questions after game 1

[roseparkutes]

wow this game was wild. what are your guys questions and biggest concerns? my question is how can the running game improve? and are the DB's that bad?

[NorthwestUteFan]

I think much of the running woes go back to the O line. When they actually busted the holes, Poole and Williams were decent out in open space.

Also, those boring runs up the middle really opened up the passing game. Travis Wilson needs to get better at picking up the blitzes, but he did make them pay a few times last night.

Corners and Safeties need a bit of help. I am not sold on Sharrief Shah as a coach (although he is a great recruiter and motivator), but this type of D needs the corners and safeties to be very active and always in the proper position. Eric Rowe was solid, but he can't do it all alone.

I liked the play of the DEs, and even Palamo was a Beast.

Playcalling was above average for most of the game, with a few WTFs. The clock killing drives in the 4th quarter were nervewracking but ultimately they were necessary (including the three plays up the middle from the 1).

Dres and Murphy had two catches each. We need to hit them more often. Fitzgerald and Denham came up huge when the D keyed on Dale's and Flipper's kids.

TW needs a more practice to improve accuracy, and he should NEVER have a ball batted down (especially by a 5'10" Safety).

[Jarid in Cedar]

I think the running game was pretty bland, we rarely tried to get to the edge. We are not Alabama or Stanford. I don't think we should ever feel like we can just line up and push good players off the line.

My biggest concern was the play of the safties, esp Rowe. He seemed a step late too frequently.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

One concern I had was watching McGill's effort. This seemed most obvious during Keeton's TD scramble to the corner of the endzone. McGill was getting blocked by the WR and I didn't see any evidence of McGill trying to fit off the block. He seemed perfectly content to watch Keeton run past him and nearly got taken out by a pursuing Palamo who nearly saved the touchdown. If he was given that amount of effort on every play, it's no wonder their receivers always had 5 yards of empty space.

[Mormon Red Death]

I think the running game was pretty bland, we rarely tried to get to the edge. We are not Alabama or Stanford. I don't think we should ever feel like we can just line up and push good players off the line.

My biggest concern was the play of the safties, esp Rowe. He seemed a step late too frequently.

Well he was lined up 40 yards off the ball

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[UteBeliever aka Port]

One concern I had was watching McGill's effort. This seemed most obvious during Keeton's TD scramble to the corner of the endzone. McGill was getting blocked by the WR and I didn't see any evidence of McGill trying to fit off the block. He seemed perfectly content to watch Keeton run past him and nearly got taken out by a pursuing Palamo who nearly saved the touchdown. If he was given that amount of effort on every play, it's no wonder their receivers always had 5 yards of empty space.

He wasn't the only one. Our safety stood there and watched.

[LA Ute]

He wasn't the only one. Our safety stood there and watched.

Stuff like this will be obvious on the game film and I've got to think it will be addressed pretty, um, vigorously. (I'm having flashbacks of my high school coach screaming at us during film review.)

[NorthwestUteFan]

They need to transpose the effort of McGill and Walker on that play against the almighty effort that Palamo put into the chase, and then show them the game film of RoJo at the goal line knocking the ball out of the hand of the ball carrier and through the endzone for a touchback. (Was that RoJo or Stevenson Sylvester? Either was it was a badass play).

And the same thing was feasibly there for the taking for #1 and #15.

Looking at the replay it is apparent that 1) Palamo has some serious wheels for a DE, 2) Walker had an easy play at the pylon but pulled up short (dude, you are a SR. Pretend like you belong on the field!), and 3) McGill, who is FAR bigger than the USU WR, didn't even need to get all the way through his block, he only needed to push his man outside to force Keeton back inside and into what would have been a devastating hit by Palamo.

[OrangeUte]

They need to transpose the effort of McGill and Walker on that play against the almighty effort that Palamo put into the chase, and then show them the game film of RoJo at the goal line knocking the ball out of the hand of the ball carrier and through the endzone for a touchback. (Was that RoJo or Stevenson Sylvester? Either was it was a badass play).

And the same thing was feasibly there for the taking for #1 and #15.

