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Thread: The Official Civil War Thread

  1. #31
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is a strong presentation on the role of slavery in the Confederacy's decision to secede and fight.

    https://www.facebook.com/prageru/vid...8674905842027/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #32
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ngton-monument

    but I can’t believe that the white supremacists, small and feeble as their movement is, would disappear if all of the old Confederate statues were taken down. If anything, that would give them a fillip of energy, a recruitment tool. The best response to white supremacists is to let them march and let them speak — then ridicule and marginalize them. This isn’t hard: They’re already ridiculous and marginal. Civil War statues may be beloved by white supremacists, but they are a kind of speech, and the antidote to bad speech is more speech. Don’t care for a statue of Robert E. Lee? Fine. I don’t either. Let’s recontextualize it. Let’s put up a statue of Harriet Tubman next to it.

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ngton-monument
    Freakonomics talked about the KKK once where they said the best way our country marginalized them was through media like comic books and cartoons (making them the villian).
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    This is a strong presentation on the role of slavery in the Confederacy's decision to secede and fight.

    https://www.facebook.com/prageru/vid...8674905842027/
    Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.

  4. #34
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    I'm good with that. I do have a question though... what about crazy horse? What about the statue of Brigham young? Both those were in open rebellion against the USA?

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    Neither of those are supported by tax money.

    I'm fine with private displays. That's First Amendment.

  5. #35
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    By the way, I feel that LA Ute's prescience in creating this thread in 2013 should not go unnoticed.

    His crystal ball has no limit.

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.
    Important point. Not everybody in the north was a saint, and not all of the north's motives were saintly. But the right side won.

    But I can't stand it when fans of the south try to paint their cause as noble, or solely about states' rights. Then there is the depiction of Lincoln as a terrible villain or dictator. It's amazing how many people still believe that.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-16-2017 at 11:26 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Important point. Not everybody in the north was a saint, and not all of the north's motives were saintly. But the right side won.

    But I can't stand it when fans of the south try to paint their cause as noble, or solely about states' rights. Then there is the depiction of Lincoln as a terrible villain or dictator. It's amazing how many people still believe that.
    Very, very well said. I agree completely.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-16-2017 at 11:26 AM.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    ......He actually said today where will this stop? Because Jefferson and Washington owned salves so they could be next.

    There is just no way to state how completely off his rocker Trump is.


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    It already happened in New Orleans. Right? In fact, there's a number of petitions around the country to remove the names of slaveholders to public schools, currency, etc..... It's early, but, it will gain traction as time marches on. Having said that, I've spent most of my adult life in the south and have no problem at all moving these statues to museums. But, it's naive to think it will stop with confederate leaders/soldiers. Andrew Jackson & James Madison are already on the chopping block.

    I visited Seattle this summer and there's a statue of Lenin in one of their quirkier neighborhoods. The leader of the bolshevik revolution has outlasted Lee.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.
    Robert E. Lee and Secession:

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/flat...sion-t410.html
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.
    Lee made his bones in the Mexican American war. He might be the greatest General our country has produced, (there are barracks named for him at west point). He was also a us citizen. He was presidential pardoned. He has a place in our history. It's not as simple as he committed rebellion.

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.
    There are two main myths regarding the ACW, "the treasured values" of the North and "the lost cause" of the South:

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/flat...-am-t3292.html
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  12. #42
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Lee made his bones in the Mexican American war. He might be the greatest General our country has produced, (there are barracks named for him at west point). He was also a us citizen. He was presidential pardoned. He has a place in our history. It's not as simple as he committed rebellion.

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    There's no question he was a extraordinary man and, I think, a fine human being. But he is remembered now, and has his place in history, because he led the Army of Northern Virginia against the Union. There is no getting around that. The history of how he got to that point is indeed interesting and quite tragic, in the classical sense. I'm not saying he was not a great leader, or that in his mind his motives were not honorable. He simply made the wrong choice. I don't think he deserves to have his statue up in public places of honor. He belongs in a museum.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.
    There's the grade-school versions, which are the North fighting to free slaves, and in the South, "protecting our honor", states rights, etc.

    Grown ups learn it's a more complex issue.

    Curiously, for Lincoln, before the war he wanted it to be about states rights, tariffs, etc, because those items are more negotiable, slavery less so. Southern revisionists today maintain is was 90% about tariffs and states rights, but exactly none of the articles of Secession mention tariffs, and they all refer to slavery.

    The minor role of Union General Benjamin Butler is a fascinating read, and reveals the stresses on - and fascinating decision making paralysis from - Lincoln as war became imminent. Butler also invented a novel legal concept that is widely used today.

    Eventually, Lincoln concluded it was about slavery, he gave the Gettysburg address, and it was "war on!".

