ordainwomen.org

[Rocker Ute]

If women are getting offended by being told that motherhood equates to fatherhood and not to fatherhood + priesthood, that's just a pathology of their 'knowledge' about motherhood's putative primacy in Mormondom made manifest. The sooner we stop putting women on a pedestal for being moms, culturally, the sooner we can move past that line of juvenile thinking. Each role is difficult. One is not nobler than the other.

So the message is take me off of this pedestal because I want to be put up on another pedestal? I might argue that the current popular notion of equality is primitive in that I have never in my life seen it actually exist. And yes, I will put my mom and wife on a pedestal because they are the two single most important figures in my life who have influenced me like none other, and all others combined don't even equal what they've contributed to my life. I'll go out on a limb and assume that this is probably true for many others here too.

[Scratch]

If women are getting offended by being told that motherhood equates to fatherhood and not to fatherhood + priesthood, that's just a pathology of their 'knowledge' about motherhood's putative primacy in Mormondom made manifest. The sooner we stop putting women on a pedestal for being moms, culturally, the sooner we can move past that line of juvenile thinking. Each role is difficult. One is not nobler than the other.

So now any woman who esteems motherhood highly is pathological and juvenile? I don't like telling people how they should value their choices, whether it's about how they view their choice to be a mom or how they view their choice to pursue priesthood expansion.

[Flystripper]

So the message is take me off of this pedestal because I want to be put up on another pedestal? I might argue that the current popular notion of equality is primitive in that I have never in my life seen it actually exist. And yes, I will put my mom and wife on a pedestal because they are the two single most important figures in my life who have influenced me like none other, and all others combined don't even equal what they've contributed to my life. I'll go out on a limb and assume that this is probably true for many others here too.

Individual pedestals erected by individuals, for individuals, are great. Institutionalized pedestals erected by organizations, for entire genders, are not OK.

[Rocker Ute]

Individual pedestals erected by individuals, for individuals, are great. Institutionalized pedestals erected by organizations, for entire genders, are not OK.

What if I hold in esteem other women who do similar things for other people? Is that okay?

[Scratch]

Bingo. This pedestalization of motherhood isn't doing men or women any favors.

I disagree with what you're saying here on numerous levels, including your attempt to qualify my position as "pedestalizing" motherhood (along with all of the negative connotations that come along with that), but I don't want to get into a pissing match over that. All I'm saying is that I hope all people can find value and importance in how they choose to live their lives. As to your other question, this goes for single sisters, too. I hope that they can find value and importance in their lives, but I also believe that they can do so without tearing down the life choices that others have made. Note that I never said that women (or people) who value motherhood highly are right, I just said that I would prefer that those who disagree with them do so without simultaneously attacking those who have different value structures.

[Rocker Ute]

I disagree. The whole argument is about sameness. The Church maintains that you can have equality without sameness - that different types of access and opportunity are enough. The petition maintains that no amount of different responsibility, input, or leadership can be enough without the sameness in position.

Based on my very limited experience in marriage, I would say that I do believe in equality without sameness.

I've just been trying to steer this thread into a conversation about solid fundamental basketball vs dunking skills.

[LA Ute]

Individual pedestals erected by individuals, for individuals, are great. Institutionalized pedestals erected by organizations, for entire genders, are not OK.

I agree with this. I do think, however, that any pedestalization is cultural, not doctrinal. From the much-maligned Proclamation on the Family:

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children.... Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations....

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.

(Emphasis added.) I am not seeing any pedestalization there at all.

As a purely personal matter, I share Rocker's view. I am in awe of my wife and my mother's ability to do what they do (and neither of them could be fairly described as "stay at home moms"). But that doesn't change my core view of what our respective responsibilities are, or whether one of us is more important than the other.

[Mrs. Funk]

I remember the day of our son's blessing with vividness. I remember feeling sort of lost as the men in our extended family rose to circle up around our child I had carried until three weeks before. The men are good men whom I love and who love our son, but they had nothing to do with bringing our baby into the world. In that moment, nothing seemed more natural or right to me than for we, his parents, who co-created this little human with God to bless and consecrate his life to God together. It felt strange and unnatural to me that people who were still near strangers to our son could participate in his blessing while I sat as a mere observer.

Perhaps this sounds grasping or blasphemous to some. Wishing to participate in our child's blessing is a holy desire to me. I support ordination of women for this and other reasons, none of which have to do with denigrating motherhood. And if it means I have to clear sidewalks when it snows, hand me a shovel.