Looking at the replay it is apparent that 1) Palamo has some serious wheels for a DE, 2) Walker had an easy play at the pylon but pulled up short (dude, you are a SR. Pretend like you belong on the field!), and 3) McGill, who is FAR bigger than the USU WR, didn't even need to get all the way through his block, he only needed to push his man outside to force Keeton back inside and into what would have been a devastating hit by Palamo.

Thretton has seemingly unlimited potential as a DE or linebacker. I was impressed. That being said, he made a few plays only so I may be drinking some koolaid.

It was RoJo against ucla. Awesome.

[LA Ute]

I do not have the football "eye" that many here have, but I was just now watching a replay of the TCU-LSU game and I took it as kind of a reality check for myself. It seemed to me that those teams are playing at a higher level generally than what I saw Thursday night, in terms of general speed, agility, accuracy with the ball, power and ferocity. I don't mean to be Debbie Downer or a pessimist at all. It's just good to be realistic. I think we can get there but there's a ways to go.

[crazyute]

One concern I had was watching McGill's effort. This seemed most obvious during Keeton's TD scramble to the corner of the endzone. McGill was getting blocked by the WR and I didn't see any evidence of McGill trying to fit off the block. He seemed perfectly content to watch Keeton run past him and nearly got taken out by a pursuing Palamo who nearly saved the touchdown. If he was given that amount of effort on every play, it's no wonder their receivers always had 5 yards of empty space.

I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

[chrisrenrut]

I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

Where did this come from? I don't think Dwight's comments are out of place. I don't read UF.N much, so I can't compare his comments with what is common over there.

If something is egregious, fans are going to discuss.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I don't frequent ufn, so I can't say what is going on there. But I can say that after rewatching the game, McGill struggles mightily getting off blocks, and for a guy his size, he is not very physical.

[sharpone]

I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

Yeah I'm not sure I agree either. McGill was burned on a lot of plays, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was targeted by USU. Maybe I'm reading into it, but it seemed that Keeton called that out in his postgame saying that there were 'key matchups' they were targeting. Well in any case, even if that's not what Keeton was referring to, McGill had a lot of balls caught on him. As for the Keeton scramble TD, I was quite close to that corner of the end zone at the game. McGill wasn't even engaged with the blocker. He engaged when it was far too late. The lack of effort was very obvious and sad to see. One fan (not me) yelled "That's on you McGill!!" right after the score, a lot of us in the corner saw it plain as day.

Anyway, it doesn't really do any good for us to 'call a player out', so I'm not trying to do that. I'm just posting my observations. I'm sure the coaches will see the same things and like LA said, he will hear all about it. McGill is a big guy, I think he can improve and get more physical, just needs to be coached up. I hope we see a renewed effort on Saturday. From everyone.

[crazyute]

that's what I was trying to say this calling out of one player especially on a play where there were multiple players that were dogging it. utefans gets a disdain for a player and they drive it home. dwight is a big contributor to this over there.


Yeah I'm not sure I agree either. McGill was burned on a lot of plays, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was targeted by USU. Maybe I'm reading into it, but it seemed that Keeton called that out in his postgame saying that there were 'key matchups' they were targeting. Well in any case, even if that's not what Keeton was referring to, McGill had a lot of balls caught on him. As for the Keeton scramble TD, I was quite close to that corner of the end zone at the game. McGill wasn't even engaged with the blocker. He engaged when it was far too late. The lack of effort was very obvious and sad to see. One fan (not me) yelled "That's on you McGill!!" right after the score, a lot of us in the corner saw it plain as day.

Anyway, it doesn't really do any good for us to 'call a player out', so I'm not trying to do that. I'm just posting my observations. I'm sure the coaches will see the same things and like LA said, he will hear all about it. McGill is a big guy, I think he can improve and get more physical, just needs to be coached up. I hope we see a renewed effort on Saturday. From everyone.

