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Thread: Nate Cooper should die of gonorrhea and roast in hell...Utah at byu

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Good god. If what you all are saying about Childs is true, our coaches are fools. He was an ESPN four star rated the 53d best player in the country, and we let BYU have him? What kind of hubris caused them to string him along and go head to head with Arizona and UCLA for something better. Now look at us with Rawson in the starting lineup.
    It was a miss, but Markennen was not the typical "go against Arizona" situation for us. We thought we had him due to the Hanno connection. We had a Tillie connection, too.

    Still, seeing what we have, you take Childs and still pursue the others.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Good god. If what you all are saying about Childs is true, our coaches are fools. He was an ESPN four star rated the 53d best player in the country, and we let BYU have him? What kind of hubris caused them to string him along and go head to head with Arizona and UCLA for something better. Now look at us with Rawson in the starting lineup.
    This childs thing has become a run away train and desperately needs some context....

    -first and foremost.....nobody cares about ESPN basketball rankings. The effort that goes into those is less than sincere.

    -let's go back in time to 2015. We had just had an undersized but physical 4 man struggle tremendously in league play. The thought of bringing in another wasn't ideal. The same fans now calling it a mistake would have barbecued Larry in real time (not that it matters in any way).

    -we had two young 4s going into their sophomore year. It wasn't a position of need in the class of 2016, and so they tried for a few home runs and struck out. Nobody could have predicted at that point that Kuz would bounce for the league when he did. Also, nobody predicted that Chapman wouldn't be up for the Larry K style and bounce. If one or both of those guys plays yesterday, we win and no one thinks twice about this.

    Also, they genuinely believed they had LM. didn't work out.

    -Yoeli did this against Tyler Rawson, who Ute fans have a ridiculous hate affair with. Who is to say he would be anything great in the Pac-12?

  3. #153
    UMS -
    What a huge stretch to assume we win last night with Kuzma or Chapman on the court - neither of whom came anywhere near to their potential as Utes. If you've been paying attention to what they've been saying both are critical of player development at the U.

    I completely agree with your context on Loveridge/Childs. I know we were worried about them being the same player and I agree with your final thought of Childs doing well against Rawson. I don't think he'd be a significant player in the Pac-12. I do think even a little above average would help us.

    I also don't agree with those who believe our staff developed Taylor and Loveridge well. Taylor tailed off significantly his senior year. Loveridge turned himself into a three-point specialist and nothing else. I watched him work and he worked hard on his own. I rarely saw a coach working with him. He needed to develop an all court game - better ball-handling, better in the mid-range and in the post. I think he could have become a poor man's Jae Crowder but he had no one on the staff guiding him to that end.

    I'm a broken record but I think defense and player development are huge issues for this staff.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    UMS -
    What a huge stretch to assume we win last night with Kuzma or Chapman on the court - neither of whom came anywhere near to their potential as Utes.
    Kuzma was first team all-conference. And he was a mess as a freshman. If you are going to criticize our player development when it misses, you have to give credit when it hits.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    UMS -
    What a huge stretch to assume we win last night with Kuzma or Chapman on the court - neither of whom came anywhere near to their potential as Utes. If you've been paying attention to what they've been saying both are critical of player development at the U.

    I completely agree with your context on Loveridge/Childs. I know we were worried about them being the same player and I agree with your final thought of Childs doing well against Rawson. I don't think he'd be a significant player in the Pac-12. I do think even a little above average would help us.

    I also don't agree with those who believe our staff developed Taylor and Loveridge well. Taylor tailed off significantly his senior year. Loveridge turned himself into a three-point specialist and nothing else. I watched him work and he worked hard on his own. I rarely saw a coach working with him. He needed to develop an all court game - better ball-handling, better in the mid-range and in the post. I think he could have become a poor man's Jae Crowder but he had no one on the staff guiding him to that end.

    I'm a broken record but I think defense and player development are huge issues for this staff.
    My comp for Childs was Reyes, I should have been more specific.

    I would love to know what Kuzma has said negatively about Utah player development. I have heard him do nothing but praise it.

    I frankly couldn't care less what Brekkott thinks of the player development here.

    Your comment about Kuzma not fulfilling his potential as a ute is nearly moose level trolling........

  6. #156
    Dismissal of the ESPN ratings for recruits is pure apologetics. On what conceivable basis have posters here been praising LKs current class if not those or rivals? The fact is that the teams that tend to recruit the players highest rated by ESPN or Rivals tend to be the most successful. Utah cant afford to kiss off an in-state player of that caliber based on position. Childs has not been a surprise success.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Dismissal of the ESPN ratings for recruits is pure apologetics. On what conceivable basis have posters here been praising LK’s current class if not those or rivals?
    I think the praise is based on the fact that the incoming guys have strong offer lists.

