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LA Ute
09-19-2013, 02:21 PM
This is an interesting Rick Reilly piece:

Do the team names -- Redskins, Braves and Chiefs -- honor or dishonor Native Americans?

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9689220&src=desktop

(http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=9689220&src=desktop)
I guess this is where I'm supposed to fall in line and do what every other American sports writer is doing. I'm supposed to swear I won't ever write the words "Washington Redskins" anymore because it's racist and offensive and a slap in the face to all Native Americans who ever lived. Maybe it is.

I just don't quite know how to tell my father-in-law, a Blackfeet Indian. He owns a steak restaurant on the reservation near Browning, Mont. He has a hard time seeing the slap-in-the-face part.

"The whole issue is so silly to me," says Bob Burns, my wife's father and a bundle holder in the Blackfeet tribe. "The name just doesn't bother me much. It's an issue that shouldn't be an issue, not with all the problems we've got in this country."

And I definitely don't know how I'll tell the athletes at Wellpinit (Wash.) High School -- where the student body is 91.2 percent Native American -- that the "Redskins" name they wear proudly across their chests is insulting them. Because they have no idea....

Guess we need to listen to people who are offended by the Kansas City Chiefs' name, too. That's one that offends my father-in-law. "You see some little guy wearing a headdress made of chicken feathers," he says, "painting his face up, making a mockery of us. I hate that. Those are things you earn."

One person? I know an atheist who is offended by religious names like the New Orleans Saints and Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. There are people who who don't think Ole Miss should be the Rebels. People who lost family to Hurricanes. There are people who think Wizards promotes paganism. Shall we listen to all of them?

I guess so....

roseparkutes
09-19-2013, 02:35 PM
I believe it's an honor, you don't name your team after something whippy you name it something fierce, powerful, and honoring.

LA Ute
11-04-2014, 01:03 PM
This is pretty cool:


http://vimeo.com/110916467

LA Ute
11-04-2014, 01:23 PM
Also this, which I had not seen until today:

http://uteproud.utah.edu/respect/

jrj84105
11-04-2014, 01:31 PM
This is pretty cool:


http://vimeo.com/110916467
That is a fantastic video.

concerned
11-04-2014, 01:32 PM
That is a fantastic video.


Is she wearing a Rose Bowl headdress? Good omen.

utefan
11-04-2014, 02:41 PM
It's a false comparison to say names like "Redskins, Braves, and Chiefs."

Redskin is a racial slur, comparable to the N word. Braves and Chiefs are not considered insults.

Now those groups of people might find it insulting to name teams after them anyway. I can't blame them. If there was a team called the Alabama Colored Folks I'm sure black people would be upset about it. But if there was a team called the Alabama N words, it would be in a whole different category of offensive.

jrj84105
11-04-2014, 04:01 PM
The weird thing is I'm not sure that native Americans see it the same way. I've seen quite a few kids (I presume Navajo) sporting Redskins gear here in Phoenix. I saw one kid with "NATIVE" tattooed up both forearms wearing a Redskins shirt and hat. His girlfriend was wearing a shirt about Native Pride. I don't pretend to understand.

utefan
11-04-2014, 04:15 PM
The weird thing is I'm not sure that native Americans see it the same way. I've seen quite a few kids (I presume Navajo) sporting Redskins gear here in Phoenix. I saw one kid with "NATIVE" tattooed up both forearms wearing a Redskins shirt and hat. His girlfriend was wearing a shirt about Native Pride. I don't pretend to understand.
I get that not everyone understands the insult and therefore isn't offended by it. Much like some black people aren't bothered by the N word. However, there are obviously some others that are bothered by it. That's why it's in the news.

Solon
11-04-2014, 04:49 PM
It's a false comparison to say names like "Redskins, Braves, and Chiefs."

Redskin is a racial slur, comparable to the N word. Braves and Chiefs are not considered insults.

I agree with this overall - Braves, Chiefs, Warriors are generic terms.
Redskins is f#$ing ridiculous. Such an embarrassment that it's the team in our nation's capital.

