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Thread: The Higher Education Thread

  1. #61
    Living in the past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I've talked to many out of state LDS folks who couldn't handle it down there. I think even the most ardent LDS would admit being LDS in Provo is different than elsewhere, and that can be a big negative for many.
    The Utah County bubble as opposed to the Utah bubble is a distinction that always makes me chuckle. For those of us who have spent the majority of our lives outside of Utah, all of Utah and Southeastern Idaho constitute the bubble. I'm an LDS from out of state that struggles a lot in Utah for many cultural reasons. But they are certainly not limited ot Utah County. I have lived in Logan (albeit during school which is a bit different), Salt Lake (East Millcreek to be precise), Lehi, Kaysville, and Cedar Hills. I don't fine the Utah County bubble much different than anywhere else. In fact, Salt Lake was a worse experience because there is a real "us vs. them" mentality from some people on both sides.

    When you spend your life where NONE of your neighbors are LDS, the distinction between nearly all of them (Utah County) and just half of them (Salt Lake) doesn't really mean anything. It's still Mormonia.

    The weirdest people / ward we have EVER been in was in Salt Lake.

  2. #62
    Well at least in Salt Lake businesses are allowed to decide for themselves if being open on Sunday is ok...it's not left to voters

  3. #63
    Living in the past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Well at least in Salt Lake businesses are allowed to decide for themselves if being open on Sunday is ok...it's not left to voters
    Hey if you're trying to get me to defend the crazies you'll be disappointed. I'm just saying it from a California/ Texas Mormon's perspective, all of Utah is pretty weird.

  4. #64
    I'm not trying for anything. Just pointing out where the real oddballs are.

    As someone who isn't LDS the northern half of Salt Lake county is pretty nice. The further south or north you go it gets weirder.

  5. #65
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    I'm not trying for anything. Just pointing out where the real oddballs are.

    As someone who isn't LDS the northern half of Salt Lake county is pretty nice. The further south or north you go it gets weirder.
    To bring this conversation almost back on track, I went to a lecture last week from a man who is studying the dynamics between town & gown in the cities with Utah (public) universities. His comments: while the LDS culture certainly flavors Utah higher ed., most of the foibles are traceable to small-town vs. larger city. In other words, the weirdness of Ephraim or the quirks of Cedar City, and their sometimes ambivalent relationships with higher education, are more-or-less consistent with other (non-LDS) small towns throughout the country.

    The Utah version of the small town just happens to be Mormon-oriented. Other places in America have different cultural-religious factors at work, but are just as eccentric.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  6. #66
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    Would this be smart ? Kid wants to be LEO, if it really doesn't matter what degree you get, why not get degree in something like economics in case LEO doesn't work out ?

  7. #67
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    Would this be smart ? Kid wants to be LEO, if it really doesn't matter what degree you get, why not get degree in something like economics in case LEO doesn't work out ?
    He should study English and become the next Joseph Waumbaugh.

    EDIT: That seems too flip. I should add that I know many LEOs who have done other very interesting things after their retirements, so if he gets a degree in something he enjoys he'll be set to move on to something he enjoys when he hangs up his badge.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-16-2013 at 08:26 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #68
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
    Would this be smart ? Kid wants to be LEO, if it really doesn't matter what degree you get, why not get degree in something like economics in case LEO doesn't work out ?
    Leo Major

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Major
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  9. #69
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    From Glenn Reynolds, who writes about the subject often:

    HIGHER EDUCATION BUBBLE UPDATE: Parents should beware of borrowing too much to pay for children’s college education. “Borrowing programs designed to help parents raise money for their children’s education — such as PLUS loans — could potentially hurt the families they are intended to help. The loans are remarkably easy to get, yet nearly impossible to get out from under when families bite off more debt than they can chew.”
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-23-2013 at 06:13 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #70

  11. #71
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    another perspective on going to grad school


    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...-decision.html
    Favorite line:

    "Maybe I’ve been in school too long; doctoral study has a way of turning your head into a never-ending seminar, and I’m now capable of having complicated, inconclusive thoughts about nearly any subject."

