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Thread: Marriage Equality Thread

  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    My wife falls into this category. She's just wired that way. I'm the cook. She bakes. She gets annoyed with me because I can't necessarily tell her how long or how much of an ingredient to use. She bakes because it's an exercise in precision. Cooking is too whimsical. At church, she teaches the 12-13 year olds and the lesson manual is much more cooking instruction where as the old style was baking instruction. Drives her crazy. She didn't really grow up in the church though, so I think there's also an element of insecurity there in not always having a really good grasp of the material.
    That makes sense. Conversely, it seems that the people who think they have a good grasp of the material and don't prepare much have bad lessons and the ones who work hard to prepare have amazing lessons. I have no tolerance for the standard EQ lesson where they flip open the manual and say, "Okay, what lesson are we on?" When I was in charge of assigning such lessons I always let the teacher know that approach was not okay. They were given a month (in this case) to prepare and they should use it. We had some great lessons when they took that seriously.

    So let your wife know that I would much rather participate in a lesson of someone who might struggle and bumble around a bit but has put in the time to study and prepare than the slick haired RM who thinks his mastery of the discussions on his mission means he can wing it or someone who is just following along in a manual. The former is invariably much much better than the latter.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That's just because you've never seen this​ slick haired RM wing it on Sunday morning.
    There are always exceptions to the rules.

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Where's my Mormon red death cartoon? !
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  4. #964
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I can't find the cartoon book. I'm suspecting my kids as the likely borrowers who didn't return it. I haven't forgotten.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Well Alma 1 :24 says if their heart is hardened blot their name off the record.
    Alma was a dick. And a hypocrite. He certainly treated his own son better than that!

  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    What a horrible way to approach less active people.
    I'm sure at least some people would be appreciative. It's pretty creepy when you've gone through the name removal process and the reactivation crew still shows up at your new house before all your furniture does.

  7. #967
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    while I enjoy the new Sunday School teaching format for the youth, we are now on the 3rd year of the same lessons

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    I'm sure at least some people would be appreciative. It's pretty creepy when you've gone through the name removal process and the reactivation crew still shows up at your new house before all your furniture does.
    After reading this thread, I resubmitted my resignation, for the first time by email. The typical form includes your address.

    So on cue, the ward clerk showed up at our house tonight. He's a super nice guy and has no clue that the reason my name just popped up an his ward list is that I submitted a resignation request. I strangely know the guys nephew from Illinois, and I would say that I would have otherwise genuinely enjoyed the interaction had it not been brought to fruition by the duplicitous actions of the records office. I left the church with no hard feelings, but I have to say that the difficulty I've had in completely severing ties has made me pretty resentful. Why does it have to be like this?

  9. #969
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    After reading this thread, I resubmitted my resignation, for the first time by email. The typical form includes your address.

    So on cue, the ward clerk showed up at our house tonight. He's a super nice guy and has no clue that the reason my name just popped up an his ward list is that I submitted a resignation request. I strangely know the guys nephew from Illinois, and I would say that I would have otherwise genuinely enjoyed the interaction had it not been brought to fruition by the duplicitous actions of the records office. I left the church with no hard feelings, but I have to say that the difficulty I've had in completely severing ties has made me pretty resentful. Why does it have to be like this?
    Note to self: put in a resignation letter when I need help moving furniture around my house.

  10. #970
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    After reading this thread, I resubmitted my resignation, for the first time by email. The typical form includes your address.