"Utes" is a little more complicated. While I agree that the sentiment is one of honor, mascots by definition are trivializing & stereotyping. They're objects of amusement. That's why it's a little tougher to accept when we connect it to a specific tribe or group. This is also why I draw a line between "mascot" & "nickname." As much as I loved the guy in the headdress as a kid, I'm glad he's gone. I'm also glad that we don't see portrayals or caricatures of native americans on Utah gear (Cleveland's Chief Wahoo should make people squirm; imagine how much worse it would feel if it were identified with a particular tribe). I like the nickname because it has been divorced from its silly mascot-iterations.

I also think nicknames like Pirates & Buccaneers are lame. Imagine the Pittsburgh Rapists or the Tampa Murderers. It's not a far stretch from "Pirates."
(PS I'm a Pittsburgh Pirates fan)

sancho
11-04-2014, 05:02 PM
I also think nicknames like Pirates & Buccaneers are lame. Imagine the Pittsburgh Rapists or the Tampa Murderers. It's not a far stretch from "Pirates."
(PS I'm a Pittsburgh Pirates fan)

The word Pirates may have meant those things at one point, but it means something completely different now. You can blame Robert Louis Stevenson if you want. If we dislike pirates, we have to be critical of raiders, rebels, trojans, spartans, vikings, etc on the same grounds. We'll be left with just big cats and birds of prey.

The best mascots are unique, fun and/or historical/regional without being dorky, ironic, or snooty.

Solon
11-04-2014, 05:17 PM
The word Pirates may have meant those things at one point, but it means something completely different now. You can blame Robert Louis Stevenson if you want. If we dislike pirates, we have to be critical of raiders, rebels, trojans, spartans, vikings, etc on the same grounds. We'll be left with just big cats and birds of prey.

The best mascots are unique, fun and/or historical/regional without being dorky, ironic, or snooty.

I don't disagree, but I still find the nickname Pirate just a little distasteful.
I do disagree on Trojans & Spartans, though. Those are just geographical places, with no implication of malefaction. (although Trojans are gullible losers, and one of their greatest heroes has a name that sounds like "anus".)

Ma'ake
11-04-2014, 06:50 PM
As far as I'm concerned, we're at a truce. As long as the Ute tribe supports the use of their name associated (respectfully) with the University of Utah, and the NCAA allows it, I'm fine.

As soon as ethnic group associations with universities are banned, as a quarter Irishman I'm personally going after the Vatican to get Notre Dame in compliance.

Music lovers everywhere vomit in their mouths when mention is made of the "Utah Jazz". If they can tolerate this dichotomy, we all need to buck up.

(If we can't be the Utes, can we be the "Fightin' Polygs"? That would awesome!)

LA Ute
11-04-2014, 07:21 PM
I think that controversy is behind us for now.

Mormon Red Death
11-05-2014, 07:16 AM
I don't disagree, but I still find the nickname Pirate just a little distasteful.
I do disagree on Trojans & Spartans, though. Those are just geographical places, with no implication of malefaction. (although Trojans are gullible losers, and one of their greatest heroes has a name that sounds like "anus".)
Breaks my heart that pirates spend their whole lives following a map, when the real treasure is the friendships they build along the way.

wally
11-05-2014, 09:11 AM
Breaks my heart that pirates spend their whole lives following a map, when the real treasure is the friendships they build along the way.

lol!

Solon
11-05-2014, 09:41 AM
Breaks my heart that pirates spend their whole lives following a map, when the real treasure is the friendships they build along the way.

Bravo!

The U has done a really good job of keeping just the nickname, and getting rid of the caricatures. I do like the drum-and-feather, though. Too bad the Pac-12 network goes with the Block-U (or at least they did in the OSU game)

LA Ute
11-05-2014, 10:27 AM
Bravo!