[Bacana Ute]

I was concerned with the RBs and their ability to pick up blitzes. In particular Poole really blew his assignment bad on a couple of blitzes that led to Wilson getting sacked. Also the RBs seemed to be missing the holes at times. Still not being able to punch it into the endzone from the the one yard line with the size of the O-Line is a travesty. I was more concerned with the DB coverage all night. In particular they were eaten alive on the slants and seam routes. I wonder if part of that is coaching, they seemed to be playing way too far off all night long. As for McGill, the guy should be a safety, doesn't seem to be fluid enough or quick enough to be a corner but isn't physical enough to be a safety.

[UTEopia]

Every player gets graded every play on execution of assignment, technique and effort. Every play is reviewed with the travel team position group so that they can all learn from the performance of those on the field. There are guys who look like they are making a tremendous effort every play and they are. There are also guys who do not look to be making a tremendous effort, but who are. I think McGill has a reputation for being soft. A player of his size and speed generally does not move from safety to corner unless he lacks the physicality to play safety. After watching the play in question, it looked to me like he could have made a greater effort to get off of the block. I trust that Shah will be able to see what all of us saw and make it well known to Keith. Hopefully he will want to perform better at that phase of the game. There is another thing to remember. McGill must have done something right that play because Keeton was forced to scramble. This usually is the result of good coverage and pressure.

[concerned]

I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

is there any irony in singling out a poster for singling out a player? seems pretty tame to me, as message board discussions go. The problem with utefans is posters trashing other posters ad hominim and ad naseum , not trashing players.

[concerned]

I do not have the football "eye" that many here have, but I was just now watching a replay of the TCU-LSU game and I took it as kind of a reality check for myself. It seemed to me that those teams are playing at a higher level generally than what I saw Thursday night, in terms of general speed, agility, accuracy with the ball, power and ferocity. I don't mean to be Debbie Downer or a pessimist at all. It's just good to be realistic. I think we can get there but there's a ways to go.

I wish we had made our transisiton to the BCS as well as TCU has. Patterson has done a terrific job. They have separated themselves from us, for the time being at least. Hope we catch up soon.

[sancho]

I wish we had made our transisiton to the BCS as well as TCU has. Patterson has done a terrific job. They have separated themselves from us, for the time being at least. Hope we catch up soon.

I think the main differences there are (1) continuity in terms of scheme and (2) good QB play.

[concerned]

I think the main differences there are (1) continuity in terms of scheme and (2) good QB play.

yep. I would add (3) team speed, esp. on defense.

[Bacana Ute]

yep. I would add (3) team speed, esp. on defense.
It is all in recruiting. Being a team in Texas and in the Big 12 TCU has more doors open to them than Utah does.

[Jarid in Cedar]

It is all in recruiting. Being a team in Texas and in the Big 12 TCU has more doors open to them than Utah does.


I think it is more simple. We have had significant QB issues, they have not. trade QB's in 2009-2013 and we would probably swap results.

[Bacana Ute]

I think it is more simple. We have had significant QB issues, they have not. trade QB's in 2009-2013 and we would probably swap results.

The QB issue is getting a bit worn out to me, was it really a QB issue or was it a recruiting issue? I believe it falls more on the coaches and recruiting than it did with the QB issue. The coaches put all their eggs in the Jordan Wynn basket and then continued to do so injury after injury. It still boggles my mind to this day, how he was the starting the QB at the beginning of last year. I still believe TCU has an edge of Utah in recruiting since they are located in the state of Texas. Also even though this may anger fellow Ute fans, I believe Gary Patterson has done a far better job keeping his team and staff consistent than Coach Whitt.

[justaute]

I agree with you. How many OCs have we had? 4 or 5? And, IMO, our D has not been nearly as good as when GA was here. To me, GP/TCU has had a much better defense.

In Whit's defense, it's not his fault that GA has moved on to better things -- arguably (I think UW is a much bigger name than Utah) a more prestigious job at UW. Has Whit identified capable successors in all the key coaching positions? You decide.


