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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #91
    Pre-emptive moves to protect against Trump bouncing Mueller: https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...ongress-281810

    It's encouraging that some Republican Senators at least see the risk in Mueller getting canned, but how they'll vote is another question. Another question is will it matter, if Trump jumps headlong into a constitutional crisis, anyway. "The President cannot obstruct justice". That was a planted seed to not just defend him, but build to support for eliminating Mueller.

    Another move that is seriously troubling is Pompeo assembling a privatized international spy ring to counter the "Deep State" CIA folks whom he doesn't trust. I would expect further moves in this direction, deliberate moves to negate / counter our intelligence services. (A whole lot of the Russian intel apparatus are not employees of the FSB, but rather loosely connected actors who do the bidding of Putin, such as the various "incidents" that help opposition to Putin in Russia be dramatically muted.)

  2. #92
    What does Trump gain by recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel? What doe the US gain by Trump doing this? I can't see any upside in this. It appears to be just another effort to created chaos and inflame hatred and passions. Anyone planning to travel in the middle east in the next 6 months should carefully reconsider those plans.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    What does Trump gain by recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel? What doe the US gain by Trump doing this? I can't see any upside in this. It appears to be just another effort to created chaos and inflame hatred and passions. Anyone planning to travel in the middle east in the next 6 months should carefully reconsider those plans.
    I said on UF.N that I think this is Trump flipping off Muslims. As I understand it though, in 1995 Congress and Clinton signed into law that the embassy should be in Jerusalem and they even have a plot of land that remains vacant for it. However every 6 months since then the president has issued a stay (? can't remember if that is the term) basically holding that off for another 6 months and that has happened for the past 21 years. If people are asking why and why now, I would refer to my first statement and the now is probably because it is time to sign that stay and it came across his desk and got his attention.

    I'm not seeing any experts who think this is a good idea.

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I said on UF.N that I think this is Trump flipping off Muslims. As I understand it though, in 1995 Congress and Clinton signed into law that the embassy should be in Jerusalem and they even have a plot of land that remains vacant for it. However every 6 months since then the president has issued a stay (? can't remember if that is the term) basically holding that off for another 6 months and that has happened for the past 21 years. If people are asking why and why now, I would refer to my first statement and the now is probably because it is time to sign that stay and it came across his desk and got his attention.

    I'm not seeing any experts who think this is a good idea.
    From everything I have read, he plans to make the announcement and sign the stay. Crazy.

  5. #95
    I read somewhere that this has to do with Roy Moore & Trump's base--the evangelicals have long wanted the embassy in J., and this is to fulfill a campaign promise at a propitious time domestically.

    follow-up: I just read that the evangelicals want the move because it will help advance the apocalypse and the second coming. maybe it fulfills a prophecy in their minds. FWIW.
    Last edited by concerned; 12-06-2017 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #96
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Newsflash. Juries often come up with crazy verdicts.
    Yes, I had noticed that. 35 years as a lawyer tends to bring such things to one's attention. This verdict is unusually stinky, however.

    Did you notice most of the accused officers in Baltimore chose bench trials? In law enforcement there’s often a belief that guilty people love juries, innocent people prefer a judge.

    I’ve seen all kinds of completely crazy jury verdicts. I also know I’ve yet to see a single police officer be empaneled for a jury...although a sitting judge recently made it on a jury in Utah.
    When my cases end up in trials I hand them off to a partner, but we almost never want to be in front of a jury. Wen we are advising clients about settling a case, the unpredictability of juries is always a factor.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-06-2017 at 03:20 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #97
    Watching Trump stomp around as he does (and thinking of other president before him who did the same thing) has made me come to the conclusion that our presidents have too much power and the checks and balances sought from the three branches of government is way out of whack. I think we are going to see more and more tyrants in that office until that gets fixed.


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  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Watching Trump stomp around as he does (and thinking of other president before him who did the same thing) has made me come to the conclusion that our presidents have too much power and the checks and balances sought from the three branches of government is way out of whack. I think we are going to see more and more tyrants in that office until that gets fixed.


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    It’s an excellent point.

    Something I don’t think the founding fathers ever could see coming was the speed at which things can happen.

