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Thread: The health care debate thread.

  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    I don't believe Medicare can negotiate drug prices, which is just stupid. You can't say it isn't working when you won't let it try to work in the first place.

    Let Medicare negotiate drug prices. Watch how fast those costs drop.

    Medicare doesn't negotiate anything. They tell you the price and you decide if you want the large business. The problem is that to cut rates you have to go against a very powerful lobby. The AMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Canada has better healthcare than we do. So, even if that is what we did, it would be an improvement.
    What wrong with Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    We ration healthcare as well by cost.

    Also, we are seeing the benefits of a shitty, yet improved healthcare under the ACA. Costs have risen slower than before and bankruptcies are down 50% since then...and a large reason why is because people are insured.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.marke...6-40342CF4B8E3

    We've seen so much good from the ACA but it's not enough.

    I think it's crazy that we ignore the good, don't try to improve the bad and want to go back to a system am that we know is worse and more expensive

    Let's move forward. Keep the good, improve the bad. Let's not move backwards.

    "Make America Great Again" is nothing more than backwards movement. Let's move forward.
    Yes I agree we should take the good and get rid of the bad but these types of platitudes dont do the problem justice. The ACA has not made anything better. It simply passed the cost to the taxpayer.

    I know you are in love with everywhere else health care but have you actually had health care in any of those countries? If it was so great with a single payer why is the NHS in England in such trouble? As much as Canada does have some generally good health care they do have long waiting lists for care? What was the last great health care innovation that came out of spain? Yes our health system has serious issues but it does have some great parts to it.
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    And yet, every other first world government in the world provides better, cheaper healthcare.

    Hell, the ACA has reduced costs and bankruptcies. So, our government has done it better.

    Finally, the government is speedy Gonzalous compared to for profit insurance company that their whole business model is about not paying for healthcare.

    See the example above. Everything in our medical system is to not give patients what they have paid for (insurance) and then charge patients on the back end. It's a poor system and it shows in how much we pay and how little we get for it.

    Look at Chris. He paid for insurance. He should have acces to the care he paid for. Yet, he had to put in countless hours fighting to get what he paid for.

    And how many people don't do the work that he did and just pay the bill (so the insurance company and Dr's office have stolen from them)? How bad does that impact our economy? How many bankruptcies come about from this (about half, we are discovering)?

    How many dollars are taken away from people that they could have spent somewhere more effectively, like at a local, small business?

    How many jobs are lost?

    Healthcare is such a no brainer. Provide affordable healthcare. Free people up to be healthy, make money, innovate and progress.

    That's the Republican Party. Take the most intelligent, efficient way to do something and make it expensive, inefficient and profitable for you and your friends then whine about it all while invoking Jesus and something about abortions and marriage.
    Wow. Just . . . Wow.

    I don't know where to start. I think I'll just keep it simple and address your statement that "every other first world government in the world provides better, cheaper healthcare."

    As part of my wife's treatment, she was referred to a neuro specialist, who then ordered an MRI. The whole process took less than 2 weeks.

    In Canada in 2016, the average time to see a specialist after a referral is 20 weeks, and the average wait for an MRI is 11 weeks. That is more than half a year to suffer through a very painful condition. And those times continue to go up from the previous years, so things are getting worse. Does not sound better to me.

    https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2016

    i know that anecdotal evidence is not the strongest argument, but it seems sufficient to debunk some of your broad generalizations. I'm not advocating to keep the status quo. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that the problem is not black and white as you seem to see it, and the solutions lie somewhere on a spectrum.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    Wow. Just . . . Wow.

    I don't know where to start. I think I'll just keep it simple and address your statement that "every other first world government in the world provides better, cheaper healthcare."

    As part of my wife's treatment, she was referred to a neuro specialist, who then ordered an MRI. The whole process took less than 2 weeks.

    In Canada in 2016, the average time to see a specialist after a referral is 20 weeks, and the average wait for an MRI is 11 weeks. That is more than half a year to suffer through a very painful condition. And those times continue to go up from the previous years, so things are getting worse. Does not sound better to me.

    https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2016

    i know that anecdotal evidence is not the strongest argument, but it seems sufficient to debunk some of your broad generalizations. I'm not advocating to keep the status quo. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that the problem is not black and white as you seem to see it, and the solutions lie somewhere on a spectrum.
    It is not even anecdotal evidence unless there is a symmetry between your wife's situation and the same situation in Canada--you don't know if your wife would have gotten the MRI in two weeks in a place in Canada comparable to SLC. Even then it is only one anecdote. Would your wife have had the same experience in NYC or California? who knows.
    Last edited by concerned; 05-23-2017 at 02:39 PM.

