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Thread: Gold Star Families

  1. #1
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Gold Star Families

    After Trump’s attacks last summer on the Khan family — and after his response to critics last week — I don’t have any real hope that he’s going to change. The rest of us, however, can decide that Trump’s tantrums won’t fundamentally change the way we treat Gold Star families. The rest of us can decide that he’s an aberration, that the next president can and must respond with dignity, and that we can and must react with one voice against any further degradation of this sacred space.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-sacred-ground

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #2


    All Trump had to do was show a little empathy and humility when the Congresswoman went public, and he would have done himself a world of good. All he had to say was : I am sorry if Mrs. Johnson was hurt by my comments. That was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. I was just trying to convey the thought that Sgt. Johnson knew it was dangerous, and he did it anyway. For that our country owes him a debt that can never be repaid. I am not very good at these kinds of conversations, but I will try to do my very best, becasue it is so important to the families and to the country."

    But he is not capable of that kind of thought.

  3. #3
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    But he is not capable of that kind of thought.


    Still, the congresswoman should not have tried to make political hay out of what she heard Trump say on the call. That's where it all started. But he is like a mouse and cheese. So easy to bait.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post


    Still, the congresswoman should not have tried to make political hay out of what she heard Trump say on the call. That's where it all started. But he is like a mouse and cheese. So easy to bait.
    No, she shouldn't have. But it would have been so easy for him to use it to his advantage.

  5. #5
    Speaking of Trump being a mouse and any perceived threat being cheese, how about the shots McCain is taking at the POTUS recently?

    LA - how would somebody like me be able to help Mitt take Hatch's seat, then run for the top spot in 2020? I'd like to go back to debating policy and political philosophy, and stop fearing for the future of the nation. I'd join the Republican Party to vote for Mitt in the primary.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Speaking of Trump being a mouse and any perceived threat being cheese, how about the shots McCain is taking at the POTUS recently?

    LA - how would somebody like me be able to help Mitt take Hatch's seat, then run for the top spot in 2020? I'd like to go back to debating policy and political philosophy, and stop fearing for the future of the nation. I'd join the Republican Party to vote for Mitt in the primary.
    We may need it for Governor with the rumors flying that Chaffetz wants the job. (Please save us Spencer Cox)


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  7. #7
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Speaking of Trump being a mouse and any perceived threat being cheese, how about the shots McCain is taking at the POTUS recently?
    It’s a dog fight between two dogs I don’t like very much. Both of them are ruled by their gut instinct and egos more than anything else. McCain is more likable than Trump, but he’s not showing his best side right now. It’s almost like he knows that he hasn’t got much time left, so he’s just gonna let it rip and sometimes that comes off looking petty.

    LA - how would somebody like me be able to help Mitt take Hatch’s seat, then run for the top spot in 2020? I’d like to go back to debating policy and political philosophy, and stop fearing for the future of the nation. I’d join the Republican Party to vote for Mitt in the primary.
    I think Mitt is around 70 years old now, so his time is also short. I mean, he’ll probably live until he’s 100, but it’s tough to be elected president when you’re in your mid 70s.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post


    Still, the congresswoman should not have tried to make political hay out of what she heard Trump say on the call. That's where it all started. But he is like a mouse and cheese. So easy to bait.
    Except that’s not where it started. It started when Trump pivoted from a reporters question about why he hadn’t made a single statement about these four soldiers that had been killed under rather unusual circumstances. He then went out of his way to tell the country how much he cares and that no previous president cares about dead soldiers as well as he does. Then in a panic, he does a crash course and calls all four families within twenty four hours. One of those families while she was on her way to meet her husband’s casket.

    Trump has a difficult time relating to people under ideal conditions. Just see how he handled his trip to Puerto Rico. These weren’t ideal conditions and I have little doubt that he lacked preparation. He probably struggled with everyone’s names since they weren’t ideally traditional names and just his naturally dismissive tone. To a young, black, grieving and pregnancy related emotional widow, I’m sure it was too much to handle. I only mention her race because given Trump’s history with people of color, I think it’s definitely relevant. I think General Kelly had a grasp on all of this, which is why he recommended that Trump not make the calls.

    Now, one of this fallen soldier’s mentors (who just so happened to be a congresswoman), was with the grieving family, was part of the grieving family when this call was made. Again, on their way to the airport to meet the casket. The call ended, the widow was hurt and they were all dealing with it together. As I understand it, the media was at the airport waiting for the family and the casket. This is why we have the heartbreaking video of this poor woman sobbing at the casket. Congresswomen Wilson was upset and had asked to speak to the president concerning the conversation that was just had. She was denied that opportunity and then when she got out of the car, there were reporters with microphones asking questions. Exasperated by everything, I think she felt a need to speak for Mrs. Johnson.


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Speaking of Trump being a mouse and any perceived threat being cheese, how about the shots McCain is taking at the POTUS recently?

