Bingham High School in today's Trib:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58...tml.csp?page=1
Bingham High School in today's Trib:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58...tml.csp?page=1
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
I don't have a huge problem with this story in principle (although I will avoid deciding at just what point a dress becomes "backless," etc.). The majority of high school students are legally children. The high school was up front about what the dress code would be. Lots of places & situations have dress codes.Originally Posted by mUUser
It might be a good lesson for kids to learn about appropriate vs. inappropriate - something the facebook era has eroded.
I thought the photoshopping story was much more egregious.
σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
-- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.
My one thought has little to do with whether it's right or wrong. But I find it somewhat weird the school refused comment and instead had a 17 year old student body officer available to the media
I agree completely with this. As a student attending a dance, it is your responsibility to find out what the dress code will be and to abide by it.
In what other walk of life would behavior like this be acceptable? Does anyone walk into a store, grab a soda that is priced at $1.50, pull out a couple of quarters and demand that the store accept it and then throw a fit when they don't? Good grief!
Not really here to state on position or another, but at work there was a modesty debate, and as it always does it came up about how there are modesty standards for women but not for men.
The debate was raging when a normally quiet programmer piped up and said, "When the style for men is to have the bottom of their junk hang below their shorts I'm sure they'll be people shouting about that too."
That pretty much ended the debate... For the moment.
Here's my modesty point, in the form of two questions: Obviously, we would all agree that in our society showing up naked in public is unacceptable and inappropriate. (Please spare me the lame jokes.) So:
- How much skin needs to be covered?
- How do we decide?
These aren't stupid questions.
Last edited by LA Ute; 09-25-2014 at 07:24 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I think you are missing a negative article in your premise.
I think I fixed it.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Dress slacks sighting at church 3 weeks in a row from the same active, long-time member.
As I walked up to my wife after church, one of the RS sisters walks up at same time and appeared to be on a crusade to "understand" why the pants-wearing sister was trying to make a "statement" (a statement about what, I'm not certain) at church.
Before anything came out of my wife's mouth (who I'm sure would've said something rude) I reminded her that for a church obsessed with female modesty, she appears to be the most modestly dressed of all the women at church today.
End of conversation. Let's get out of here!!
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
I love how this sort of stuff totally distracts from the message. Ironically we had a few women routinely wear dress slacks to church who have now quit. While basic speculation on my part, knowing them well I'd be surprised if they quit because of fear of criticism or reprisal, but probably because dress slacks on women at church now means something.
I guess we all have our own frame of reference. I don't think anyone in our ward would notice if a woman wore pants or a man wore a purple shirt. But that's a function of local culture. I think most members of our ward see church on Sunday as a weekly refuge that they look forward to, so t hey're just glad to be there and to be with others who are like-minded. I'm not sure church attendance is seen the same way in some locations with high concentrations of members (e.g., where the neighborhood and your ward are practically the same thing). Then again, muuser doesn't live in Utah, so it can't be just that. I don't blame muuser for noticing, because in his ward pants on woman are probably a very rare thing.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It can be. The byu-indoctrinated masses maintain their 'uniform of the Priesthood' mindset and keep it throughout their lives as a foundational proof that they live a higher law than the mindless, immoral hoi polloi around them. It is a symbol of their superiority over their fellow men and (especially) women.
I remember when I was first married we had a good friend who was a recent convert. She is absolutely gorgeous and she worked as a clothing buyer for Nordstrom. One day she wore a very nice pair of tailored trousers to church. My wife overheard a few sisters in the ward talking about how 'cheap' she looked wearing trousers. The irony was that our friend's very nice professional outfit was significantly more expensive than the Dress Barn muu muus worn by the holier-than-thou types.
My point was this movement has caused people who would otherwise wear slacks on occasion to not wear them because it means something now. I could be wrong but up to that point, nobody cared a lick in my ward in Utah whether someone showed up in slacks or not. Probably still don't.