  4. #484
    Here's some more antecdotal that has shaped my opinion.

    A friend lived in Germany. His wife had a hip problem. When they were in the US, she was told to lose weight.

    In Germany, she was immediately sent to a specialist. Two weeks later she sees the specialist. He orders an MRI. Two weeks later, that's done. She the. Has weekly appointments with a physical therapist with monthly follows ups with the specialist.

    She said she never felt better. Did this for two years. Total cost to her (above and beyond insurance premiums) was less than $400.

    They moved back to the US two years ago. The insurance won't pay for an MRI, the US Dr's won't continue tx, the insurance won't pay for PT and the Dr's are back to "lose weight."

    Oh, and they've paid over $3,000 on top of insurance premiums.

    Wait lists are so over blown. I can't get my kids into a pedo for my kids in Ogden that takes my insurance for 5 months.

    My wife had to wait 3 months to see her OBGYN.

    I was told it would be 6 weeks to see an urologist.

    We have wait times too.

    We are the worst in the developed world at providing fast, effective, affordable health care.

    Like Trump said, we should try to emulate Australia's superior single payer healthcare system.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    It is not even anecdotal evidence unless there is a symmetry between your wife's situation and the same situation in Canada--you don't know if your wife would have gotten the MRI in two weeks in a place in Canada comparable to SLC. Even then it is only one anecdote. Would your wife have had the same experience in NYC or California? who knows.
    Huh?

    Take it for what it's worth. I'm still confident my wife was better off with her treatment here than she would have been in Canada based on the article.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    For the cost of a hip replacement in the USA, you could move to Spain, get your replacement, live for a year, get another replacement then move back.

    'Merica. The best healthcare in the world, right?
    Damn. Sure wish we 'Mericans had a standard of living like the Spanish. Wouldn't THAT BE awesome

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Damn. Sure wish we 'Mericans had a standard of living like the Spanish. Wouldn't THAT BE awesome
    I think tapas is fake. The Spaniards looked around and saw people excited about French cuisine and Italian food and decided they needed to be known for something. Paella just wasn't enough. So they took something that exists everywhere - appetizers - and gave it a new name.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Medicare doesn't negotiate anything. They tell you the price and you decide if you want the large business. The problem is that to cut rates you have to go against a very powerful lobby. The AMA



    What wrong with Canada



    Yes I agree we should take the good and get rid of the bad but these types of platitudes dont do the problem justice. The ACA has not made anything better. It simply passed the cost to the taxpayer.

    I know you are in love with everywhere else health care but have you actually had health care in any of those countries? If it was so great with a single payer why is the NHS in England in such trouble? As much as Canada does have some generally good health care they do have long waiting lists for care? What was the last great health care innovation that came out of spain? Yes our health system has serious issues but it does have some great parts to it.

    Utah doesn't really enjoy facts. He just knows America sucks. it's part of his narrative. Helps him sleep at night.

    I'm done listening to someone tell me Sweden has an awesome health care program while ignoring the fact that we spend shit pounds of money to police the world and that is the ONLY reason they aren't currently part of Russia and using mass amounts of Vodka to dull the pain of any health care problems they might have.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think tapas is fake. The Spaniards looked around and saw people excited about French cuisine and Italian food and decided they needed to be known for something. Paella just wasn't enough. So they took something that exists everywhere - appetizers - and gave it a new name.
    I actually love Spain.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    I actually love Spain.
    Sure, everyone loves Spain. But tapas are fake, right?

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    Wow. Just . . . Wow.

    I don't know where to start. I think I'll just keep it simple and address your statement that "every other first world government in the world provides better, cheaper healthcare."

    As part of my wife's treatment, she was referred to a neuro specialist, who then ordered an MRI. The whole process took less than 2 weeks.

