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Thread: Damaging modesty memes

  1. #31
    Careful. That sounds a bit rapey.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 03-18-2013 at 06:28 PM.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  2. #32
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    Careful. That sounds a bit rapey.
    Indeed, it does. Withdrawn.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Indeed, it does. Withdrawn.
    You're a good dude, wuap.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  4. #34
    You have to be careful easing up on these standards. It may seem fine until you have a generation of men who grew up with young women wearing sleeveless attire and have been driven into an addiction to hardcore shoulder porn.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Memes aren't supposed to be accurate. They're just supposed to be clever, funny, and/or snarky. Neither of the two memes posted on this thread offer much of value - they're just internet memes. They're the modern bumper sticker (like the bumper sticker Mrs F is using as a signature). Don't take them literally, and don't get too worked up over them.
    While I agree with you in theory, I've had countless friends post and repost this meme with commentary like, "So funny and so true!" or "Ladies, read this!" or "I couldn't say it better myself!" When I've commented that I dislike the condescending wording or the inaccurate ideas about modesty, people get surprisingly up in arms defending the accuracy of the meme. They seem to be taking it pretty seriously. Tacit acceptance of the underlying sexism and attitude towards women in this meme upsets much me than the meme itself, although I don't care for the meme either of course.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    While I agree with you in theory, I've had countless friends post and repost this meme with commentary like, "So funny and so true!" or "Ladies, read this!" or "I couldn't say it better myself!" When I've commented that I dislike the condescending wording or the inaccurate ideas about modesty, people get surprisingly up in arms defending the accuracy of the meme. They seem to be taking it pretty seriously. Tacit acceptance of the underlying sexism and attitude towards women in this meme upsets much me than the meme itself, although I don't care for the meme either of course.
    This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty.

  7. #37

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by scottie View Post
    I see bare shoulders on that page. Shun! Shun! Avoid the appearance of all evil!
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    I see bare shoulders on that page. Shun! Shun! Avoid the appearance of all evil!
    Request for a mixed-message emoticon/smiley... TIA!

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by scottie View Post
    Request for a mixed-message emoticon/smiley... TIA!
    Was the dripping sarcasm not apparent?
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    Was the dripping sarcasm not apparent?
    That was meant for the folks at mod-bod!

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by scottie View Post
    That was meant for the folks at mod-bod!
    Aha! Yes.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Hey, just remember that they aren't agreeing with the literal meme. They are simply laughing at it and agreeing with the underlying message - that how we dress affects how we are perceived. The internet was never meant for intelligence or seriousness. It's meant only for jokes, sports, and stubborn arguments.
    It's more pernicious than just how we as humans dress affects how we are perceived, but it seems you're just trolling me at this point.
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Ok, sorry. Didn't mean to offend. Over and out.
    Perhaps I misunderstood. Feminists can have a sense of humor, too!
    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Funk View Post
    Perhaps I misunderstood. Feminists can have a sense of humor, too!
    I find it interesting that women in the most liberal countries in the world (Western Europe and the US and Canada) are the least "modest". In other words, when women are more allowed to make their own decisions about dress and style, they tend to wear less "cover up". Yet, when men dominate the decision making (fundamental Islam and yes, even Mormonism) the standard is more cover up.

  16. #46
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Modesty is little more than a construction of our social reality (hence exposing one's ankles 100 years ago was almost slutty). We 'know' that exposure of certain parts of the body are immodest. The consequences of this knowledge are that men dislike the feelings that thoughts about someone else's body cause in us, especially if we 'know' that such thoughts are immoral. If we don't possess that same heteronomous knowledge, then we merely enjoy the goods on display (unless there's a non-religious knowledge informing our dislike of immodesty), in some cases bordering on voyeurism. When we've decided that we know that immodesty is an artificial construct, and we want to look without restraints, we go to strip clubs where the social reality that forbids staring and voyeurism is altered by the exchange of capital in return for giving away your right to feel outrage at someone oogling the form of your body. Immodesty ultimately always revolves around the male id (Freudian term, not i.d.).

    I had a student from Finland once. She was a great person, creative, artistic, intelligent, athletic, kind, and good with kids. We hired her to take our Christmas card photos. She was also absolutely stunning. I spent a great deal of mental energy trying to ignore her beauty whenever I dealt with her socially. She invited me to her senior art show; I was excited to see her creativity on display. I walked in to find the centerpiece of her exhibition a lifesize photographic portrait of her naked sitting cross-legged, shaven, and staring straight into the camera. I had a visceral physical reaction to that image (THANK GOD SHE WASN'T THERE WHEN I WENT). It wasn't arousal, on the contrary, I felt ashamed and angry. I had honestly agonized over never viewing her that way, not allowing myself to envision her that way, trying to respect her enough to not delve into adolescent fantasy, and she destroyed that in one moment. I didn't want to consider her that way. I didn't want that image in my head, and now, I have no choice. Something like that doesn't easily delete itself from the memory, for she is exquisite. But, I'd give anything to erase that from my memory. So, while modesty is a social construct of the collective male id, trying to get women not to tempt us, we are powerless, ultimately before the reality that our society has decided to deconstruct in order to embrace humanist principles of equality, something I support.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  17. #47
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Good post, wuap.