[Scratch]

I remember the day of our son's blessing with vividness. I remember feeling sort of lost as the men in our extended family rose to circle up around our child I had carried until three weeks before. The men are good men whom I love and who love our son, but they had nothing to do with bringing our baby into the world. In that moment, nothing seemed more natural or right to me than for we, his parents, who co-created this little human with God to bless and consecrate his life to God together. It felt strange and unnatural to me that people who were still near strangers to our son could participate in his blessing while I sat as a mere observer.

Perhaps this sounds grasping or blasphemous to some. Wishing to participate in our child's blessing is a holy desire to me. I support ordination of women for this and other reasons, none of which have to do with denigrating motherhood. And if it means I have to clear sidewalks when it snows, hand me a shovel.

Thanks for adding this. This is a perfect example of what I was trying to say, whether I said it or not. There are plenty of ways to advocate, and lots of good arguments (like the one you just made), without denigrating motherhood. Thanks; great post.

[LA Ute]

I remember the day of our son's blessing with vividness. I remember feeling sort of lost as the men in our extended family rose to circle up around our child I had carried until three weeks before. The men are good men whom I love and who love our son, but they had nothing to do with bringing our baby into the world. In that moment, nothing seemed more natural or right to me than for we, his parents, who co-created this little human with God to bless and consecrate his life to God together. It felt strange and unnatural to me that people who were still near strangers to our son could participate in his blessing while I sat as a mere observer.

Perhaps this sounds grasping or blasphemous to some. Wishing to participate in our child's blessing is a holy desire to me. I support ordination of women for this and other reasons, none of which have to do with denigrating motherhood. And if it means I have to clear sidewalks when it snows, hand me a shovel.

I personally feel it would be nice if the mother could hold the baby while it is being blessed. That might be seen as even worse, however.

[Virginia Ute]

http://ordainwomen.org/

This is a website that just went live a few days ago and is authored by a DC area woman Super and I know. I thought this might spark some interesting debate. I'll just get my cards on the table that I believe most women for whom this is a concern are probably better off outside the church at the end of the day, so I'm not necessarily itching for them to achieve their goals. But I respect what they are attempting. Here are some interesting quotes from the FAQ page:

This seems like an exercise in futility for these people and will most likely end in either them leaving the church or them giving up on their cause. Praying in general conference is one thing, but ordaining women to the Preisthood would require some deep doctrinal changes that warrant more than just popular opinion.

[Mrs. Funk]

I personally feel it would be nice if the mother could hold the baby while it is being blessed. That might be seen as even worse, however.

I think it's an easy way to involve mothers that doesn't require radical change. It certainly would be a start at least.

[Mrs. Funk]

Funny, I always feel like the blessing is one the first chances I have to really do something myself for the baby after Mom has done pretty much everything. I'm there at the very beginning of course, and then nine months later I just stand there in the hospital not doing much other than giving encouragement. Then baby sleeps and eats 20 hours a day, until I finally get a little moment to feel special as a Dad. I'm sure there are 1,000 other different perspectives on the experience.

I'm sorry it was not enjoyable for you. It is tragic that it felt so strange and unnatural.

My feelings about the blessing are complicated. It was a nice moment for our families and the blessing was beautiful, &c., &c. My role as an observer felt strange and unnatural.

Perhaps your experience has been different, but pregnancy and childbirth were definitely a team effort for us. I had a difficult pregnancy in some respects and mpfunk had to step up a lot. Childbirth was a grueling and wonderful experience for both of us. Our choice to work with a midwife and a birth center meant he had a very active role throughout the entire birth.

The very last thing in the world I want is to take something away from my husband. I don't think he would view my participation in a blessing as doing that, though.

[LA Ute]

My feelings about the blessing are complicated. It was a nice moment for our families and the blessing was beautiful, &c., &c. My role as an observer felt strange and unnatural.

Perhaps your experience has been different, but pregnancy and childbirth were definitely a team effort for us. I had a difficult pregnancy in some respects and mpfunk had to step up a lot. Childbirth was a grueling and wonderful experience for both of us. Our choice to work with a midwife and a birth center meant he had a very active role throughout the entire birth.

The very last thing in the world I want is to take something away from my husband. I don't think he would view my participation in a blessing as doing that, though.