    POTUS has a way to do many things very quickly. Congress and SCOTUS move like a sloth on depressants

    How we fix that, I’m not sure.


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  9. #99
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Utah governor calls out Steve Bannon

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900005228/utah-governor-calls-steve-bannon-a-mormon-bigot.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Utah governor calls out Steve Bannon

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900005228/utah-governor-calls-steve-bannon-a-mormon-bigot.html
    Everyone had called out Bannon. Even Boyd Matheson from the Sutherland Institute, whom Bannon has tried to recruit to run against Hatch.


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  11. #101
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I got an e-mail today telling me that if I donate $20 to the National Republican Congressional Committee (or whatever NRCC stands for) I'll get one of these:

    trumpxmas.jpg

    If you want me to get one for you let me know. It'll cost you $20.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I got an e-mail today telling me that if I donate $20 to the National Republican Congressional Committee (or whatever NRCC stands for) I'll get one of these:

    trumpxmas.jpg

    If you want me to get one for you let me know. It'll cost you $20.
    “We also promise to kill a baby kitten in your honor...”

    Truthfully you should buy that and store it for your children. The kitsch value of that in 40 years from now may exceed your investment many times over.


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  13. #103
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    “We also promise to kill a baby kitten in your honor...”

    Truthfully you should buy that and store it for your children. The kitsch value of that in 40 years from now may exceed your investment many times over.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The problem is that I would have to donate the $20 and would be forever on a list of people who have given money. They never leave you alone after that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Everyone had called out Bannon. Even Boyd Matheson from the Sutherland Institute, whom Bannon has tried to recruit to run against Hatch.
    "All politics is local"

    Bannon's audience was in Alabama, where Mormons are fair game. His political soulmate, Trump, bought off the political audience in Utah on Monday, by slashing Bears Ears and chopping Grand Staircase in half.

    So the whining from Utah about Bannon's attack on Romney / his sons / Mormon missionaries falls on deaf ears, for their political masters. "I slashed the monuments, now shut up!"

    (Incensed Utahns / supporters of Romney won't see any connection.)

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    It’s an excellent point.

    Something I don’t think the founding fathers ever could see coming was the speed at which things can happen.

    POTUS has a way to do many things very quickly. Congress and SCOTUS move like a sloth on depressants

    How we fix that, I’m not sure.
    There's a lot of things the Founding Fathers didn't / couldn't foresee: Aviation, nuclear weapons, bump stocks. They did, however, see the need for more deliberation in some parts of the federal government, which is why the Senate has 6 year terms, and the House just 2, and justices appointed for life.

    When was the last declared war? WWII?

    I find it fascinating, though, that among some conservatives who've been pining for a new Constitutional Convention to restore things a coolness to the idea, as it could be very unpredictable and go in ways they don't intend.

  16. #106
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Kind of interesting.

    Vice President Mike Pence And GOP Chair Reince Priebus Had A 'Plan B' To Replace Trump During Campaign

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/24355/...ign=benshapiro

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #107
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This still does not answer the question, “Why do this now?“

    President Trump’s announcement that he will recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has ignited a firestorm of protest. What’s disingenuous about the histrionic response is the capital’s move from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a longstanding goal of U.S. policy that once had bipartisan support.

    When running for president 25 years ago, Bill Clinton promised to “support Jerusalem as the capital of the state of Israel.” President George W. Bush criticized Clinton for not following up on that commitment, but then W failed to make good on his too. During Barack Obama’s 2008 campaign, he stated that, “we should move our embassy to Jerusalem” but never recognized the city as the capital once he was elected.

    The difference now, whether one loves or hates Trump, is that people across the political spectrum are going berserk because he is moving to fulfill his campaign promise on this issue after the three previous presidents lied about it to win office.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...umn/927957001/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This still does not answer the question, “Why do this now?“



    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...umn/927957001/
    I've long had a theory about some campaign promises that go unfulfilled by presidents. For example, a big part of the Obama platform was to shut down Gitmo. It remains open and enemy combatants are detained there with no plans for a trial to this day. I think what happens is that presidents get into office, get the full details of top secret information or the deeper reasons behind a policy and with that additional knowledge continue doing what they once railed against. I think Obama found out who these guys were in Gitmo and knew there was no scenario where they could be released or given a trial.

