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Thread: Damaging modesty memes

  1. #1

    Damaging modesty memes



    This meme has made the rounds on my Facebook wall for months, and reared its ugly head again today. The friend who posted it fails to see why I would have any objections to it. Urgh.

  2. #2
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Well, aside from being lame, it's generally stupid. ALL MEN look at immodestly dressed attractive people, pigs and gentlemen alike. Also, I'm unaware that rolling around in manure is part of a courting or mating ritual among the porcine species. Also, I'd venture that the unmarried boy who originally wrote this is deflecting guilt over his porn 'problem' onto the subject of his gaze.

  3. #3
    I think that there is a grain of truth to the message about attracting pigs, but I still have issues with the presentation. How comes it is addressed to "Girls" but it is coming from "Real Men". They also have a picture of a young girl on the message. So is this suppose to be directed to prepubescent girls from adult men?!

    I don't have problems with modesty lessons, as longs as it is directed to an age appropiate group and they discuss what modesty actually means (it is more than just clothing).

  4. #4
    I will just drop this right here. It seems an appropriate response.


  5. #5
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post


    This meme has made the rounds on my Facebook wall for months, and reared its ugly head again today. The friend who posted it fails to see why I would have any objections to it. Urgh.
    Is someone using that graphic in church? Good grief!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #6
    Here's a great response to this nonsense some valiant young man came up with at BYU-Idaho:

    original-image.jpg

    This is the kind of stuff that makes us ALUF's grateful we had the good sense to not go to a Church school.

  7. #7
    I just don't know why someone with legs that nice it talking to a guy with a Derp on his shirt. Surely she can do better.
    “The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
    Carl Sagan

  8. #8
    Can you guys at least post NSFW in this thread? My boss just walked by my office!

    Oh, I am just going to leave this here. I hope nothing happens to him in the parking lot because it is going to be hard to not argue he didn't bring it on himself.

    skinnyjeans.jpg

  9. #9
    Senior Member big z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Can you guys at least post NSFW in this thread? My boss just walked by my office!

    Oh, I am just going to leave this here. I hope nothing happens to him in the parking lot because it is going to be hard to not argue he didn't bring it on himself.

    skinnyjeans.jpg
    Aren't you the boss?
    “The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively”
    ~Bob Marley

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by big z View Post
    Aren't you the boss?
    I was pretty disappointed in my conduct, we are going to have to have a one on one about this unfortunately.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Is someone using that graphic in church? Good grief!
    No, I've never seen it at church but I've seen it passed around Facebook exclusively by LDS people, so the religion forum seems the most appropriate. It seems to me a symptom of the larger disease in our church that is the obsession with what Mormon women wear.

  12. #12
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    No, I've never seen it at church but I've seen it passed around Facebook exclusively by LDS people, so the religion forum seems the most appropriate. It seems to me a symptom of the larger disease in our church that is the obsession with what Mormon women wear.
    I think it's good to caution young women (teenagers and younger) to avoid dressing provocatively in order to get young men's attention, but I don't like over-the-top stuff like that graphic. Besides, kids tune us out when we go that route. Sweet reason works much better.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think it's good to caution young women (teenagers and younger) to avoid dressing provocatively in order to get young men's attention, but I don't like over-the-top stuff like that graphic. Besides, kids tune us out when we go that route. Sweet reason works much better.
    I agree (gasp!) that if young women are dressing provocatively to get the attention of the young men as an intentional matter it can be a problem at an extreme level. But I am personally offended as a man at the notion that somehow immodest dress turns me into a caveman. I've seen lots of women dressed immodestly and I've never raped any of them. I've never even cat called them.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think it's good to caution young women (teenagers and younger) to avoid dressing provocatively in order to get young men's attention, but I don't like over-the-top stuff like that graphic. Besides, kids tune us out when we go that route. Sweet reason works much better.
    For me, the only tack that ever made sense (or worked) was teaching me to respect my body and to avoid dressing like a hoochie to reflect respect for myself. Indirectly, it was church leaders who taught me that I have tremendous power in how I choose to dress.