    This is an interesting (albeit Judeo-centric) take on the external nature of what we call sexual morality:

    It is probably impossible for us, who live thousands of years after Judaism began this process, to perceive the extent to which undisciplined sex can dominate man's life and the life of society. Throughout the ancient world, and up to the recent past in many parts of the world, sexuality infused virtually all of society.

    Human sexuality, especially male sexuality, is polymorphous, or utterly wild (far more so than animal sexuality). Men have had sex with women and with men; with little girls and young boys; with a single partner and in large groups; with total strangers and immediate family members; and with a variety of domesticated animals. They have achieved orgasm with inanimate objects such as leather, shoes, and other pieces of clothing, through urinating and defecating on each other (interested readers can see a photograph of the former at select art museums exhibiting the works of the photographer Robert Mapplethorpe); by dressing in women's garments; by watching other human beings being tortured; by fondling children of either sex; by listening to a woman's disembodied voice (e.g., "phone sex"); and, of course, by looking at pictures of bodies or parts of bodies. There is little, animate or inanimate, that has not excited some men to orgasm. Of course, not all of these practices have been condoned by societies — parent-child incest and seducing another's man's wife have rarely been countenanced — but many have, and all illustrate what the unchanneled, or in Freudian terms, the "un-sublimated," sex drive can lead to.

    De-sexualizing God and religion


    Among the consequences of the unchanneled sex drive is the sexualization of everything — including religion. Unless the sex drive is appropriately harnessed (not squelched — which leads to its own destructive consequences), higher religion could not have developed. Thus, the first thing Judaism did was to de-sexualize God: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" by his will, not through any sexual behavior. This was an utterly radical break with all other religions, and it alone changed human history. The gods of virtually all civilizations engaged in sexual relations. In the Near East, the Babylonian god Ishtar seduced a man, Gilgamesh, the Babylonian hero. In Egyptian religion, the god Osiris had sexual relations with his sister, the goddess Isis, and she conceived the god Horus. In Canaan, El, the chief god, had sex with Asherah. In Hindu belief, the god Krishna was sexually active, having had many wives and pursuing Radha; the god Samba, son of Krishna, seduced mortal women and men. In Greek beliefs, Zeus married Hera, chased women, abducted the beautiful young male, Ganymede, and masturbated at other times; Poseidon married Amphitrite, pursued Demeter, and raped Tantalus. In Rome, the gods sexually pursued both men and women.

    Given the sexual activity of the gods, it is not surprising that the religions themselves were replete with all forms of sexual activity. In the ancient Near Fast and elsewhere, virgins were deflowered by priests prior to engaging in relations with their husbands, and sacred or ritual prostitution was almost universal. Psychiatrist and sexual historian Norman Sussman describes the situation thus: "Male and female prostitutes, serving temporarily or permanently and performing heterosexual, homosexual oral-genital, bestial, and other forms of sexual activities, dispense their favors in behalf of the temple." Throughout the ancient Near East, from very early times, anal intercourse formed a part of goddess worship. In ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan, annual ceremonial intercourse took place between the king and a priestess. Women prostitutes had intercourse with male worshippers in the sanctuaries and temples of ancient Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, Cyprus, Corinth, Carthage, Sicily, Egypt, Libya, West Africa, and ancient and modern India. In ancient Israel itself, there were repeated attempts to re-introduce temple prostitution, resulting in repeated Jewish wars against cultic sex. The Bible records that the Judean king Asa "put away the qdeshim [temple male prostitutes] out of the land"; that his successor, Jehosaphat put away out of the land ...the remnant of the qdeshim that remained in the days of his father Asa"; and that later, King Josiah, in his religious reforms, "broke down the houses of the qdeshim." In India until this century, certain Hindu cults have required intercourse between monks and nuns, and wives would have intercourse with priests who represent the god. Until it was made illegal in 1948, when India gained independence, Hindu temples in many parts of India had both women and boy prostitutes. In the fourteenth century, the Chinese found homosexual Tibetan religious rites practiced at the court of a Mongol emperor. In Sri Lanka through this century, Buddhist worship of the goddess Pattini has involved priests dressed as women, and the consort of the goddess is symbolically castrated.

    Judaism placed controls on sexual activity. It could no longer dominate religion and social life. It was to be sanctified — which in Hebrew means "separated" — from the world and placed in the home, in the bed of husband and wife. Judaism's restricting of sexual behavior was one of the essential elements that enabled society to progress. Along with ethical monotheism, the revolution begun by the Torah when it declared war on the sexual practices of the world wrought the most far-reaching changes in history.
    Interesting stuff.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 03-19-2013 at 01:24 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #48
    To LA Ute (don't want to paste that huge article). Interesting article. However, it seems fundamental Islam has taken Judaism to the next step. So is fundamental Islam an essential element that will enable society to progress even faster?

    Roman and Greek societies were very open about sex. Yet, they were two of the most advanced human civilizations.

