Encouraging your children to interact with those of different faiths

[UTEopia]

Although LDS, I have witnessed multiple instances of situations where parents would not allow their kids to play with children not of the same faith. I always chalked that up to ignorance. We even had kids tell our kids that they could not play at our house when the neighbor kids, who were not LDS, were over. Well, there appears to be a new LDS kids book that appears to promote that type of thinking. "The Not Even Once Club" written by the spouse of LDS Apostle Wendy Nelson. Is anyone else bothered by the reported message of this book?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56851977-180/book-lds-christ-club.html.csp

[chrisrenrut]

Although LDS, I have witnessed multiple instances of situations where parents would not allow their kids to play with children not of the same faith. I always chalked that up to ignorance. We even had kids tell our kids that they could not play at our house when the neighbor kids, who were not LDS, were over. Well, there appears to be a new LDS kids book that appears to promote that type of thinking. "The Not Even Once Club" written by the spouse of LDS Apostle Wendy Nelson. Is anyone else bothered by the reported message of this book?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56851977-180/book-lds-christ-club.html.csp

Growing up, most of my best friends were not LDS. This was in Bouniful during the late 70's to the mid 80's, and my dad was bishop most of that time. They didnt encourage it, but also never forbade me from going to their houses, or them coming to ours. I have never asked them since what their thoughts were at the time, I need to do that soon. None of my friends were converted, and I remained faithfully LDS.

[LA Ute]

Although LDS, I have witnessed multiple instances of situations where parents would not allow their kids to play with children not of the same faith. I always chalked that up to ignorance. We even had kids tell our kids that they could not play at our house when the neighbor kids, who were not LDS, were over. Well, there appears to be a new LDS kids book that appears to promote that type of thinking. "The Not Even Once Club" written by the spouse of LDS Apostle Wendy Nelson. Is anyone else bothered by the reported message of this book?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56851977-180/book-lds-christ-club.html.csp

I haven't read the book but if that's the message it does bother me.

This is one of my favorite GC talks ever:

Doctrine of Inclusion (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/10/doctrine-of-inclusion?lang=eng&query=neighbors)


Occasionally I hear of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority. I have heard about narrow-minded parents who tell children that they cannot play with a particular child in the neighborhood simply because his or her family (http://mormon.org/family) does not belong to our Church. This kind of behavior is not in keeping with the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot comprehend why any member of our Church would allow these kinds of things to happen. I have been a member of this Church my entire life. I have been a full-time missionary, twice a bishop, a mission president, a Seventy, and now an Apostle. I have never taught—nor have I ever heard taught—a doctrine of exclusion. I have never heard the members of this Church urged to be anything but loving, kind, tolerant, and benevolent to our friends and neighbors of other faiths.

The Lord expects a great deal from us. Parents, please teach your children and practice yourselves the principle of inclusion of others and not exclusion because of religious, political, or cultural differences.

[FountainOfUte]

WARNING: Apologist Mormon view ahead...

I'm a bit skeptical that this exclusion happens as much as some say it does. Do I think there are folks who only let their kids play the fellow Mormons in the neighborhood? Yes. Do I think this is always about religion? No -- this is where I think people are perhaps reading too much into situations.

My kids have plenty of friends who are not LDS. In fact, MOST of my kids' closest friends are not LDS and I let them spend time over at their houses all... the... time. BUT it's also true that I'm much more comfortable when I know their parents -- and I don't care how I've come to know them: church, little league, the grocery store, PTA, whatever. But in my case, only one of them happens every week, 50 weeks per year. Because I'm not the neighborhoods' social butterfly, my most common and often exposure to *some* of the parents in my neighborhood is at church.

So, there may be some buttoned up folks out there who judge their kids' playmates strictly on whether the friends are LDS. I'm having a hard time thinking of situations where I knew that was the case. But I think when that *appears* to be happening, there's a good chance that there's something more driving it than some trite Mo vs. not Mo thing. The social church affiliation is simply the mode by which the parents are able to get a read on a friend's home situation. JMHO.