    I think in the past while the goal was to set the embassy in Jerusalem, the experts would explain the problems it would cause among the muslim world, how it would pull the USA out as a potential impartial mediator and more. I think then they would do what previous presidents had done, democratic and republican, and continue to hold off the move.

    As I said yesterday, this gets renewed every 6 months by past presidents. I would guess that it was time to renew, and Trump lacking the wit, wisdom and rationality to understand the facts proceeded ahead. I think that is the reason behind 'why now.'

  19. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This still does not answer the question, “Why do this now?“



    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...umn/927957001/
    Because he made a promise on the campaign trail. Duh.


    God help us if he intends to keep all of those.

  20. #110
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This still does not answer the question, “Why do this now?“



    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...umn/927957001/
    He has to have some successes to point to next year for the mid-terms

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    He has to have some successes to point to next year for the mid-terms
    The definition of success has dropped.

    Bethlehem.jpg

  22. #112
    Roy Moore tells African American questioner that America was Great under slavery, as families were together, etc. http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-la...slavery-741845

    (Now that will get people distracted from Moore's perv problem!)

  23. #113
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Roy Moore tells African American questioner that America was Great under slavery, as families were together, etc. http://www.newsweek.com/roy-moore-la...slavery-741845

    (Now that will get people distracted from Moore's perv problem!)
    My favorite Roy Moore anecdote was when he told a television interviewer that he didn’t remember whether he dated a particular teenage girl when he was in his 30s. The only possible reasons any man doesn’t remember something like that is because he’s lying, or because such dates were so common that all the girls blurred together in his memory.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    My favorite Roy Moore anecdote was when he told a television interviewer that he didn’t remember whether he dated a particular teenage girl when he was in his 30s. The only possible reasons any man doesn’t remember something like that is because he’s lying, or because such dates were so common that all the girls blurred together in his memory.
    My favorite Roy Moore quote was his describing meeting his current wife when she was 23. He remembered her name "Kayla" from seeing her in a school dance recital in an auditorium eight years earlier when she was fifteen. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he had a legitimate, non-predatory reason for attending, who remembers the name of a 15 year old dancer eight years later unless he is salivating over her? How does he remember that but not remember what you reference? It has to be because they are all blurred in his mind.
    Last edited by concerned; 12-08-2017 at 10:38 AM.

  25. #115
    Here's a good article about how right-wing media is undermining the Mueller investigation, setting up the stage for no action when the investigation is done. http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commen...ller-uncovers/

    Since PR, politics and media are being blended, maybe Democrats & MSNBC should begin emphasizing that Mueller is a voting Republican, as are most of the FBI, so that as the indictments start flowing, the anti-FBI PR strategy will be negated, and Trump/Hannity will be forced to pivot to portraying this as a "real conservative" vs RINO issue.

    Eventually, you have to think orthodox Republicans will start to stand up for themselves. They're letting a lot of damage be done to the GOP brand. (Here in Utah, good citizens were ecstatic when Trump granted their wishes and slashed Bears Ears and Grand Staircase, then were stunned and hurt when Trump's political soulmate Bannon threw not just Romney under the bus, but Mormons and their missionary service, too... the next day.)

    There's another possibility: Since Trump's 71 years old, typically eats 2 Big Macs, 2 Filet-o-Fishes and a Chocolate shake for lunch, and is opposed to exercise - because he thinks there's a finite amount of energy / heartbeats / physical activity a person can engage in - maybe he doesn't make it to the 2020 elections.

    The explosive temper, getting bigger and bigger, a horrendous diet and a erroneously grounded aversion to exercise all lead to a predictable outcome.

  26. #116

  27. #117
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Several quick thoughts.

    I generally react negatively when someone who isn’t really a Republican lectures the Republican Party about what’s wrong with it and what the party needs to fix. Brooks is at best what might have been called, once upon a time, a Rockefeller Republican. But I don’t even think he’s one of those. He’s a very good man with very intelligent, sensitive takes on society. But he is not a soothsayer of politics.

    Second, he is right about Roy Moore and Trump. He is right about many things that Trump has done. He is right that many Republicans now feel homeless. I am still a Republican, and although I am very unhappy with where the party is right now, it still embodies most of my political philosophy. I try to vote pragmatically. I follow the William F. Buckley rule: vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. Usually.

