The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

[NorthwestUteFan]

The rumor is that the church's internal data shows 80% of Millenials disagree with this new policy. If the Millenials are that far opposed to it, just imagine how much more opposed the younger generations will be (they will be nearly unanimous opposed). Lots of them know or are related to an lgbt person and realize they are exactly like they are. There seems to be a belief in the COB that gay people are criminal sex perverts, and not just ordinary people like everybody else. Besides, if marriage is only about sex will somebody please tell my wife?

We had three active families in our ward post on FB that they are taking a break from church for a few months over this new policy, and one is completely resigning. Another family (Young Men's President and RS Counselor) are also very upset and confused, and are unsure what lies in their future. This is an ENORMOUS blow to a smaller ward outside of the Jell-O belt to have almost 10% of the active, temple-attending, calling-fulfilling members suddenly walk away.

As of this morning an attorney in SLC has already processed 1400+ resignations during this year (1100+ of them since last Thursday) and he has well over 1000 Facebook confirmations of people who will join in a mass resignation event at Temple Square this coming Saturday.

And I saved the best for last. My wife's close friend told us this story. Her parents serve in a mission presidency (prob shouldn't publically say which mission, pm for more info). A mission companionship has been teaching a ~13 yr-old boy and his father. Last week they had a great discussion with them, and the father texted the missionaries the next day thanking them for a wonderful meeting.

The boy was scheduled to get baptized next week. The father is married to another man, and both of them support the boy getting baptized. This wasn't a problem until last Thursday.

On Friday the father texted the missionaries asking about the new policy. The missionaries had no idea what to do so they called the mission president. He told the missionaries they had to cancel the boy's baptism and stop teaching him. They didn't know what to do (because they are only a few years older than the boy), so the MP counselor (our friend's father) went with them.

The experience was horrible. The boy was devastated as were his dads. There are no good answers that don't point directly at irrational intolerance and a bigotry so deep that it extends to the innocent children.

My friend's father returned home to his wife and told her, "Let me know when we can be finished with this religion. I will not pay another single penny of tithing to support this organization."

[NorthwestUteFan]

Then again, perhaps they are doing these children a favor:

[UtahsMrSports]

The rumor is that the church's internal data shows 80% of Millenials disagree with this new policy. If the Millenials are that far opposed to it, just imagine how much more opposed the younger generations will be (they will be nearly unanimous opposed). Lots of them know or are related to an lgbt person and realize they are exactly like they are. There seems to be a belief in the COB that gay people are criminal sex perverts, and not just ordinary people like everybody else. Besides, if marriage is only about sex will somebody please tell my wife?

We had three active families in our ward post on FB that they are taking a break from church for a few months over this new policy, and one is completely resigning. Another family (Young Men's President and RS Counselor) are also very upset and confused, and are unsure what lies in their future. This is an ENORMOUS blow to a smaller ward outside of the Jell-O belt to have almost 10% of the active, temple-attending, calling-fulfilling members suddenly walk away.

As of this morning an attorney in SLC has already processed 1400+ resignations during this year (1100+ of them since last Thursday) and he has well over 1000 Facebook confirmations of people who will join in a mass resignation event at Temple Square this coming Saturday.

And I saved the best for last. My wife's close friend told us this story. Her parents serve in a mission presidency (prob shouldn't publically say which mission, pm for more info). A mission companionship has been teaching a ~13 yr-old boy and his father. Last week they had a great discussion with them, and the father texted the missionaries the next day thanking them for a wonderful meeting.

The boy was scheduled to get baptized next week. The father is married to another man, and both of them support the boy getting baptized. This wasn't a problem until last Thursday.

On Friday the father texted the missionaries asking about the new policy. The missionaries had no idea what to do so they called the mission president. He told the missionaries they had to cancel the boy's baptism and stop teaching him. They didn't know what to do (because they are only a few years older than the boy), so the MP counselor (our friend's father) went with them.

The experience was horrible. The boy was devastated as were his dads. There are no good answers that don't point directly at irrational intolerance and a bigotry so deep that it extends to the innocent children.

My friend's father returned home to his wife and told her, "Let me know when we can be finished with this religion. I will not pay another single penny of tithing to support this organization."

Another mass resignation! Cool! Maybe this one will cross that elusive double digit threshold!

[Ma'ake]

I think the church may end up clarifying the new policy. For example, I don't get why the consent of both parents doesn't clear the way for baby blessings, baptism, ordinations, and the rest.

Yep.

The good people who write the Handbook probably had no idea that equating SSM couples with Polygamous households was going to blow up like this.