    LA - how would somebody like me be able to help Mitt take Hatch's seat, then run for the top spot in 2020? I'd like to go back to debating policy and political philosophy, and stop fearing for the future of the nation. I'd join the Republican Party to vote for Mitt in the primary.
    I joined the Republican Party to vote for John Curtis in the recent primary election to replace Chafetz. I wanted the most moderate candidate to win. I will vote for Democrat Kathy Allen in the election even though I doubt she has a chance to win, but I will probably continue to be registered as a Republican to try to vote in the most moderate candidates.

  10. #10
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I joined the Republican Party to vote for John Curtis in the recent primary election to replace Chafetz. I wanted the most moderate candidate to win. I will vote for Democrat Kathy Allen in the election even though I doubt she has a chance to win, but I will probably continue to be registered as a Republican to try to vote in the most moderate candidates.
    More people should do that. Republicans should do the same thing in California. One- party rule by the ruling party‘s most extreme element is not good.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #11
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Except that’s not where it started. It started when Trump pivoted from a reporters question about why he hadn’t made a single statement about these four soldiers that had been killed under rather unusual circumstances. He then went out of his way to tell the country how much he cares and that no previous president cares about dead soldiers as well as he does. Then in a panic, he does a crash course and calls all four families within twenty four hours. One of those families while she was on her way to meet her husband’s casket.

    Trump has a difficult time relating to people under ideal conditions. Just see how he handled his trip to Puerto Rico. These weren’t ideal conditions and I have little doubt that he lacked preparation. He probably struggled with everyone’s names since they weren’t ideally traditional names and just his naturally dismissive tone. To a young, black, grieving and pregnancy related emotional widow, I’m sure it was too much to handle. I only mention her race because given Trump’s history with people of color, I think it’s definitely relevant. I think General Kelly had a grasp on all of this, which is why he recommended that Trump not make the calls.

    Now, one of this fallen soldier’s mentors (who just so happened to be a congresswoman), was with the grieving family, was part of the grieving family when this call was made. Again, on their way to the airport to meet the casket. The call ended, the widow was hurt and they were all dealing with it together. As I understand it, the media was at the airport waiting for the family and the casket. This is why we have the heartbreaking video of this poor woman sobbing at the casket. Congresswomen Wilson was upset and had asked to speak to the president concerning the conversation that was just had. She was denied that opportunity and then when she got out of the car, there were reporters with microphones asking questions. Exasperated by everything, I think she felt a need to speak for Mrs. Johnson.


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    We can agree to disagree. I think what she did was wrong. It was politically motivated, and arose from a condolence call from the president to a grieving military widow. The absolute wrong way to make political points, and that’s what she was doing. That’s what got John Kelly going.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #12
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It’s a dog fight between two dogs I don’t like very much. Both of them are ruled by their gut instinct and egos more than anything else. McCain is more likable than Trump, but he’s not showing his best side right now. It’s almost like he knows that he hasn’t got much time left, so he’s just gonna let it rip and sometimes that comes off looking petty.



    I think Mitt is around 70 years old now, so his time is also short. I mean, he’ll probably live until he’s 100, but it’s tough to be elected president when you’re in your mid 70s.
    It appears to me that McCain knows he is not long for this world and so he is letting his inner Maverick out on full throttle.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    We can agree to disagree. I think what she did was wrong. It was politically motivated, and arose from a condolence call from the president to a grieving military widow. The absolute wrong way to make political points, and that’s what she was doing. That’s what got John Kelly going.
    Trump took what would appear to be the most difficult thing to politically screw up, and made a mess of it.

    What an idiot.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    We can agree to disagree. I think what she did was wrong. It was politically motivated, and arose from a condolence call from the president to a grieving military widow. The absolute wrong way to make political points, and that’s what she was doing. That’s what got John Kelly going.
    The Congresswoman is a close friend of the family, and this was an honest response. She is a career educator and school principal, and she established an after-school mentoring program to help kids excel in life (5000 Role Models in Excellence). Sgt Johnson (and I believe his wife was also) graduated from her program.

    The president has shown himself to be not only one of the worst leaders in history, but he is also one of the least admirable and least capable people to ever hold a political office above that of Dog Catcher.

  15. #15
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Trump took what would appear to be the most difficult thing to politically screw up, and made a mess of it.

    What an idiot.
    Completely agree. I just think the congresswoman was out of line too.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #16
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    The Congresswoman is a close friend of the family, and this was an honest response. She is a career educator and school principal, and she established an after-school mentoring program to help kids excel in life (5000 Role Models in Excellence). Sgt Johnson (and I believe his wife was also) graduated from her program.

    The president has shown himself to be not only one of the worst leaders in history, but he is also one of the least admirable and least capable people to ever hold a political office above that of Dog Catcher.
    She was wrong to go public with such information in an effort to make Trump look bad. (He of course responded as he always does and is a fool in such matters.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #17
    She got out of the car and somebody stuck a mic in her face. She went public after being serially libeled by the president and Gen Kelly.