    So on cue, the ward clerk showed up at our house tonight. He's a super nice guy and has no clue that the reason my name just popped up an his ward list is that I submitted a resignation request. I strangely know the guys nephew from Illinois, and I would say that I would have otherwise genuinely enjoyed the interaction had it not been brought to fruition by the duplicitous actions of the records office. I left the church with no hard feelings, but I have to say that the difficulty I've had in completely severing ties has made me pretty resentful. Why does it have to be like this?
    It's supposed to be a pretty straightforward process. I don't know what went wrong in your case. Hope it gets better.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's supposed to be a pretty straightforward process. I don't know what went wrong in your case. Hope it gets better.
    Thanks,
    Apparently, roadblocks seem to be more common in the last ten years, and because it is handled locally, the process differs extensively person to person. First I should note that the standard form that people use as a template for their resignation letters (it will be rejected if it's not modified apparently) includes a request for no contact. Each time I tried I was contacted by 1) the bishop requiring an interview before acknowledging the resignation 2) missionaries 2) ward clerk. The thing that struck me as most odd about those interactions is that my religious/spiritual opinions weren't so much the topic of discussion as were my profession, and in the two instances when they came to my house, how nice my house was. I'm not loaded, but I do pretty well and am engaged in a profession that's well-respected seemingly by Mormons*. In each interaction, I was left feeling like my resignation would have been processed immediately if I lived in a run-down trailer, and if I didn't look like a potentially good source of tithing money. That may be paranoid, but the way each conversation went to house/job and not my religious/spiritual preferences was weird.

    *I gave a presentation at work and while people were asking me questions in a small group at the podium afterwards. Someone who I never met before butted in to try and reactivate me. That's the kind of stuff that prompts resignation rather than just ignoring it*
    Last edited by jrj84105; 05-20-2015 at 05:08 PM.

  12. #972
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Would Lincoln have supported same-sex marriage?

    http://dailysignal.com/2015/05/10/wo...erals-use-him/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #973
    This picture mocks strict gender roles. I think it is kind of funny.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #974
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This picture mocks strict gender roles. I think it is kind of funny.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  15. #975
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I don't know that I agree with everything this author says but I don't think his arguments can be dismissed easily.

    You Will Be Assimilated

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #976
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This picture mocks strict gender roles. I think it is kind of funny.

    more than kind of. I made sandwhiches for lunch and my wife was confused when I started laughing out loud for no reason.

  17. #977
    Supreme court rules 5-4 in favor of same sex marriage.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  18. #978
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    Supreme court rules 5-4 in favor of same sex marriage.
    Damn. I wish I would've known that the world ended before I came to work this morning. I could've stayed in bed.

  19. #979
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    You legal types will have to confirm this, but it seems like this is poor form, even for Scalia.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8851173...lia/in/8271596

  20. #980
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    From Chief Justice Roberts' dissenting opinion:

    If you are among the many Americans—of whatever sexual orientation—who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today’s decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it.
    Anyway, let's move on. The issue is decided for everyone.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #981
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    You legal types will have to confirm this, but it seems like this is poor form, even for Scalia.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8851173...lia/in/8271596
    I think his points are to be expected and are pretty standard for him. Those who are happy with the outcome will applaud the decision, but you asked for a legal point of view. Constitutional jurisprudence is not supposed to be about outcomes, it's supposed to be about what the Constitution says. Reasonable people disagree about that, often vehemently.

    The problem, as I see it, is this: We have a judicial cram-down. We have a decision that changes marriage for everyone in the USA, forever. It was made by a single vote in the Supreme Court. If the people of the USA had decided to make that change, that would be acceptable to me (and I think we were headed that direction anyway). It's bad government to make breathtaking changes this way, by 5-4 decisions in the Supreme Court. People aren't going to simply shrug their shoulders and fall in line with this, and the culture war will just get worse.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-26-2015 at 09:52 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    You legal types will have to confirm this, but it seems like this is poor form, even for Scalia.

    http://www.vox.com/2015/6/26/8851173...lia/in/8271596
    To me Scalia's dissent the last two days are extremely poor form. He really personalizes his attack on the integrity and motives of the majority opionion. He didn't have to, and shouldn't have. It is demeaning to the strength of his argument. Hard to see how you could be collegial in the face of the ad hominim and sarcastic attacks.

    I suspect that is why Roberts did not join his dissent today. Roberts did it right.
    Last edited by concerned; 06-26-2015 at 09:50 AM.

  23. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think his points are to be expected and are pretty standard for him. Those who are happy with the outcome will applaud the decision, but you asked for a legal point of view. Constitutional jurisprudence is not supposed to be about outcomes, it's supposed to be about what the Constitution says. Reasonable people disagree about that, often vehemently.