The QB issue is getting a bit worn out to me, was it really a QB issue or was it a recruiting issue? I believe it falls more on the coaches and recruiting than it did with the QB issue. The coaches put all their eggs in the Jordan Wynn basket and then continued to do so injury after injury. It still boggles my mind to this day, how he was the starting the QB at the beginning of last year. I still believe TCU has an edge of Utah in recruiting since they are located in the state of Texas. Also even though this may anger fellow Ute fans, I believe Gary Patterson has done a far better job keeping his team and staff consistent than Coach Whitt.

[GarthUte]

It's my understanding that this was McGill's first game as a corner and it showed. Unfortunately for him - and any other future CB - Utah has had a nice string of CBs who have moved on to play at the next level. The comparison to the former players will always be a factor. And it's not just McGill. The entire defensive backfield is inexperienced so they'll be feeling extra pressure to perform. I'm not making excuses, but pointing out the reason I think USU had 300+ passing yards.

[Jarid in Cedar]

The QB issue is getting a bit worn out to me, was it really a QB issue or was it a recruiting issue? I believe it falls more on the coaches and recruiting than it did with the QB issue. The coaches put all their eggs in the Jordan Wynn basket and then continued to do so injury after injury. It still boggles my mind to this day, how he was the starting the QB at the beginning of last year. I still believe TCU has an edge of Utah in recruiting since they are located in the state of Texas. Also even though this may anger fellow Ute fans, I believe Gary Patterson has done a far better job keeping his team and staff consistent than Coach Whitt.


I don't disagree with most of this. My point is that outside of QB, the gap is narrower than the current results reflect. The QB recruiting/coaching/end results is a perfect storm. Many point to Wynn's frailty as the reasons for our QB issues. I think the real culprit is Tyler Shreve, and the one year of Chow's influence.

Here is the QB recruiting/depth chart since Johnson last started.

2009- Cain and Wynn. The results with Wynn are well documented, but these two had a combined 23-9 record as a starter.

2010-Shreve. Here is where it started to fall apart. Shreve did not report in 2010 due to his altercation with his coach. But depth didn't take a huge hit in 2010 because Cain/Wynn held down the ship and Griff Robles returned from his mission and played spot time. The spread offense was a good match for his skills, so the coaches probably felt ok in not pursuing a replacement for Shreve.

2011-No recruit. Losing Brown really hurt. You always want to get a QB. But, Shreve was now on the team and basically became to 2011 signee. So, the team had an injured Wynn, Robles, and Shreve. The change to Chow's offense was probably a huge problem because it was a step away from the strengths of your heir back up to Wynn(*Robles) Griff never was comfortable under center, and got into Chow's doghouse early on because of his struggles with the footwork.. Shreve appeared to have all of the tools, but lacked the mental side needed for Chow's offense. Hays was added late to give a real backup for Wynn(and thankfully so). By the end of 2011, Wynn was hurt again, Robles transferred down a division, and Shreve was kicked off of the team.

2012-Wilson and Hansen. Wynn was the only realistic option. Hays was limited, Hansen was hurt and redshirt, and Wilson was still very green.

So go back in time and reset the depth chart if 2 things don't go down(Shreve's issues, and the Chow experiment)

2009
1. Cain-Ju
2. Wynn-Fr
3. Robles-tFr
(I realize they flop, but this is how they started)

2010
1. Wynn-So
2. Cain-Sr
3. Robles-rFr
4. Shreve-tFr

2011
1. Wynn-Jr
2. Roble-So
3. Shreve-rFr

2012
1. Wynn-rJr
2. Robles-Jr
3. Shreve-So
4. Wilson-tFr

Shreve would have provided the needed depth and been an adequate backup if he wasn't a knuckle head. Chow cost us continuity in system and likely Griff's career as a Ute. While all of this falls onto Whitt's head, it wasn't like they were not addressing the issues with depth behind Wynn, but having 2 QB's leave the team after 2011 was a total killer(which is why we recruited two QB's in 2012).

[NorthwestUteFan]

Add to that the fact that in 2010 we had a capable Sr in Cain, the Heir Apparent So in Wynn, and a pair of talented RS FR in Robles and Shreve. What QB would want to fight for playing time in that scenario?