  18. #18
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    She got out of the car and somebody stuck a mic in her face. She went public after being serially libeled by the president and Gen Kelly.
    I thought she went public with what she'd heard on the phone call from Trump to the widow, and then Trump and Kelly responded.

    Except for the part about her bragging over the naming of that building, Kelly was spot-on.

    Proceed to flame away!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #19
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought she went public with what she'd heard on the phone call from Trump to the widow, and then Trump and Kelly responded.

    Except for the part about her bragging over the naming of that building, Kelly was spot-on.

    Proceed to flame away!
    From what I can tell, this started when a reporter asked Trump about calling the families, and he claimed that he did while saying Obama had not.

    That's when I gather that reporters were asking the widow whether or not Trump called and Wilson piped up to basically say "Yeah, he did, but it was a really sh***y call."

    This story can be spun every which way to Sunday. You can say that Wilson was grandstanding while others would say that she was standing up for a family friend. There are nuggets of truth to both.

    The bottom line is Trump f-ed up the call, f-ed up his response to Wilson, and f-ed up the surrounding controversy.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    From what I can tell, this started when a reporter asked Trump about calling the families, and he claimed that he did while saying Obama had not.

    That's when I gather that reporters were asking the widow whether or not Trump called and Wilson piped up to basically say "Yeah, he did, but it was a really sh***y call."

    This story can be spun every which way to Sunday. You can say that Wilson was grandstanding while others would say that she was standing up for a family friend. There are nuggets of truth to both.

    The bottom line is Trump f-ed up the call, f-ed up his response to Wilson, and f-ed up the surrounding controversy.
    We can disagree to agree. It is well summarized. The President has had a hundred opportunities to change this narrative for the better. He's opted to either ignore those or to simply make things worse each and every time.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought she went public with what she'd heard on the phone call from Trump to the widow, and then Trump and Kelly responded.

    Except for the part about her bragging over the naming of that building, Kelly was spot-on.

    Proceed to flame away!
    If Kelly had stopped when he finished his discussion of what it means to bring a dead soldier home, he would have gracious and on the high road. He could have simply said that what Trump was trying to convey was what Dunford said to him when his son died. it was very moving. Instead, he gets down in the gutter and attacks the woman personally, calling her an empty barrel. And his comments about the dedication of the FBI building were completely wrong. The videotape of her speech showed that she was very gracious that day, and didn't say any of the things he accused her of.

    Why did he get down in the gutter? He tarnished his own reputation and fueled the perception that he is just another attack dog for Trump. What purpose was served by it, except to rouse the base (and yes, in part becasue she is a black woman).

    Can't anybody in this administration take the high road and appeal to the better angels of our nature? Just once?
    Last edited by concerned; 10-24-2017 at 05:00 PM.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought she went public with what she'd heard on the phone call from Trump to the widow, and then Trump and Kelly responded.

    Except for the part about her bragging over the naming of that building, Kelly was spot-on.

    Proceed to flame away!
    No need to flame, you’re just misinformed.

    Kelly was far from spot on.

    Kelly accused Wilson of bragging about securing the funding for the building, which she never did.

    And if you watch the video I’ve linked below you can watch what she said. If that’s someone who is bragging, I must not know what bragging is. She spent most of the 9 minute speech highlighting those who helped with the naming, recognizing the families of the fallen SA’s, telling the fallen SA’s story and recognizing first responders.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...25992-132.html




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  23. #23
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    If Kelly had stopped when he finished his discussion of what it means to bring a dead soldier home, he would have gracious and on the high road. He could have simply said that what Trump was trying to convey was what Dunford said to him when his son died. it was very moving. Instead, he gets down in the gutter and attacks the woman personally, calling her an empty barrel. And his comments about the dedication of the FBI building were completely wrong. The videotape of her speech showed that she was very gracious that day, and didn't say any of the things he accused her of.

    Why did he get down in the gutter? He tarnished his own reputation and fueled the perception that he is just another attack dog for Trump. Can't anybody in this administration take the high road and appeal to the better angels of our nature? Just once?
    Kelly's son was killed in Afghanistan, so I cut him a lot of slack. I watched the video of her speech too and concluded that although it bordered on self-promotion (as most politicians' speeches usually do), it was not fair for Kelly to criticize her for that moment the way he did. I can see, however, how he might have seen it as self-promotion. As usual, Trump could have defused the whole thing. But everything is a street fight to him.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Kelly's son was killed in Afghanistan, so I cut him a lot of slack. I watched the video of her speech too and concluded that although it bordered on self-promotion (as most politicians' speeches usually do), it was not fair for Kelly to criticize her for that moment the way he did. I can see, however, how he might have seen it as self-promotion. As usual, Trump could have defused the whole thing. But everything is a street fight to him.
    Well, if we cut Kelly a lot of slack because his son was killed 7 years ago (and we should), then the least we could do is cut the Congresswoman a lot of slack because someone apparently important in her life was killed a week or two earlier, and the family was on its way to retrieve the casket. Of all people, Kelly should have.

  25. #25
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    In the London Times

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