[Diehard Ute]

WARNING: Apologist Mormon view ahead...

I'm a bit skeptical that this exclusion happens as much as some say it does. Do I think there are folks who only let their kids play the fellow Mormons in the neighborhood? Yes. Do I think this is always about religion? No -- this is where I think people are perhaps reading too much into situations.

My kids have plenty of friends who are not LDS. In fact, MOST of my kids' closest friends are not LDS and I let them spend time over at their houses all... the... time. BUT it's also true that I'm much more comfortable when I know their parents -- and I don't care how I've come to know them: church, little league, the grocery store, PTA, whatever. But in my case, only one of them happens every week, 50 weeks per year. Because I'm not the neighborhoods' social butterfly, my most common and often exposure to *some* of the parents in my neighborhood is at church.

So, there may be some buttoned up folks out there who judge their kids' playmates strictly on whether the friends are LDS. I'm having a hard time thinking of situations where I knew that was the case. But I think when that *appears* to be happening, there's a good chance that there's something more driving it than some trite Mo vs. not Mo thing. The social church affiliation is simply the mode by which the parents are able to get a read on a friend's home situation. JMHO.

As a kid who grew up in Salt Lake as a Presbyterian, I can tell you it indeed does happen.

On two occasions that I remember (and there were more earlier my parents just didn't tell me about) I had friends who were forbidden to play with me because I wasn't LDS.

I also had several friends who stopped playing with me when I would only go to church with them (they asked, at least once at the prodding of their parents) if they came to my church. I never had anyone come to my church, that condition was always quickly refused.

Now this was 25+ years ago and things have improved, but to say its about other things is just untrue, lots of people don't care, but lots do (and especially did). It's improved in the area I grew up, but much of it depends on where you live. The further you get from Salt Lake the larger the problem can become.

[Scratch]

As a kid who grew up in Salt Lake as a Presbyterian, I can tell you it indeed does happen.

On two occasions that I remember (and there were more earlier my parents just didn't tell me about) I had friends who were forbidden to play with me because I wasn't LDS.

I also had several friends who stopped playing with me when I would only go to church with them (they asked, at least once at the prodding of their parents) if they came to my church. I never had anyone come to my church, that condition was always quickly refused.

Now this was 25+ years ago and things have improved, but to say its about other things is just untrue, lots of people don't care, but lots do (and especially did). It's improved in the area I grew up, but much of it depends on where you live. The further you get from Salt Lake the larger the problem can become.

I don't think there's any doubt that it occurs in some instances. I do believe and really hope that it's improving. I know that the message from the church recently has consistently been that such an attitude is very, very wrong. That's why this book, at least as it is described, concerns me. I'm sure it wasn't intended to have an exclusive message, but it sure seems like it could be interpreted to have one. Frankly, this is one of the reasons I don't like Deseret Book; it gives an apparent stamp of church approval to all kinds of crap (not saying this book is necessarily crap, but there's plenty of stuff there where "crap" is the nicest adjective I can come up with). Also, note that I said "apparent stamp of approval," because I don't think there really is such a stamp, just like it's absurd to assume BYU's policies equal LDS church policies.

[mUUser]

The most Utah centric thread of all-time, unless this is a problem in AZ and ID as well. If we practiced that policy, none of my kids would have a single friend. OK, one of my kids would have one friend. I've not run across this problem with another faith, except when we lived in PA, where the amish kept to themselves.

[LA Ute]

The most Utah centric thread of all-time, unless this is a problem in AZ and ID as well. If we practiced that policy, none of my kids would have a single friend. OK, one of my kids would have one friend. I've not run across this problem with another faith, except when we lived in PA, where the amish kept to themselves.

It doesn't happen in California either, which is no surprise. I do remember with regret the way some kids were treated when I was a kid in SLC myself. I was not a participant, but I wish I had stepped in and done something from time to time. Mostly it was just insensitivity.


"It's men in shorts."

