Kansas St - S. Dak, UTSA, Louis TechOriginally Posted by Scorcho
OK St - CMU, Cent Ark, UTSA
Baylor - SMU, Rice, Lamar
Penn St - Temple, Buffalo, SDSU Army
NCSTATe - Troy, E Kentucky, Old Dominon, South alabama
Kansas St - S. Dak, UTSA, Louis Tech
OK St - CMU, Cent Ark, UTSA
Baylor - SMU, Rice, Lamar
Penn St - Temple, Buffalo, SDSU Army
NCSTATe - Troy, E Kentucky, Old Dominon, South alabama
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
If some Oregon fan came in here running smack, I'm sure we'd all be talking about that right now. I don't think this thread proves Ute fans are secretly wanting to continue the rivalry game.
I agree it drives the ratings. That's mostly a BYU fan thing at this point. Utah fans won't be wishing they had BYU on the schedule when we're playing Oregon, Stanford, USC, UCLA, etc. But you can be sure BYU fans are missing that Utah game when they're playing a bunch of FCS teams mixed in with several bye weeks at the end of every season.
Last edited by utefan; 02-26-2015 at 10:24 PM.
Two points regarding BYU that haven't really been discussed:
1. We're talking about scheduling for 2019 and beyond. How will BYU be considered then? It's quite possible that they will be seen in a lesser light, as the P5 conference teams benefit from their greater independence and resources.
2. What is the recruiting advantage to playing BYU over a P5 or top G5 school in a talent rich state such as Texas or Florida. None.
Speak for yourself. I'm betting about half the Utah fanbase wishes to still play BYU. Why else would Chris Hill feel the need to even entertain the idea? I'm betting he heard some backlash when the current two year hiatus was announced.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
I want to keep playing BYU, as long as it is in September.
the rivalry is like gay marriage. It means a lot to older fans; younger fans think 'what is the big deal.' Fewer and fewer fans will remember end of season rivalry games with a conference championship on the line as co-equals (more or less). Younger fans only know the difference between Pac 12 and independence. As we play them in Sept. sporadically, it will have less and less significance.
...and never in consecutive years.
Half of me wants to keep playing them annually and the other half doesn't. I'm getting kind of tired of thinking about it.
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I love this. I'm guessing to get it off the ground, it would have to be announced now but the first "assignments" wouldn't take effect for five or six years, to allow the participating schools to get their schedules set up. For instance, if Utah were not hosting AND it falls in a year where we have 5 conference games on the road - first of all, that would suck - second of all we'd have to know now so we can at least make sure we're playing 6H/6R games that year. There's got to be a way that Uncle Larry could tell the Selection Committee "Hey, these six PAC schools HAVE TO host in year one." Maybe that solves it.
Along similar lines...
I've wanted to see an agreement among the P5 conferences that would mandate that every P5 school has to schedule a H-&-H series with one other team from each of the other four P5s within a 10-year time frame. If you haven't done that by the 10-year mark, you're ineligible for the playoff (which will be AT LEAST 8 teams by then) or maybe from the post season altogether. We've got to find a way to encourage a lot more crossover among the P5s.
This is totally irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make, which consists of non-con skeds AFTER 2015 (a point you highlighted in responding to my post). Why would I argue 2015 non-con schedules? We're fine there.
Vandy is at Georgia Tech in 2016 and has a H-H with Kansas State starting in 2017. It also has a single open date in 2016 and 2017.
Mississippi State has some work to do near term (open date in 2016, three open dates in 2017) but follows that up with H-H covering the next six years against Kansas State, NC State and Arizona (hmmmm ... another Pac-12 school)
Ole Miss has a neutral site game against Florida State in 2016 and starts a H-H with Cal the following year. It has deals signed with Georgia Tech and Wake Forest as well.
Last edited by SoCalPat; 02-27-2015 at 09:20 AM.
Once again, nobody here should care about what others are doing 2015 non-con. A lot of those games were signed before the CFP was instituted, and many schools are standing pat. That's their problem. But all of these schools have at least one P5 scheduled in the coming years, and most have multiple P5s already lined up.
So what happened with us? Is it:
1) We are not good negotiators.
2) We want a weak OOC schedule for strategic reasons (to make bowl games).
3) It's musical chairs, and we are the last team standing.
4) We haven't figured out yet what we are doing with BYU, and that messes everything up. Are they our "P5"? Are we trying to play them annually? Are we trying to wean ourselves off the rivalry? Do we want play BYU and a real P5 in the same season?