It reminds me of something we did in high school. We got a new principal and administrative staff my senior year. My high school previously had zero problems with gangs, dress codes or anything else, but the new administration was terrified of gang problems at our school, and started banning trends they thought were gang related. (A group of about 20 friends had gone to Disneyland together the previous summer and had all bought the same baseball cap with Mickey Mouse on it and wore them regularly. The admin thought they were a gang and so outlawed the hats). We all thought that was ridiculous, so a bunch of us decided that we would start to wear Webelos neckerchiefs to school as a joke. We got what we expected, a week later Boy Scout gear was banned.
The point being, by saying that wearing slacks to church, or men wearing colored shirts represented some sort of protest has restricted what people who don't support the movement in what they will actually wear. But what a ridiculous thing anyway, it was a childish protest when it happened and childish now. I hope people come in whatever they've got and don't think twice about it.
I'm a people watcher. I love it. At church, the airport, football stadium, the park, wherever. I notice people. I watch how they act, what they wear, what they say, how they say it, etc.... I guess it comes from my sociology classes. Having said that, I don't interact because I like my privacy, but I do notice, and notice others reaction to others, but I'm totally oblivious to ward drama....who has walked out on who etc....
This particular sister sits directly in front of me in primary, so I can't help but notice. I'm interested in it. Intrigued by reactions to it. And it makes it especially interesting because her and her husband are ward and stake leaders in every sense of the word. It's simply unexpected.
In the end, I will take any side show I can get at church to help through an otherwise fairly mundane 3 hour block, 2 hours of which is largely babysitting.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Women wearing pants to church is only a 'thing' because it was already seen as edgy or out of line. If this was normal (other than in wards full of Democrats) then it wouldn't even get a second notice.
I've always seen bow tie wearers as agitators and I drive slower past their houses to see if anything is out of line. Our first counselor regularly wears a bow tie (yes, I have noticed and gossiped about it). I've noticed that since then other men have began wearing bow ties, and even some of the young men.
I suspect we have some bow tie wearers in our midst here on UB5.
Rainbow suspenders, on the other hand, are a pretty cool way to keep up your pants.
Oh, and your post is spot on.
I think part of the reason for women to wear pants is to hopefully identify like minded people or people who are at least going to be safe. My wife has worn a sleeveless dress for a similar reason.
Of course the church is such a horrible place for anyone with feminist ideals that we are on an extended hiatus right now anyway.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
I have to wonder if this is largely a Utah thing. The gap isn't significant in our area...or so I'm told (and have observed) by those who have feminist ideals in my ward and stake.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
This is too bad. I think it is a lot harder to effect change from the outside than the inside. I've been vocal often about changes that can be done within the church organization that I think would help greatly regarding gender equality while also not compromising beliefs that people hold dear. (No threat of excommunication that I'm aware of.) One outcome of this is I was asked to speak about how 'virtue' is not just a value for women to the youth (both ym and YW) in our ward. It's small stuff but that is where change begins.
Young people need to see that there are many ways to live the gospel and that there is a place for them, and if there isn't one it needs to be created and they can be part of that.
My mission president used to say that we shouldn't just do member missionary work because it would make for a homogenous church.
On that note I was in Killeen Texas, a town as a whole that still rife with racism. There were two wards that reflected that. One ward was completely white the other was primarily black and other minorities. An old black lady was going to the 'white' ward and got up one Sunday and said, "I just realized I'm the only black person here!' We talked to her after and mentioned that a lot of black people went to the other ward. She said she was going to get black people to come there and she did, it was great and much needed. Few people actually cared, they were obnoxious but the others were grateful she was courageous and stubborn.
Good people who withdraw because of reasons like you state (which are legitimate) unfortunately lead to this further homogenization and group think. If you believe in core of the doctrine but struggle with the culture, I personally think you should come back and make a difference.
I also think it is none of my business, so file what I say as some broad generalizations around a situation I don't fully understand.
I own a couple but haven't worn them for 20+ years. I hope you will still like me.
My formal outfit includes a real bow tie also. None of that clip on stuff for me.
As a public service I'll post this for those who may decide to take the plunge someday:
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
BTW, I am on record as hating white shirts, and I think the whole idea that it is a priesthood uniform is ridiculous. So far no church leader has called me on the carpet for this. Then again, I have knuckled under and worn a white shirt to church for all the years I've been in the bishopric.