-- Rick Majerus

[Diehard Ute]

The most Utah centric thread of all-time, unless this is a problem in AZ and ID as well. If we practiced that policy, none of my kids would have a single friend. OK, one of my kids would have one friend. I've not run across this problem with another faith, except when we lived in PA, where the amish kept to themselves.

I think most of you will agree the 'native' LDS folks in Utah just think differently. Most every LDS friend I have who has moved to utah from another state scratches their head.

One of my friends tried to go to BYU, he was from California. Said 1 day visiting the campus and Utah County was 1 day too many.

Sadly this spills into many other things in Utah too (see politicians who feel the need to legislate morality etc)

[DrumNFeather]

I think most of you will agree the 'native' LDS folks in Utah just think differently. Most every LDS friend I have who has moved to utah from another state scratches their head.

One of my friends tried to go to BYU, he was from California. Said 1 day visiting the campus and Utah County was 1 day too many.

Sadly this spills into many other things in Utah too (see politicians who feel the need to legislate morality etc)


I have to wonder too if it has to do with the proximity of the members to each other in Utah. In other words, my ward boundaries out here in VA stretch pretty far, and you have some neighborhoods in our ward boundary that have one or no LDS families...so it's almost as though you don't have a choice but to have non LDS friends. I think it is sort of a silly thing for parents to get exercised about at young ages...I could see reigning it in a little more at older ages strictly from an "influence" perspective...but even so, you'd have to have compelling evidence outside of the person just being not LDS. It's one of the bigger adjustments my wife and I would have to make if we were to move out that way...and one of the reasons we really enjoy where we are at the moment.

[DrumNFeather]

I'll add one more thing here too...

Growing up out here in Northern VA, pretty much all my friends were not LDS, but because they knew I was LDS, they actually shielded me from their activities quite a bit. It wasn't until much later that I found out how much they partied etc...which, whatever, but I thought that was interesting that they were sensitive to it . I do remember being told one time that one person that didn't know me well didn't want me to come to their new year's eve party because I'd judge them all for drinking and smoking weed and doing laughing gas (seriously). Everyone just laughed at that objection and we all enjoyed ourselves judgement free.

[UtahsMrSports]

I have a unique perspective on this. I spent K through 5th grade in Texas. In 2nd grade I was told point blank by my best friends mom that I was no longer welcome in their home because I was LDS. It hurt, but I am thankful for it. To hear that it happens the other way is discouraging to me.

As for this book, Peggy Fletcher Stack is known to stir the pot when it comes to anything LDS related. That said, Ill read this book myself first. Probably wont ever see it in my house, but ill give it a read.

[Scorcho]

I’ve noticed many times that my teenage daughter seems frustrated and a little down after attending young women’s (either on Sunday’s or weeknights). That bums me out, because I want her to have a good experience. I’ve also noticed that her best friends are almost always non-LDS, and usually my wife and I tend to enjoy the company of her non-LDS friends much better than her LDS friends. I don’t know if others feel this way, but there is just a more relaxed be yourself attitude around people that you don’t have a religious tie to.

[U-Ute]

WARNING: Apologist Mormon view ahead...

I'm a bit skeptical that this exclusion happens as much as some say it does. Do I think there are folks who only let their kids play the fellow Mormons in the neighborhood? Yes. Do I think this is always about religion? No -- this is where I think people are perhaps reading too much into situations.

My kids have plenty of friends who are not LDS. In fact, MOST of my kids' closest friends are not LDS and I let them spend time over at their houses all... the... time. BUT it's also true that I'm much more comfortable when I know their parents -- and I don't care how I've come to know them: church, little league, the grocery store, PTA, whatever. But in my case, only one of them happens every week, 50 weeks per year. Because I'm not the neighborhoods' social butterfly, my most common and often exposure to *some* of the parents in my neighborhood is at church.

I get this, and I completely understand it. I have no problem with anything you said above. As a parent, I feel exactly the same way.