    Childs was like Seljaas. We could have had him, we passed, he went to Provo, and no one thought twice about it. Turns out, we were right not to offer Seljaas and wrong not to offer Childs. I don't know that we really need to dwell on this.

    Larry's job is at stake with the new recruiting class. By all accounts, it is a good one. If he succeeds with it, we're all happy. If he can't get it done with this class, he's probably going to be asked to leave.

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Dismissal of the ESPN ratings for recruits is pure apologetics. On what conceivable basis have posters here been praising LK’s current class if not those or rivals? The fact is that the teams that tend to recruit the players highest rated by ESPN or Rivals tend to be the most successful. Utah can’t afford to kiss off an in-state player of that caliber based on position. Childs has not been a surprise success.
    247>rivals>>>>>>ESPN when it comes to college hoops recruiting. I don't know a single person who would ever highlight an ESPN rating (I say that knowing ESPN gave Tillman 4 stars when others gave him 3), unless they were trying to spin. Ill spare everyone the long rant but in person eyeball evaluation is not always among the criteria for ESPN.

    Yoeli is a great example. He went from top 50 to off the top 100 list completely to back in a number of times as a prep. Nobody with a credible system lets that happen.

    Sancho is right, its a pointless discussion. I just wanted to provide some context.
    Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 12-18-2017 at 08:30 AM.

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    By the way, am I the only one around here thinks that where is decision to cancel the 2016 game was an unforced error? Nothing good has come of it, it seems to me.
    Couldn't let this pass without a hearty LOL! Great troll, LA.

  10. #160
    Senior Member justaute's Avatar
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    To summarize:
    - LK is not very good at identifying and recruiting talent, sans a few exceptions. (e.g. Jokl)
    - LK is average at player development.
    - Not a particularly good X's and O's coach, either.

    Anything else?

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by justaute View Post
    To summarize:
    - LK is not very good at identifying and recruiting talent, sans a few exceptions. (e.g. Jokl)
    - LK is average at player development.
    - Not a particularly good X's and O's coach, either.

    Anything else?
    I'm not in love with Larry, but to think #2, that he doesn't develop players very well, is strange. In the past three years he has had 3 players that were not very highly recruited drafted in the first round of the draft. Show me another coach that has had that kind of success developing players. I think for Delon we were far and away his best offer; for Poetl we beat Cal for him and Arizona sniffed around him; and for Kuzma, I heard that UConn was interested and Mizzou, but I'm not sure how realistic those "offers" were.

    Criticize Larry all you want, and for some things (Xs and Os) I think he definitely deserves the criticism. But I think he's a pretty good developer of talent overall.

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    Nice to see you paying attention so closely. Tillman is out with a foot injury. I love how you come on critical of what you think the opinion is most of the board, when you obviously haven't even read two pages back in this thread.

    No shit. Great post. Seattle you're trolling as much as True Bloo does

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Good god. If what you all are saying about Childs is true, our coaches are fools. He was an ESPN four star rated the 53d best player in the country, and we let BYU have him? What kind of hubris caused them to string him along and go head to head with Arizona and UCLA for something better. Now look at us with Rawson in the starting lineup.
    But I will agree with you here. They considered Child a "tweener". They obviously failed to recognize his length which you can easily see when he plays. He plays much bigger than his height. He's a better local than all three of the lone peak kids (yes he's better than Mika) and every other local who went to BYU or Utah in quite some time.

    It is hubris. The local recruiters are extremely critical of the local kids. A huge whiff here.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 12-18-2017 at 09:59 AM.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    This childs thing has become a run away train and desperately needs some context....

    -first and foremost.....nobody cares about ESPN basketball rankings. The effort that goes into those is less than sincere.

    -let's go back in time to 2015. We had just had an undersized but physical 4 man struggle tremendously in league play. The thought of bringing in another wasn't ideal. The same fans now calling it a mistake would have barbecued Larry in real time (not that it matters in any way).

    -we had two young 4s going into their sophomore year. It wasn't a position of need in the class of 2016, and so they tried for a few home runs and struck out. Nobody could have predicted at that point that Kuz would bounce for the league when he did. Also, nobody predicted that Chapman wouldn't be up for the Larry K style and bounce. If one or both of those guys plays yesterday, we win and no one thinks twice about this.

    Also, they genuinely believed they had LM. didn't work out.

    -Yoeli did this against Tyler Rawson, who Ute fans have a ridiculous hate affair with. Who is to say he would be anything great in the Pac-12?
    But he's not undersized due to his length, which you can easily see, but our coaches missed that and considered him a tweener.