If the baby were ill and your husband gave him a blessing, you'd hold him. So I really don't know why a mom couldn't do the same thing in a baby blessing. It seems to me this has been proposed (and even done) in the past, and was stopped. But Handbook 2 currently says only this:

Only brethren who hold the necessary priesthood and are worthy may perform an ordinance or blessing or stand in the circle....When several brethren participate in an ordinance or blessing, each one places his right hand lightly on the person’s head (or under the baby being blessed) and his left hand on the shoulder of the brother to his left.

So there's some wiggle room there, I think. You wouldn't be standing in the circle. Still, there's a suggestion that the baby should be held by the men performing the blessing, which would be awkward if the mom were also holding the baby. That seems like a practice to me, not a principle, which could be worked out. But I just work here.

[UtahDan]

I disagree with what you're saying here on numerous levels, including your attempt to qualify my position as "pedestalizing" motherhood (along with all of the negative connotations that come along with that), but I don't want to get into a pissing match over that. All I'm saying is that I hope all people can find value and importance in how they choose to live their lives. As to your other question, this goes for single sisters, too. I hope that they can find value and importance in their lives, but I also believe that they can do so without tearing down the life choices that others have made. Note that I never said that women (or people) who value motherhood highly are right, I just said that I would prefer that those who disagree with them do so without simultaneously attacking those who have different value structures.

You might be interested to know that the vast majority of women who have been involved in both the pants movement as well as the ordain women movement are mothers. Most of them stay at home mothers.

I do see what you are saying though.

[DrumNFeather]

I've just been trying to steer this thread into a conversation about solid fundamental basketball vs dunking skills.

You're on the right track here...but if a website is needed, it should be for bringing back regional basketball tournaments. I grew up in a church that had trophies in trophy cases in some buildings. Whatever happened to that?

[DrumNFeather]

And now to add to the actual discussion.

I sincerely hope that those behind this movement get or find everything they desire out of it. If it helps them stay in or return to the fold, all the better. I'm just not sure how to solve the severe disconnect between any movement like this and the church. Frankly, it would require a level of mutual respect, faith, and understanding that I'm not sure either side is prepared for.

[CardiacCoug]

I personally feel it would be nice if the mother could hold the baby while it is being blessed. That might be seen as even worse, however.

Funny. Do you think it would be nice if the mother could bless the baby? Seems like it would be even nicer, no?

[LA Ute]

Funny. Do you think it would be nice if the mother could bless the baby? Seems like it would be even nicer, no?

Don't you have lives to save somewhere?

Seriously, I was just thinking of ways to involve the mom. Ms. Funk even said she likes the idea, even if it doesn't go all the way. Sorry, her vote counts more than yours.

[Mrs. Funk]

Don't you have lives to save somewhere?

Seriously, I was just thinking of ways to involve the mom. Ms. Funk even said she likes the idea, even if it doesn't go all the way. Sorry, her vote counts more than yours.

I like the idea of participating in the circle better of course, but I think having mothers hold the babies is a valid option for them to participate within the existing framework. I would have liked for it to have been an option for me.

[USS Utah]

Speaking of baby blessings, I would like to suggest that they no longer be done during Sacrament Meeting. Sunday's with multiple baby blessings can be difficult for those who do not have children.

[LA Ute]

I like the idea of participating in the circle better of course, but I think having mothers hold the babies is a valid option for them to participate within the existing framework. I would have liked for it to have been an option for me.

Yes, you hold the baby, the men lay hands on him/her. Seems pretty slick to me. I have seen older children (toddlers) blessed, and the moms have held them on their laps while the husband does the ordinance. Simple.

[Mrs. Funk]

Yes, you hold the baby, the men lay hands on him/her. Seems pretty slick to me. I have seen older children (toddlers) blessed, and the moms have held them on their laps while the husband does the ordinance. Simple.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I've held our son during every other blessing he's had.

[LA Ute]

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I've held our son during every other blessing he's had.

I was agreeing with you!

[Mrs. Funk]

I was agreeing with you!

Sorry. It seemed like you were explaining how we'd go about it like I didn't understand. Anyway, yeah. No reason for mothers not to hold their babies.

[LA Ute]

Sorry. It seemed like you were explaining how we'd go about it like I didn't understand. Anyway, yeah. No reason for mothers not to hold their babies.

That was for the benefit of others on the board.

[Mrs. Funk]

Your holy desire reminds me of Alma, whose great wish was to be an angel.

I don't see the parallel. I understand that both seem equally implausible to you. But our church's history has women blessing each other, anointing and administering women during childbirth, and even blessing the sick. A desire for reinstatement of those practices doesn't seem to me analogous to wanting to sprout wings and shout repentance with a trumpet.