One of my law partners was bishop of the YSA ward at UCLA and never wore a white shirt the entire time her served. I kind of admire his pluck but shirt color is not on my list of things worth taking a stand on. I just whine about it to my friends.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I'm with you. I've never liked white shirts, rarely wear them. We can still be friends despite the bow ties, but I will still eye you suspiciously.
That is one advantage of white shirts. I always wear them to court and to important business meetings. Your estimate of 1% may be right. I still dislike feeling like I have to wear them. But I suffer quietly and with great dignity, if I do say so myself.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I appreciate this post and I get this point. It is the whole be the change that you want to see in the church. It was a great idea, until the church starting ex-communicating people because of views that are part of the change that my wife and I would like to see in the church.
It is not a healthy place right now for our family.
So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
--fjm.com
I like a white shirt, but it's a little cultish how much we have gravitated to it in the LDS community
We sometimes look like a bunch of hard-core Southern Baptists or semi-Mennonites.
Then again, we haven't needed guidance like this:
Dresscode2-480x330.jpg
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
We recently had our whole stake reorganized due to recent development and lost about half of our ward in the process. As a result, I was released from EQ presidency. When the bishop called me in to extend my new calling at Teacher's Quorum advisor, we went through all of the job details and commitments. After 10 minutes of discussion and my "I'll have to talk to my wife, but I don't see it being a problem," the bishop started to get visibly nervous before saying , "there's one more thing we need to discuss. I'm not really sure how to dance around this, so I'll just come out and say it. The brethren have asked that those who work with the youth, provide the best examples as these young men prepare to enter the temple and serve missions." At this point I'm thinking that some of my unconventional EQ lessons has made its way back to him. "Part of being a good example is making sure that we're wearing a white shirt to church. Do you have any white shirts?" "Yes sir. Sure do." "Brother Schr-Ute, will you magnify this new calling and wear a white shirt every Sunday?" Sure. Whatever. But if I start hearing gruff about my constantly scruffy face, there will be push back.
Last edited by Dwight Schr-Ute; 01-20-2015 at 12:20 AM.
One of the boys in the stake was doing an Eagle Scout project collecting dress shirts for less fortunate members and converts. In caps and bolded letting at the bottom of the collection box was the reminder, "THESE SHIRTS WILL BE USED FOR ATTENDING CHURCH SO PLEASE INSURE THAT ONLY WHITE SHIRTS OR BEING DONATED."
Wow. Way to limit your ability to give to the less fortunate based off of some silly Law of Moses cultural ridiculousness.
To be clear., I think it's nice that the boys who bless and pass the sacrament wear white shirts, but our bishop thinks it is more important that they get to do that than it is that they wear the right shirt. So when one of them forgets (which is rare) he doesn't make a big deal out of it. He has corrected well-meaning YM leaders who've tried to stop boys from blessing or passing because they lack a white shirt.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
When I was on my mission (here in the states), we had a promising young investigator. I dont think she had been to any type of church before and I know she was very nervous her first sunday. She was from a rough area and I dont think she had much as far as clothes go. Ill never forget when she walked in wearing a fairly revealing dress. There was some shock on some faces as she tried to find a seat. My companion ran up, threw his suit coat over here in front of everyone (she had ended up on the first row). She left after Sacrament meeting and we never saw her again.
That is one that I desperately, desperately wish I could have back because I would have handled it so much better.
As a sidenote, a couple of weeks later, we had another investigator show up falling-down drunk to our 9 AM Sacrament meeting. When the deacons brought the bread, he grabbed a handful and yelled out "GRACIAS!!!!" (this was an english-speaking ward). Ditto the water, despite our efforts. When the first speaker got up and started out by saying that she had been introduced to the church as a fan of Donnie and Marie, this dude lost it, yelling "IM SICK OF THIS!!! DONNIE AND MARIE!!!! I THOUGHT I WAS COMING TO CHURCH!!!!! NOT A FREAKING CONCERT!!!!" We just escorted him out and some sympathetic member came and drove him the 7 miles back to his house. I dont think that ward had much confidence in us after that, lol.
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