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Thread: Damaging modesty memes

  1. #151

    Damaging modesty memes

    Dr. Hanks writes a follow-up to respond to several of the comments from the original piece. More good stuff. I seriously don't know how you can read these and still be "yeah, but..."

    We teach that modesty is important because it invites people to pay attention to our personalities rather than our appearance. But if we’ve gotten to the point where we scrutinize women’s outfits to make sure that the sleeve reaches all the way to the edge of the shoulder and that the skirt reaches all the way to the knee, or if we make snap judgments about a woman’s character based on whether or not her outfit exactly meets the standards in For the Strength of Youth, then we’ve come back around to judging people based on their appearance, and the point of the principle has been lost.
    http://ldsmag.com/misunderstanding-m...s-to-comments/

  2. #152
    You can't send a YW or YM through the program without friction at some point. You have more liberal members rubbing the conservative crowd the wrong way -- and vice versa. Guys like me say "Let it Ride" while being quoted chapter and verse from the various books, pamphlets and manuals. Contention will happen. No way around it.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  3. #153
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Dr. Hanks writes a follow-up to respond to several of the comments from the original piece. More good stuff. I seriously don't know how you can read these and still be "yeah, but..."

    http://ldsmag.com/misunderstanding-m...s-to-comments/
    When we are talking about making people uncomfortable about being with us there really is no "yeah, but." (Yes, I am sure someone can come up with a hypothetical that would disprove the rule, but not one that is reasonably likely to come up.) All of us have a little tiny Pharisee somewhere inside of us, struggling to get out. We need to keep that little twerp bound and gagged.

    I really liked this bit of a speech recently given at the FAIR conference, Christ’s Emancipation of Women in the New Testament:

    Jesus did not live by these segregating restrictions for women. He refused to isolate women and treated them as valued individuals. He allowed women and children to join the group of five thousand and later four thousand men who gathered to hear Him teach in Galilee (Matthew 14:21; 15:38).[18] He refuted those who wanted to send the women and children away (Mark 10:13-14; Matthew 15:23). He welcomed women to stay in the same room as men (Luke 7:38-40). He did not segregate the unclean, whether they were sick or sinful or social outcasts.

    This is beautifully illustrated in all three synoptic Gospels on a crowded street in Galilee (Matthew 9:19-22; Mark 5:24-34; Luke 8:43-48). The story begins with a throng of people accompanying Jesus across town to the home of Jairus, a ruler of the synagogue, to heal Jairus’ daughter. En route, an “unclean” woman tries to touch Jesus to receive His healing virtue. This woman was labeled “unclean” because, for over a decade, she had an “issue of a blood,” possibly a hemorrhaging uterus.[19]

    Socially this meant, for the past twelve years, the Mosaic law forbade her from going out in public, touching anyone, worshipping in the synagogue or temple, or sharing her husband’s bed (Leviticus 15:19-28). As a result of her condition, her husband had probably divorced her (Deuteronomy 24:1).[20] Since physical disabilities were seen as the consequence of sin, and a woman’s menses made her “unclean” (Ezekiel 36:17-18), we assume that at least some of her neighbors and family had probably accused her of wickedness and rejected her.[21] The Gospel of Mark also included that she was destitute after spending all her money on medical help (Mark 5:26).


    Yet this faith-filled and determined woman sought healing from the Lord: “If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole” (Matthew 9:21; Mark 5:28). To do so, she broke the segregation protocol that had banished her to a life of seclusion—she went outside into a crowded street and tried to hide herself in the pack following Jesus. When she touched His outer garment, or the hem of His tunic, Jesus immediately felt that “virtue has gone out of me,” or more literally, “power has gone forth from me” (Luke 8:46 KJV and RSV). Jesus gave part of Himself in order to heal the woman physically. This in turn led to her healing socially and emotionally as well. It took amazing bravery for the woman to answer Jesus’ direct question, “Who touched me?” (Mark 5:31).


    In that throng of townspeople hurrying through the village to Jairus’ home, she showed her faith, courage, and humility; “When the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately” (Luke 8:47). Jesus offered no reproach for her breaching social propriety—instead he praised the depth of her faith: “Your faith has brought you salvation” (Luke 8:47, ABT). And then Jesus offered a departing blessing, “Go in peace” (Luke 8:48).[22] In this poignant story, Jesus defied the cultural norms that marginalized women. By acknowledging, touching and healing this woman, He set a new standard for the way women should be treated.


    I don't think the Savior would ostracize someone for dressing outside For the Strength of Youth guidelines.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #154
    We had a combined YM/YW pool party activity last night. The only thing immodest was the guy's pool we held it at. It's a good thing he's a Ute.