If #4 is holding us up, we need to make a decision and go with it. It's lose-lose-lose. If we play BYU instead of a P5, we haven't fixed our P5 problem. If we only play a P5, we get ripped for ending a longtime glorious series. If we play both, our odds of making bowl games goes down.
Alright... give me a year when we should care.
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
I've said it before, but if it was actually about football, the competition on the field, I would be fine with the rivalry, but if it is about religion, I'm just not interested.
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
[QUOTE=sancho;52541]
2) We want a weak OOC schedule for strategic reasons (to make bowl games).
and to keep a coaching job
I'm concerned starting with 2016. That's three years after everyone knew the CFP was coming and what they would emphasize. It's also our first year under the CFP without a P5 on the schedule.
How about this? Zach Lassiter was our point man on a lot of scheduling matters while he was at Utah. He was the one breaking scheduling news on Twitter, and we were getting some intriguing non-con games (Pittsburgh, Iowa State to name at least two). I don't know if we've really filled that vacuum. I also might be overestimating his role in scheduling. If this fits, then No. 1 is clearly in play, and probably No. 3.
BYU has eight Pac-12 schools signed to deals in the next six years (Over the previous three and the next six, it will have played or completed a series against every Pac-12 team except Oregon). That means a lot of schools have a vested interest in whether or not BYU is worthy of P5 status. I don't think bestowing that status upon them makes them a threat to join a P5 league -- they're always a threat to join once a league is willing to get past their unique demands, most notably, no-Sunday play and BYUTV. If BYU has P5 status, this discussion as it pertains to Utah goes away entirely. I'm very curious as to where the league stands on this matter. It's a question that should be put to rest, but I don't think it's ever been addressed.
Well stated. There isn't much of a business case for keeping the old rivalry game going. There's a case based on tradition and emotion.
I will stand by and wait for Pat to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
You might be. He was the head of the ticket office, so his role in announcing schedules might have been about sales. But I am not sure. He is a very good guy, BTW.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Nah, Sancho's right. I don't put much stock into the difficulty placed in reaching a bowl game by playing a P5 and BYU (we did it in our first year with John Hays as our QB). But as I've said, if our league views BYU as P5, that cleans up a lot of messes right there. Only the insecure amongst us would worry about BYU given P5 status. It doesn't put them any closer to being in a P5 league and their deals as an independent will prevent them from ever making a serious run at a playoff.Well stated. There isn't much of a business case for keeping the old rivalry game going. There's a case based on tradition and emotion.
I will stand by and wait for Pat to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.
I'll say this again...
The Pac 12 plays 9 conference games, plus a conference championship game. That's 10 P5 games, without even considering out of conference games.
The SEC plays 8 conference games and a championship game. They need to play an extra P5 school out of conference just to equal the Pac 12's conference schedule.
The Big 12 plays 9 conference games but doesn't have a championship game. They need to play an extra P5 team (and it needs to be a very good one) out of conference just to equal the Pac 12 champion's conference schedule.
If you start adding P5 teams to the Pac 12 out of conference schedule, it puts the Pac 12 even further ahead. You don't have to add P5 teams to the Pac 12 out of conference schedule just to keep up.
The disparity that exists between league schedules cannot be ignored and I would like to see uniform guidelines amongst the leagues as it pertains to league scheduling. However, I think there's danger in resting on what you have in league play and not challenging yourself in the non-con. There's more ambition in the SEC's 8+1 than in the Pac-12's 9+0, because it guarantees a non-conference road game every other year. We don't have enough evidence to suggest one way or another, but I think such a game can be a difference maker between Nos. 4 and 5, or being in an NY6 bowl vs. the Alamo Bowl.
Uniform guidelines in league play would be nice, and the Pac 12 has been lobbying for it. But as things are today, the number of out of conference P5 games is not as important as the total number of P5 games on a schedule.
There's no point in getting worked up because the SEC or Big 12 teams play an extra P5 team out of conference. The Pac 12 will still play just as many P5 teams as the SEC and Big 12.
To your other points from this thread...
There is no reason whatsoever to schedule BYU, other than history and emotion.
They're not a P5 team, so the playoff committee won't give us any credit for beating them. And it doesn't matter if the ACC or even the Pac 12 says they're a P5 team. Until the SEC says they are, then the playoff committee will continue to treat them as a G5 team.
So if we beat BYU, we get no credit. But we'd be their super bowl every year, so we'll see their best effort of the year. On the chance that they beat us, the playoff committee will treat it as if we lost to Air Force or Fresno State.