Again in 2011 we apparently had the position all wrapped up. No HS QB wants to come into a system only to fight for playing time against that many upper classmen.

When Chow realized that our primary option was hurt, and our backups were not likely to work, he had to go out and find the best possible remaining option and he found our very own Matt Saracen (John Hays).

Whitt righted the ship in 2012 but switched off the bilge pumps and hired Brian Johnson, who was obviously not ready for prime time as an OC.

I love Whitt, but somewhat question his administrative abilities. I like Sitake for the most part. I like Elisaia as a strength coach. I like Morgan Scalley and BJ as recruiters, and Sharrief Shah as a as a blast from the past and as an energy guy. But after Whitt, there seems to be a huge dropoff in coaching talent. Erickson is a breath of fresh air, but I am not a fan of hiring new position coaches from inside the program. I want the coaching staff to have more experience than just 'I played on your team a few years ago, worked as a GA for a few years, but never even coached a Pee Wee team...'

[LA Ute]

I love Whitt, but somewhat question his administrative abilities. I like Sitake for the most part. I like Elisaia as a strength coach. I like Morgan Scalley and BJ as recruiters, and Sharrief Shah as a as a blast from the past and as an energy guy. But after Whitt, there seems to be a huge dropoff in coaching talent. Erickson is a breath of fresh air, but I am not a fan of hiring new position coaches from inside the program. I want the coaching staff to have more experience than just 'I played on your team a few years ago, worked as a GA for a few years, but never even coached a Pee Wee team...'

You've identified the one aspect of Whitt as a coach that makes me nervous.

[sharpone]

I love Whitt, but somewhat question his administrative abilities. I like Sitake for the most part. I like Elisaia as a strength coach. I like Morgan Scalley and BJ as recruiters, and Sharrief Shah as a as a blast from the past and as an energy guy. But after Whitt, there seems to be a huge dropoff in coaching talent. Erickson is a breath of fresh air, but I am not a fan of hiring new position coaches from inside the program. I want the coaching staff to have more experience than just 'I played on your team a few years ago, worked as a GA for a few years, but never even coached a Pee Wee team...'

Do you think that part of Whitt hiring from within the program is to build a little bit of loyalty from his stable of assistants? There seemed to be significant turnover in assistant coaches for all of those years in discussion. If you look at a program like Oregon, it seems that their assistant coaches are a lot more stable. Maybe I'm off base on this, and I'm not disagreeing with your premise that Whitt really should probably hire to "win now", but I do wonder if long term loyalty is the direction he is trying to go. All of that would be for naught if he himself were fired for lack of production (not that I'm calling for that in any way at this point).

If Whitt can get back to a bowl game this year, keep his assistants together and get another top 30's recruiting class I could see some great success in the following years. I'm curious what Dennis Erickson's long term plans are honestly. I don't see him wanting to be a head coach again, but I don't really know.

[EutawStUtesFan]

No HS QB wants to come into a system only to fight for playing time against that many upper classmen.

I know there may be some truth to this, but how did we get 3 top QBs this past recruiting season with Wilson and Shulz as the possible 1 and 2? I think Whitt just dropped the ball, didn't really see the QB position as a priority.

[jrj84105]

You've identified the one aspect of Whitt as a coach that makes me nervous.
Going outside the program for DE was a welcome change. I don't think it's any coincidence that despite losing our best receiver, we magically came up with the downfield passing attack that's been missing for years. I'm starting to think we might need some external influence on the defensive side of the ball in order to finally get some decent LB play. If DE leaves in a few years, I hope BJ is up to the task of OC so we can shuffle and get some new input on the defense.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

that's what I was trying to say this calling out of one player especially on a play where there were multiple players that were dogging it. utefans gets a disdain for a player and they drive it home. dwight is a big contributor to this over there.


I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

Whoa. Just seeing this. I apologize if you felt my critique of a certain player's effort on a certain play was so out of line. I thought the statement was rather tame. I'm a pretty low key person and try not to stir up too much trouble, so to hear that I have a reputation as "a big contributor" of targeting and torpedoing certain players is down right hilarious.

