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Thread: The Higher Education Thread

  1. #31
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    My wife is dealing with this right now in the secondary ed space. She has a Psychology degree with an emphasis in Child Development but no teaching certificate. A few years ago after the kids were old enough, she decided she'd like to start teaching. She started substituting and eventually got a part-time hourly job teaching two periods of Child Development at a local HS. She is enthusastic, loves the kids, they love her, they consitently get the highest test scores in her derpartment, etc. She can't stand the other teachers and has started avoiding the teacher's lounge becuase of ther bad attitudes towards the kids, etc. They also treat her like shit because she is not a "credentialed teacher" and thus obviously doesn't know how to teach, manage the classroom, etc.

    So she decided she really enjoys this (teaching HS no less) and started investigating alternative paths to licensure figuring she'd have to take a few classes, do student teaching, etc. Lo and behold, for her particular bachelor's degree, there isn't one. It's not on the "approved list" of undergrad degrees for the program. She basically has to get a 2nd Bachelor's Degree. A master's degree you say? No, that would have to be in education and her undergrad doesn't qualify her for the program. So here she is, working a maximum of two class periods per semester, at a lowly hourly wage, donating all her own time for prep, etc. and only really doing it because she loves it. But it is sounding like for next year they are going to hire a full-time teacher in her department (which includes things like foods and sewing) to teach a full load across all of those. So she will be out. It's not a finanical issue for us, we cdon't need the money. It's mad money for her and she does it because she likes it.

    Next time you hear the bulshit about how there aren't enough good teachers, look right to the UEA and their cronies. That is the source of all of this.
    I have a similar story. Boiled down, I was teaching HS as a full-time sub for awhile (with an MA), but to get a credential I would have had to take a bunch of classes and do student-teaching in order to qualify for the job I already held.

    No thanks. I went back to grad school. It's too bad, though - sometimes I really miss coaching HS football.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  2. #32
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    It's the pedagogues. The very ones teaching our teachers are the root cause of the problems. They are the Sith Lords of Education.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  3. #33
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    It's the pedagogues. The very ones teaching our teachers are the root cause of the problems. They are the Sith Lords of Education.
    I used to say "pedagogía" as a way to practice my soft "d" and to remember to pronounce the "a" correctly ("ah") without Gringo-izing it as "uh."

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is a thread about higher ed, including professional schools like medicine, dentristry, law, and business. I think we can have some interesting discussions here about all of that. We even have a professor or two among our ranks.

    I'll start with this:

    The Golf Shot Heard Round the Academic World




    I'm one of those conservatives who supports and thinks he understands higher education. One aspect of attending the U. of U. that I loved and am grateful for is the exposure it gave me to different ideas, different worldviews, and the like. I feel I had a truly liberal education, in the classical sense. I want that for all my kids. But based on the above I wouldn't want to fork out the money necessary for a Bowdoin education.
    The importance that some families and kids put on getting into Ivy League or similar caliber schools is totally ridiculous.

    A daughter of one of my colleagues just learned that she didn't get into Dartmouth and was completely crushed by it, totally out of proportion to any significance of this event. One of the main reasons students and parents continue to shell out ridiculous amounts of money is because it's not the education they are buying -- they (both student and parents) are buying status, validation, and self-worth. It's an interesting phenomenon but a lot of people relate to college (and obviously high school) choice a lot like they relate to what car they drive. They only enjoy the college/car for what they perceive it says about them and not for its own merits.

  5. #35
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    The importance that some families and kids put on getting into Ivy League or similar caliber schools is totally ridiculous.