    The number of statutes to Confederate War heroes in the South is as much about resentment against Yankee carpetbaggers, the need to instill via Jim Crow laws social dominance over freed blacks using worship of pro-slavery "heroes", and the vague threat that "the South will rise again".

    While conservatives and white supremacists lament the lack of progress in achievement among blacks, they don't mention the impressive multi-generational persistence of virulently racist social practices, like the OU fraternity "tradition" of singing that horribly racist song. (If this is what is happening at a respected institution of higher learning - you know, the "leaders of tomorrow" - imagine the corresponding traditions at less lofty social institutions.)
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 08-16-2017 at 10:50 PM.

  14. #44
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    While conservatives and white supremacists lament the lack of progress in achievement among blacks, they don't mention the impressive multi-generational persistence of virulently racist social practices, like the OU fraternity "tradition" of singing that horribly racist song. (If this is what is happening at a respected institution of higher learning - you know, the "leaders of tomorrow" - imagine the corresponding traditions at less lofty social institutions.)
    Which conservatives?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Which conservatives?

    Doesn't matter.

    We're a binary country. Nuance & a persons body of work throughout their life is meaningless. You're either good or evil. I would think you'd see the last few days of this thread on Lee as evidence of that.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  16. #46
    Last year I read A. Lincoln by Ronald C White, Jr. I thought it was well researched and written. It certainly went beyond high school civics in discussing the nuances of the issues of the time and how Lincoln handled them both before being elected and as POTUS. While I had always admired Lincoln, after reading the book I was even more impressed and grateful that he was POTUS during those pivotal years.

  17. #47
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    What Do We Say About Decent Men Who Died for a Wicked Cause?

    https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/08...-wicked-cause/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    What Do We Say About Decent Men Who Died for a Wicked Cause?

    https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/08...-wicked-cause/
    Excellent read. I will keep reading the articles you tag as long as you keep tagging them.

  19. #49
    So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices because of how they interpreted the Law?
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  20. #50
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices because of how they interpreted the Law?
    I don't think so. He didn't wage war against the United States. And the country is not dotted with his statue, even in places that were not even part of that war.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices because of how they interpreted the Law?
    Taney deserves to have his statue removed just for writing the Dred Scott decision.

    Maryland can replace it with Thurgood Marshall, who was from MD.

  22. #52
    A letter written by Robert E. Lee on the subject of slavery, dated December 27, 1856:

    http://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.htm

    After the Civil War Lee did not want to fly the Confederate flag or have any memorials.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  23. #53
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Here's what Robert E. Lee thought about Confederate monuments


    "As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that, however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt, in the present condition of the country, would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor....I think it wiser…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered."
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-18-2017 at 06:28 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't think so. He didn't wage war against the United States. And the country is not dotted with his statue, even in places that were not even part of that war.
    Well if you read the article it was taken down last night

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  25. #55
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Well if you read the article it was taken down last night

    Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
    I think that goes a bit too far, although I get it. I personally draw the line at Confederate war heroes.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Taney deserves to have his statue removed just for writing the Dred Scott decision......

    But why stop there.

    Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

    I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  27. #57
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    But why stop there.

    Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

    I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.
    Like I said, I think removing statues should be limited to Confederate heroes. They are in a special category.

    The statue of Lenin should come down too.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    But why stop there.

    Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

    I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.
    Do we have statues to those judges? And if so, were they placed to be a reminder that this people need to always remember they are marginalized by society and the State? That slippery slope argument is silly.

    And the Lenin statues misunderstood. After the fall of the Soviet Union the statue was found in a junkyard in Eastern Europe and was brought to Seattle by a private donor and it sits on private land. Various times during the year it gets dressed up in silly clothes (eg. Easter dress and bonnet for Easter, etc). It is currently for sale if you are so offended by it that you want it gone.

  29. #59
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Official Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    And the Lenin statues misunderstood. After the fall of the Soviet Union the statue was found in a junkyard in Eastern Europe and was brought to Seattle by a private donor and it sits on private land. Various times during the year it gets dressed up in silly clothes (eg. Easter dress and bonnet for Easter, etc). It is currently for sale if you are so offended by it that you want it gone.
    I didn't know the story behind it, so thanks for that. Looks like the statue is indeed on private land, but in a public place. I'm not sure that would solve the controversy over the Confederate statues, so I'm not sure it solves this one either. You seem to have little patience for anyone being offended by the Lenin statue. Are you not offended by it? Do you see why anybody might find it offensive, or maybe just wrong? Anyway, I think some public-spirited tech billionaire should buy it for the $250,000 asking price and move it to a museum.

    https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kiro7...mont/593995414
    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-19-2017 at 03:18 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #60
    I see the Lenin statue as a cool memento celebrating the fall of the USSR.

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