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Thread: Marriage Equality Thread

  1. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I see you as a city type (not suburbs). How many inner-city wards are there in San Fran?
    Four in the city that are English speaking (including one YSA ward). There is also a Tongan-speaking ward and (I think) a Fijian speaking ward. The boundaries of the wards are bizarre (they are not even in the same stake), so I don't have great info on the others - just anecdotes from friends.

  2. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I was also an LDS Californian at the time. The whole process absolutely devastated our ward. We probably lost half of the active families (not counting students) during the Prop 8 battle or immediately afterwards. We lost another good chunk of families in the following years due to the bitterness that remained. I can unequivocally state that Prop 8 was a bad idea for the church, regardless of your position on gay marriage.
    Interesting. I think Prop 8 really strengthened our ward and stake. I'm sure there were people who were upset by it, but the response was almost universally very positive and while everyone would say it was trying and difficult, I think it really brought us together.

  3. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Interesting. I think Prop 8 really strengthened our ward and stake. I'm sure there were people who were upset by it, but the response was almost universally very positive and while everyone would say it was trying and difficult, I think it really brought us together.
    We have close friends in the Carlsbad area, and it sounds like it was pretty gut-wrenching and divisive there.

  4. #754
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I think it varied from ward to ward. I have heard that some in the Bay Area had a difficult time -- the more urban the ward, the more difficulty there was. I didn't hear anything about big problems in SoCal, but I wouldn't necessarily have been told about such things. All my info is anecdotal.

    The family I home teach had both a Yes On 8 and a No On 8 lawn sign in front of their house. Our own neighborhood was sprinkled with both. Going in, I really don't think anyone had any idea how nasty that campaign would get.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #755
    I guess I should add that the wife's sibling is gay and has had a difficult struggle with his faith, so it might have been more gut wrenching for them than for the ward as a whole.

  6. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    That seems very strange to me. What city is your ward in? I live in Cottonwood Heights in Salt Lake County, and even there, in a largely Republican ward, most were at least reluctant to support Prop 8 and some refused to support it.
    Irvine. I know there were some who wouldn't actively support it, but I am unaware of anyone actively speaking out about it, and I am unaware of anyone in the stake going inactive or less active due to Prop 8.

  7. #757
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    That seems very strange to me. What city is your ward in? I live in Cottonwood Heights in Salt Lake County, and even there, in a largely Republican ward, most were at least reluctant to support Prop 8 and some refused to support it.
    In CA there was pretty much a call to action. My impression was that those who didn't want to participate just stayed silent for the most part. No one was assigned to do anything and none of the training meetings for volunteers were held on church property. (At least those were the instructions.) It was an interesting time. But by and large our ward and stake's experience was like Scratch's.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    In CA there was pretty much a call to action. My impression was that those who didn't want to participate just stayed silent for the most part. No one was assigned to do anything and none of the training meetings for volunteers were held on church property. (At least those were the instructions.) It was an interesting time. But by and large our ward and stake's experience was like Scratch's.
    I think mileage varied based on a host of factors - general political climate of the area (Orange County is MUCH more conservative than San Francisco; downtown L.A. is much more liberal than San Diego, etc), concentration of mormons (southern California has more mormons than Northern), and most importantly the local practices. Some wards talked about prop 8/gay marriage incessantly, some didn't. Some wards had subtle forms of shaming for people that didn't contribute time or money (I heard numerous testimonies/talks about "law of consecration" and gay marriage). It was definitely a feeling of us (mormons) against the world - it was a hard time to be a worldly mormon.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I think mileage varied based on a host of factors - general political climate of the area (Orange County is MUCH more conservative than San Francisco; downtown L.A. is much more liberal than San Diego, etc), concentration of mormons (southern California has more mormons than Northern), and most importantly the local practices. Some wards talked about prop 8/gay marriage incessantly, some didn't. Some wards had subtle forms of shaming for people that didn't contribute time or money (I heard numerous testimonies/talks about "law of consecration" and gay marriage). It was definitely a feeling of us (mormons) against the world - it was a hard time to be a worldly mormon.
    Yep. I heard reports like that too. Not a fun time, really.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I think mileage varied based on a host of factors - general political climate of the area (Orange County is MUCH more conservative than San Francisco; downtown L.A. is much more liberal than San Diego, etc), concentration of mormons (southern California has more mormons than Northern), and most importantly the local practices. Some wards talked about prop 8/gay marriage incessantly, some didn't. Some wards had subtle forms of shaming for people that didn't contribute time or money (I heard numerous testimonies/talks about "law of consecration" and gay marriage). It was definitely a feeling of us (mormons) against the world - it was a hard time to be a worldly mormon.
    My daughter lived in San Diego at the time and while I would not say it was the only factor in her leaving the church for a few years it was a divisive issue that fostered division and lack of trust amongst members in her ward and caused her to face hostile co workers at the hospital where she was employed.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    My daughter lived in San Diego at the time and while I would not say it was the only factor in her leaving the church for a few years it was a divisive issue that fostered division and lack of trust amongst members in her ward and caused her to face hostile co workers at the hospital where she was employed.
    Back in 2000 Prop 22 passed without much hubbub. That was the statute that the Cal Supreme Court overturned (by a 4-3 vote). Prop 8 elevated the statutory language to the State Constitution, without changing it. At the beginning of the election campaign an awful lot of people thought that Prop 8 would sail through like 22 did. I kept thinking, "No, it won't, it's the Constitution this time, and this is going to be ugly." It was many times worse than I imagined. I'm sorry your daughter got hurt by it all. There was a lot of effort put into training people not to beat up on others, get into fights, etc., but it was inevitable that such things would happen.