    A daughter of one of my colleagues just learned that she didn't get into Dartmouth and was completely crushed by it, totally out of proportion to any significance of this event. One of the main reasons students and parents continue to shell out ridiculous amounts of money is because it's not the education they are buying -- they (both student and parents) are buying status, validation, and self-worth. It's an interesting phenomenon but a lot of people relate to college (and obviously high school) choice a lot like they relate to what car they drive. They only enjoy the college/car for what they perceive it says about them and not for its own merits.
    This Ross Douthat piece in the NYT is about how the Ivies are more about connections than education. It's a foreign world to me so I don't know if he is right. I have plenty of colleagues who went to Harvard Law School (and similar schools) and they don't seem any better-connected than the rest of us, but I think Douthat (a prep school and Harvard grad) is talking about the undergraduate experience.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #36
    Living in the past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I have a similar story. Boiled down, I was teaching HS as a full-time sub for awhile (with an MA), but to get a credential I would have had to take a bunch of classes and do student-teaching in order to qualify for the job I already held.

    No thanks. I went back to grad school. It's too bad, though - sometimes I really miss coaching HS football.
    What sucks is that it is the students who suffer.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    The importance that some families and kids put on getting into Ivy League or similar caliber schools is totally ridiculous.

    A daughter of one of my colleagues just learned that she didn't get into Dartmouth and was completely crushed by it, totally out of proportion to any significance of this event. One of the main reasons students and parents continue to shell out ridiculous amounts of money is because it's not the education they are buying -- they (both student and parents) are buying status, validation, and self-worth. It's an interesting phenomenon but a lot of people relate to college (and obviously high school) choice a lot like they relate to what car they drive. They only enjoy the college/car for what they perceive it says about them and not for its own merits.
    I agree that it is silly to make college attendance a status symbol, but as this thread has shown, there are plenty of instances where attending an Ivy (or, more importantly, an elite institution in the given field) is vitally important. For example, if you're getting a Ph.D. and want to teach college, you better be going to one of the absolute elite Ph.D. programs in the country. I'm a lawyer, and law is very similar, especially now. Now, I don't think where you go to law school has a lot to do with how good of a lawyer you will become (assuming you have the abilities in the first place), but if you look at the hiring patterns right now, it's pretty hard to get a good job out of law school unless you went to a top school. The difference between going to law school at a top 10 or 15 school and a very good but not great law school like Utah or BYU is so monumentally different in the opportunities available at graduation that failing to get into such a program in the current legal market could be a justifiable cause for concern. I don't know exactly how it shakes out for other professions, but this is undeniable in law right now.

    Again, I'm not saying that there is some sort of automatic significant difference in a graduate of these institutions, or the actual education a student will receive, but it's impossible to deny the actual numbers that are seen for recent law grads.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    I agree that it is silly to make college attendance a status symbol, but as this thread has shown, there are plenty of instances where attending an Ivy (or, more importantly, an elite institution in the given field) is vitally important. For example, if you're getting a Ph.D. and want to teach college, you better be going to one of the absolute elite Ph.D. programs in the country. I'm a lawyer, and law is very similar, especially now. Now, I don't think where you go to law school has a lot to do with how good of a lawyer you will become (assuming you have the abilities in the first place), but if you look at the hiring patterns right now, it's pretty hard to get a good job out of law school unless you went to a top school. The difference between going to law school at a top 10 or 15 school and a very good but not great law school like Utah or BYU is so monumentally different in the opportunities available at graduation that failing to get into such a program in the current legal market could be a justifiable cause for concern. I don't know exactly how it shakes out for other professions, but this is undeniable in law right now.

    Again, I'm not saying that there is some sort of automatic significant difference in a graduate of these institutions, or the actual education a student will receive, but it's impossible to deny the actual numbers that are seen for recent law grads.
    It has always, always been hard to get tenure track teaching positions at every level. When I was in college, I was an English lit major and thought long and hard about going to English lit grad school. My sophmore year, I took a Shakespeare class, where the TA was about to get his PHD. He was possibly the most insightful grad student I ever had as a ta, and he had a great pedigree (Princeton undergrad, yale PHD). He posted all of his rejections on his office wall. There were dozens of them; they covered the entire office. I dont remember where he finally got an offer and where he ended up. but it convinced me to go to law school (after a frolic and detour in journalism).