My wife and son were discussing this issue Sunday, and my very discouraged wife kept re-iterating that this *feels* much like the Priesthood ban. Then she started reading a 1st Presidency letter from 1947 stating that interracial marriage was repugnant, etc. I had seen a letter from the same 1st Presidency from *1949* saying the ban wasn't policy, but a direct commandment from God.

So, in one of those occasional surreal moments, *I* started on a defense of the late 40s First Presidency, saying David O McKay was one of those signers, yet he was also one who kept asking about the policy, praying, re-thinking things. He died, but that process of reviewing, studying, and praying came to fruition in 1978.

So, I gave my wife a pep talk, got her off to church, and I went hiking, where I find my own Zen.

I stand by my original thesis in this thread. The wheels are turning. Slowly, haltingly. Hearts are being softened, questions are pondered, a path forward is looked for.

The biggest differences today are technology, and back in Utah in the late 20th century relatively few Utahns knew many black people. Everyone knows multiple gay people, whether they realize it or not. The theological path is more complex, the pressure is far broader, and changes in social understandings happen far more quickly in 2015.

(This is a huge issue for the Mormon leadership, but I'm glad they are the people they are, instead of the paranoid wing of the 7th Day Adventists, who believe the Second Coming is 2 or 3 years away, at most, preparing for an era where Catholics and other Christians imprison and possibly execute 7DA adherents because they didn't crumble and change the Sabbath to be Sunday. Sheesh.)

[Applejack]

I still think these cases will be fast tracked. There are enough of them, and they are not what this was intended for.

Sad to me that the church did this so poorly. If the handbook had just started with "In order to avoid creating conflict in the home,...." And why was there ever a need to say "must disavow"? If the case is going to the first presidency, then the first presidency can ask what they want to ask. There's no need to specify to bishops and stake presidents that anyone need disavow anything.

What is this fast track procedure? As I read the rule, there is no exception for kids. They can't even ask the first presidency until they are 18.

[tooblue]

The rumor is that the church's internal data shows 80% of Millenials disagree with this new policy. If the Millenials are that far opposed to it, just imagine how much more opposed the younger generations will be (they will be nearly unanimous opposed).

This is such a common type of refrain I read from you and others here in this forum. Why? I interact with millennials on a daily basis. They are not the “great hope” you suppose them to be. While they are "politically" more tolerant, they are far more irrationally strident than any previous generation I have encountered. With greater—or what one might call absolute—societal tolerance comes much less empathy. I witness this phenomenon daily. It's jarring, because I can see where one could imagine the opposite to be true. But that's just not the case. Remembering of course, gay marriage has been legal here for more than ten years.

And I agree with Ma'ake: the wheels are turning.

[LA Ute]

What is this fast track procedure? As I read the rule, there is no exception for kids. They can't even ask the first presidency until they are 18.

I am willing to bet that the rule's rigidity will be relaxed. How soon is anyone's guess but I hope it's soon.

[mUUser]

Bottom line is this new policy was totally unnecessary, came across as mean spirited, and has caused a lot of confusion, anger, sadness, doubt etc..... I'm hoping church leaders are wishing they had a do-over on this one. It's gotta go -- it's the right thing to do.

[chrisrenrut]

Bottom line is this new policy was totally unnecessary, came across as mean spirited, and has caused a lot of confusion, anger, sadness, doubt etc..... I'm hoping church leaders are wishing they had a do-over on this one. It's gotta go -- it's the right thing to do.

+1.

[LA Ute]

This is it. You don't get a 2nd chance to make a digital 1st impression. Once facebook, twitter, and various memes of different degrees of cleverness decided that this was about punishing children, it was about punishing children. No amount of next day "this is to protect families from discord" talk can erase that.

This could have been phrased and released in a way that would have caused 1/10th the reaction.

Ding-ding-ding-ding!

[NorthwestUteFan]

Another mass resignation! Cool! Maybe this one will cross that elusive double digit threshold!

The first one was bigger than my entire ward. I don't know how many people attended but the organizers had confirmation of over 250 "You're Fired" letters mailed to the church. But most of those people had already thought their way out of the church so the impact was probably minimal.

This time it is the active, temple recommend-holding members who are very upset and thinking about leaving and questioning whether they can continue to lend their good names to the organization.

Statistically everybody knows more lgbt people than they know left-handed people.

[SeattleUte]

The first one was bigger than my entire ward. I don't know how many people attended but the organizers had confirmation of over 250 "You're Fired" letters mailed to the church. But most of those people had already thought their way out of the church so the impact was probably minimal.