    What you appear to be saying is just what I learned on my mission. Make strict rules for the masses to the detriment of those more advanced because the masses are simply incapable of exercising good judgment and self restraint.

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    I find it interesting that women in the most liberal countries in the world (Western Europe and the US and Canada) are the least "modest". In other words, when women are more allowed to make their own decisions about dress and style, they tend to wear less "cover up". Yet, when men dominate the decision making (fundamental Islam and yes, even Mormonism) the standard is more cover up.
    Or in other words, those who are more religious tend to be more "modest" in their clothing standards.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    Or in other words, those who are more religious tend to be more "modest" in their clothing standards.
    Or in other words, those who are more dominated by men tend to be more "modest" in their clothing standards.

  21. #51
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    To LA Ute (don't want to paste that huge article). Interesting article. However, it seems fundamental Islam has taken Judaism to the next step. So is fundamental Islam an essential element that will enable society to progress even faster?

    Roman and Greek societies were very open about sex. Yet, they were two of the most advanced human civilizations.

    What you appear to be saying is just what I learned on my mission. Make strict rules for the masses to the detriment of those more advanced because the masses are simply incapable of exercising good judgment and self restraint.
    I'm not sure I buy everything in that quote from Dennis Prager. (I am not well-schooled enough in ancient history to know if he's right.) I thought his comments were responsive to wuap's point about sexual morality being a construct that varies from society to society. As a believer in the Judeo-Christian tradition I was also impressed by the idea that Judeo-Christian teachings about sex were revolutionary. As for Islam, I think the extreme elements of that faith have perverted the Judeo-Christian view of sex into something truly oppressive. Any religion can do that, of course, and IMO some Judeo-Christian faiths also have.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #52
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I'm not sure I buy everything in that quote from Dennis Prager. (I am not well-schooled enough in ancient history to know if he's right.) I thought his comments were responsive to wuap's point about sexual morality being a construct that varies from society to society. As a believer in the Judeo-Christian tradition I was also impressed by the idea that Judeo-Christian teachings about sex were revolutionary. As for Islam, I think the extreme elements of that faith have perverted the Judeo-Christian view of sex into something truly oppressive. Any religion can do that, of course, and IMO some Judeo-Christian faiths also have.
    Islam is just lagging behind Christian mores by about 400 years. We're seeing how our ancestors behaved about the time that Jamestown was founded.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  23. #53
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Islam is just lagging behind Christian mores by about 400 years. We're seeing how our ancestors behaved about the time that Jamestown was founded.
    Fair enough, but did the Jamestown settlers perform honor killings and female circumcision?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #54
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Honor killings, no, they just marched into the Pawhotan's lands, took them, and eventually exterminated them. Female genital mutilation is barbarous, but predates Islam.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Honor killings, no, they just marched into the Pawhotan's lands, took them, and eventually exterminated them. Female genital mutilation is barbarous, but predates Islam.
    The Christian world was still torturing heretics at the time Jamestown was settled and we all know the awful things that we done to people later in Massachusetts. I can't remember who pointed it out (one of the four horsemen I think) but if, in fact, heresy was something that could cause a person to be tortured endlessly in hell, then killing and torturing people who might potentially spread that awful fate to others is not an illogical response.
    “The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
    Carl Sagan

  26. #56
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Whoa! I'm not going to defend Christian excesses either. Just quibbling with wuap's equation of modern extreme Islam with 17th century Western Christianity. I think we can all agree that Islam needs to be reformed, and that Christianity was often used as an excuse for evil behavior.

    My original point was that the Prager excerpt is intriguing in its claim that a monogamous (generally) and marital approach to sexual behavior was revolutionary and was largely a relatively recent and Judeo-Christian idea. Lest I end up also defending that branch of religion, I'm just agreeing with wuap that humanity's view of sexual morality - rules of behavior - is based on external standards and does evolve.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 03-19-2013 at 02:57 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #57
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Whoa! I'm not going to defend Christian excesses either. Just quibbling with wuap's equation of modern extreme Islam with 17th century Western Christianity. I think we can all agree that Islam needs to be reformed, and that Christianity was often used as an excuse for evil behavior.

    My original point was that the Prager excerpt is intriguing in its claim that a monogamous (generally) and marital approach to sexual behavior was revolutionary largely a relatively recent and largely Judeo-Christian idea. Lest I end up also defending that branch of religion, I'm just agreeing with wuap that humanity's view of sexual morality - rules of behavior - is based on external standards and does evolve.
    You see genital mutilation as Islamic. It goes back far beyond Islam. Islam only served to reinforce the practice among the uneducated and chauvinistic societies of Africa.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  28. #58
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    You see genital mutilation as Islamic. It goes back far beyond Islam. Islam only served to reinforce the practice among the uneducated and chauvinistic societies of Africa.
    It's not Islamic any more than beheadings or torture are Christian.

    Now, back to damaging sexual memes....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #59
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's not Islamic any more than beheadings or torture are Christian.

    Now, back to damaging sexual memes....
    Oh, we've not even sighted an iceberg yet if we're talking about damaging sexual memes. This is just a quick sample.



    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  30. #60
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Here's one I just grabbed off facebook from a male Church member.

    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

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