    In Canada in 2016, the average time to see a specialist after a referral is 20 weeks, and the average wait for an MRI is 11 weeks. That is more than half a year to suffer through a very painful condition. And those times continue to go up from the previous years, so things are getting worse. Does not sound better to me.

    https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2016

    i know that anecdotal evidence is not the strongest argument, but it seems sufficient to debunk some of your broad generalizations. I'm not advocating to keep the status quo. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that the problem is not black and white as you seem to see it, and the solutions lie somewhere on a spectrum.
    As an American who has lived in Canada for more than twenty years can I weigh in on the half-truths being discussed here? I will frame my remarks by first addressing the half-truth (HT), followed by providing the full-truth (FT) and any caveat that may apply …

    HT: Yes, wait times to see a specialist can be long. 20 weeks is an extreme, but certainly not unheard of. So, in a sense, the linked article is correct, except where it seems to ignore context (because context is detrimental to the Fraser Institute's particular, Libertarian agenda).

    FT: Wait times are long, only because those in urgent need (here’s the context) are placed at the front of the line and given priority. In other words, if your family doctor discerns you can wait to see a specialist, you are put in the standard queue for all patients who are not in need of urgent care. Whereas, if you are in need of urgent care, then you get the MRI ASAP—same day.

    CAVEAT: Diagnostic services in hospitals are staffed and available to doctors 24/7. Therefore, if your needs are not urgent, but you are willing. You can ask to be placed in a standby queue.

    That may mean you get a phone call during the daytime indicating that there could be an opening anywhere between 11:00 pm that night and 5:00 am the next morning. If a spot opens up, you will be asked to get to the hospital, with a half-hours notice. Many standby spots are available on weekends.

    The hard reality is, wait times are long largely because people only want to see the doctor, or receive diagnostic care between the hours of 10:00 am and 4:00 pm, Monday to Friday.
    Last edited by tooblue; 05-23-2017 at 04:25 PM.

  12. #492
    there was an interesting op-ed in the nyt today from Bruce Bartlett (Republican economist) pointing out that as long as health care is employer based and financed, it will be a huge drag on the competitiveness of American business worldwide, and will leave gaps in coverage. He proposes making health care coverage individual through exchanges, like Obamacare to some extent, and giving those who cant afford it tax credits or some other way to buy insurance. Getting closer to single payer. fwiw

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/o...ht-region&_r=0

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    As an American who has lived in Canada for more than twenty years can I weigh in on the half-truths being discussed here? I will frame my remarks by first addressing the half-truth (HT), followed by providing the full-truth (FT) and any caveat that may apply …

    HT: Yes, wait times to see a specialist can be long. 20 weeks is an extreme, but certainly not unheard of. So, in a sense, the linked article is correct, except where it seems to ignore context (because context is detrimental to the Fraser Institute's particular, Libertarian agenda).

    FT: Wait times are long, only because those in urgent need (here’s the context) are placed at the front of the line and given priority. In other words, if your family doctor discerns you can wait to see a specialist, you are put in the standard queue for all patients who are not in need of urgent care. Whereas, if you are in need of urgent care, then you get the MRI ASAP—same day.

    CAVEAT: Diagnostic services in hospitals are staffed and available to doctors 24/7. Therefore, if your needs are not urgent, but you are willing. You can ask to be placed in a standby queue.

    That may mean you get a phone call during the daytime indicating that there could be an opening anywhere between 11:00 pm that night and 5:00 am the next morning. If a spot opens up, you will be asked to get to the hospital, with a half-hours notice. Many standby spots are available on weekends.

    The hard reality is, wait times are long largely because people only want to see the doctor, or receive diagnostic care between the hours of 10:00 am and 4:00 pm, Monday to Friday.
    Awesome. So if I want to get the MRI that my doc deems not an "emergency", I can get my ass out of bed at 2:00 a.m. and speed on down to the hospital.


    On second thought, I'll go ahead and stick with what I've got here--at least until the proletariat takes their shovels and pitch forks and overthrows the government.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Awesome. So if I want to get the MRI that my doc deems not an "emergency", I can get my ass out of bed at 2:00 a.m. and speed on down to the hospital.


    On second thought, I'll go ahead and stick with what I've got here--at least until the proletariat takes their shovels and pitch forks and overthrows the government.
    Or he will admit you to Emergency right there in his office, and you will head straight to the hospital and get the MRI sometime that day. Unless, his/her clinic has the diagnostic machine on site. Then you will walk down the hallway, or into the next building and get the MRI. How is that any different than in the states?