This time it is the active, temple recommend-holding members who are very upset and thinking about leaving and questioning whether they can continue to lend their good names to the organization.

Statistically everybody knows more lgbt people than they know left-handed people.

I never understood resignation. Why give credence to your record status in the Church?

[mUUser]

I never understood resignation. Why give credence to your record status in the Church?

Interesting question......and not sure any good answer exists. Perhaps people just don't want to be bugged anymore?

My parents haven't attended church in over 40 years, but still maintain their membership.

My mom, until recently, when her VT companion passed, was a visiting teacher during that time. But, that's all she did.

My dad, over the course of 40 years accepted a couple of callings that wouldn't require regular church attendance. For example, he directed the ward choir for a number of years. When the choir sang, he was at church. When they didn't. He wasn't at church.

They've also maintained HT'ers over the past 40 years, with their current HT'ers having visited for about 30 years now. Actually, the husband died this year, but his wife continues to visit them on her own.

Again, I'm not sure why my dad hasn't given up his membership. He's agnostic now. Every time there's a new HPGL, they always charge over to the house in an attempt to reactivate him. I've probably asked one of my best buddies who's in their ward to run interference with the HPGL a half-dozen times over the years. They just get too pushy.

Even if my dad wanted to attend church anymore, he couldn't. Simply to infirm to spend an hour or three at church. His time is short.

I think once my dad passes, my mom may return to church. I think she sometimes misses it.

Not sure why I even posted this as it doesn't answer your question.....just that church, or lack of it, works in different ways for different people.

[UtahsMrSports]

The first one was bigger than my entire ward. I don't know how many people attended but the organizers had confirmation of over 250 "You're Fired" letters mailed to the church. But most of those people had already thought their way out of the church so the impact was probably minimal.

This time it is the active, temple recommend-holding members who are very upset and thinking about leaving and questioning whether they can continue to lend their good names to the organization.

Statistically everybody knows more lgbt people than they know left-handed people.

Im not convinced that these mass resignation events draw much more than folks who are already long gone. I am not convinced that this will be the catastrophic event that the Dehlinites and Kellyites are hoping for/predicting. Was this handled well? obviously not ideally. Time will tell how it plays out.

[mUUser]

Im not convinced that these mass resignation events draw much more than folks who are already long gone.....

This one feels different to me because it goes after children. Children are off limits......

[chrisrenrut]

This one feels different to me because it goes after children. Children are off limits......

Based on my Facebook feed, most who are being most vocal about resigning are already disaffected. This includes a few relatives and close friends, and multiple more people I don't know who commented on their posts.

I would imagine that that those who are currently somewhat invovled in the church that are considering resigning may be doing so in a more quite, less public manner.

[LA Ute]

Based on my Facebook feed, most who are being most vocal about resigning are already disaffected. This includes a few relatives and close friends, and multiple more people I don't know who commented on their posts.

I would imagine that that those who are currently somewhat invovled in the church that are considering resigning may be doing so in a more quite, less public manner.

I was about to type a response but decided I honestly don't know what to say.

[SeattleUte]

Based on my Facebook feed, most who are being most vocal about resigning are already disaffected. This includes a few relatives and close friends, and multiple more people I don't know who commented on their posts.

I would imagine that that those who are currently somewhat invovled in the church that are considering resigning may be doing so in a more quite, less public manner.

And the people who are defending it would defend anything the gerontocracy did without question, as they are now demonstrating. It's done to protect the same sex families from discord? GMAFB. They don't care about that; it's what they want. An 18 year old has to repudiate his parents' marriage as an abomination; how mature do people think an 18 year old is? You who defend them just want to be led by the nose.

Dostoevsky could be pretty pious, and he spoke about Christ ecstatically but didn't like church or priests. I totally get that. My view of religion is no secret, and the thing by far that I find most distasteful about religion is the authority. Dostoevsky's analogy of people willingly herded like cattle has always resonated with me. There are good things about the LDS Church; the worst thing are those old white men who encourage their deification. Sterling McMurrin said they treat the members like babies, and I totally agree. Something about human nature wants that, but I didn't get that gene.

[chrisrenrut]

And the people who are defending it would defend anything the gerontocracy did without question, as they are now demonstrating. It's done to protect the same sex families from discord? GMAFB. They don't care about that; it's what they want. An 18 year old has to repudiate his parents' marriage as an abomination; how mature do people think an 18 year old is? You who defend them just want to be led by the nose.