[justaute]

Dwight Schr-Ute ... you should have said "they all suck." :)

[Utah]

I'm sorry but this is such a utefans attitude here. this is the popular thing right now over there to yell about. there were plenty of players that didn't go overly hard there yet mcgill is singled out.

this attitude is the reason many here have left utefans and came here. please leave utefan garbage there.

I think your statement is more UF.N than anything else posted here. There are about five posters over there, who do their best to bully and drive everyone else away from the site.

[Utah]

I wish we had made our transisiton to the BCS as well as TCU has. Patterson has done a terrific job. They have separated themselves from us, for the time being at least. Hope we catch up soon.

I don't buy this at all. We had a better record in a better conference our first year in. Maybe TCU goes out and builds upon their first year, but after one year, Utah did a better job than TCU.

[Utah]

Add to that the fact that in 2010 we had a capable Sr in Cain, the Heir Apparent So in Wynn, and a pair of talented RS FR in Robles and Shreve. What QB would want to fight for playing time in that scenario? '

I don't like this argument. So, we now have 5 freshman/sophomore QB's. We shouldn't expect to get any more for another 2-3 years? Every year, you have guys flame out, transfer for more playing time, move positions. You have to bring in 1-2 QB's a year.

Look at what we have now:

Wilson - Sophomore
Shultz - Sr (I think)
Cox - trFreshman
Manning - trFreshman
Thomas - trFreshman

At least one of Cox, Thomas and Manning will transfer after spring ball next spring. Maybe all of them. Maybe one gets moved. The point is, QB's are all very fragile creatures and all think they are god's gift to the world. Coming in, working hard for three years, getting big and technically sound isn't in most of their plans. They want to play, and play right away. You need more QB's every year. No excuses. We haven't had a QB play all year since BJ.

[Utah]

I know there may be some truth to this, but how did we get 3 top QBs this past recruiting season with Wilson and Shulz as the possible 1 and 2? I think Whitt just dropped the ball, didn't really see the QB position as a priority.

I think this is the right answer. Whitt liked Wynn and didn't make QB a priority. That is obvious considering how many QB's he recruited with Wynn and how many he has signed the last two years.

[SoCalPat]

I don't buy this at all. We had a better record in a better conference our first year in. Maybe TCU goes out and builds upon their first year, but after one year, Utah did a better job than TCU.

TCU didn't have the benefit of missing the top two teams in the league, either.

[Utah]

TCU didn't have the benefit of missing the top two teams in the league, either.

TCU didn't play a lower division QB either. Both sides had issues to deal with and had breaks go their way. The fact remains that a lot of experts believe that the PAC-12 is the second best conference and Utah had a better record after their first year.

Utah's second year was a disaster, so TCU could surpass them this year, but everyone acts like TCU went into the Big 12 and won the title and is going to compete for a title this year.

Yes, Utah missed Stanford and Oregon, but look at TCU's wins their first year:

Grambling St
Kansas 1-11
Virginia 4-8
SMU 7-6
Baylor 8-5
W Virginia 7-6
Texas 9-4

They went 4-5 in the Big 12 as well as Utah did. Utah did it with a small RB and lower division QB. Props to TCU though, they did have more impressive looking wins in their Texas and Baylor wins.

But, all this TCU did better their first year in is just malarkey.

[SoCalPat]

TCU didn't play a lower division QB either. Both sides had issues to deal with and had breaks go their way. The fact remains that a lot of experts believe that the PAC-12 is the second best conference and Utah had a better record after their first year.

Utah's second year was a disaster, so TCU could surpass them this year, but everyone acts like TCU went into the Big 12 and won the title and is going to compete for a title this year.

Yes, Utah missed Stanford and Oregon, but look at TCU's wins their first year:

Grambling St
Kansas 1-11
Virginia 4-8
SMU 7-6
Baylor 8-5
W Virginia 7-6
Texas 9-4

They went 4-5 in the Big 12 as well as Utah did. Utah did it with a small RB and lower division QB. Props to TCU though, they did have more impressive looking wins in their Texas and Baylor wins.