    Rose isn't even coaching half the time and he's a lazy recruiter. He just has kids fall into his lap. And we let Childs fall into his lap.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I'm not in love with Larry, but to think #2, that he doesn't develop players very well, is strange. In the past three years he has had 3 players that were not very highly recruited drafted in the first round of the draft. Show me another coach that has had that kind of success developing players. I think for Delon we were far and away his best offer; for Poetl we beat Cal for him and Arizona sniffed around him; and for Kuzma, I heard that UConn was interested and Mizzou, but I'm not sure how realistic those "offers" were.

    Criticize Larry all you want, and for some things (Xs and Os) I think he definitely deserves the criticism. But I think he's a pretty good developer of talent overall.
    So, you think having three straight players (all not big time recruits) go in the first round of NBA draft the past three years is evidence of player development? What a silly argument, Applejack.

    This year we don't have a wing/guard(s) scorer who can get us buckets. Our best three point threat is Rawson. Our best energy off the bench are two guys who were injured. Yeah, these things make us an average basketball team. We need some wings/guards who can score and we need more from a bench, which we currently don't have.

    Larry K really needs to realize that he has to fix these problems and get some good recruits. Oh, wait . . . I guess he has.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 12-18-2017 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Dismissal of the ESPN ratings for recruits is pure apologetics. On what conceivable basis have posters here been praising LK’s current class if not those or rivals? The fact is that the teams that tend to recruit the players highest rated by ESPN or Rivals tend to be the most successful. Utah can’t afford to kiss off an in-state player of that caliber based on position. Childs has not been a surprise success.

    Yoeli's best offer was BYU. He had one from ASU early, but it disappeared pretty quickly. He was doing everything he could to drum up some better offers, but couldn't do so. I put way more stock into what all of those coaches thought about him at the time than I do in what ESPN's recruiting guys had to say about him.

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, you think having three straight players (all not big time recruits) go in the first round of NBA draft the past three years is evidence of player development? What a silly argument, Applejack.

    This year we don't have a wing/guard(s) scorer who can get us buckets. Our best three point threat is Rawson. Our best energy off the bench are two guys who were injured. Yeah, these things make us an average basketball team. We need some wings/guards who can score and we need more from a bench, which we currently don't have.

    Larry K really needs to realize that he has to fix these problems and get some good recruits. Oh, wait . . . I guess he has.

    And in other news, a starting guard for NC State was suspended for conduct in violation of the athlete code of conduct after NC State lost to UNC Greensboro

    http://www.wralsportsfan.com/nc-stat...tion/17193657/


    Looks like a player culture at NC State that isn't very good. Do we know anybody who is on that team?

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Yoeli's best offer was BYU. He had one from ASU early, but it disappeared pretty quickly. He was doing everything he could to drum up some better offers, but couldn't do so. I put way more stock into what all of those coaches thought about him at the time than I do in what ESPN's recruiting guys had to say about him.

    Good points. But he is a local and our coaches jobs are to identify the best kids locally (because they are they ones who are most likely going to accept an offer to come to Utah--particularly nonmormons.) We didn't do that with Childs. Instead we did exactly what you said we did--follow the crowd. And we ended up with Jokl. Big time whiff. No other way to put it.

  19. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Good points. But he is a local and our coaches jobs are to identify the best kids locally (because they are they ones who are most likely going to accept an offer to come to Utah--particularly nonmormons.) We didn't do that with Childs. Instead we did exactly what you said we did--follow the crowd. And we ended up with Jokl. Big time whiff. No other way to put it.

    Oh I agree, it was a huge whiff, I was just saying that the fact that ESPN had him rated very highly really doesn't move the needle much in terms of indicating that he was an obvious can't-miss talent or something like that. But the U definitely messed up their evaluation.

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    And in other news, a starting guard for NC State was suspended for conduct in violation of the athlete code of conduct after NC State lost to UNC Greensboro

    http://www.wralsportsfan.com/nc-stat...tion/17193657/


    Looks like a player culture at NC State that isn't very good. Do we know anybody who is on that team?

    LOL. Shocking. Great catch.

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    So, you think having three straight players (all not big time recruits) go in the first round of NBA draft the past three years is evidence of player development? What a silly argument, Applejack.

    This year we don't have a wing/guard(s) scorer who can get us buckets. Our best three point threat is Rawson. Our best energy off the bench are two guys who were injured. Yeah, these things make us an average basketball team. We need some wings/guards who can score and we need more from a bench, which we currently don't have.

    Larry K really needs to realize that he has to fix these problems and get some good recruits. Oh, wait . . . I guess he has.
    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. But since I give everyone the benefit of the doubt,

  22. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. But since I give everyone the benefit of the doubt,
    I was being sarcastic. K and his staff clearly develop players.

  23. #173
    Senior Member justaute's Avatar
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    Hey, I was just summarizing what's been said, hence the smiley face.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    But he's not undersized due to his length, which you can easily see, but our coaches missed that and considered him a tweener.