The U has done a really good job of keeping just the nickname, and getting rid of the caricatures. I do like the drum-and-feather, though. Too bad the Pac-12 network goes with the Block-U (or at least they did in the OSU game)

I think the block U is the mark the University wants to promote. Kind of like Washington's W:

1301

Diehard Ute
11-05-2014, 10:35 AM
I think the block U is the mark the University wants to promote. Kind of like Washington's W:

1301

The U knows the D&F could disappear for use at any time and thus uses it in very specific ways, mostly things such as clothing.

They obviously want to establish the block U on broadcasts in case the day comes the D&F is gone.

concerned
11-05-2014, 11:18 AM
I think the block U is the mark the University wants to promote. Kind of like Washington's W:

1301


or like Michigans M or Stanford's S, etc. The drum and feather is fine for athletic teams, but not for branding the academic side of the University, including stationary, signs, television, video, etc etc.

Rocker Ute
11-05-2014, 01:21 PM
Breaks my heart that pirates spend their whole lives following a map, when the real treasure is the friendships they build along the way.

Every week I swear I'm done with the Internet. Every week I get drawn back in. This brought me back this week.

Diehard Ute
11-05-2014, 03:59 PM
Speaking of Trojans the woman who sits next to me at football games told me one of her friends predicted Utah would beat USC as everyone knows Trojans don't work in Utah

utefan
11-05-2014, 04:05 PM
Speaking of Trojans the woman who sits next to me at football games told me one of her friends predicted Utah would beat USC as everyone knows Trojans don't work in Utah
Trojans always break.

OrangeUte
11-06-2014, 07:35 AM
Breaks my heart that pirates spend their whole lives following a map, when the real treasure is the friendships they build along the way.

Awesome!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

LA Ute
11-26-2014, 05:43 PM
This makes me proud as an alum and booster. The U. is being held up as a model:

University of Utah's Utes Mascot Has Been Proud Tradition Since 1972

Read more at https://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/11/25/university-utahs-utes-mascot-has-been-proud-tradition-1972-158016

SeattleUte
11-26-2014, 11:21 PM
Can we change the title of this thread? Indians is what most "Native Americans" prefer to be called and therefore it's accepted by most knowledgeable people as the preferred term.

LA Ute
11-27-2014, 12:17 AM
Can we change the title of this thread? Indians is what most "Native Americans" prefer to be called and therefore it's accepted by most knowledgeable people as the preferred term.

Absolutely. As soon as November is changed to Indian History Month.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 12:23 AM
Absolutely. As soon as November is changed to Indian History Month.

I don't know about Native American History Month; it was started by well meaning and ignorant white people for all I know. Do you deny my statement?

Correction: I know that there are some Native Americans who prefer not to be called Indians. There are Native Alaskans who reject Indians, for example. That would be a good reason why it's called Native American History month. But the Utes prefer Indians, I'm sure.

utefan
11-27-2014, 07:31 AM
I don't know about Native American History Month; it was started by well meaning and ignorant white people for all I know. Do you deny my statement?

Correction: I know that there are some Native Americans who prefer not to be called Indians. There are Native Alaskans who reject Indians, for example. That would be a good reason why it's called Native American History month. But the Utes prefer Indians, I'm sure.
I don't know who you've been talking to, but the ones I know call themselves Natives.

Ma'ake
11-27-2014, 08:53 AM
I like the term they use in Canada to describe their indigenous people: "First Nation"

Also, I thought the halftime show last Saturday of the Ute tribe, and their different bands, was truly outstanding.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 09:22 AM
I don't know who you've been talking to, but the ones I know call themselves Natives.

http://www.utetribe.com/

utefan
11-27-2014, 09:46 AM
http://www.utetribe.com/
I know they are referred to as an Indian tribe, but the ones I know all call themselves natives. One guy I know even has "native" tattooed on his forearm and "pride" tattooed on the other forearm.

Kind of like how "African Americans" refer to themselves as "black" regardless of what any website might say.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 09:53 AM
I know they are referred to as an Indian tribe, but the ones I know all call themselves natives. One guy I know even has "native" tattooed on his forearm and "pride" tattooed on the other forearm.