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #72
    Caged Wisdom Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Favorite line:

    "Maybe I’ve been in school too long; doctoral study has a way of turning your head into a never-ending seminar, and I’m now capable of having complicated, inconclusive thoughts about nearly any subject."
    This is a fantastic line, with more than a germ of truth in it.

  13. #73
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "College Administrators’ Priorities Not Always The Students"

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...ways-students/

    Really?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #74
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    "College Administrators’ Priorities Not Always The Students"

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.c...ways-students/

    Really?
    This is a ridiculous article and I regret wasting the time I spent reading it.

    1. The gist of it hinges on the difference between "somewhat important" and "very important". Hardly any (<5%) are saying things like graduation rates & employment are not important at all.

    2. The criticism that Administrators aren't sold on MOOCs (massive open online courses) is weak criticism. Online education is very uneven at best. At worst, it's a complete waste of tuition.

    3. The Gallup survey sample "is not nationally representative of U.S. colleges and universities" and includes 4-year schools, 2-year schools, for-profit schools, and community colleges, complicating any idea of a consensus (the problems and mission of a for-profit school are different to some extent from those of a 4-year private liberal arts school)

    4. Of course the article decided that this was far too encouraging: 67& somewhat or strongly agree that "The faculty at my institution continues to adopt better pedagogical strategies in their teaching."

    http://www.gallup.com/strategicconsu...al-report.aspx
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  15. #75
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I agree. That article is garbage.
    I thought it was bad enough to be kind of funny. MOOCs are very popular among the libertarian set, but I don't think MOOCs' time has come yet.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #76
    Higher ed has a host of problems: outrageous tuition, outdated classes, tenure abuses, etc., etc. But higher education is not a bubble, at least not yet. The decision to go to college is still quite rational. From the NYtimes:

    college grads employment.jpg

  17. #77
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I guess this fits here.

    What Do U.S. College Graduates Lack? Professionalism


    I gave an exam last week, and one student showed up 25 minutes late. When the hour ended and I collected the papers, he looked up from his seat, cast a pitiable glance and mumbled, “Please, I got here late -- may I have another 20 minutes?”

    I shook my head and said, “Can’t do that.” His request echoed in my head all the way back to my office. Where in the world did he get the idea that an exam doesn’t begin and end at a set time?

    Employers call it an “employability skill” -- work ethic, timeliness, attendance and so on -- and they deal with it every day. Whenever the National Association of Manufacturers administers its “Skills Gap” surveys to members, failings in this area are as likely to be cited as complaints about inadequate technical and verbal skills.

    In 2001 and 2005, the association’s members rated employability skills as a crushing deficiency in their workforce, and more respondents urged schools to instill better behavior than did those who demanded more training in reading and math....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is certainly true. I think it's a byproduct of (1) helicopter parents and (2) grade inflation. There are fewer consequences in school for being a screw-up, so kids don't learn how to be professional. Additionally, businesses don't want to train people anymore - they want employees who hit the ground running. In years past there was an expectation that a company would invest in its employees, knowing that the company would reap the rewards of the employee's skills once up to speed. Nowadays, there is so much turnover that companies don't want to invest in human capital, only to see those humans take a better job elsewhere.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This is certainly true. I think it's a byproduct of (1) helicopter parents and (2) grade inflation. There are fewer consequences in school for being a screw-up, so kids don't learn how to be professional. Additionally, businesses don't want to train people anymore - they want employees who hit the ground running. In years past there was an expectation that a company would invest in its employees, knowing that the company would reap the rewards of the employee's skills once up to speed. Nowadays, there is so much turnover that companies don't want to invest in human capital, only to see those humans take a better job elsewhere.
    I would add ego centrism to your list. The feeling that the world should bend to fit my every need, schedule, or whim.


    Case in point, we had an employee give 2 weeks notice because she took another job. We hired and started to train her replacement immediately, and the new hire is up to speed. Now the leaving employee has been told that the training for her new job has been pushed back 3 weeks. She is now mad at us because we won't just let her keep working until then.
    Last edited by Jarid in Cedar; 05-10-2013 at 06:45 AM.
    “Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.”
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    I would add ego centrism to your list. The feeling that the world should bend to fit my every need, schedule, or whim.


