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View Full Version : Are you a non-Mormon? Do you practice another faith? Or none?



UtahDan
02-20-2013, 01:57 PM
Following on my Mormonism poll, I'm curious to hear from the people who don't self identify as Mormon or primarily Mormon. Catholic? Mainline protestant? Restorationist (other than Mormon)? Eastern religion? Fundamentalist? Atheist? I feel like I would end up messing up a poll and don't have enough options anyway, so I'll just invite people to say (if they are comfortable). I'm really hoping we have have a religion forum where differences can be discussed and questions asked with respect and curiosity and without the rancor that I have only ever experienced in Utah.

Hello, my name is UtahDan and I am an agnostic atheist. But religion fascinates me.

Expat
02-20-2013, 02:00 PM
hahaha

Hi UtahDan!

I'm an Expat, and I'm a Roman Catholic of the Vatican II persuasion

UtahDan
02-20-2013, 02:04 PM
hahaha

Hi UtahDan!

I'm an Expat, and I'm a Roman Catholic of the Vatican II persuasion

See this is perfect. I have no clue what that means. Can you thumbnail it for me?

Diehard Ute
02-20-2013, 02:29 PM
I was raised Presbyterian, two of my Aunts are/were ordained Presbyterian ministers and most of my family is fairly active.

I was very active, however I no longer attend church and really have no desire to. Some of that is from age and experiences with, some probably from what I see at work.

UtahDan
02-20-2013, 02:39 PM
I was raised Presbyterian, two of my Aunts are/were ordained Presbyterian ministers and most of my family is fairly active.

I was very active, however I no longer attend church and really have no desire to. Some of that is from age and experiences with, some probably from what I see at work.

Okay, that piques my curiosity.

(Is that your Camaro by the way? I love those.)

Diehard Ute
02-20-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.

And yes, that's my Camaro. I need newer pictures. It's been lowered 1.25" and had the Bowtie blacked out since that was taken.

UtahDan
02-20-2013, 02:53 PM
I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.

I'm right there with you. If God does exist, I have a hard time escaping that (1) he doesn't get involved with human beings at all or (2) that he is just as fickle and capricious as the ancient Gods we laugh at now.

480ute
02-20-2013, 03:37 PM
Hello, my name is UtahDan and I am an agnostic atheist. But religion fascinates me.
That's awesome. I say that exact same thing (except the UtahDan part) all the time. Even though I don't believe in a supreme being I have taken religion courses, and love talking to people about their faith.

My childhood was a bit different than a lot of folks here concerning religion. There was absolutely no presence of religion in the home (Bibles, church, talk, etc). Even without being brought up in or around a religion I still held a belief that God existed. I married a somewhat religious girl who happened to come from a VERY devout Christian family; a West Texas Christian family (I feel like that adds some emphasis to the devout part). Within a couple of years I was as hardcore a born again as you could find. I delved into the Bible for the first time in my life. Without going into much further detail, reading through the Bible over the next couple of years is really what made me lose my faith altogether.

My lack of belief in a deity is not an indictment against people of faith. Religion can help people accomplish very good things, and can influence others very negatively. I don't blame a group of people for the actions of any fringe sects. I just wanted to make that clear so that people won't think of me as an angry, religion hating atheist. People of utefans know that I care about freedom of religion as much as freedom of speech.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-20-2013, 04:11 PM
I believe my parents, specifically my Mom did such a good job raising me that I finally found what I believe is best for me in my life. Thanks Mom, even if I didn't end up where you wanted me I am comfortable with it.

- Therapy is your friend.

ADMIRALUTE
02-20-2013, 05:03 PM
Probably no surprise to 480ute as seen in previous UFN posts, I'm a devout non-denominational Christian who believes wholeheartedly in Christ as my Lord and Savior, and stands up for my faith and principles regardless of who criticizes or condemns. Grew up in Utah in a non-religious home, but identified myself with Catholicism due to my mom. My step-mom was Mormon and my dad a non-practicing Jew. My turning point came when I joined the Navy at 22 and born-again later that year, although I had nobody in my life who pointed me in that direction. I was young, dumb, and without direction until God intervened...brought me to my knees and saved me. I was never promised an easy life thereafter and life in many areas became harder; even had my momentary doubts, but the MORE I read His word, the closer I am with Him and even more I believe. I don't judge non-believers nor do I condemn them, but hope all would come to know the God that I do. Growing up in the surroundings and circumstances that I did, I have no business of being a Christian today...unless?????

Ma'ake
02-20-2013, 09:56 PM
Grew up Mormon, decided as a teenager I couldn't "sustain it", went through a wilderness of heavy doubt and anxiety, married a black baptist woman and have since decided religions and their adherents mostly intend to do good. Been to many, many different churches, fascinated by them all, particularly how different cultures view the Devine. (Example: differences in "tone" and emphasis between black baptists and Southern baptists. Very, very different.)

Most powerful religious experience: Shoshone sweat lodge in Wyoming on a bitter cold January night. No peyote, but it was very earnest and moving. Native American religion takes a back seat to nobody, in my book.

Most interesting recent religious discussion: I work with a lot of Hindus. We westerners misunderstand their belief in multiple deities. Underneath the rituals and extensive ideology is a simple, unifying belief system that treats believers in other religions well. I like that.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-20-2013, 10:02 PM
"red star" Chad..........

Hadrian
02-20-2013, 10:21 PM
Atheist. I grew up in a moderately religious Christian family but my parents never pushed it very hard. I don't think I ever fully believed in god, and by the time I was a sophomore in high school I was ready to accept that I was an atheist.