    There's nothing redeeming about this meme, but the main problems are with presentation and the overall attitude of talking down to women. Like sully pointed out, the business about "real men" and "girls" squicks me out. It's amazing to me that people don't realize that it tacitly compares these "girls" to pigs, too, with all that stuff about rolling in the mud. It's degrading no matter how you slice it.

  15. #15
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    For me, the only tack that ever made sense (or worked) was teaching me to respect my body and to avoid dressing like a hoochie to reflect respect for myself. Indirectly, it was church leaders who taught me that I have tremendous power in how I choose to dress.

    There's nothing redeeming about this meme, but the main problems are with presentation and the overall attitude of talking down to women. Like sully pointed out, the business about "real men" and "girls" squicks me out. It's amazing to me that people don't realize that it tacitly compares these "girls" to pigs, too, with all that stuff about rolling in the mud. It's degrading no matter how you slice it.
    OK. Are you disagreeing with my post, or just adding your own thoughts?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    OK. Are you disagreeing with my post, or just adding your own thoughts?
    A little of both? I see problems with couching modesty solely in terms of the impact it will have upon young men. It teaches that young women are responsible for the thoughts (and perhaps indirectly or even directly?) the actions of young men. It can also teach them, "Gee, I can make the young men CRAZY with sex rage if I wear a short skirt. What a great idea."

    We both agree that the meme I posted is problematic. I'm not accusing you of being a neanderthal and I think you've been a parent for more years than I've been alive, so I feel it's wise to at least hear what you have to say.

  17. #17
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    A little of both? I see problems with couching modesty solely in terms of the impact it will have upon young men. It teaches that young women are responsible for the thoughts (and perhaps indirectly or even directly?) the actions of young men. It can also teach them, "Gee, I can make the young men CRAZY with sex rage if I wear a short skirt. What a great idea."

    We both agree that the meme I posted is problematic. I'm not accusing you of being a neanderthal and I think you've been a parent for more years than I've been alive, so I feel it's wise to at least hear what you have to say.
    The first thing I should say is that my friendly but (only slightly) snarky response was intended for Phieippeeedieees, not you. . He and I kind of banter that way, and I frequently decry his sadistic abuse of straw men.

    I agree with you that modesty should not be couched solely in those terms. I think it should be a comprehensive discussion and should be very elevated. I can say that after 8 years of going to YW class, girls' camp, youth conference and the like (I just can't seem to get out of this bishopric!), and watching my own daughter grow from age 8 to 16, the kids in our area live in a sex-drenched world. Most of them seem to appreciate a little guidance because they feel inner conflict between what they've been taught all their lives - what feels right to them - and what they see going on around them. (At high school proms around here you'd see lots of teenage girls whose parents ought to be horse-whipped for sending 15- and 16-year girls out dressed in amazingly revealing outfits.) Girls that age don't want to look like Church Lady - they want to look nice and attractive - they want to fit in - they want to be kids and have fun. It is not an easy thing to deal with, for either the kids or their parents.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 03-18-2013 at 04:59 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #18
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    For me, the only tack that ever made sense (or worked) was teaching me to respect my body and to avoid dressing like a hoochie to reflect respect for myself. Indirectly, it was church leaders who taught me that I have tremendous power in how I choose to dress.


    There's nothing redeeming about this meme, but the main problems are with presentation and the overall attitude of talking down to women. Like sully pointed out, the business about "real men" and "girls" squicks me out. It's amazing to me that people don't realize that it tacitly compares these "girls" to pigs, too, with all that stuff about rolling in the mud. It's degrading no matter how you slice it.

    I agree with this. As I said, I was attempting to tweak Pheidippides when I asked if you were just agreeing with me, because I think Pheidippides does.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I agree with this. As I said, I was attempting to tweak Pheidippides when I asked if you were just agreeing with me, because I think Pheidippides does.
    I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you quoted my post, not his.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  20. #20
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you quoted my post, not his.
    It was my fault. I quoted the wrong post! When I post from my iPad I often have spastic fingers, resulting in confusing posts.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It was my fault. I quoted the wrong post! When I post from my iPad I often have spastic fingers, resulting in confusing posts.
    Yes, I gathered that. It's fine. I'm not a terribly combative poster, so I was a little surprised initially.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I agree with this. As I said, I was attempting to tweak Pheidippides when I asked if you were just agreeing with me, because I think Pheidippides does.
    Whew! I was confused too for a moment. I mostly agree with you in general terms. Please don't ask me to evaluate specific outfits for modesty ratings, though, because I suspect we'll have a full blown fight on our hands. And I'm already busy trying to fend off torches and pitchforks on CB.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    I just don't know why someone with legs that nice it talking to a guy with a Derp on his shirt. Surely she can do better.
    Not if she's at BYU-I.