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That is absolutely correct about PhD programs and law schools. I have also seen it with MBAs. I am less certain about med schools, since my doctor friends who went to fancy med schools and my doctor friends who studied in the caribbean all ended up with similar jobs.

    But grad school is not really the issue here. The question is - does it matter where you go as an undergrad? There's no simple answer, and it depends on your goals.
    If it's just undergrad, I agree that it's not terribly important for most areas. There may be some exceptions, but my take on careers that require post-grad studies is that you just need to get into an undergrad that is good enough that it will not foreclose grad school opportunities. In other words, an undergrad that is good enough to get you into any grad program if you do great in undergrad and do all of the other things necessary for a strong application. When I was deciding where to go to undergrad, an attorney who was a Rhodes scholar who did his undergrad at Oxford and Stanford gave me this exact advice and told me in the long run it wouldn't make a difference.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    If it's just undergrad, I agree that it's not terribly important for most areas. There may be some exceptions, but my take on careers that require post-grad studies is that you just need to get into an undergrad that is good enough that it will not foreclose grad school opportunities. In other words, an undergrad that is good enough to get you into any grad program if you do great in undergrad and do all of the other things necessary for a strong application. When I was deciding where to go to undergrad, an attorney who was a Rhodes scholar who did his undergrad at Oxford and Stanford gave me this exact advice and told me in the long run it wouldn't make a difference.
    You took advice from Pat Shea? I cant believe Scott Matheson would have given you that advice. (just kidding)
    Last edited by concerned; 04-11-2013 at 12:48 PM.

  11. #41
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    I've been lurking this thread and find it interesting as I have a H.S. junior who is planning on going to college. Are you guys stating that what undergrad school you go to does not make a difference ? In job market or for grad school ?

    My son is all over the place on what he wants to do for a living. One week it is law enforcement the next he is into economics. He has taken three languages in HS and his reading scores for the ACT and SAT are in the top 99%. Math is average. I wish he had one school he really wants but he doesn't. I am very stressed on where he will go to school.
    Any advice would be appreciated.

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    Sancho, Thanks for the response. His GPA isn't that good around 3.9 this semester weighted, higher earlier this year. 4.0 is safe to say. 28 ACT 1880 SAT. My wife really wanted him to go to Provo but I doubt it with his GPA. Eagle Scout, Natl Honor Society, football. Not good enough for UNC our state school but probaby good enough for NC State. We would like him to go to school at a place where he can meet other LDS kids. He is the only male LDS in his HS and he gets along well but doesn't have really tight friends. Thats why we are thinking of out west. We really wish he had a strong opinion on where wants to go but he is pretty open minded. Any thoughts ?

  13. #43
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    I've been lurking this thread and find it interesting as I have a H.S. junior who is planning on going to college. Are you guys stating that what undergrad school you go to does not make a difference ? In job market or for grad school ?

    My son is all over the place on what he wants to do for a living. One week it is law enforcement the next he is into economics. He has taken three languages in HS and his reading scores for the ACT and SAT are in the top 99%. Math is average. I wish he had one school he really wants but he doesn't. I am very stressed on where he will go to school.
    Any advice would be appreciated.
    He should go where they want HIM. With that score, he could get all kinds of money from a mid-level private college. Has he looked at Elon or Furman?
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    He should go where they want HIM. With that score, he could get all kinds of money from a mid-level private college. Has he looked at Elon or Furman?
    That is good advice. I have thought of Furman and looked into it. The local bishop went to Utah State for undergrad and UNC for grad and is a professor of economics at Furman. Young really nice guy who grew up in Oklahoma. He said the eight or so LDS that go are not that active and none will serve a mission. This is the stuff that makes it hard for me. I'd like him to have some sort of a social life yet the school be good. We have even thought of sending him to non BYU Utah schools. He went to efy one summer at Utah State and got along fine with those kids. But is it worth it to pay out of state for a Utah school when he could go to a Furman type school ?
    Last edited by OceanBlue; 04-14-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  15. #45
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    That is good advice. I have thought of Furman and looked into it. The local bishop went to Utah State for undergrad and UNC for grad and is a professor of economics at Furman. Young really nice guy who grew up in Oklahoma. He said the eight or so LDS that go are not that active and none will serve a mission. This is the stuff that makes it hard for me. I'd like him to have some sort of a social life yet the school be good. We have even thought of sending him to non BYU Utah schools. He went to efy one summer at Utah State and got along fine with those kids. But is it worth it to pay out of state for a Utah school when he could go to a Furman type school ?
    If he has a really good scholarship, it probably doesn't matter if it's for out-of-state tuition or not. This is a good time to look into Utah schools since enrollments are in flux with the new missionary ages.

