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Thread: Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    I didn't make any value judgments in that post.

    none.

    zero.

    putin's primary goal is to re-establish Russia's sphere of influence in the former Soviet block. He sees NATO as the primary impediment to that end. His strategy for weakened NATO is two-fold

    1) support isolationatist nationalist parties throughout the NATO footprint. In the US that's the GOP and Putin has worked hard to support and promote the GOP especially its more nationalist and isolationist elements. I don't think anyone would argue any of those points.

    Now if you think that expansion of Russia's sphere of influence is bad and that parties who further that expansion are by extension "bad guys" then that's you applying your own value judgment, because I said nothing of the sort.

    2) the other arm of the strategy is to attack Western ideals of multiculturalism, pluralism, and equality. Putin does this by supporting racist, xenophobic, and homophobic political factions in the NATO footprint, and in the US those elements are the core of the modern GOP. I'm not saying that makes the GOP "bad guys"; everyone is free to make his/her own value judgment.
    Completely ridiculous post. You think the GOP has an isolationist policy? I should have stopped reading right there.

    The bottom line on Russian interference in US elections is they saw Trump for who he was, a buffoon, and worked to support him to instill chaos. They know they can play him like a fiddle.

    I guarantee had he been on the Democratic ticket they would have done the same thing.



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  2. #302

    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/11/politi...ffe/index.html

    Sweet, call of duty is real!!!! 🤦


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  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Ma’ake, I urge you to read the David Brooks op-ed in my post from yesterday.


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    also FWIW


    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...d-meeting.html

  4. #304
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I would just like to say that El Salvador is a beautiful little country. I have seen almost all of it.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I would just like to say that El Salvador is a beautiful little country. I have seen almost all of it.


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    \
    Around here, there have been comments like yours from many many returned missionaries who served in those s-hole countries, who have been particularly offended.

  6. #306
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    The real hazard with being the President is the fact that you are surrounded by people, microphones, and cameras 24/7. You cannot hide your true feelings and beliefs on subjects. You will eventually slip. Maybe not a big one, but definitely small consistent nuggets of truth here and there. Eventually we will have enough of the puzzle to see who you really are, no matter what you try to tell us. Over the course of 4 years, we will truly learn who you really are.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I would just like to say that El Salvador is a beautiful little country. I have seen almost all of it.


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    Usually the best immigrants are those who come from the toughest places and who are thrilled and feel lucky to be in the United States. These folks children and grandchildren often become our greatest entrepenuers and success stories.

    That's the American dream. Sheesh.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 01-12-2018 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    If you really pay attention, it's getting harder and harder to *not* see that Trump has serious neurological dysfunction.

    Accounts of Trump repeating himself more frequently - from within 30 minute periods to within 10 minute periods - suggest that cognitive decline has accelerated (likely from stress) and we'll see more & more incidents that shock the sensibilities, above and beyond the callouses we've built up.

    The rumors of Tillerson referring to him as a "F-ing moron", and McMaster called him a "dope" both resonate as true, certainly plausible, after the past 48 hours.

    Trump tries to hold things together and be reasonable/rational, like on Tues(?) when he was agreeing to everything - eg, both a clean-bill DACA and comprehensive immigration reform - and then he gets tired and irritable, like the shithole comment.

    They're trying to reduce his stress, his work day now starts at 11am. Who is running the Executive Branch? Kelly?

    I think there's significant risk for Republicans that Trump will lose it on national TV - F-bombs and all - and questions will quickly mount as to how Congressional Republicans just let this go on, and didn't do anything about it.

    William Kristol: "Hopefully VP Pence and COS Kelly are assembling a draft of a 25th Amendment intervention"

  9. #309
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    Time to tap the brakes on the psychiatric diagnoses.

    Psychiatric association warns against diagnosing public figures like Trump without medical exam

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ps...rticle/2645459

    Also:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...enting-on-trum
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-12-2018 at 12:24 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Time to tap the brakes on the psychiatric diagnoses.