That being said, and maybe this is just a Utah phenomenon, it seems like the church offers so many opportunities and activities to its members that seems overwhelming. It always seems like there is some activity or gathering going on, and everyone feels compelled to participate in all of them lest they feel like they are somehow falling behind in the ecclesiastical race to the celestial kingdom. This leads to a case where church obligations suck up all of the free time of its members. Between sunday services, family home evening, young men's, young women's, relief society, home teaching, organizational callings (primary teacher, bishopric, etc.), and church sports activities, people don't have a chance to explore anything outside of that circle. The cynical side of me sometimes wonders if this is a way to make sure its members never have idle hands. :)

Sometimes you just need to go outside and say hi to the neighbors you don't regularly see.

[U-Ute]

I have a unique perspective on this. I spent K through 5th grade in Texas. In 2nd grade I was told point blank by my best friends mom that I was no longer welcome in their home because I was LDS. It hurt, but I am thankful for it. To hear that it happens the other way is discouraging to me.

As for this book, Peggy Fletcher Stack is known to stir the pot when it comes to anything LDS related. That said, Ill read this book myself first. Probably wont ever see it in my house, but ill give it a read.

Unfortunately, bigotry is a patently human phenomenon.

[Scratch]

I read some book reviews online. Seems like a stretch to interpret the book as encouraging this kind of behavior. It's a story of a boy who joins a club where they promise to "not even once" break the word of wisdom or look at pornography. You have to twist the intended message pretty far to decide it's a book about not allowing your children to interact with other children. Doesn't look like a particularly great book, but it's just a kids book with a keep the commandments message.

Thankfully, we all seem to agree that this sort of bizarre "no play" rule is both rare and stupid.

I haven't read the book, but I have read some of the same reviews (apparently). I think the exclusionist complaint comes from the fact that there's (apparently) a club that is only welcome to kids who agree to live by LDS standards. I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that could be interpreted as advice to not include others who don't share LDS beliefs.

[Scorcho]

I was like your daughter. I had only one good LDS friend in my teenage years and many good friends who were not LDS. That was just the composition of the classes I was in. I didn't particularly enjoy my YMs activities (I didn't hate them either), but I never missed one, and I am glad for the experience. I learned a lot and had great examples in my leaders. So I did have a good experience although I didn't always realize it at the time.

The sad thing for me was that by the time I returned from a mission, all my high school friends had moved on to activities that I didn't really want to participate in. We still played ball together, but that was really about it. I had to start from scratch making friends at the U. Good thing the U is a friendly place.

I don't if I feel the same about being relaxed though. I think it's more about the people than their religion.

I do think that youth activities can be somewhat exclusionary. They could have a little more diversity. Our ward YW leaders do their best, but it’s challenging when they are all 20-30 white stay at home mom’s with identical backgrounds and interests. The most excited my daughter has ever been in Young Women’s is when they took the girls rock climbing and repelling. That was a nice change of pace for her.

I understand the importance of learning to cook and sew and other traditional LDS Female doings, but it’s refreshing when they venture out beyond the norm. It would be cool if every once in awhile they flip-flopped the YM and YW’s activities. This week the YW are going kayaking, while the YM will be in charge of the nursery.

[U-Ute]

I read some book reviews online. Seems like a stretch to interpret the book as encouraging this kind of behavior. It's a story of a boy who joins a club where they promise to "not even once" break the word of wisdom or look at pornography. You have to twist the intended message pretty far to decide it's a book about not allowing your children to interact with other children. Doesn't look like a particularly great book, but it's just a kids book with a keep the commandments message.

I don't know if it is a stretch. You can also look at it as a story of a group of kids who form a Cool Kids Club that won't admit any kids who don't follow their rules, some of which are just wide of societal norms, and the struggles of a kid to join this club.

Obviously, the area concerning to critics is about the WOW. I don't think anyone could criticize a club which promotes that its members can't kill, lie, cheat, or do drugs. But a club which ostracizes kids who drink Coke seems a bit extreme. Either way, it is obviously a thinly veiled analog for membership in the church, which is her prerogative. Its her book to write. There are a lot of lousy books out there.


Thankfully, we all seem to agree that this sort of bizarre "no play" rule is both rare and stupid.