    I am certainly not going to become a Democrat. I would like to see some articles by former Democrats about how horribly disfigured that party has become. Democrats and liberals love to assume the mantle of righteousness, the idea that their views are not simply political, but are the views any decent, intelligent and enlightened person holds. It is ridiculous and alienating for them to do that. A lot of people on the left seems bent on killing the notion that reasonable people can disagree reasonably on important issues.

    There is a whole middle part of the country that finds no real home in either party. We used to call those people independents, but now I’m not sure what to call them. I think it’s a growing group.

    So don’t tell me that Trump and Republicans are the problem. Trump is a symptom of a wider problem, and everyone owns a piece of it. The tribal Democrats, the extreme right-wing Republicans and Evangelicals, and everyone who gives money to both sides. George Soros and his ilk on the left, the supporters of the Freedom Caucus on the right, and a host of others.

    You might be discerning that I am not in a good mood about this today.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I am certainly not going to become a Democrat. I would like to see some articles by former Democrats about how horribly disfigured that party has become. Democrats and liberals love to assume the mantle of righteousness, the idea that their views are not simply political, but are the views any decent, intelligent and enlightened person holds. It is ridiculous and alienating for them to do that. A lot of people on the left seems bent on killing the notion that reasonable people can disagree reasonably on important issues.

    There is a whole middle part of the country that finds no real home in either party. We used to call those people independents, but now I’m not sure what to call them. I think it’s a growing group.
    The split within the Democratic party has been overshadowed by Trump & the GOP's more public issues, but it was embodied by the Sanders-Clinton split in the primary. The overbearing righteousness of the liberal wing gets tempered by those of us in the moderate camp, if that helps. Bill Clinton (and Hillary and Obama) all pulled toward the middle, the Dems reaction to getting hammered by Reaganism. Plenty of my liberal friends are of the opinion that moderate Democrats are very close to moderate Republicans, ideologically.

    My research colleague from Australia whose family are active in the Australian Conservative Party says US Democrats are really more akin to Auzzie conservatives, Canadian conservatives, the Christian Democrats of Germany (ie, not the Social Democrats), etc. This lines up with what my German buddy says. The US really doesn't have anything like a Socialist Party, or the Social Democrat party, or the Labor party of the UK. (Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren maybe come closest, but they're at the very edge of the spectrum in the US. Millenials in the US may demand more progressive Democratic candidates, from areas that can support it, such as NY & California.)

    If you want a common, negative instrospective view of the Democratic Party, it would from liberals who believe both Clintons and Obama didn't go nearly far enough to address issues, instead placating industry and offering weak attempts to mitigate the excesses of capitalism. Obamacare itself is considered a weak half-measure, with no serious consequences/public competition for insurance companies, no pressure to tame the serious problems in US healthcare. (They begrudgingly admit that Obama's hands were tied, and strong liberal prescriptive policy measures were off the table, resulting in a very weak stimulus package following the Great Recession. Paul Krugman is the economist soul of liberalism / progressivism.)

    What were considered "Independents" are analogous to the "Nones" of the religious landscape, folks who've checked out - or never really understood or accepted the ideological views of either party. (The Nones aren't just atheists. 2/3 of them believe in a higher power, in life after death.)

    Between the rapid growth of religious Nones and disaffected political Independents, the social institutions of the nation are fraying, badly.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 12-09-2017 at 02:21 PM.

  29. #119
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    It would help everyone if the news media on all sides would calm down about Trump and work harder at just telling us, carefully, what is going on.

    The U.S. Media’s Most Humiliating Debacle on Decades

    https://theintercept.com/2017/12/09/...what-happened/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It would help everyone if the news media on all sides would calm down about Trump and work harder at just telling us, carefully, what is going on.
    I agree. The more everyone makes about every little lie and stupidity coming out of Trump's mouth gives Trump what he craves and diverts our attention from confronting and tackling the big issues. Although I certainly lean left, I am an independent. Well, today I'm a registered Republican. I did that to vote for the most moderate Republican candidate to replace Chaffetz. Their are undoubtedly some fundamental things we disagree on, but I bet we agree on more than we disagree.

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