    For Utah schools with sizable LDS populations, there's the Flagship Institution for which this fair board is named.
    I have good things to say about the academics at Utah State & Southern Utah. I have bad things to say about Dixie. UVU can go either way.

    I go back and forth on the "it doesn't matter where you do your undergrad" debate.
    On the one hand, it's true - standardized test scores go a long ways towards getting into grad programs regardless of undergraduate institution.
    On the other hand, bigger/richer schools have more resources and more opportunities, whether it's study-abroad programs, a specialized major or program, elaborate alumni networks, and the social benefits of associating closely for four years with elite, smart people.

    It does matter, I guess - but it probably doesn't matter to the tune of $150K.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  16. #46
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    That is good advice. I have thought of Furman and looked into it. The local bishop went to Utah State for undergrad and UNC for grad and is a professor of economics at Furman. Young really nice guy who grew up in Oklahoma. He said the eight or so LDS that go are not that active and none will serve a mission. This is the stuff that makes it hard for me. I'd like him to have some sort of a social life yet the school be good. We have even thought of sending him to non BYU Utah schools. He went to efy one summer at Utah State and got along fine with those kids. But is it worth it to pay out of state for a Utah school when he could go to a Furman type school ?
    Our oldest went to the U. of U. I think an out-of-state LDS student at the U. can have a good experience if he/she is the outgoing type who will live in the dorms and make friends in a student ward, which are huge at the U., or will otherwise make connections. There certainly is a large pool of LDS marriage candidates and a tonj of Institute opportunities for involvement. The Institute is a huge complex with a lot going on. That said, a student who is not the outgoing type might easily get lost there. With your son's grades I think lots of scholarship help would be available.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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    My son is not outgoing. Reserved and quiet unless he knows you well. Offensive lineman who never says a word unless asked. Thats one reason why I think he may do well where there are more LDS kids. At efy Utah State he made friends with kids who were from ranches and rural areas it seems. The other question is do you send a kid to a agriculture school who is more geared towards languages and such ?