    FWIW, the Yes On 8 leadership had no idea if they would win. The night before the election, the internal polls showed a 48-48 tie.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #762
    OK, lawnerds, the 10th Circuit has heard arguments in Utah's gay marriage case. I haven't read the transcripts and Concerned didn't respond to my request for more info on the 10th Circuit judges, so I have to fill the void. Two things I found interesting:

    1. Apparently Utah's Attorney General sent a letter to the court the day before oral argument disavowing the research on kids raised by gay couples. They did so for two reasons; first, they said that it is irrelevant to their argument-even if children raised by gay couples have worse outcomes relative to children raised by biological parents, that is the wrong comparison because gay couples are not going to raise kids that would otherwise have been raised by biological parents. This is the point I have made against the "parenting outcome" arguments. Second, they cast doubt on the reliability of that research, a criticism that I have heard elsewhere.

    2. The judges for the case:

    lucero.jpg
    Carlos Lucero. A Clinton appointee, a native Coloradan, first hispanic on the 10th Circuit, graduate of GW Law School and Adams St. College (in Alamosa, CO). From what I've read, he seems like a pretty firm vote for striking down Utah's ban.

    kelly.jpg

    Paul Kelly. A George Bush the First appointee, a graduate of Fordham Law School and Notre Dame University, practiced law in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He is a solid conservative, and based on his choice of undergrad and law school it appears he is catholic (anyone know this?). He looks like a strong vote for upholding the Utah law.

    holmes.jpg

    Jerome Holmes. A G.W. Bush appointee, a D.C. native who practiced mostly in Oklahoma, first African American on the 10th Circuit, and a graduate of Georgetown Law School and Wake Forest. He is generally considered a conservative judge, but he is the hardest vote to predict. He's the swing vote here, I think.

    The 10th and the 5th Circuit are the first two circuits to hear the gay marriage appeals. They are also two of the more conservative circuits. It will be interesting to see how the cases play out - if the bans are struck down in the 10th and 5th, I think the Supreme Court might just let things work themselves out. If the 5th or the 10th upholds the bans, I think we'll see a Supreme Court case in the near future.
    Last edited by Applejack; 04-11-2014 at 08:10 AM.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    1. Apparently Utah's Attorney General sent a letter to the court the day before oral argument disavowing the research on kids raised by gay couples. They did so for two reasons; first, they said that it is irrelevant to their argument-even if children raised by gay couples have worse outcomes relative to children raised by biological parents, that is the wrong comparison because gay couples are not going to raise kids that would otherwise have been raised by biological parents. This is the point I have made against the "parenting outcome" arguments. Second, they cast doubt on the reliability of that research, a criticism that I have heard elsewhere.
    I've always been very skeptical of "studies" on either side of that issue because I think longitudinal studies are necessary before we really know anything concrete about this. That's going to take years.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    In CA there was pretty much a call to action. My impression was that those who didn't want to participate just stayed silent for the most part. No one was assigned to do anything and none of the training meetings for volunteers were held on church property. (At least those were the instructions.) It was an interesting time. But by and large our ward and stake's experience was like Scratch's.
    I know those instructions were not followed in San Diego and that there were multiple calls to action from the pulpit and assignments made by leaders.