  24. #24
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    Please don't ask me to evaluate specific outfits for modesty ratings, though, because I suspect we'll have a full blown fight on our hands.
    I want to check back with you when you have a daughter who's 16 and going to her first major high school dance.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I want to check back with you when you have a daughter who's 16 and going to her first major high school dance.
    14, not 16 (personal family choice - both my wife and I have voted to ditch 16 and be more flexible depending on the kid). and start checking because I have two years to go.

    I will agree that a lot (most?) of what kids wear to proms these days is trashy. So you picked a bad example - I think our disagreements will be comparatively minor on that front.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I want to check back with you when you have a daughter who's 16 and going to her first major high school dance.
    I'm not going to argue that there are very scanty/tight/revealing dresses that show up at school dances, or claim that I'd be comfortable with a hypothetical daughter of mine wearing them. It wasn't all that long ago for me I was shopping for a prom dress and attending prom as one of the significantly more covered up attendees.

    There's also quite a range of "immodest" dresses by Mormon standards, which includes even chastely bare shoulders in a a dress that otherwise covers up. Like the esteemed Pheidippides, I get a little impatient with drawing imaginary lines on a woman's body.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  27. #27
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    I'm not going to argue that there are very scanty/tight/revealing dresses that show up at school dances, or claim that I'd be comfortable with a hypothetical daughter of mine wearing them. It wasn't all that long ago for me I was shopping for a prom dress. There's also quite a range of "immodest" dresses by Mormon standards, which includes even chastely bare shoulders in a a dress that otherwise covers up. Like the esteemed Pheidippides, I get a little impatient with drawing imaginary lines on a woman's body.
    In our case we haven't stuck strictly to those lines. Again, it is a tricky line to walk, IMO.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    In our case we haven't stuck strictly to those lines. Again, it is a tricky line to walk, IMO.
    I think it is, and one I saw my own parents struggle with while I was growing up. I remember coming upstairs ready for church wearing a dress my mom bought me for my uncle's wedding six months before. She told me to go downstairs and change. I'm still confused over that one, but apparently in retrospect she decided the dress was a no-go in some modesty aspect. (FTR, it had cap sleeves and brushed my kneecaps.)
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    I'm not going to argue that there are very scanty/tight/revealing dresses that show up at school dances, or claim that I'd be comfortable with a hypothetical daughter of mine wearing them. It wasn't all that long ago for me I was shopping for a prom dress and attending prom as one of the significantly more covered up attendees.

    There's also quite a range of "immodest" dresses by Mormon standards, which includes even chastely bare shoulders in a a dress that otherwise covers up. Like the esteemed Pheidippides, I get a little impatient with drawing imaginary lines on a woman's body.
    Drawing the imaginary lines is kinda creepy if you think about it.

    For me it's about general presentation. There are plenty of sleeveless dresses/halter tops (for example) that are appropriate in a professionalish setting like an after work cocktail party. Same with other types and styles of outfit in other situations. But just like its not appropriate or classy to wear track pants to the office, it's not appropriate to wear lingerie to a public event without something else. Unless you live in NYC and it's halloween, in which case the normal rules don't apply apparently.

    I view my role as helping my kids learn how to be classy and appropriate adults, and dress is just part of that. Believe it or not, my wife and I have already discussed prom dresses and spent some time looking at examples so we know what we think is okay and what is not. Almost none of the things we agreed upon are Authorized Pattern approved as we don't think that is the correct standard at all.

    Knowing my daughter as I do, I don't think this will be too terribly difficult. It's her younger sister that may bring challenges.

  30. #30
    I think those flowy skirts like the one she is wearing are soooo good lookin!

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