Kind of like how "African Americans" refer to themselves as "black" regardless of what any website might say.

I linked the official Ute Indian tribe web site.

I could link a multitude of federal statutes, interviews and speeches and writings of famous and learned Indians, and essays and articles from our country's most prestigous independent publications and university presses that call them Indians. I didn't say there was anything wrong with Native American, just that the majority of people who could be called either prefer Indians and that ought to be the final word. If you have a particular friend who prefers Native I'd use that for him.

LA Ute
11-27-2014, 10:32 AM
I linked the official Ute Indian tribe web site.

I could link a multitude of federal statutes, interviews and speeches and writings of famous and learned Indians, and essays and articles from our country's most prestigous independent publications and university presses that call them Indians. I didn't say there was anything wrong with Native American, just that the majority of people who could be called either prefer Indians and that ought to be the final word. If you have a particular friend who prefers Native I'd use that for him.

per·snick·et·y
pərˈsnikədē/
adjective NORTH AMERICAN informal



placing too much emphasis on trivial or minor details; fussy.
"persnickety gardeners"

requiring a particularly precise or careful approach.
adjective: pernickety
"it's hard to find a film more persnickety and difficult to use than black-and-white infrared"

utefan
11-27-2014, 10:33 AM
I linked the official Ute Indian tribe web site.

I could link a multitude of federal statutes, interviews and speeches and writings of famous and learned Indians, and essays and articles from our country's most prestigous independent publications and university presses that call them Indians. I didn't say there was anything wrong with Native American, just that the majority of people who could be called either prefer Indians and that ought to be the final word. If you have a particular friend who prefers Native I'd use that for him.

There are multitudes of speeches, writings, essays, and all that same stuff about "African Americans" as well. It doesn't change the fact that most of them refer to themselves as being black.

Be careful when you say "the majority of people who could be called either prefer Indians" because I don't think it's true. It's not that I have a "particular friend" who feels differently. It's that I had a "particular grandma" (rest her soul) and a lot of family and friends.

I mentioned one guy as an example, but I've honestly never met anyone who preferred to be called "Indian" instead of "Native" despite what it may say on a website.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 10:53 AM
There are multitudes of speeches, writings, essays, and all that same stuff about "African Americans" as well. It doesn't change the fact that most of them refer to themselves as being black.

Be careful when you say "the majority of people who could be called either prefer Indians" because I don't think it's true. It's not that I have a "particular friend" who feels differently. It's that I had a "particular grandma" (rest her soul) and a lot of family and friends.

I mentioned one guy as an example, but I've honestly never met anyone who preferred to be called "Indian" instead of "Native" despite what it may say on a website.

Again, it's not just any web site. It's the official Ute Indian Tribe web site. If you don't get the special significance of that, I'm sorry I'm not going to explain it to you.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 11:02 AM
per·snick·et·y
pərˈsnikədē/
adjective NORTH AMERICAN informal



placing too much emphasis on trivial or minor details; fussy.
"persnickety gardeners"

requiring a particularly precise or careful approach.
adjective: pernickety
"it's hard to find a film more persnickety and difficult to use than black-and-white infrared"




I know you know I'm right here and I didn't tell you anything you didn't already know. I just felt that use of "Native American" in this context was a little bit conspicuously condescending. Though yes, this whole "controversy" involving use of the word Utes or the drum and feather has become tiresome. If you feel that since the University of Utah made the redtailed hawk its mascott and expressed regret at its use of the Indian characatures in the past it has nothing to apologize to anyone for I agree with you. I don't know why it would pay anyone money to use "Ute" or the drum and feather, but I'm happy to be enlightened. But putting Native American in the title of the thread is not how I would have handled it.

LA Ute
11-27-2014, 11:08 AM
I know you know I'm right here and I didn't tell you anything you didn't already know. I just felt that use of "Native American" in this context was a little bit conspicuously condescending. Though yes, this whole "controversy" involving use of the word Utes or the drum and feather has become tiresome. If you feel that since the University of Utah made the redtailed hawk its mascott and expressed regret at its use of the Indian characatures in the past it has nothing to apologize to anyone for I agree with you. I don't know why it would pay anyone money to use "Ute" or the drum and feather, but I'm happy to be enlightened. But putting Native American in the title of the thread is not how I would have handled it.