    Psychiatric association warns against diagnosing public figures like Trump without medical exam

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ps...rticle/2645459

    Also:

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...enting-on-trum
    Awesome for them.

    But as we have learned in Utah recently, elected officials likely need to be held to a different standard. Otherwise you end up with the Gary Ott situation.

    Something is wrong with Trump. It doesn’t take a medical professional to see that.


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  11. #311
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Awesome for them.

    But as we have learned in Utah recently, elected officials likely need to be held to a different standard. Otherwise you end up with the Gary Ott situation.

    Something is wrong with Trump. It doesn’t take a medical professional to see that.


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    I hesitate to jump on the medical bandwagon because that's a pretty hard line to walk back from.

    To play devil's (or Trump) advocate here: He is obviously in way over his head in one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult job in the world. It isn't unreasonable to suggest that he's stressed and fatigued, which could also present in the above way. He isn't the type of person who would ever admit to such weaknesses, but he isn't immune to them. I would like to have more data on this before we all start screaming for the 25th amendment.

    Furthermore, I think the Reagan folks were right in understanding that the 25th amendment is a unique genie that you cannot put back into the bottle once it is out. He would have to live with the consequences of being declared "mentally incapable", not to mention that once you do it once, the burden of proof is somewhat lowered for future generations for political enemies of the President to attack him with. Just show he tripped over the edge of the carpet and claim mental incapacity.

    I think you reserve the 25th for someone who literally cannot function. Unlike most people, I believe this country will still be around in 3 more years no matter what President Trump does.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Unlike most people, I believe this country will still be around in 3 more years no matter what President Trump does.
    I agree, we'll be around. I think. The scar tissue accumulating is changing the nation, pretty quickly, though.

    Trump is one thing. How everyone reacts to him (and subsequent reverberation/reactions) is where the real fascination arises.

    Many - myself included - are outraged. Many Republicans / Trump supporters are much less so, understandably, since they're in the same tribe... or perhaps they're amused/gratified at reactions in the opposing/enemy tribe.

    For example, today Dem Senator Dick Durban is the only one who admits to hearing Trump use the "s-hole" term. 2 GOP Senators claim they don't recall hearing it, Graham says he had private words for Trump, every other GOP Senator present is now saying nothing. (Tom Cotton doesn't "recall"? Why not just say it wasn't said? Curious. Standards of truth and honesty change before our eyes, Chris Hill's admission not withstanding.)

    So, maybe it never happened and Dick Durbin should face censure. Or Trump and his GOP subordinates are stone-walling the entire nation, with the joke primarily being on Mia Love. (Or, as Mike Lee says, maybe some not-so-good things happen, but why focus on the negative?)

    It's (another) really good example of how our two main tribes are in entirely different realities, with the chasm growing. If we can't agree on basic facts and are in different realities, it will be much easier for Democrats to exact maximum revenge... should they retake Congress. The oscillations continue, now with more explicitly racial overtones.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    I agree, we'll be around. I think. The scar tissue accumulating is changing the nation, pretty quickly, though.

    Trump is one thing. How everyone reacts to him (and subsequent reverberation/reactions) is where the real fascination arises.

    Many - myself included - are outraged. Many Republicans / Trump supporters are much less so, understandably, since they're in the same tribe... or perhaps they're amused/gratified at reactions in the opposing/enemy tribe.

    For example, today Dem Senator Dick Durban is the only one who admits to hearing Trump use the "s-hole" term. 2 GOP Senators claim they don't recall hearing it, Graham says he had private words for Trump, every other GOP Senator present is now saying nothing. (Tom Cotton doesn't "recall"? Why not just say it wasn't said? Curious. Standards of truth and honesty change before our eyes, Chris Hill's admission not withstanding.)

    So, maybe it never happened and Dick Durbin should face censure. Or Trump and his GOP subordinates are stone-walling the entire nation, with the joke primarily being on Mia Love. (Or, as Mike Lee says, maybe some not-so-good things happen, but why focus on the negative?)