    Case in point, we had an employee give 2 weeks notice because she took another job. We hired and started to train her replacement immediately, and the new hire is up to speed. Now the leaving employee has been told that the training for her new job has been pushed back 3 weeks. She is now mad at us because we won't just let her keep working until then.
    I think this is a symptom of helicopter parents. Most college kids these days have never had a real job.

  21. #81
    It's a symptom of society.

    Kids aren't held to a standard, aren't punished, they're just told showing up is enough.

    In sports, school etc there are participation medals instead of medals for winning.

    Society has decided everything should be warm and fuzzy, forgetting the real world is rarely either.

    Society needs to change. The softer side of sears approach isn't working.

  22. #82
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I told my students that their exam starts at 8:30AM tomorrow morning. If they're not there by 8:45, they may not present the exam. I used to have this problem, but I no longer give makeup exams unless they produce Sloan Peterson's grandma's cadaver or show me the stump from a severed limb. I make intercollegiate athletes take their exams BEFORE their road trips. If you miss a quiz, lump it. If you forgot to do your homework? Absent. I see you texting in class? Absent. Forgot your textbook? Absent. (keep in mind that the bulk of what I teach are skills courses, so the book is essential). Your phone rings in class? I get to answer it.

    Before I did all of these things, a good 1/10 of any class could be spent fielding exception questions and/or interrupted by phone calls.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  23. #83
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    It's a symptom of society.

    Kids aren't held to a standard, aren't punished, they're just told showing up is enough.

    In sports, school etc there are participation medals instead of medals for winning.

    Society has decided everything should be warm and fuzzy, forgetting the real world is rarely either.

    Society needs to change. The softer side of sears approach isn't working.
    I disagree. There's plenty of competition out there still. They typically don't give participation trophies after puberty, and even before then, there are always stars, MVPs, and the kid that you want on your team--kids still understand this. Also, for boys, the video game networks are complete hierarchies of competence with rankings on every little thing that someone can do well. Some are good at 1st-person shooters, others at strategy games, others at sports, still others at racing ones.

    Schools are still meritocracies in high school, but in elementary schoo, the resources dedicated to mentally-retarded children and their presence in regular classes, while stellar for them and their progress, does create imbalances that didn't use to exist, and does impact expectations for acceptable classroom behavior in some settings. I can remember how unfair it felt in elementary school when the special-ed kids would come back to class for writing practice right before lunch, and their bad behavior would make us all, daily, suffer through silent lunch. Now, those same class of kids are in my daughter's classes all day long, and the teacher spends an inordinate amount of time working with them, disciplining them, and giving them the extra help that they need since no child can be left behind, no matter the consequences to those out in front. The effect I have seen on the kids who don't suffer from mental disabilities is one of learning doldrums. They are rarely challenged, so unless they are self-starters (which I don't think is always innate, but can be a combination of nature/nurture), then there are few who will rise above the level of expectation set for them (which is abysmally low thanks to accrediting bodies like SACS [the Sith Lords of Academia] working in cahoots with politicians and the education industry). My daughter, a bright 5th-grader, told me last week that she's not allowed to bring her textbook home or read ahead in the chapters because, "We might read something that isn't a Standard." It's not society that has changed as much as we've been altered, slowly, by the insidious hand of the accrediting bodies and their Ed.D.-sporting pedagogues (who almost universally insist on being called "Dr.") who seek to tell us what 'best practices' are even as the ship is sinking.

    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  24. #84
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    I would add ego centrism to your list. The feeling that the world should bend to fit my every need, schedule, or whim.