  15. #765
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I know those instructions were not followed in San Diego and that there were multiple calls to action from the pulpit and assignments made by leaders.
    Sigh. Yeah, I heard about a lot of that. Looking back, I think that kind of excess was inevitable. When the Brethren sneeze, many members get pneumonia. (I.e., they go overboard.) I have mixed emotions about what happened.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-11-2014 at 02:39 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I know those instructions were not followed in San Diego and that there were multiple calls to action from the pulpit and assignments made by leaders.
    from my friends, I am sure that happened in Carlsbad too.

  17. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I've always been very skeptical of "studies" on either side of that issue because I think longitudinal studies are necessary before we really know anything concrete about this. That's going to take years.
    I actually think the first point is the more salient: even if the studies are valid, they are irrelevant because gay parents raising children has zero impact on straight families raising children. I am not surprised that Utah has admitted as much, but the timing is certainly interesting (the day before arguments).

  18. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I actually think the first point is the more salient: even if the studies are valid, they are irrelevant because gay parents raising children has zero impact on straight families raising children. I am not surprised that Utah has admitted as much, but the timing is certainly interesting (the day before arguments).
    Yep, as a Constitutional argument studies like that are pretty useless. (Somewhere William O. Douglas is protesting, however.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #769
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Freedom to Marry, Freedom to Dissent: Why We Must Have Both

    A "public statement" signed by about 50 "
    distinguished advocates of both gay marriage and freedom—including University of Minnesota Law School professor Dale Carpenter, American Enterprise Institute Senior Fellow Charles Murray, Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Jonathan Rauch, and star blogger Andrew Sullivan."

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...th_122376.html

    A very balanced analysis of the above statement:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...nt_122355.html
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-23-2014 at 10:11 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I was also an LDS Californian at the time. The whole process absolutely devastated our ward. We probably lost half of the active families (not counting students) during the Prop 8 battle or immediately afterwards. We lost another good chunk of families in the following years due to the bitterness that remained. I can unequivocally state that Prop 8 was a bad idea for the church, regardless of your position on gay marriage.
    Prop 8 was what did it for me. No offense to you older folk here but I always looked down on my Dad as being complicit with the institutionalization of racism as a result of being a missionary who preached to a bunch of Koreans that God cursed anyone with "black skin" (my father is a great man and I forgive him for that).

    I viewed prop 8 as being my moment to stand up against blatant bigotry against a class of people whose rights were abrogated unjustly by a collective of dogmatic religious fanatics. OK that last statement is hyperbole, but you get my drift.

    So I protested by having my name removed, specifically citing Prop 8. I hadn't been an active Mormon since BYU but I still thought it was more intellectually honest to leave.

    I do regret it. I'd rather fight within than be on the outside even though I don't even consider myself a christian and think most religions are absurd. But they are social entities and try as I may, I can't deny my continued affinity for the values of the church and people of my upbringing.

    I'd have to lie through my teeth to be Mormon again and I'm not willing to do that but I do hope the church figures thisbstuff out. The German guy gives me hope but that is quickly eroded by the Bednar guy.

    The culture of collective adherence and belief has always bothered me about Mormonism, even as a child. Judaism is 180 degrees from this in the sense that it is expected of a youth to question and challenge the Torah. Can you imagine the Mormon church encouraging teenagers to question the book of Mormon???!! No chance. Prop 8 was an exercise in the incorrect collective forcing its ideals on a beliving mass of adherents in yet another example of institutionalization of bigotry committed by the Mormon church. To me, that is evil.
    Last edited by Viking; 04-23-2014 at 05:16 PM.

  21. #771
    I do have to mention how deeply I respect those of you who believe. I disagree but I empathize with you. I believe devoutly in god but have found myself incapable of believing in a religion.