    It's (another) really good example of how our two main tribes are in entirely different realities, with the chasm growing. If we can't agree on basic facts and are in different realities, it will be much easier for Democrats to exact maximum revenge... should they retake Congress. The oscillations continue, now with more explicitly racial overtones.
    it's because the GOP is colluding with Russia. These are just facts. You can interpret those facts any way you want.

  14. #314

    Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

    I’ve been saying the Dems need to unify on a message and start beating that drum. I’m now convinced mental fitness is the perfect one, even above sexual assault and Russian collusion, purely from a strategic point. (I’ll channel my inner Harry Reid for a moment and paraphrase when asked about his admitted lies about Mitt Romney and say, “It worked didn’t it?”)

    But mental incompetence as indicated in this thread is easy to point out to this or that as purported evidence. It gives politicians the opportunity to ignore Trump, along with the rest of the world, and all but insures he doesn’t get re-elected. I wouldn’t go the 25th amendment route, I’d just keep beating the drum that he is crazy and should be neutralized and let the democratic process correct it. Trump even becomes a sympathetic and neutralized character.

    Best of all, it is pretty hard to disprove. Sexual assault allegations can often be neutralized by saying the victims are looking for fame or a payout. Russian collusion is also easy to deny and certainly precautions have been taken to buffer Trump from direct allegations. If it does ever materialize (and I have my doubts) it’ll be, “Donny Jr talked to the Russians without my approval or knowledge and he certainly didn’t understand the ramifications...”

    But mentally unfit, that is political gold.

    Now screwing back on my ethics hat and putting away Brother Reid’s methodologies, I agree both that we can’t diagnose someone from afar but at the same time it is very hard not to believe something is amiss.


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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post

    Now screwing back on my ethics hat and putting away Brother Reid’s methodologies, I agree both that we can’t diagnose someone from afar but at the same time it is very hard not to believe something is amiss.


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    And this is sort of what I was referring to with Gary Ott.

    Everyone knew something was wrong, but no one could prove it. He was re-elected while mentally ill, because handlers handled him.

    Ultimately, after years, the whole thing came crashing down. And we all found out Salt Lake County had an elected official in office, and re-elected while suffering from Alzheimer’s....and two people who garnered his trust ultimately were running the show instead of the elected person

    It’ll be interesting to see where this ends up over the next 3 years.


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  16. #316
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    No one can credibly argue that political discourse before Trump was healthy and virtuous. No one can credibly argue that he’s the first American to intentionally divide Americans by race, class, or religion, either. But a president can make our political culture better, or he can make it worse. And Trump seems determined to make it worse.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...politics-worst

    Whether he is determined to make it worse doesn’t seem to matter, because he doesn’t care. He’s making it worse either way.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    And this is sort of what I was referring to with Gary Ott.

    Everyone knew something was wrong, but no one could prove it. He was re-elected while mentally ill, because handlers handled him.

    Ultimately, after years, the whole thing came crashing down. And we all found out Salt Lake County had an elected official in office, and re-elected while suffering from Alzheimer’s....and two people who garnered his trust ultimately were running the show instead of the elected person

    It’ll be interesting to see where this ends up over the next 3 years.


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    The Gary Ott story was a truly tragic one, and the people who should have cared for him the most propped him up for their own gain.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...politics-worst

    Whether he is determined to make it worse doesn’t seem to matter, because he doesn’t care. He’s making it worse either way.
    Good article.

    Here's where the counter argument about seeking immigrants who are highly qualified falls flat: many certainly don't want those immigrants, either. Example: Let's say a tsunami hit a small Asian nation that has a very high percentage of top tier, US educated attorneys. We're expected to believe we'll welcome those refugee/immigrants with open arms?

    Please...

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Good article.