  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    We had a combined YM/YW pool party activity last night. The only thing immodest was the guy's pool we held it at. It's a good thing he's a Ute.

    Nightmare maintenance and care.

  6. #156
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think mp lives in Utah County, where the worst excesses in Mormondom occur. I guess we have company with some Baptists, who think showing a clavicle is immodest. I haven't seen that one in Mormon circles yet.

    I like the idea of teaching men -- starting when they're young -- that their response to the way women dress is up to them. They (we) are going to be dealing with that challenge all our lives, so why not just confront that need?

    That said, modesty belongs in the conversation somewhere. No one (well, almost no one) would deny that people should not walk around naked. So where do we draw the line? How much coverage is enough?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't live in Utah County. The incident in question occurred in Murray, Utah. It was in Portland, Oregon that a singles ward bishop felt it appropriate to comment on the size of my future wife's breasts when he told her that she was wearing shirts that were too low cut.

    As for the walking pornography comment, that wasn't a local leader, that was Dallin H. Oaks.
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    We had a combined YM/YW pool party activity last night. The only thing immodest was the guy's pool we held it at. It's a good thing he's a Ute.
    Plastic surgeon or personal injury attorney?

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    Plastic surgeon or personal injury attorney?
    Owns a painting company. :dunno:

  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Owns a painting company. :dunno:
    I thought you were going to come back with... welder.

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I don't live in Utah County. The incident in question occurred in Murray, Utah. It was in Portland, Oregon that a singles ward bishop felt it appropriate to comment on the size of my future wife's breasts when he told her that she was wearing shirts that were too low cut.

    As for the walking pornography comment, that wasn't a local leader, that was Dallin H. Oaks.
    Where at in Murray? I need to know who I know among your old ward/stake leaders so I can mock them appropriately.

  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    I thought you were going to come back with... welder.
    Those guys never invite me over.

  12. #162
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Nothing new here but I imagine most of us agree with what the writer is saying. I do.

    http://www.ldssmile.com/2015/05/27/h...izabeth-smart/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #163
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Man, I have not heard anything about "chewed gum" or similar analogies since one occasion in high school. If people are still saying that hurtful nonsense they need to stop. Now.

    http://www.sltrib.com/home/4304322-1...lture-feminism

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #164
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Man, I have not heard anything about "chewed gum" or similar analogies since one occasion in high school. If people are still saying that hurtful nonsense they need to stop. Now.

    http://www.sltrib.com/home/4304322-1...lture-feminism
    i find it hard to believe that a seminary or church teacher would use that analogy WITH SMART IN THE ROOM.

    Those analogies are always a bad idea but, gee whiz, have a little sensitivity towards the most well-known rape victim since Helen of Troy.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  15. #165
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    i find it hard to believe that a seminary or church teacher would use that analogy WITH SMART IN THE ROOM.

    Those analogies are always a bad idea but, gee whiz, have a little sensitivity towards the most well-known rape victim since Helen of Troy.
    I think she said it happened when she was younger. But if it happened after her ordeal then someone really blew it.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think she said it happened when she was younger. But if it happened after her ordeal then someone really blew it.
    The article I read she talked about, "Are you really saying that with me here?..." So I'm fairly certain it was after.

    Like you I haven't heard those analogies well until I read about it on message boards, neither had my wife.

    However, because of hearing about their widespread use I've on a couple of occasions, when asked to teach the youth, brought them up. Then I explain how utterly false they are and how those analogies fly in direct contradiction to what we know of the Atonement of Christ.

    To date nobody has heard those analogies either but if or when they do, they'll be able to see through it quickly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #167
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The article I read she talked about, "Are you really saying that with me here?..." So I'm fairly certain it was after.

    Like you I haven't heard those analogies well until I read about it on message boards, neither had my wife.

    However, because of hearing about their widespread use I've on a couple of occasions, when asked to teach the youth, brought them up. Then I explain how utterly false they are and how those analogies fly in direct contradiction to what we know of the Atonement of Christ.

    To date nobody has heard those analogies either but if or when they do, they'll be able to see through it quickly.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Kids today need to hear about the Atonement over and over and in depth, from various perspectives. That's always been true but it's never been more necessary than it is today. It's such a tough world for them.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #168
    Walking into church this morning, my 9 year old daughter froze right at the door to the building.