I agree. Frankly I have no problems with someone putting out a book like this. The intended audience is pretty obvious, and it will be interesting to see how well it sells.

Lastly, anyone who complains about a story which uses candy as a reward obviously has never had to deal with a stubborn 3 year old.

[cald22well]

This happens in many places on many different levels, although I would agree that it is most prevalent in Utah. What I think is sad is that the missionary work aspect is lost when people stay in their own little circle. I have lived in SLC, Southern Utah, and Las Vegas (Henderson actually, which has a large Mormon community) and I went between active and inactive all through school.

When I was active, I obviously still had a lot of friends who were not LDS. Even in Vegas I would get looked down on for associating with these kids. When I was inactive, many of my friends and some members didn't try to invite me to church activities. In fact, one time when I was invited to a combined activity to play softball I was told by a kid my age that if I was only going to show up for sports then I shouldn't come at all.

Contrast this with my friend's dad who was always inviting non-member friends and made sure they knew he was there if they had any questions or if they had any struggles in their life.

I understand that some parents can be worried about the temptations or are uneasy because they don't know their parents. But how many make the effort to get to know the non-LDS parents? How many don't bother to meet parents that are active LDS? And in addition to all of that, how many really think to use these situations as a missionary tool?

[Scratch]

As an aside, I think it's a little interesting that the author, Wendy Watson Nelson, doesn't even have any kids, I don't believe.

[Applejack]

As an aside, I think it's a little interesting that the author, Wendy Watson Nelson, doesn't even have any kids, I don't believe.

But she does have a PhD in child rearing, or some such BYU-ish degree.

The real lesson in all of this is that GAs and their wives should probably refrain from writing books that aren't straight-centered gospel focused. If this book were written by Molly Lue Jepsen of the Bountiful 212th Ward, its sells ten copies and no one gets offended.

[mUUser]

We are buying a fixer upper in the SLC area. It needs extensive interior remodeling and landscaping. My friend base where I currently live is 90 percent non-LDS, but my friend base in SLC is about 50/50. I've made a lot of calls to my SL acquaintances asking for recommendations on contractors and landscapers, hoping to get a few bids from each.

Without exception, my LDS acquaintances have put me in touch with "someone in the ward/stake that does wonderful work, and the members seem to really like." One started giving me the landscaper's membership credentials (high council) before I chopped her off (hopefully politely) at the knees. Upon further research, he had about the worst Yelp results I've ever seen. Really dismal stuff.

This is weirding me out. I don't care if the guy is an LDS Ute fan who who serves in the bishopric and has an interest in baseball. Those are meaningless credentials, and its bizarre that nearly everything comes down to being either LDS, or not LDS in Utah. But, perhaps I'm being too sensitive??........as there is also a good deal of "he's a good christian man" comments that I hear fairly regularly in the south.

[Diehard Ute]

We are buying a fixer upper in the SLC area. It needs extensive interior remodeling and landscaping. My friend base where I currently live is 90 percent non-LDS, but my friend base in SLC is about 50/50. I've made a lot of calls to my SL acquaintances asking for recommendations on contractors and landscapers, hoping to get a few bids from each.

Without exception, my LDS acquaintances have put me in touch with "someone in the ward/stake that does wonderful work, and the members seem to really like." One started giving me the landscaper's membership credentials (high council) before I chopped her off (hopefully politely) at the knees. Upon further research, he had about the worst Yelp results I've ever seen. Really dismal stuff.

This is weirding me out. I don't care if the guy is an LDS Ute fan who who serves in the bishopric and has an interest in baseball. Those are meaningless credentials, and its bizarre that nearly everything comes down to being either LDS, or not LDS in Utah. But, perhaps I'm being too sensitive??........as there is also a good deal of "he's a good christian man" comments that I hear fairly regularly in the south.

You're just noticing it more.

It is going to be different for you, but I think once you're here and established things will be better.

I know a good landscape company if you need one. And a contractor my family has used. I have no clue what their religious leanings are.


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