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Or he will admit you to Emergency right there in his office, and you will head straight to the hospital and get the MRI sometime that day. Unless, his/her clinic has the diagnostic machine on site. Then you will walk down the hallway, or into the next building and get the MRI. How is that any different than in the states?
    Oh, wait. I know how it's different. That level of care is available to everyone. In other words, everyone is insured.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Oh, wait. I know how it's different. That level of care is available to everyone. In other words, everyone is insured.

    Go ahead and read my post again.

    Awesome. So if I want to get the MRI that my doc deems not an "emergency",

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Go ahead and read my post again.
    As far as I can tell, the proletariat hasn't yet risen up. It is estimated there are still 20 + million Americans who are uninsured. So, ya; I get it.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    Go ahead and read my post again.

    Awesome. So if I want to get the MRI that my doc deems not an "emergency",
    But that's where you talk with your doctor and explain that you feel it is an emergency, and the doctor places you at the front of the line.

    The problem is though, everybody feels they belong at the front of the line.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    But that's where you talk with your doctor and explain that you feel it is an emergency, and the doctor places you at the front of the line.

    The problem is though, everybody feels they belong at the front of the line.
    I don't think you are making as strong a case as you think.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    We keep saying, "who will pay for it?"

    Yet, we currently pay more for healthcare and get the worst results.

    Why don't we take the money already being spent, and spend it better.

    Yeah, your taxes might go up. But your healthcare costs will go down, creating a wash, at worst.

    Odds are, costs would go down overall under single payer, because we already pay more than everyone else.
    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-...151960182.html

    Each of California's estimated 38.5 million people would have to pay over $5000 per year to make up the $200 Billion difference.
    Last edited by chrisrenrut; 05-23-2017 at 09:45 PM.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  21. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    I don't think you are making as strong a case as you think.
    I am the only individual here who has actual, direct experience with both health care systems as an adult. One of the main reasons I choose to continue to live in Canada is because of the Canadian health care system. The biggest stumbling block to me ever returning to the US for work, plain and simply, is the US health care system. The wait list issues you site, are not as egregious as you are want to believe. The notion that your wife received superior care in the US is patently false. So, yes; my case is stronger than anyone else's here, precisely because it is the only one not offered from a position of ignorance.

  22. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    I am the only individual here who has actual, direct experience with both health care systems as an adult. One of the main reasons I choose to continue to live in Canada is because of the Canadian health care system. The biggest stumbling block to me ever returning to the US for work, plain and simply, is the US health care system. The wait list issues you site, are not as egregious as you are want to believe. The notion that your wife received superior care in the US is patently false. So, yes; my case is stronger than anyone else's here, precisely because it is the only one not offered from a position of ignorance.
    So anecdotal evidence, right?

    So in your argument, you called out half-truths. Half truths mean mean there is some truth.

    And wait times are not bad, if you are dying. Or willing to come in at 2:00 am. Or can convincingly lie to your doctor about the severity of your issue (which it sounds like everyone does, meaning everyone gets priority).
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  23. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    So anecdotal evidence, right?

    So in your argument, you called out half-truths. Half truths mean mean there is some truth.

    And wait times are not bad, if you are dying. Or willing to come in at 2:00 am. Or can convincingly lie to your doctor about the severity of your issue (which it sounds like everyone does, meaning everyone gets priority).