    -I forgot my sweater at home.
    -It's 105 today. I think you'll be fine.
    -But my dress doesn't have sleeves.
    -Really? Are you worried about that?
    -Sometimes when girls don't have sleeves, people at church say something to them?
    -Other kids say something when kids don't have sleeves?
    -No. The grown ups say something about being modest.
    -I'm in primary with you and I've never heard someone say anything like that. Are you sure?
    -Not in this ward but in our last ward someone did.

    So, when my daughter was 7, a grown up in Primary made a comment to her about her showing too much arm. Now she has PTSD.


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  19. #169
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Walking into church this morning, my 9 year old daughter froze right at the door to the building.

    -I forgot my sweater at home.
    -It's 105 today. I think you'll be fine.
    -But my dress doesn't have sleeves.
    -Really? Are you worried about that?
    -Sometimes when girls don't have sleeves, people at church say something to them?
    -Other kids say something when kids don't have sleeves?
    -No. The grown ups say something about being modest.
    -I'm in primary with you and I've never heard someone say anything like that. Are you sure?
    -Not in this ward but in our last ward someone did.

    So, when my daughter was 7, a grown up in Primary made a comment to her about her showing too much arm. Now she has PTSD.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sigh.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Walking into church this morning, my 9 year old daughter froze right at the door to the building.

    -I forgot my sweater at home.
    -It's 105 today. I think you'll be fine.
    -But my dress doesn't have sleeves.
    -Really? Are you worried about that?
    -Sometimes when girls don't have sleeves, people at church say something to them?
    -Other kids say something when kids don't have sleeves?
    -No. The grown ups say something about being modest.
    -I'm in primary with you and I've never heard someone say anything like that. Are you sure?
    -Not in this ward but in our last ward someone did.

    So, when my daughter was 7, a grown up in Primary made a comment to her about her showing too much arm. Now she has PTSD.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Wow.....

  21. #171
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    We need a Dieter Uchtdorf talk on this in General Conference.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #172
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    We need a Dieter Uchtdorf General Conference talk on this.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #173
    https://www.lds.org/liahona/1999/03/...ivate?lang=eng

    I shared my own favorite object lesson. Nearly 40 years earlier a bishop’s counselor passed a clean, new piece of candy around a group of deacons. Then he offered the handled and somewhat sticky piece of candy to anyone who wanted to eat it. No one did. This wise teacher challenged us to remember the lesson when we were old enough to begin dating. We needed to keep ourselves morally clean and to respect our dates. It was a lesson on chastity I never forgot.

  24. #174
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The trick is to balance two key teachings. On the one hand, to be consistent with church doctrine we have to teach kids that living the law of chastity will bring them peace and happiness and is what a loving God has asked them to do. On the other hand, we have to teach them about an infinite Atonement, also the gift of a loving God, which is fundamental to our religion, and the "chewed gum" analogy flies in the face of that belief. We have to teach both principles without giving kids the idea that they can go ahead and do whatever they want because they can always repent later. The chewed gum/licked cupcake lesson is just the wrong way to teach either principle. People need to stop using it.

    (BTW, NWUF, good catch on the 1999 Ensign article. It is, however, from 1999 and is about teaching skills, and refers to a lesson the writer saw 40 years earlier. I think the institutional church still deserves a break here. This is a cultural problem, not something that the church's leaders are teaching or asking to be taught.)
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-04-2016 at 11:14 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    I can understand and appreciate where they are trying to go with the 'chewed gum' analogy and others similar to it. But its soooooo bad as to be a slap in the face to what the lds church teaches about the atonement.

    I've shared it here before but when I was out spreading the good word, we had a very nice young lady come to church one day. She was from what we would affectionately call the ghetto. She didn't have much.

    When she arrived, her dress was not "for the strength of youth" approved but it wasn't horrible either. Almost immediately after she entered, my companion took off his suit jacket and awkwardly threw it around her, saying "I just don't want you to get cold.".

    Well, we literally never saw or heard from her again. I regret it all these years later, not taking control and preventing that.

    To be fair, we were on thin ice with that ward as two weeks earlier we had brought a drunk guy to church who had yelled during the sacrament and had yelled at a speaker for mentioning Donnie and Marie.

    Now that I think about it, my companion told me that while I was getting ready for the day, he had called this drunk guy and had been told that he was drunk and looking for a fight and had sent someone to pick him up anyway. ...maybe that companion was just a tool......where am I going with any of this???

    Oh yeah.....chewed gum analogies suck. Between a person who became chewed gum but is a person who loves everyone and tries to make the world a better place and my companion who was a putz, is rather have my daughter marry the former.

  26. #176
    This is an amazing and poignant video, and should be the message we teach our children and tell ourselves:


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