  22. #772
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac View Post
    I don't see any infringement upon freedom in the Brendan Eich resignation. I see actions and consequences. If the government had stepped in and forced him to resign, then I would feel freedom had been infringed upon. But employees and stockholders have a right to judge for themselves what they see as inappropriate or immoral behavior that may be bad for business and react accordingly.

    Many supporters of gay marriage see Prop 8 as an immoral cause. A legal action that invalidated marriages, and demeaned people. Essentially it could be argued that Prop 8 inflicted much of the same pain on gay parents as an adulterer does to a family. Invalidates the marriage, demeans and embarrasses a partner. For supporters of gay marriage, support for Prop 8 isn't just rationally wrong, it is morally wrong.

    I had an office manager who eventually left the company under pressure after he had committed adultery. He didn't violate any company rules or procedures. Pressure for him to leave was a natural consequence of his actions. I don't think there was an infringement upon freedom. He showed up to dinners with long-time clients with a wife 20 years younger than him and clients eventually heard how he cheated on his wife. A major client became suspect of his integrity and honesty and decided to take his business elsewhere, as many people would. His personal conduct clearly was hurting business so he was pressured to leave.

    I see the same thing in the Brendan Eisen situation. His conduct offended customers. There were enough customers offended to hurt business. If I were an employee working hard for that company, I'd want someone at the top who didn't hurt the business. Eisen had every right to support Prop 8. Customers reaction to his support did not infringe upon freedom, it was simply a consequence. You can't blame people for not wanting to give their hard earned money to a business run by a guy who supports causes they find immoral.

    It'd be interesting to research how many gay CEOs there are in the US. I suspect many qualified openly gay people have been overlooked for CEO positions out of fear of offending religious customers. It's not right, but I wouldn't say that freedom is at risk because some people are afraid of gay CEOs.
    You've made a very good statement of one side of the argument, which many people share. I think the two links I posted are excellent discussions of how the two sides can and should interact.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #773
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    Along the lines Eich a nurse at the University of Utah made a comment on a story about the Tongan Crip Gangster who was shot here in Federal Court this week. His comment was basically that all Tongans should be killed. It came to the attention of the hopsital who put him on leave. He apologized but was found to have made many other racial statements on social media. He resigned this afternoon. What you day on "your time" will come back to haunt you.


    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57...pital.html.csp

  24. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Along the lines Eich a nurse at the University of Utah made a comment on a story about the Tongan Crip Gangster who was shot here in Federal Court this week. His comment was basically that all Tongans should be killed. It came to the attention of the hopsital who put him on leave. He apologized but was found to have made many other racial statements on social media. He resigned this afternoon. What you day on "your time" will come back to haunt you.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57...pital.html.csp
    Correct, but you are not comparing that behavior with the Eich situation, are you?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Correct, but you are not comparing that behavior with the Eich situation, are you?
    Those are not at all comparable. Eich would still have his job if he was a nurse who happened to donate $1000 to Prop 8.

  26. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Those are not at all comparable. Eich would still have his job if he was a nurse who happened to donate $1000 to Prop 8.
    He also did not wish death on anyone.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    He also did not wish death on anyone.
    Truth be told he probably didn't even care all that much about the issue, and just wrote a $1000 check to the smiling fundraiser.

    And in doing so the company feared that he poisoned future sales, because most polls show that well over half of the people in the target demographic actually support marriage equality.
    Last edited by NorthwestUteFan; 04-23-2014 at 06:57 PM.

  28. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Correct, but you are not comparing that behavior with the Eich situation, are you?
    Not at all, merely a far more drastic example that your personal and professional lives are never separate, as some people have suggested they should be.


    (Many people have suggested this guys personal comments have nothing to do with his job, and have tried to falsely use freedom of speech to defend him)

  29. #779
    Freedom of speech helps us identify the stupid people. This does not mean stupid people should face no consquences -- only not from the government

    Just because you can, that doesn't mean you should.

    People would do well to learn about the H.A.L.T. principle. Never make a decision when you are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  30. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    All political issues are moral. I voted against legalization of pot for moral reasons. I would love to see tax reform or congress term limits for moral reasons. The important thing is to not pretend that those with different opinions are amoral.
    Impossible to do in Utah given the way the legislature treats issues such as alcohol etc don't you think?

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