I really don't care what term we use. I chose to use the term "Native American" because it offends no one (or maybe it offends the fewest people). The substance of the issue is more interesting to me than the semantics. I think the U has handled the issue very well. It's justly a matter of pride for all of us.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 11:15 AM
I really don't care what term we use. I chose to use the term "Native American" because it offends no one (or maybe it offends the fewest people). The substance of the issue is more interesting to me than the semantics. I think the U has handled the issue very well. It's justly a matter of pride for all of us.

I think we're talking past one another. (Does Indian offend anyone?)

LA Ute
11-27-2014, 12:19 PM
I think we're talking past one another. (Does Indian offend anyone?)

It seems to be the most widely accepted, non-offensive term. Kind of like African-American. I always default to those terms when I am with people who are in the group in question. If they start using terms like "black" or "Indian" I switch to those.

utefan
11-27-2014, 03:02 PM
Again, it's not just any web site. It's the official Ute Indian Tribe web site. If you don't get the special significance of that, I'm sorry I'm not going to explain it to you.
So me being part Ute myself is not allowed to refer to myself as part Native?

I don't need you to explain anything to me. I just need you to pay attention when I'm trying to explain something to you.

I'll say again, I've never met anyone of Native American, Indian, or whatever you want to call it decent, who did not refer to themselves as Native. I have met several who did not like to be called Indians. I've met a few who didn't mind being referred to as Indian, but they also referred to themselves as Native in addition to that. What some website says is not really going to determine how people refer to themselves.

The NAACP website (and organization name) refers to black people, African Americans or whatever you want to call them, as "colored" but I've never met a black person who refers to themselves as colored. I've met a few who refer to themselves as African American, but I've never met one who didn't either exclusively or additionally refer to themselves as being black.

You simply can't say things like "the majority of black people prefer to be called colored because that's what it says on their official website" and the same is true with Natives.

utefan
11-27-2014, 03:03 PM
I think we're talking past one another. (Does Indian offend anyone?)
Indian doesn't offend anyone, much like colored doesn't offend most black people. It's not everyone's favorite term though.

Maybe "American Indian" is a little better term.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 04:45 PM
Indian doesn't offend anyone, much like colored doesn't offend most black people. It's not everyone's favorite term though.

Maybe "American Indian" is a little better term.

Colored actually is offensive to any black person I have known. People of color is not or should not be, but I don't know what you're referring to. I once had to set straight some BYU fans about people of color after they called a fried of mine who used that term racist. You remind me of them. Colored is not the same as Indian.

SeattleUte
11-27-2014, 04:47 PM
So me being part Ute myself is not allowed to refer to myself as part Native?

I don't need you to explain anything to me. I just need you to pay attention when I'm trying to explain something to you.

I'll say again, I've never met anyone of Native American, Indian, or whatever you want to call it decent, who did not refer to themselves as Native. I have met several who did not like to be called Indians. I've met a few who didn't mind being referred to as Indian, but they also referred to themselves as Native in addition to that. What some website says is not really going to determine how people refer to themselves.

The NAACP website (and organization name) refers to black people, African Americans or whatever you want to call them, as "colored" but I've never met a black person who refers to themselves as colored. I've met a few who refer to themselves as African American, but I've never met one who didn't either exclusively or additionally refer to themselves as being black.

You simply can't say things like "the majority of black people prefer to be called colored because that's what it says on their official website" and the same is true with Natives.

Go tell this to the Ute Indian tribe, since you seem to think you know more about this than they do.

LA Ute
11-27-2014, 08:21 PM
Anyway...as I was saying I really admire the way the U. and the Ute tribe have worked together.

utefan
11-27-2014, 09:01 PM
Go tell this to the Ute Indian tribe, since you seem to think you know more about this than they do.
Yes I'll go tell my mom she better check the website and get all her siblings to fall in line, haha.