    Case in point, we had an employee give 2 weeks notice because she took another job. We hired and started to train her replacement immediately, and the new hire is up to speed. Now the leaving employee has been told that the training for her new job has been pushed back 3 weeks. She is now mad at us because we won't just let her keep working until then.
    I agree. I regularly have students come to me at the end of the semester when I haven't seen them since week 8 and who become upset with me because I won't give them an F in a class instead of a UW. They will gripe and complain about me hurting their scholarship, but when I explain that they earned the grade and that it's fraud to do otherwise unless they finish the course, they call me unkind things (some of which are nonetheless accurate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    This is certainly true. I think it's a byproduct of (1) helicopter parents and (2) grade inflation. There are fewer consequences in school for being a screw-up, so kids don't learn how to be professional. Additionally, businesses don't want to train people anymore - they want employees who hit the ground running. In years past there was an expectation that a company would invest in its employees, knowing that the company would reap the rewards of the employee's skills once up to speed. Nowadays, there is so much turnover that companies don't want to invest in human capital, only to see those humans take a better job elsewhere.
    The breakdown of discipline in the schools is a complex thing. I noticed that things changed greatly once corporal punishment was off the table during my sophomore year, but that's another topic entirely. I've seen my own employer not want to hire certain classes of applicants because "they'll just go somewhere else in two years" which really does happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I think this is a symptom of helicopter parents. Most college kids these days have never had a real job.
    Most of my students have never ever worked. EVER. When I was a kid in suburban Atlanta in the late 80's/early 90's, we all had jobs unless we were playing a sport. The crew at the McDonald's where I worked was 65% classmates, 30% trailer-park dwellers, and 5% retirees wanting to make extra scratch.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  25. #85
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I have a section on "Professionalism and Respect" in my syllabi that addresses things like informality, tardiness, texting during class, and other distracting/unprofessional behaviors. It specifically says that my insistence that these be avoided is training for the professional world.

    I've had three or four other teachers adopt the paragraph for their own syllabi. Like everything else on the syllabus, it doesn't really sink it, but at least I have recourse when I ask a student to modify his/her behavior.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  26. #86
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I have a section on "Professionalism and Respect" in my syllabi that addresses things like informality, tardiness, texting during class, and other distracting/unprofessional behaviors. It specifically says that my insistence that these be avoided is training for the professional world.

    I've had three or four other teachers adopt the paragraph for their own syllabi. Like everything else on the syllabus, it doesn't really sink it, but at least I have recourse when I ask a student to modify his/her behavior.
    Can you post that section? You shared it once before, and I meant to use it, but it slipped my mind.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  27. #87
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think most of this discussion is just "get off my lawn" griping about kids today.
    Yeah, and I try to avoid that. I do think the millennials are an interesting phenomenon.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #88
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think most of this discussion is just "get off my lawn" griping about kids today.
    I believe that I have a different perspective than your average curmudgeon. My job is dealing with them daily, so, like anyone, I value my anecdotal experience across 15 years of teaching higher than perhaps I should. But, I also recognize a fundamental change in this generation. I knew narcissist as a kid. They were an annoying minority. No longer.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  29. #89
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Higher Education Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    No, you are right - there is a fundamental change. There's one every generation, which is why every generation's old people ask what's wrong with the kids today.
    True that. Every generational shift is interesting. I think that members of the older generation (that means us) have to understand and be realistic about the rising one. In law firms like mine we are interested in succession plans and are always trying to bring younger lawyers into the fold. It is clear to us that today's young lawyers are looking for something much different than we were. Trying to change them is pointless. We have to figure out how to work with their worldview.

    For example, the data are showing that Millennials are generally not interested in what we consider "paying dues," or starting at the bottom, doing the grunt work and moving up. (My own anecdotal experience supprts this.) There are exceptions. It's just part of the landscape and we're making an mistake if we don't recognize it. In my humble opinion, of course.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 05-11-2013 at 09:48 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #90
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Higher Education Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Funny, no sooner had I posted than I read this from Elder Packer while preparing a Sunday School lesson: "This trend to more noise, more excitement, more contention, less restraint, less dignity, less formality is not coincidental nor innocent nor harmless."
    I think my generation's coarser than my Father's was. My kids' generation is coarser than mine. (Is coarser a word?) I think this is undeniable. I don't think it's a good trend.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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