    The problem, as I see it, is this: We have a judicial cram-down. We have a decision that changes marriage for everyone in the USA, forever. It was made by a single vote in the Supreme Court. If the people of the USA had decided to make that change, that would be acceptable to me (and I think we were headed that direction anyway). It's bad government to make breathtaking changes this way, by 5-4 decisions in the Supreme Court. People aren't going to simply shrug their shoulders and fall in line with this, and the culture war will just get worse.
    The last paragraph of Kennedy's opinion really potentially expands the concept of fundamental rights to include dignity as well.privacy from Griswold and roe. I thought it was quite expansive.

  24. #984
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I don't think this part of Scalia's dissent was over the top:

    I join THE CHIEF JUSTICE’s opinion in full. I write separately to call attention to this Court’s threat to American democracy.The substance of today’s decree is not of immense personal importance to me. The law can recognize as marriage whatever sexual attachments and living arrangements it wishes, and can accord them favorable civil consequences, from tax treatment to rights of inheritance.
    Those civil consequences—and the public approval that conferring the name of marriage evidences—can perhaps have adverse social effects, but no more adverse than the effects of many other controversial laws. So it is not of special importance to me what the law says about marriage. It is of overwhelming importance, however, who it is that rules me. Today’s decree says that my Ruler, and the Ruler of 320 million Americans coast-to-coast, is a majority of the nine lawyers on the Supreme Court. The opinion in these cases is the furthest extension in fact— and the furthest extension one can even imagine—of the Court’s claimed power to create “liberties” that the Constitution and its Amendments neglect to mention. This practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine, always accompanied (as it is today) by extravagant praise of liberty, robs the People of the most important liberty they asserted in the Declaration of Independence and won in the Revolution of 1776: the freedom to govern themselves.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #985
    The part where he said he would put a bag over his head it he traded a fifth vote was really in poor taste as was his accusation that Kennedy was straining for memorable quotes and utterly pretentious. No need for that whatsoever. Extremely ironic since Scalia is always playing to the cheap seats.

    The ask a hippie line was funny but demeaned the significance of the issues at stake.
    Last edited by concerned; 06-26-2015 at 10:18 AM.

  26. #986
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The problem, as I see it, is this: We have a judicial cram-down. We have a decision that changes marriage for everyone in the USA, forever.


    I don't see how it changes anything for the 99% of marriages which are heterosexual. Its business as usual.

  27. #987
    Get Bent, Scalia. The Citizens United decision was many orders of magnitude more damaging and divisive to the nation than this gay marriage decision is or will be.

    I can appreciate people who are appalled at the methodology, but I think in the end most will agree that this is the right outcome.

  28. #988
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post


    I don't see how it changes anything for the 99% of marriages which are heterosexual. Its business as usual.
    More Nino:

    Until the courts put a stop to it, public debate over same-sex marriage displayed American democracy at its best. Individuals on both sides of the issue passionately, but respectfully, attempted to persuade their fellow citizens to accept their views. Americans considered the arguments and put the question to a vote. The electorates of 11 States, either directly or through their representatives, chose to expand the traditional definition of marriage. Many more decided not to.1 Win or lose, advocates for both sides continued pressing their cases, secure in the knowledge that an electoral loss can be negated by a later electoral win. That is exactly how our system of government is supposed to work. [...]

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #989
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't think this part of Scalia's dissent was over the top:
    This seems to be the pertinent part of his dissension:

    Today’s decree says that my Ruler, and the Ruler of 320 million Americans coast-to-coast, is a majority of the nine lawyers on the Supreme Court. The opinion in these cases is the furthest extension in fact— and the furthest extension one can even imagine—of the Court’s claimed power to create “liberties” that the Constitution and its Amendments neglect to mention. This practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine, always accompanied (as it is today) by extravagant praise of liberty, robs the People of the most important liberty they asserted in the Declaration of Independence and won in the Revolution of 1776: the freedom to govern themselves.
    This sounds like a "you're not the boss of me" tantrum of my 7 year old. The only thing "robbed" from the people was the ability to take something from others. I understand and believe in the "states rights" argument of allowing states to make laws to govern themselves, but at some point you have to have the ability to step in and say "You've gone too far" when the small mindedness of the local majority uses that argument to persecute people who they don't like.