Go find a member of the tribe and ask them if they're native. You'll probably be surprised by their answer.

Applejack
11-28-2014, 07:03 AM
Yesterday we went to the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian. I didn't ask what term to use on this thread, but we saw an amazing Comanche dance and had some wonderful food!

Rocker Ute
11-28-2014, 07:21 AM
Louis CK on Indians - some coarse language


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZkwuILn_s

SeattleUte
11-28-2014, 11:53 AM
Yes I'll go tell my mom she better check the website and get all her siblings to fall in line, haha.

Go find a member of the tribe and ask them if they're native. You'll probably be surprised by their answer.

Good idea. Have your mom write a letter to the Ute Indian Tribe and tell them they are calling themselves the wrong thing.

utefan
11-28-2014, 01:17 PM
Good idea. Have your mom write a letter to the Ute Indian Tribe and tell them they are calling themselves the wrong thing.
My mom is part of the tribe, so I'll tell her to get herself to fall in line because some guy online read something on the Internet.

SeattleUte
11-28-2014, 01:35 PM
My mom is part of the tribe, so I'll tell her to get herself to fall in line because some guy online read something on the Internet.

My sources extend far beyond the Internet. I am very worldly and I read books, constantly. My friends and acquaintances are diverse and include Indians. I am a professional and I have represented Indians in court cases. In short, it's been a long time since my mom (god bless her) had anything to do with my views. In a way we no longer are even of the same tribe.

Regardless, it appears that the Ute Indian Tribe has decided to call itself Indians as that is part of the brand it projects to the world (see, e.g., the Ute Indian Tribe Internet site). Your mom therefore appears to hold a view that is an outlier with respect to the majority of Utes. I think you are going to have to reverse this political consensus among Ute Indians (The Ute Indian Tribe is a democratic organization is it not?). A good start may be for your mom to send a letter. Meanwhile, you should call your Senator beacuse the entire United States government prefers Indian. That will be a good start but only the beginning. . . You have a lot of work to do my friend, as I am not aware of any self-identified Native American tribes. You also have work to do with the New York Times, Sherman Alexie and a multitude of other cultural icons.

LA Ute
11-28-2014, 01:36 PM
OK, SU. You've accomplished your goal. The molehill is now a mountain. Time to move on to another thread with title terminology that displeases you.

utefan
11-28-2014, 02:59 PM
My sources extend far beyond the Internet. I am very worldly and I read books, constantly. My friends and acquaintances are diverse and include Indians. I am a professional and I have represented Indians in court cases. In short, it's been a long time since my mom (god bless her) had anything to do with my views. In a way we no longer are even of the same tribe.

Regardless, it appears that the Ute Indian Tribe has decided to call itself Indians as that is part of the brand it projects to the world (see, e.g., the Ute Indian Tribe Internet site). Your mom therefore appears to hold a view that is an outlier with respect to the majority of Utes. I think you are going to have to reverse this political consensus among Ute Indians (The Ute Indian Tribe is a democratic organization is it not?). A good start may be for your mom to send a letter. Meanwhile, you should call your Senator beacuse the entire United States government prefers Indian. That will be a good start but only the beginning. . . You have a lot of work to do my friend, as I am not aware of any self-identified Native American tribes. You also have work to do with the New York Times, Sherman Alexie and a multitude of other cultural icons.
Oh, okay. I'll tell my mom to get everyone she knows to fall in line. And I'll start going through the millions of "Native Pride" websites and social media accounts so I can tell them to fall in line too, because some guy on the Internet says they should not be referring to themselves as Natives. He says he's a professional and he read it on a website so that obviously trumps everything else.

I guess I've been wrong all these years referring to myself as part native. And all those boxes that I checked that said native american were wrong, they situs have said Indian. Some guy on the Internet says he's a professional, and he read it on a website, so he must be correct.

Hahaha, gotta love the Internet.