    Rose isn't even coaching half the time and he's a lazy recruiter. He just has kids fall into his lap. And we let Childs fall into his lap.
    I did get a kick out of watching the game Saturday and during one timeout the camera was on BYU's huddle where Shroyer was drawing things up on the clipboard while Rose stood the side like the Smithers to his Mr Burns. Is Shroyer LDS? If so, he's probably their next head coach, right? May as well be the head coach already, it seems.

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Good points. But he is a local and our coaches jobs are to identify the best kids locally (because they are they ones who are most likely going to accept an offer to come to Utah--particularly nonmormons.) We didn't do that with Childs. Instead we did exactly what you said we did--follow the crowd. And we ended up with Jokl. Big time whiff. No other way to put it.
    I was always intrigued by Childs, but I'd be lying if I said I ever called for Utah to offer him in real time. In hindsight it was clearly a mistake and even though Utah was chasing several big fish at his position they probably should have gone ahead and taken him and then just redshirted him for Markannen's one (hypothetical) year in the program.*

    I did always feel that Utah overlooked McEwen up at Utah State who I believe would have come to Utah in a heartbeat. I don't know if he'd have been a high level PAC 12 player but I am confident he'd be better than several of the guards that have been on the roster last year and this year. It does feel like Utah is in a rut where we are either conceding local kids to BYU or overlooking their talent (or both).

    *Hard as it is to believe, two years ago Utah appeared to have a very stable roster that was well-stocked with talent and open scholarships were precious so I can see why Utah would be reluctant to take Childs AND one of the big guns they were chasing at the same position.

  26. #176
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    When you're driving around or working out, listen to this podcast of an ESPN 700 interview with Ben Criddle. His childlike wonder over the Grimes hire is simply adorable. I promise this will make you smile.

    Ben Criddle - Former BYU Cornerback and ESPN 960 Host - 12-14-17

    http://api.spreaker.com/download/epi...e_12_14_17.mp3

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by UBlender View Post
    I did get a kick out of watching the game Saturday and during one timeout the camera was on BYU's huddle where Shroyer was drawing things up on the clipboard while Rose stood the side like the Smithers to his Mr Burns. Is Shroyer LDS? If so, he's probably their next head coach, right? May as well be the head coach already, it seems.
    He's not LDS and he doesn't have that LDS personality like Dave Rice. He's fiery. Very unlikely he is the next coach and a real chance he becomes a head assistant somewhere else that will pay him a lot more given what he is accomplishing this year.

    I can't emphasize enough the fact that Schroyer's presence demonstrates the lack of coaching on that team prior to his arrival. The last couple of years were mostly a joke. Five white guys running and gunning and half assing it on defense. It simply just wasn't a recipe for success. These are the type of kids who will accept structure and coaching if it is forceful and demanding. They are showing it this year.

    This year is a complete indictment of Rose and the rest of that coaching staff. Cougar boosters who are closely following will not deny this.

  28. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    He's not LDS and he doesn't have that LDS personality like Dave Rice. He's fiery. Very unlikely he is the next coach and a real chance he becomes a head assistant somewhere else that will pay him a lot more given what he is accomplishing this year.

    I can't emphasize enough the fact that Schroyer's presence demonstrates the lack of coaching on that team prior to his arrival. The last couple of years were mostly a joke. Five white guys running and gunning and half assing it on defense. It simply just wasn't a recipe for success. These are the type of kids who will accept structure and coaching if it is forceful and demanding. They are showing it this year.

    This year is a complete indictment of Rose and the rest of that coaching staff. Cougar boosters who are closely following will not deny this.
    BYU requires that the head coach be LDS. So unless he converts, he won't be a head coach at BYU. BYU fans are worried that Utah State fires Duryea at the end of the year and hires Schroyer.

  29. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    BYU requires that the head coach be LDS. So unless he converts, he won't be a head coach at BYU. BYU fans are worried that Utah State fires Duryea at the end of the year and hires Schroyer.
    this was the reason Schroyer left for Wyoming the first time around, wasn't it?

  30. #180
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    When you're driving around or working out, listen to this podcast of an ESPN 700 interview with Ben Criddle. His childlike wonder over the Grimes hire is simply adorable. I promise this will make you smile.

    Ben Criddle - Former BYU Cornerback and ESPN 960 Host - 12-14-17

    http://api.spreaker.com/download/epi...e_12_14_17.mp3
    he actually worked the "kick against the pricks" scripture into his Grimes tongue fondling

    maybe he'll be good or maybe not, but he's been an offensive line coach since 1998 and apparently he was so highly thought if that nobody in those 19 years thought he should be promoted to OC?

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