    I'm not a lawyer, so maybe I've got the point of his dissent wrong.

  30. #990
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Going forward the only issue I care about is religious liberty. Good summary from the Washington Post of what today's decision says about that:

    *****

    Here are the key excerpts on religious liberty from the Supreme Court’s decision on gay marriage

    The case has raised questions over how legalizing gay marriage would affect religious institutions.

    During oral arguments in March, Justice Samuel Alito compared the case to that of Bob Jones University, a fundamentalist Christian university in South Carolina. The Supreme Court ruled in 1983 the school was not entitled to a tax-exempt status if it barred interracial marriage.

    Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr., arguing for the same-sex couples on behalf of the Obama administration, said,”You know, **I don’t think I can answer that question without knowing more specifics, but it’s certainly going to be an issue. I don’t deny that. I don’t deny that, Justice Alito. It is –it is going to be an issue.”

    Friday’s ruling will raise questions again on that issue.


    Here’s a key section on religious views from the majority ruling:

    “Many who deem same-sex marriage to be wrong reach that conclusion based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises, and neither they nor their beliefs are disparaged here. But when that sincere, personal opposition becomes enacted law and public policy, the necessary consequence is to put the imprimatur of the State itself on an exclusion that soon demeans or stigmatizes those whose own liberty is then denied. Under the Constitution, same-sex couples seek in marriage the same legal treatment as opposite-sex couples, and it would disparage their choices and diminish their personhood to deny them this right.”

    Here’s another key section on religion from the majority opinion:

    “Finally, it must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned. The First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations to continue the family structure they have long revered.”

    In his dissent, Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. discussed religious liberty concerns. “Today’s decision, for example, creates serious questions about religious liberty,” Roberts wrote. “Many good and decent people oppose same-sex marriage as a tenet of faith, and their freedom to exercise religion is—unlike the right imagined by the majority— actually spelled out in the Constitution.”

    “Respect for sincere religious conviction has led voters and legislators in every State that has adopted same-sex marriage democratically to include accommodations for religious practice. The majority’s decision imposing same-sex marriage cannot, of course, create any such accommodations. The majority graciously suggests that religious believers may continue to “advocate” and “teach” their views of marriage. Ante, at 27. The First Amendment guarantees, however, the freedom to “exercise” religion. Ominously, that is not a word the majority uses.”

    Roberts noted that the question of tax-exempt status of religious institutions could become an issue.

    “Hard questions arise when people of faith exercise religion in ways that may be seen to conflict with the new right to same-sex marriage—when, for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex married couples. Indeed, the Solicitor General candidly acknowledged that the tax exemptions of some religious institutions would be in question if they opposed same-sex marriage. See Tr. of Oral Arg. on Question 1, at 36–38. There is little doubt that these and similar questions will soon be before this Court. Unfortunately, people of faith can take no comfort in the treatment they receive from the majority today.”

    Justice Clarence Thomas issued the following on religious liberty in his dissent:

    “Aside from undermining the political processes that protect our liberty, the majority’s decision threatens the religious liberty our Nation has long sought to protect. Numerous amici—even some not supporting the States—have cautioned the Court that its decision here will “have unavoidable and wide-ranging implications for religious liberty.” Brief for General Conference of Seventh-Day Adventists et al. as Amici Curiae 5. In our society, marriage is not simply a governmental institution; it is a religious institution as well. Id., at 7. Today’s decision might change the former, but it cannot change the latter. It appears all but inevitable that the two will come into conflict, particularly as individuals and churches are confronted with demands to participate in and endorse civil marriages between same-sex couples.”

    He also wrote the following on religious liberty.

    “Although our Constitution provides some protection against such governmental restrictions on religious practices, the People have long elected to afford broader protections than this Court’s constitutional precedents mandate. Had the majority allowed the definition of marriage to be left to the political process—as the Constitution requires—the People could have considered the religious liberty implications of deviating from the traditional definition as part of their deliberative process. Instead, the majority’s decision short-circuits that process, with potentially ruinous consequences for religious liberty.”




    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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