    • Have I ever had an MRI in Canada? Yes. Did I have to wait 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. (knee injury playing pick up basketball, to determine whether I needed surgery; as well as back injury sustained on a Scout portage camping trip [canoeing])
    • Have my children (five sons), injured playing sports ever had an MRI, or required other diagnostic services due to other injures? Yes. Have they ever waited 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. Have those procedures been done the same day (within hours), say after severely dislocating a shoulder playing rugby? Yes. Or Breaking a leg playing football? Yes. (two sons in the same week!)
    • Has my wife every had an MRI, or required other diagnostic services for any variety of issues? Yes. Did she ever have to wait 20 weeks, let alone 11? No, never. In fact women tend to get appointments quicker than men.
    • Have I ever needed a colonoscopy or similar procedures? Yes. Have I ever had to wait 20, let alone 11 weeks? No. In fact I have the procedure every two years because I am at high risk of cancer.
    • Have my in-laws, in their 80's ever required an MRI or other diagnostic services for any variety of issues? Yes. Have they ever waited 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. (father in-law with prostate cancer in remission. Mother in-law needing several MRI's for certain issues—never had to wait)
    • Did I suggest lying to a doctor? No. Did I suggest talking with the doctor and expressing concern for the need for a procedure right away? Yes. Have we done this in certain circumstances? Yes. Did I suggest this is a cause of the long waits? Yes. Because everyone believes they are more important that everyone else. But, have we also waited for non-urgent diagnostic procedures? Yes. 20 weeks? Never. 11 weeks? Not quite, more like 8 or 9. Have we ever taken a late night standby appointment? Yes, on a couple of occasions. Was it a big deal. No, it was kinda nice because the hospital wasn't busy.
    • Have two of my infant sons needed surgical procedures for say a hypospadias? Yes. Was the consult and surgery done without ending up on a waiting list? Yes—each son was given priority at one of the best children's hospitals in north America.
    • When newly married and pregnant and living in the US, despite paying for my own insurance coverage because I was self-employed and a student. But because I made too much money and it wasn't covered by my insurance, was I told by the hospital we would have to TAKE OUT A LOAN to pay for the birth of our first child? Yes. Did my insurance inform me they would only cover the cost of doctors visits up to a maximum of $500? Yes. Did we make plans to fly my wife home to Canada to have the baby because it was cheaper? Yes.


    Should I go on, talking about my wife's siblings? Or maybe good friends? How about my brother-in-law, recently married to an American, and how they live at the border in the US, so that he can continue to work in Canada and access health care, despite the fact the only reason she works is to ensure their now blended family has health care?

    I know, I know ... all anecdotal. But of course, so is your comment your wife received better care, despite your unquestioned support of the "research" found in the linked article offered in support of said anecdote. Which was written by a decidedly libertarian think tank with a suspect ideology. Of course, anecdotal evidence can be considered empirical, because stories can be verified. Especially, when there are several first person accounts to compare. While you have one instance for all to consider. I have more than 20 years of instances, times nine individuals with whom I am intimately connected. Oh, and concerning the Fraser Institutes' findings:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/fraser...ique-1.3867927
    Last edited by tooblue; 05-24-2017 at 12:02 AM.

  24. #504
    So tooblue, you said previously the biggest stumbling block to returning to the US (aside from the several warrants for your arrest for being a full-blooded myopic zoob I assume) is our healthcare system? What about our healthcare system fails you? I presume you would come here and continue to be a teacher of some sort no?

    Most of our systems failings are to the poor or the self-employed. I've worked for myself for years so I have reasons to gripe (and most of my gripes actually come as a result of ACA). But last time I was gainfully employed by someone else I negotiated that they pay 100% of my premiums and had a $500 deductible.

    Also would you clarify, does healthcare in Canada cover elective procedures or does the patient bear the cost of those? I'm assuming Chris's issue with the improper coding was it got coded as an elective procedure hence the "lack of coverage" until it got coded correctly. Or does the Canadian healthcare system never have clerical issues?

    Also, does your country enjoy the benefits of being America's hat and as a result not have to bear the real cost of defense or the western way of life?

    Are you required to stare dreamily at your PMs picture on the wall or wax nostalgic about Fidel Castro should the occasion arise?

    Are you required to get upset if someone jokes about Canada being America's hat or give dirty looks if someone says, "Ah Canada, a country where all the English speakers are comprised of people in the US's witness protection program..."

    Are you mad now as the only adult to ever live in both countries so you are the only person who can speak authoritatively that now people here suspect you are there as part of the witness protection program?

    Do Canadians get as pissed off as we do when someone slips in fake Canadian money as part of their change?

    Are Canadians jealous that we like Australians more?

    Are there any notable actors, musicians or other entertainers from Canada that you would like to remind us about their nationality every 13 seconds?

    Are Canadians actually polite simply because there are being held at gunpoint by their government at all times?

    Is it an indictment of Canada that even the people who threatened to move there from the US if Trump was elected still stayed because the US run by a narcissistic and incompetent buffoon is still better than Canada?

    How often do you have to say, "Well Toronto is actually very nice..."?