I'd rather play Houston, Central Florida, Arkansas State, Memphis, Cincinnati, or any other school in a hot recruiting area.
We'll have to agree to disagree on several of your points, but if you really think some of the schools you listed are "hot recruiting areas", I don't know what to tell you. You know what's another hot recruiting area? The state of Utah. And we cannot neglect our own backyard. The Northern Illinois H-H ranks high on a very short list of stupid things Hill has done to the football program.
Utah is a hot recruiting area, and the Utes are already on the news every week in Utah.
We need to get some hype in Florida, Texas, Ohio, and the deep south.
If we play those teams, we'll still be in the news in Utah those weeks. We don't have to play BYU to get on the news in Utah. We do have to play a Texas/Florida/Ohio team in order to get on their local news.
You want kids in Florida talking about the Utes? Go down there in a flashy new uniform and spank their local team. You want kids in Utah talking about the Utes? Beat USC/UCLA/Stanford/Oregon, while wearing flashy new uniforms.
We don't need BYU on the schedule. In fact, we're better off without playing them.
Last edited by utefan; 02-27-2015 at 10:42 AM.
I'm not subjecting the board to THAT debate again.
Welp...I'm just enjoying the back and forth on this topic. Just when I'm convinced that OOC strength really doesn't matter, then I read another post and become convinced that we'd be stupid to stop playing BYU altogether AND dumb down our schedule. Put a gun to my head and I honestly don't know which way I'd go with it. Good luck, Chris Hill.
The trick with playing BYU is that they are a funny gray-area team. It's true, they're not P5. You don't get P5 credit for scheduling and beating them. And I'm not talking "officially" or not (per the ACC, SEC, or whomever), I'm talking about their perception. They are not perceived to be part of the P5 + Notre Dame. They're just not.
The flip side is - and let's be real - they are also not perceived to be on the same level as Wyoming, Fresno State, and Louisiana Tech. They're just not. Beating them is not dismissed as easily as it is when we take down a San Jose State.
I still think it's a fun game and a fun rivalry. I also have to confess that I have not missed playing them as much as I thought I would. I mean, I'll admit, I haven't missed them at all. The Holy War used to be a crescendo after a conference season that was mostly cannon fodder. Now, every week is fun. Every week is a match up that would have been our marquee non-con game in the old days.
I don't really worry about the "let's not help them" angle. I don't care. I don't think Utah is so powerful and badass that we have much effect on BYU. So, if we don't play them again I probably won't miss them as much as I would have expected five years ago. If we do play them, I'll for sure tune in and love it and have a nervous stomach the whole week preceding like I always have. It's in my DNA at this point.
I want to see interesting non-con games (particularly with P5 schools) but I also want to go to bowls every year. I can see how those two can fight against each other for a program at Utah's current level.
Anyway...good discussion. Go Utes!
Yep.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
BYU is light years away from being considered a P5 team by the playoff committee.
People in this thread are saying the Utes with 9 or 10 P5 teams on the schedule isn't enough. What does BYU play, 3, 4, 5 per year?
Until they're playing 9 or 10 per year like everyone else, they won't be a P5 team in the eyes of the selection committee.
So while I agree they're not Fresno State to us Ute fans, they are Fresno State in the eyes of the selection committee. They're probably Fresno State to most fans around the nation besides Ute fans.
They're not as good as Boise, so they're not on that level. Fresno State is on that "good program, but not as good as Boise" level.
That's the problem with playing BYU. When we play them, they're a better team than usual. We're playing Boise but only getting credit for Air Force or Fresno State.
We'd actually be pretty foolish to continue playing them. There is literally no advantage to it.
If we don't play them and we play Memphis instead, the game will sell out just the same. And we'll have the added benefit of being on the news in Tennessee, where we have yet to recruit heavily.
It's time to cut bait. I realize BYU and their fans, biased media, and possibly even church leadership really want this game. I realize for BYU to be taken seriously they need to play a lot more P5 games, and this would help them out. But it's just foolish for us to give up so much, and risk giving up even more, for literally nothing in return.
If we schedule a G5 team, we don't want one that's going to play like a P5 team against us, only 40 miles away, and will alligator roll, hit out of bounds, and all the other nonsense BYU is notorious for against us. If we only get credit for beating Fresno State, then let's play someone who doesn't play us any different than Fresno State would.
Neither are we. Boise just won their third Fiesta Bowl. They really deserve their own classification. There should be P5, Boise, and G5.
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