  18. #48
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    My son is not outgoing. Reserved and quiet unless he knows you well. Offensive lineman who never says a word unless asked. Thats one reason why I think he may do well where there are more LDS kids. At efy Utah State he made friends with kids who were from ranches and rural areas it seems. The other question is do you send a kid to a agriculture school who is more geared towards languages and such ?
    Maybe Southern Utah University.
    It's got plenty of rural kids and ranchers too, but it is Utah's designated Liberal Arts & Sciences college.
    It's not for everyone, nor does it have every major, but I've been impressed with the direction they're going.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  19. #49
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    That is good advice. I have thought of Furman and looked into it. The local bishop went to Utah State for undergrad and UNC for grad and is a professor of economics at Furman. Young really nice guy who grew up in Oklahoma. He said the eight or so LDS that go are not that active and none will serve a mission. This is the stuff that makes it hard for me. I'd like him to have some sort of a social life yet the school be good. We have even thought of sending him to non BYU Utah schools. He went to efy one summer at Utah State and got along fine with those kids. But is it worth it to pay out of state for a Utah school when he could go to a Furman type school ?
    My wife went to Utah State, and she LOVED it. One cool thing they do now is graduates of USU's kids can always go there for in-state tuition no matter where they live. Ours might make that trek. All of the Mormonness, none of the Honor Code.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  20. #50
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    My wife went to Utah State, and she LOVED it. One cool thing they do now is graduates of USU's kids can always go there for in-state tuition no matter where they live. Ours might make that trek. All of the Mormonness, none of the Honor Code.
    I've heard good things about USU as an undergraduate experience.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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    Guys, thank you for answering my questions. Sorry to have hijacked the thread but you guys have knowledge that I don't have. I never went to a four year school. Somehow I've done ok and work in sales for a Fortune 100 company. I think we will apply to UNC as a reach, NC State, Texas A&M (the only school he has expressed interest in )Utah, Utah State and hope this last semester of his junior year his GPA improves. Most of my college educated ward friends are Y-Provo or Y- Idaho and I've heard mixed things on BYU-Idaho.

    We are also hoping his SAT goes up in May as he is taking a prep class. His AP honors English teacher who has taught for 30 years says he frustrates her as she feels he has Ivy league smarts if he is interested in subject. Loved Russian one and two and got 100's. But if he has no interest like Chemistry this past semester he pulled a C. I wish schools would look and accept on strengths if his major match's that strength. Thank you guys for sharing with me
    Last edited by OceanBlue; 04-14-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I've heard good things about USU as an undergraduate experience.
    Having gone there I would say it depends.

    I enjoyed some things but really disliked Logan. I'm a city kid, and when I went (late 90's) there wasn't much to do up there. It's grown since I left however.

    The one thing about USU is it tends to have a student body from the surrounding area. I found that campus would be empty with little going on during weekends as many students went home. That may also have changed.

    The one thing you have to be prepared for if going to USU is the weather. It can be a shock.

    The education I received was good, and I met some good friends. Of course I also believe it would be a different experience for someone who is LDS, especially in a more rural utah town. (Probably for the better, more support systems and built in avenue for activities)

  23. #53
    Living in the past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    My wife went to Utah State, and she LOVED it. One cool thing they do now is graduates of USU's kids can always go there for in-state tuition no matter where they live. Ours might make that trek. All of the Mormonness, none of the Honor Code.
    My daughter is going there in the fall and is excited about it. My wife and I both went there as well. So the in-state tuition thing will be good if we ever escape Utah.

  24. #54
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Hang out around here long enough and hopefully you will have heard mixed things on BYU-Provo too!
    People get lost there too.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    People get lost there too.
    I've talked to many out of state LDS folks who couldn't handle it down there. I think even the most ardent LDS would admit being LDS in Provo is different than elsewhere, and that can be a big negative for many.

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    Diehard, are you LEO ? If so what degree is considered most valuable ?

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    Diehard, are you LEO ? If so what degree is considered most valuable ?
    I am. Honestly most departments really don't seem to care what your degree is in, more that you have one (although it's still not required)

    A criminal justice degree is probably most applicable. Mine is in ornamental horticulture, hasn't held me back haha

    My line of work is about common sense and the ability to control emotions, spelling is just a big bonus

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    My sons always had an interest in LE. Not sure if it will hold through college as some weeks he expresses interest in other areas. My brother in law was LE and did 20 years and retired at 44.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    My sons always had an interest in LE. Not sure if it will hold through college as some weeks he expresses interest in other areas. My brother in law was LE and did 20 years and retired at 44.
    That has been my U. grad (next month) son's ambition since childhood. Now he will have a degree in Sociology and a criminal justice certificate and we will see how he does getting on somewhere.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #60
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    499
    As a convert, I loved the culture of Utah County at first. After a few years I was ready to move on. I've got soul, but I'm not a souldier.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

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