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    • Have I ever had an MRI in Canada? Yes. Did I have to wait 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. (knee injury playing pick up basketball, to determine whether I needed surgery; as well as back injury sustained on a Scout portage camping trip [canoeing])
    • Have my children (five sons), injured playing sports ever had an MRI, or required other diagnostic services due to other injures? Yes. Have they ever waited 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. Have those procedures been done the same day (within hours), say after severely dislocating a shoulder playing rugby? Yes. Or Breaking a leg playing football? Yes. (two sons in the same week!)
    • Has my wife every had an MRI, or required other diagnostic services for any variety of issues? Yes. Did she ever have to wait 20 weeks, let alone 11? No, never. In fact women tend to get appointments quicker than men.
    • Have I ever needed a colonoscopy or similar procedures? Yes. Have I ever had to wait 20, let alone 11 weeks? No. In fact I have the procedure every two years because I am at high risk of cancer.
    • Have my in-laws, in their 80's ever required an MRI or other diagnostic services for any variety of issues? Yes. Have they ever waited 20 weeks, let alone 11? No. (father in-law with prostate cancer in remission. Mother in-law needing several MRI's for certain issues—never had to wait)
    • Did I suggest lying to a doctor? No. Did I suggest talking with the doctor and expressing concern for the need for a procedure right away? Yes. Have we done this in certain circumstances? Yes. Did I suggest this is a cause of the long waits? Yes. Because everyone believes they are more important that everyone else. But, have we also waited for non-urgent diagnostic procedures? Yes. 20 weeks? Never. 11 weeks? Not quite, more like 8 or 9. Have we ever taken a late night standby appointment? Yes, on a couple of occasions. Was it a big deal. No, it was kinda nice because the hospital wasn't busy.
    • Have two of my infant sons needed surgical procedures for say a hypospadias? Yes. Was the consult and surgery done without ending up on a waiting list? Yes—each son was given priority at one of the best children's hospitals in north America.
    • When newly married and pregnant and living in the US, despite paying for my own insurance coverage because I was self-employed and a student. But because I made too much money and it wasn't covered by my insurance, was I told by the hospital we would have to TAKE OUT A LOAN to pay for the birth of our first child? Yes. Did my insurance inform me they would only cover the cost of doctors visits up to a maximum of $500? Yes. Did we make plans to fly my wife home to Canada to have the baby because it was cheaper? Yes.


    Should I go on, talking about my wife's siblings? Or maybe good friends? How about my brother-in-law, recently married to an American, and how they live at the border in the US, so that he can continue to work in Canada and access health care, despite the fact the only reason she works is to ensure their now blended family has health care?

    I know, I know ... all anecdotal. But of course, so is your comment your wife received better care, despite your unquestioned support of the "research" found in the linked article offered in support of said anecdote. Which was written by a decidedly libertarian think tank with a suspect ideology. Of course, anecdotal evidence can be considered empirical, because stories can be verified. Especially, when there are several first person accounts to compare. While you have one instance for all to consider. I have more than 20 years of instances, times nine individuals with whom I am intimately connected. Oh, and concerning the Fraser Institutes' findings:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/fraser...ique-1.3867927

    Your milk comes in bags....BAGS!
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  26. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    So tooblue, you said previously the biggest stumbling block to returning to the US (aside from the several warrants for your arrest for being a full-blooded myopic zoob I assume) is our healthcare system? What about our healthcare system fails you? I presume you would come here and continue to be a teacher of some sort no?

    Most of our systems failings are to the poor or the self-employed. I've worked for myself for years so I have reasons to gripe (and most of my gripes actually come as a result of ACA). But last time I was gainfully employed by someone else I negotiated that they pay 100% of my premiums and had a $500 deductible.

    Also would you clarify, does healthcare in Canada cover elective procedures or does the patient bear the cost of those? I'm assuming Chris's issue with the improper coding was it got coded as an elective procedure hence the "lack of coverage" until it got coded correctly. Or does the Canadian healthcare system never have clerical issues?

    Also, does your country enjoy the benefits of being America's hat and as a result not have to bear the real cost of defense or the western way of life?

    Are you required to stare dreamily at your PMs picture on the wall or wax nostalgic about Fidel Castro should the occasion arise?

    Are you required to get upset if someone jokes about Canada being America's hat or give dirty looks if someone says, "Ah Canada, a country where all the English speakers are comprised of people in the US's witness protection program..."