Dostoevsky could be pretty pious, and he spoke about Christ ecstatically but didn't like church or priests. I totally get that. My view of religion is no secret, and the thing by far that I find most distasteful about religion is the authority. Dostoevsky's analogy of people willingly herded like cattle has always resonated with me. There are good things about the LDS Church; the worst thing are those old white men who encourage their deification. Sterling McMurrin said they treat the members like babies, and I totally agree. Something about human nature wants that, but I didn't get that gene.

Wow, I had no idea you felt this way! It's great to see you take this rare opportunity. You shouldn't be so demure in your opinions on religion.

[LA Ute]

Wow, I had no idea you felt this way! It's great to see you take this rare opportunity. You shouldn't be so demure in your opinions on religion.

Crazy Uncle SU chrisrenrut

[Sullyute]

The first one was bigger than my entire ward. I don't know how many people attended but the organizers had confirmation of over 250 "You're Fired" letters mailed to the church. But most of those people had already thought their way out of the church so the impact was probably minimal.

This time it is the active, temple recommend-holding members who are very upset and thinking about leaving and questioning whether they can continue to lend their good names to the organization.

Statistically everybody knows more lgbt people than they know left-handed people.

Hopefully the Church will go after those wierdos next.

[Rocker Ute]

The first one was bigger than my entire ward. I don't know how many people attended but the organizers had confirmation of over 250 "You're Fired" letters mailed to the church. But most of those people had already thought their way out of the church so the impact was probably minimal.

This time it is the active, temple recommend-holding members who are very upset and thinking about leaving and questioning whether they can continue to lend their good names to the organization.

Statistically everybody knows more lgbt people than they know left-handed people.

More than 10% of the population is LGBT?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/am...y-lesbian.aspx

http://www.everydayhealth.com/health...fthanders.aspx

[chrisrenrut]

Crazy Uncle SU chrisrenrut

I hope SU doesn't feel oppressed, or that I'm being intolerant of his opinion. If so, we can make the Unbeleiver thread his safe zone.

[LA Ute]

I hope SU doesn't feel oppressed, or that I'm being intolerant of his opinion. If so, we can make the Unbeleiver thread his safe zone.

He's impressively resilient. He'll be fine.


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[Rocker Ute]

More than 10% of the population is LGBT?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/am...y-lesbian.aspx

http://www.everydayhealth.com/health...fthanders.aspx

I should mention that you all know me, your resident flamboyant left-hander. Societal pressures that tried to force me into using backward scissors, caused me to perpetually have ink on the side of my hand, forced me to shake with my less dominant hand by tradition and left me unable to borrow a friend's golf clubs to learn how to golf. These and many other things have left me isolated and alone, damaged by your perpetual insensitivity.

[LA Ute]

I should mention that you all know me, your resident flamboyant left-hander. Societal pressures that tried to force me into using backward scissors, caused me to perpetually have ink on the side of my hand, forced me to shake with my less dominant hand by tradition and left me unable to borrow a friend's golf clubs to learn how to golf. These and many other things have left me isolated and alone, damaged by your perpetual insensitivity.

I feel your pain. It is well known that I am an unrepentant southpaw. I throw, shoot and kick a ball right-handed, however. Multidextrous is my category.


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[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I too am a lefty. Unfortunately, several years of shock therapy was never fully able to cure me of my disorder and really turned me into a bit of an ambidextrous Frankenstein. I throw left handed, but bat better from a righty stance. I dribble and shoot most dominantly with my right. Running and cycling, my sports of choice in my old age seems to trade off with each stride.

[Scorcho]

the difficult thing for me is that I have a teenager who is already struggling with her testimony. When her non-LDS friends talk to her about this she shy's away from the topic.

At one time she had pride and confidence in being LDS, but that isn't as apparent any longer. When she tried to talk to me about it, I was stumped, I had nothing for her.

[LA Ute]

the difficult thing for me is that I have a teenager who is already struggling with her testimony. When her non-LDS friends talk to her about this she shy's away from the topic.

At one time she had pride and confidence in being LDS, but that isn't as apparent any longer. When she tried to talk to me about it, I was stumped, I had nothing for her.

This is a very tough problem. When adults with strong testimonies struggle to defend the policy (it just isn't easy), how can we expect teens to defend it well and feel comfortable doing it? My college freshman daughter is doing OK so far, but tells me she had more flak about being LDS in one day -- the day this broke -- than she had encountered in her entire life up to then (and she'd had quite a bit in high school). What puzzles me about this whole thing is that the church seemed unprepared for the public reaction.

All that said, John Dehlin is a viper.


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[Diehard Ute]

You have to wonder what role, if any, all this played in the ruling from the juvenile judge who ordered a foster child be removed from a gay couple this week.


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