going to get the one and done guys who elevate the entire program, so why undermine this critical element. I totally support Larry in his decision. Of course, his butt is on the line now.

  18. #48
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving Washington View Post
    Top three? I'd put Vadel Peterson, Jack Gardner, Jerry Pimm and Maji ahead of him. He may jump a few before he's done, but he isn't there yet.
    He could jump Pimm if he sticks around and keeps doing what he is doing. To jump Maji he's got to get to a NCAA final and to jump The Silver Fox he needs to make two Final Fours.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell



  19. #49
    After a solid showing yesterday in 5 on 5, Kuzma is not playing today, per Chad Ford.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    After a solid showing yesterday in 5 on 5, Kuzma is not playing today, per Chad Ford.

    What would our record have been if Kuzma had played like he did yesterday in three or four of our games?

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    What would our record have been if Kuzma had played like he did yesterday in three or four of our games?
    Better, but still, he played well enough to be on the all-conference first team. He had a great season. If it had been more great, that would have been more better.

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Better, but still, he played well enough to be on the all-conference first team. He had a great season. If it had been more great, that would have been more better.

    He played very well in many games; awful in others, and continued a tradition of head-scratching decision making in many. He wasn't consistent at all.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    He played very well in many games; awful in others, and continued a tradition of head-scratching decision making in many. He wasn't consistent at all.
    Frequently, it felt like Kuz was "letting the game come to him" to a fault. There were times we would have been better if he had asserted himself, like it's sound he did yesterday.
    Dyslexics of the world, untie!

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    He played very well in many games; awful in others, and continued a tradition of head-scratching decision making in many. He wasn't consistent at all.
    In what game did he play awful last year? He had double figures in scoring every game but one in conference and had 12 straight games of at least 8 rebounds. Sounds pretty non-awful and consistent to me.

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, no one is going to give credit to Larry for punting him? You can't fix Daniels. And, yet, most of you don't give a shit. You think Larry sucks because he didn't keep Daniels because all you see is he had talent. And Larry should have magically changed his character.

    Larry made a big boy, responsible decision to correct a cultural problem with his team. He took a big risk in doing so because he lost a kid who could play basketball. But he gained a big-time fan in me and in the rest of his players. He also sent a message to every player that they better buy in or he will punt them regardless of their alleged skill. I'm going all in and say it pays off. But of course, we can't compare because we would only have the "would we be better with Daniels" hypothetical that can never be proved.


    The coach at Utah State had a chance to have a front line and a point guard this year that would have won him the MWC championship--period. Instead, he backed, defended and justified the actions of his first big-time JC recruit who caused chemistry problems, caused people to leave and ultimately didn't end up playing much his last year. Because said coach rode the wrong horse, he went from winning the MWC and being the hot new name in hoops to getting his ass fired as soon as next year ends.

    He chose wrong. And it had everything to do with chemistry and culture.

    Larry is the best coach we've had at Utah since Majerus and a top 3 of all time already. He's proven he can coach. I'm all in next year on supporting a team that will lack a bit of athleticism but will play hard and will be fun to watch.
    This is human nature. People tend to empathize with the person who looks most like them, talks like them, is of comparable age, is of like background.

    How did Larry K find himself in that situation? That's the crux.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    In what game did he play awful last year? He had double figures in scoring every game but one in conference and had 12 straight games of at least 8 rebounds. Sounds pretty non-awful and consistent to me.
    I suppose it all depends on your definition of consistent. I would argue that he had an awful game against Arizona, but outside of that he was mostly at a double double or within shouting distance for most of conference play (with the admitted slip in rebounding over the last couple weeks of the season/post season). All in all, I would say he was much more consistent this year than he was last year.

    There is some buzz of him moving up into the first round (personally, I see him as a mid second round guy, but anywhere from late late first to undrafted wouldn't suprise me). I am cheering for that. A number of folks have argued this with me, but if we have three first round draft picks in a row, recruits will notice. That is a great sign of a staff that can develop guys who want to put in the work and be part of the group. Its obviously not the number one thing on anyone's list but every bit helps.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hayes6 View Post
    In what game did he play awful last year? He had double figures in scoring every game but one in conference and had 12 straight games of at least 8 rebounds. Sounds pretty non-awful and consistent to me.
    He had 7 turnovers in the OSU loss, and his 10 FGAs were well under his per season average. There's no way Kuzma can look at that game and say with a straight face he played well.

  28. #58
    Based on the advice given in this article to better NBA prospects, Kuzma made a mistake.

    Whoops. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-return-school
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 05-14-2017 at 01:56 PM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Based on the advice given in this article to better NBA prospects, Kuzma made a mistake.

    Whoops. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-bas...-return-school
    We had this back and forth here on the boards last year in regards to Poeltl. I will start by saying that yes, in a perfect world, the overwhelming majority of these guys go back to school and iron out their weaknesses and the NBA has more polished players coming in every year. Unfortunately, that is not how things have worked for most of this century. With many guys trying to maximize their earnings, they are opting to leave early, develop in the NBA and be a year or two closer to those second and third contracts (where the real money is). Rational or not, the fear of getting injured playing college ball is another factor.

    I did not read all of the evaluations in that article. I started with Mika because I think his decision will be very interesting to watch. The unnamed NBA exec who spoke on him mentioned wanting to see him go back to school and 'extend his range'. Fair assesment (he went 0-1 on threes this year). Now that is one executive on one team. More analytics-driven execs are going to see that he hit 76% on his free throws, shooting nearly 9 a game and that was up from 62% as a freshman back in 2013-2014. Free throw % (and its trend over time) are great indicators of 'stretch 4' potential. Its there. No one who truly has Mika's best interests at heart is going to advise to go back to school to 'extend his range' when the potential is clearly there, and its uncertain just how much Dave Rose (whose seat is getting ever so slightly warm) would be willing to experiment with such an attempt. In the D-league, that could be worked on with no consequences while learning a team's system for a salary in the high five figures or even 6 figures.

    Quick look at Kuzma..........what else can he prove at the college level that would cause his draft stock to really rise? He could lead a team to a big tournament run. The measurables (which are ok, nothing great, nothing bad) won't change. He could 'extend his range', his basketball IQ could rise, etc.

    I know I am rambling here, but to me, he has reached a level where the D-league wouldn't bury him and he can develop just fine there and be closer to that second contract, if he is so fortunate. Would have loved to have him back because I think there is more Larry can teach him, but after his performance at the combine, as laughably small of a sample size as it is, I believe he made the right call and his potential to move up with another year at Utah may not outweight another birthday.

  30. #60
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Kuzma did an AMA on Twitter yesterday. I hesitated to check it out because kids and twitter.

    It turned out great though. I highly recommend. He handled it well.

    Here's the start.

    https://twitter.com/kylekuzma/status/864575159780421634

    Makes me like him more and wish he was coming back. You can feel the maturity coming through.




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