But, all this TCU did better their first year in is just malarkey.

Casey Pachall missed a good chunk of the season last year, and it was solely on him. It wasn't because the coaching staff mismanaged the QB position.

Did Utah even beat a team that won 8 games in 2011? Besides BYU?

We've established that TCU had the better wins and played tougher teams, and was hurt significantly with a QB loss, just like Utah. They lost one more game, but also had four losses by a TD or less, one of which went OT and one of which was decided by a single point. Utah was blown out in three of its five losses and if there's a game in program history in which we were favored by as much as we were against Colorado and lost straight up, I'd like to know about it.

Anyone who wants to claim Utah had a better year in 2011 than TCU last year is ignoring the facts.

[Utah]

Casey Pachall missed a good chunk of the season last year, and it was solely on him. It wasn't because the coaching staff mismanaged the QB position.

Did Utah even beat a team that won 8 games in 2011? Besides BYU?

We've established that TCU had the better wins and played tougher teams, and was hurt significantly with a QB loss, just like Utah. They lost one more game, but also had four losses by a TD or less, one of which went OT and one of which was decided by a single point. Utah was blown out in three of its five losses and if there's a game in program history in which we were favored by as much as we were against Colorado and lost straight up, I'd like to know about it.

Anyone who wants to claim Utah had a better year in 2011 than TCU last year is ignoring the facts.

Utah 8-5 first year in the PAC-12
TCU 7-6 first year in the Big 12

[SoCalPat]

Utah 8-5 first year in the PAC-12
TCU 7-6 first year in the Big 12

Congratulations. You've pointed out the lone, solitary fact that backs your point up (Several that favor TCU have already been brought up).

Sagarin had Utah at 39 in 2011; TCU 32nd.

Utah's SOS in 2011 was 46th. TCU's was 16th.

The Big 12 last year was significantly tougher than the Pac-12 in 2011. The Big 12 had five teams in the top 18. The Pac-12 had 3.

Sagarin's rating has this as a pick em game at RES, TCU by 3.5 on a neutral field and by a TD in Fort Worth. But you go ahead and keep saying Utah fared better.

[Utah]

Congratulations. You've pointed out the lone, solitary fact that backs your point up (Several that favor TCU have already been brought up).

Sagarin had Utah at 39 in 2011; TCU 32nd.

Utah's SOS in 2011 was 46th. TCU's was 16th.

The Big 12 last year was significantly tougher than the Pac-12 in 2011. The Big 12 had five teams in the top 18. The Pac-12 had 3.

Sagarin's rating has this as a pick em game at RES, TCU by 3.5 on a neutral field and by a TD in Fort Worth. But you go ahead and keep saying Utah fared better.

Here's a guy that loves to take solace in what if's:

https://twitter.com/BradyPoppinga

[SoCalPat]

Here's a guy that loves to take solace in what if's:

https://twitter.com/BradyPoppinga

That's funny. What's funnier is that it's BYU that undercuts your argument at every turn and solidifies mine. BYU went 10-3 in 2011. Does that mean they're better than Utah was that year? We all know that's not the case, but W-L is the only dog you have in this fight.

Grab the life jacket already and quit drowning.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That's funny. What's funnier is that it's BYU that undercuts your argument at every turn and solidifies mine. BYU went 10-3 in 2011. Does that mean they're better than Utah was that year? We all know that's not the case, but W-L is the only dog you have in this fight.

Grab the life jacket already and quit drowning.

Oh be nice. Don't you realize you are speaking with one of 'the five' posters at ufn? You are speaking with royalty here. :D

[Utah]

Congratulations. You've pointed out the lone, solitary fact that backs your point up (Several that favor TCU have already been brought up).

Sagarin had Utah at 39 in 2011; TCU 32nd.

Utah's SOS in 2011 was 46th. TCU's was 16th.

The Big 12 last year was significantly tougher than the Pac-12 in 2011. The Big 12 had five teams in the top 18. The Pac-12 had 3.