    Are you mad now as the only adult to ever live in both countries so you are the only person who can speak authoritatively that now people here suspect you are there as part of the witness protection program?

    Do Canadians get as pissed off as we do when someone slips in fake Canadian money as part of their change?

    Are Canadians jealous that we like Australians more?

    Are there any notable actors, musicians or other entertainers from Canada that you would like to remind us about their nationality every 13 seconds?

    Are Canadians actually polite simply because there are being held at gunpoint by their government at all times?

    Is it an indictment of Canada that even the people who threatened to move there from the US if Trump was elected still stayed because the US run by a narcissistic and incompetent buffoon is still better than Canada?

    How often do you have to say, "Well Toronto is actually very nice..."?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thank you, Rocker Ute, the Sarah Palin of utahby5.com (and utefans.net on weekends). Hey, can you see the College football playoffs from your front yard?

    Did you know Two Utes has visited with his family several times? Of course, it’s not Spain he’s fond of reminding people, but then again, neither is the US apparently ;-)

    Mormon Red Death will be here with his teaming brood in a couple of weeks. They visit frequently. A good time will be had by all, though admittedly, they mostly come for the doughnuts.

    On which part of the body does one usually where a hat? On their head which contains their brains. So, then, is Canada a hat, or in fact the real brains from which Americans get all their good ideas … like, for example: the game of basketball, 11-man football, Superman and many of the best comedians and actors?

    Who’s hunkier: Ryan Reynolds, Ryan Gosling, or the right honorable Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau? Please tell us … you seem to be very in-the-know about such things.

    How often do you find yourself saying: “Screw Derek Harper and Ronny Seikaly. Utah is a great place to live and raise a family.”

    Also, why is the narcissist in chief so frightened of Canada he was ready to tear up NAFTA … at least until a certain dreamy Canadian Prime Minister stepped in and talked him out of it

    To your other points—some electives are covered, some are not. It depends. If your doctor feels it’s in the best interest of your mental and physical well-being, universal health care can pay for you breast enhancement surgery. If not, you must pay out of pocket, or maybe your supplemental insurance through your employer will cover it?

    Yes. There is employer provided supplemental health insurance on top of universal health care. Because, dental, eye care and certain elective procedures are not paid for by the government.
    Last edited by tooblue; 05-24-2017 at 08:11 AM.

  27. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Thank you, Rocker Ute, the Sarah Palin of utahby5.com (and utefans.net on weekends). Hey, can you see the College football playoffs from your front yard?

    Did you know Two Utes has visited with his family several times? Of course, it’s not Spain he’s fond of reminding people, but then again, neither is the US apparently ;-)

    Mormon Red Death will be here with his teaming brood in a couple of weeks. They visit frequently. A good time will be had by all, though admittedly, they mostly come for the doughnuts.

    On which part of the body does one usually where a hat? On their head which contains their brains. So, then, is Canada a hat, or in fact the real brains from which Americans get all their good ideas … like, for example: the game of basketball, 11-man football, Superman and many of the best comedians and actors?

    Who’s hunkier: Ryan Reynolds, Ryan Gosling, or the right honorable Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau? Please tell us … you seem to be very in-the-know about such things.

    How often do you find yourself saying: “Screw Derek Harper and Ronny Seikaly. Utah is a great place to live and raise a family.”

    Also, why is the narcissist in chief so frightened of Canada he was ready to tear up NAFTA … at least until a certain dreamy Canadian Prime Minister stepped in and talked him out of it

    To your other points—some electives are covered, some are not. It depends. If your doctor feels it’s in the best interest of your mental and physical well-being, universal health care can pay for you breast enhancement surgery. If not, you must pay out of pocket, or maybe your supplemental insurance through your employer will cover it?

    Yes. There is employer provided supplemental health insurance on top of universal health care. Because, dental, eye care and certain elective procedures are not paid for by the government.
    It was a good attempt.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  28. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Your milk comes in bags....BAGS!
    You and your progeny will be drinking from those awesome bags* soon enough buddy. Oh, and we've told Tim Hortons you are coming. I think they may be preparing something special for you.

    *

  29. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    It was a good attempt.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    More like:


  30. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    More like:

    Yeah, the hat = brains stretch was devastating.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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