    Here's where the counter argument about seeking immigrants who are highly qualified falls flat: many certainly don't want those immigrants, either. Example: Let's say a tsunami hit a small Asian nation that has a very high percentage of top tier, US educated attorneys. We're expected to believe we'll welcome those refugee/immigrants with open arms?

    Please...
    Attorneys, no. Computer scientists? Probably.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    I'd throw George Will in with you & Hugh as being conservatives who aren't a) Nuts, b) are intellectually coherent, c) aren't sell outs.
    The important thing with Will isn't that he's conservative. It's that he's funny.

  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Attorneys, no. Computer scientists? Probably.
    There's truth in that, although I know Canada is making a pitch to become a new Technology center, as it will be easier to get immigrants there... and for their families, Canada is a little more reassuring destination, more friendly toward immigrants (in general).

    In the Biotech sector, Australia is on the upswing, immigrant friendly, with closer access to China (whom they've not antagonized). We've had some promising young researchers head Down Under.

    Meanwhile, that terrorist mayor of London won't make his city friendly for Trump. Shame! And Trump has to lie (again) and blame Obama for choosing real estate in London not up to Trump's standards (when it was really "W" who got that change underway).

  22. #322
    Here's an interesting question:

    Given the highest ratings Mormons have of Trump, does Mitt still run? https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...p-in-poll.html

    (Mitt took heat in his presidential race for being a flip-flopper, but in Utah I don't think that matters, at all.)

    So... does Mitt assert his leadership in Utah and nationally as the moral & intellectual alternative to Trump, or does he fall in line like everyone else has?

  23. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Given the highest ratings Mormons have of Trump, does Mitt still run?
    If he wants to be a senator, he runs. Nothing about his positions or Trump's or his relative to Trump's could lead to him not winning that seat.

  24. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    If he wants to be a senator, he runs. Nothing about his positions or Trump's or his relative to Trump's could lead to him not winning that seat.
    Just to mess with everyone, I think Mitt should converse in French for the whole campaign, once he's past the primary (of course).

  25. #325
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Given the highest ratings Mormons have of Trump, does Mitt still run? https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...p-in-poll.html
    My hunch (maybe just a hope) is that Mormons approve of Trump policy (foreign and domestic) but not of Trump himself. That would make sense. But Utah Mormons loooove Mitt.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #326
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Food for thought:

    The Atlantic’s Caitlin Flanagan made an intriguing argument that even the heavily anti-Trump tenor of late-night comedy shows actually helped Trump: “Though aimed at blue-state sophisticates, these shows are an unintended but powerful form of propaganda for conservatives. When Republicans see these harsh jokes—which echo down through the morning news shows and the chattering day’s worth of viral clips, along with those of Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, and Seth Meyers—they don’t just see a handful of comics mocking them. They see HBO, Comedy Central, TBS, ABC, CBS, and NBC. In other words, they see exactly what Donald Trump has taught them: that the entire media landscape loathes them, their values, their family, and their religion. It is hardly a reach for them to further imagine that the legitimate news shows on these channels are run by similarly partisan players—nor is it at all illogical. No wonder so many of Trump’s followers are inclined to believe only the things that he or his spokespeople tell them directly—everyone else on the tube thinks they’re a bunch of trailer-park, Oxy-snorting half-wits who divide their time between retweeting Alex Jones fantasies and ironing their Klan hoods.”
    https://www.hoover.org/research/revolt-masses

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    My hunch (maybe just a hope) is that Mormons approve of Trump policy (foreign and domestic) but not of Trump himself.
    You're giving people too much credit. What they approve of is Trump's political party. Nothing else really matters much.

  28. #328
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Time to return some clear, balanced thinking to this discussion.

    SeanPenn_Trump.jpg

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Time to return some clear, balanced thinking to this discussion.
    It's been a long time since Sean has been in a good movie, but I agree with his statement.

  30. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Time to return some clear, balanced thinking to this discussion.

    SeanPenn_Trump.jpg
    He’s not wrong.

    And you have to give him credit for using Trumps love to call the media the enemy of the people to describe him.




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