[Scratch]

You might be interested to know that the vast majority of women who have been involved in both the pants movement as well as the ordain women movement are mothers. Most of them stay at home mothers.

I do see what you are saying though.

Oh, I'm sure of that, and it wasn't my intention to imply otherwise. I'm sure there are also plenty of single women who would be opposed to the movements. My intention, whether it was expressed or not, was to differentiate between the different viewpoints as well and say that we should try to fund ways to encourage self-esteem, fulfillment, and self-worth for all of the differing viewpoints. I think it's possible to do without attacking the ways others accomplish those goals, that's all.

[wuapinmon]

So now any woman who esteems motherhood highly is pathological and juvenile? I don't like telling people how they should value their choices, whether it's about how they view their choice to be a mom or how they view their choice to pursue priesthood expansion.

If people get offended because someone tells them that motherhood and fatherhood are equals, that the priesthood isn't a consolation prize for not having a womb, then they are indeed pathological and juvenile in their thinking.

So the message is take me off of this pedestal because I want to be put up on another pedestal? I might argue that the current popular notion of equality is primitive in that I have never in my life seen it actually exist. And yes, I will put my mom and wife on a pedestal because they are the two single most important figures in my life who have influenced me like none other, and all others combined don't even equal what they've contributed to my life. I'll go out on a limb and assume that this is probably true for many others here too.

No, that's not the message at all. Who views the priesthood as a pedestal? I view it as a burden usually. It means that I'm going to asked to do things for people at inopportune times and be given assignments to do things to save the church money (like driving sister missionaries to district meeting). It's fine for you to put your mom and wife on pedestals. And, many might share this view. I'd counter that that's a product of the social construction of your reality, especially in the case of your mother. To paraphrase Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann:

Persons and groups interacting in a social system create, over time, concepts or mental representations of each other's actions, and that these concepts eventually become habituated into reciprocal roles played by the actors in relation to each other. When these roles are made available to other members of society to enter into and play out, the reciprocal interactions are said to be institutionalized. In the process of this institutionalization meaning is embedded in society. Knowledge and people's conception (and belief) of what reality is becomes embedded in the institutional fabric of society. Reality is therefore said to be socially constructed.

You've decided that you know that your mother's role in your life gave meaning to it more than anyone else. That reality is socially constructed. If we imbue the sacrifices of motherhood with special meaning, privileging them over the ones of fatherhood, we arrive where we are. Veneration of motherhood arises in many cultures, especially in ones with motherhood infused with divine qualities. Our God was born of a Virgin Mother! Billions worship her! It's not a stretch to see that enculturation even in your post-Protestant Western American Mormon upbringing.

Whoa! Slow down man, you're talking to a bunch of football fans here.

I use a full spectrum vocabulary. Yall can keep up. If not, google "defineutative."

Individual pedestals erected by individuals, for individuals, are great. Institutionalized pedestals erected by organizations, for entire genders, are not OK.

I agree completely. Pedestals of motherhood are individual.

I agree with this. I do think, however, that any pedestalization is cultural, not doctrinal. From the much-maligned Proclamation on the Family:



(Emphasis added.) I am not seeing any pedestalization there at all.

As a purely personal matter, I share Rocker's view. I am in awe of my wife and my mother's ability to do what they do (and neither of them could be fairly described as "stay at home moms"). But that doesn't change my core view of what our respective responsibilities are, or whether one of us is more important than the other.

Here's a good talk by Elder Holland about motherhood. I can get behind this talk. https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...other?lang=eng

[Rocker Ute]

You've decided that you know that your mother's role in your life gave meaning to it more than anyone else. That reality is socially constructed. If we imbue the sacrifices of motherhood with special meaning, privileging them over the ones of fatherhood, we arrive where we are.

Thank you for telling me what I've decided.

Motherhood is more than a social construct, it is also a biological one. I don't hide that I'm a believer, so I also believe that there is a divine construct as well.

But even biologically and developmentally a mother's role is pretty important and can't be replaced by a man.

And historically a woman's role in society has been fundamentally critical into developing to where we stand as a society today.

I don't see any need to use that as a justification for what a woman should or shouldn't be able to do in the world or within a religion. But I also think it is worthy of some heightened respect.

I also don't think that respect or pedestal lessens their ability to function in society as they chose, nor does it minimize the roles of a father. I happen to have a great one of those too. I feel fortunate to have two people in my life who chose to invest and commit to me and my siblings, and think it is commendable for anyone out there in either role who does the same.