Sagarin's rating has this as a pick em game at RES, TCU by 3.5 on a neutral field and by a TD in Fort Worth. But you go ahead and keep saying Utah fared better.

Argh. Really? OK, let's look at this, shall we? In 2011, Utah went 8-5. TCU went 7-6.

You brought up Sagarin. So, because TCU was afforded the opportunity to lose to Oklahoma, and Utah lost to Washington instead of Oregon, TCU is the better team. Yup. You nailed it there. Good one. The good news? If Utah and TCU both go 8-4 this year, and Utah loses to USC, Oregon and Stanford, then Utah is clearly the better team. Yay.

Then again, you come with a similar stat, which is SOS. Now, TCU gets help here, because Iowa State, Baylor and Texas Tech decided that between the three teams, they would only play one BCS team OOC. One. Whereas Utah played Pitt, ASU and Washington who chose to play Missouri, Illinois, ND and Nebraska OOC. Then, you toss in the fact that TCU was allowed the privilege to lose Oklahoma St and Kansas St, while Utah gets penalized for losing to Cal and Washington instead of Oregon and Stanford.

Your next point was rankings...um...you really missed the boat here. The top ranked team from the Big 12 in 2012 (TCU's first year) was Kansas St at #12. Oklahoma came in at #15. Texas at #19. In the PAC-12 in 2011, Oregon #4, USC #6, Stanford #7. The PAC-12 in 2011 was much better than the Big 12 in 2012. Like I've said a million times, switch the Cal/Wash losses for Stanford/Oregon, and you have no argument.

TCU played 11 BCS teams in 2012. Utah played 11 BCS teams in 2011. Pretty equal. The BCS teams Utah played played much tougher OOC schedules than TCU's. Utah played a 10 win BYU team. TCU played a 7 win SMU team.

The point is this:

We can argue little points back and forth and throw stats around that make each other's argument seem better. Both Utah and TCU had advantages and disadvantages. At the end of the day, one thing matters, and that is record. Wins and losses. Anything else is just an excuse. And, please don't insult yourself by bring BYU into the equation. These are two BCS teams that played 9 conference games, one BCS team OOC, one BCS team in their bowl, one lower division team and one mid-major (although BYU is quite a bit more major than SMU).

Utah went 8-5 in their first year.
TCU went 7-6.

To say that TCU has gone in and taken the world by storm and Utah has struggled mightily is wrong. It isn't true. After their first year in a BCS conference, Utah was more successful than TCU.

To say, after one year of TCU in the Big 12, that TCU has done a better job than Utah isn't true.

We can revisit this after TCU's second year, but after one year, Utah was more successful in their transition into a BCS conference than TCU was.

[justaute]

Here is my TCU/Utah analysis...TCU kicked our a$$ in our house, on national TV. IMO, TCU's defense, as a whole, has been meaningfully better than that of Utah in the past 4-5 years; and, our D continues show a downward trend. 8-5 vs 7-6 doesn't really mean a whole lot.

[sancho]

There are some similarities. Both schools had a decent showing in year 1. In year two, both were picked by many as dark horse candidates. Utah obviously failed to live up to those expectations. We'll see how TCU does this year. I would be shocked if they do as poorly as we did last year.

In public perception, there is no debate. General consensus among media and fans nationwide is that TCU has adjusted better to a big time conference than Utah has. This could easily change with another season's worth of results, but that's the reality right now.

[LA Ute]

There are some similarities. Both schools had a decent showing in year 1. In year two, both were picked by many as dark horse candidates. Utah obviously failed to live up to those expectations. We'll see how TCU does this year. I would be shocked if they do as poorly as we did last year.

In public perception, there is no debate. General consensus among media and fans nationwide is that TCU has adjusted better to a big time conference than Utah has. This could easily change with another season's worth of results, but that's the reality right now.

The major difference, in my opinion, was that our offense was such a train wreck during our first two years in the PAC-12. I attribute that 100% to coaching decisions that did not work out (that 's being charitable). The offense ship seems to have been righted, so we'll see what happens next.


"It's men in shorts."

-- Rick Majerus