Jarid in Cedar
02-21-2013, 12:00 AM
"red star" Chad..........


Other topic, but where in Idaho, if you care to share?

OrangeUte
02-21-2013, 12:35 AM
Grew up Mormon, decided as a teenager I couldn't "sustain it", went through a wilderness of heavy doubt and anxiety, married a black baptist woman and have since decided religions and their adherents mostly intend to do good. Been to many, many different churches, fascinated by them all, particularly how different cultures view the Devine. (Example: differences in "tone" and emphasis between black baptists and Southern baptists. Very, very different.)

Most powerful religious experience: Shoshone sweat lodge in Wyoming on a bitter cold January night. No peyote, but it was very earnest and moving. Native American religion takes a back seat to nobody, in my book.

Most interesting recent religious discussion: I work with a lot of Hindus. We westerners misunderstand their belief in multiple deities. Underneath the rituals and extensive ideology is a simple, unifying belief system that treats believers in other religions well. I like that.

Ma'ake - how do you go about participating in a sweat lodge ceremony? Do you have to be invited? Are there requirements? I've always been curious about what that is like. A Native American family lived in my ward when i was in high school and they had a sweat lodge they would go to at their grandfather's home. I always wanted to go but never was invited. Is it okay to ask what the experience was like from a spiritual perspective and also from a more mechanical/what happened perspective?

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-21-2013, 06:13 AM
I do care to share. Was raised in the wide open sage infested tundra of SouthEast Idaho. Blackfoot/Moreland area to be more specific, sandwiched inbetween the sprawling metropolis of Pocatello and Idaho Falls. I do so miss it sometimes.

Expat
02-21-2013, 10:53 AM
Sure, I understand it only in generalities, but basically the Second Vatican Council, or Vatican II - which happened long before I converted to Catholicism (from Lutheran) - was an effort to bring the Catholic Church into the 20th century, from the 14th. One of the most noticeable changes was that masses could be spoken in native tongues, no more all Latin, all the time. But there has been a backlash in the Church, and some of the more conservative movements, like Opus Dei, would really, really like to repeal a lot of the progressive changes.

Ma'ake
02-21-2013, 04:44 PM
Ma'ake - how do you go about participating in a sweat lodge ceremony? Do you have to be invited? Are there requirements? I've always been curious about what that is like. A Native American family lived in my ward when i was in high school and they had a sweat lodge they would go to at their grandfather's home. I always wanted to go but never was invited. Is it okay to ask what the experience was like from a spiritual perspective and also from a more mechanical/what happened perspective?


Hey Orange.

I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

(I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.

Devildog
02-21-2013, 05:07 PM
I do care to share. Was raised in the wide open sage infested tundra of SouthEast Idaho. Blackfoot/Moreland area to be more specific, sandwiched inbetween the sprawling metropolis of Pocatello and Idaho Falls. I do so miss it sometimes.

Hey TroutHead, my kid plays U16 travel hockey. Besides Vegas, Phoenix, and other large cities... We've also attended tournaments in Idaho Falls and Salmon (with their outdoor rink and fire-pits).

I enjoy the scenery up there, it's absolutely beautiful. Always a good time.

Ma'ake, that was cool of you to post that. That sounds like a outstanding experience. If I ever get that opportunity, I would take it.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-21-2013, 05:30 PM
Devil, I love the IF area....just go a bit farter north, ignore Sexburg and find yourself in Ashton, St.Anthony, Island Park. MONEY!

LA Ute
02-21-2013, 05:52 PM
Fascinating, uplifting post, Ma'ake. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

midnightversion
02-24-2013, 07:33 AM
I'm not a big believer in God provides or intervenes etc. If he/she really does, I've seen some pretty bad things happen to good people, seems to not fit.

And yes, that's my Camaro. I need newer pictures. It's been lowered 1.25" and had the Bowtie blacked out since that was taken.

I'm of the opinion that God allows bad things to happen to good people because He sees this existence - mortality - in a different light than we do. What may seem tragic to us as mortals will no longer seem tragic once we become immortal, like Him. A tidal wave killing hundreds of people is awful to us, but it also allows hundreds of His children to return to His presence.

What happens on this earth, even to good people, is pretty insignificant when you look at these events with eternity in mind.

Virginia Ute
02-24-2013, 09:36 AM
Excellent post, Maake. That was a very interesting and enlightening read.

UtahDan
02-24-2013, 10:16 AM
Hey Orange.

I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

(I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.

All my relations.

OrangeUte
02-25-2013, 08:34 PM
Hey Orange.

I was lucky enough to be invited, actually it was through work. I work for a healthcare research organization, and we do genetic testing and research on various types of cancer. There was a family on the WindRiver reservation in Wyoming who had a particular type of cancer that is strongly genetically based, so we were referred by a local physician to follow up and provide testing for the extended family - find out who had the genetic mutation (and therefore needed to be on an accelerated screening regimen) and who did not.

Because Native Americans have frequently been on the short end of the stick with regard to interactions with the larger society (even from academic researchers, who in the past have studied them, published their papers, gone on to notoriety, while the Native Americans basically got nothing in return), our Special Populations Outreach Director felt it was important to get the "blessing" of the tribal leaders before we engaged them in doing research and treatment for members of this family who had been plagued by this cancer.

(I'm not a clinician or researcher, I was just the pilot for this trip to Fort Washakie, in a small plane.)

Anyway, so in the sweat lodge there were four of us from SLC, one tribal leader who is a descendent of Chief Washakie, and maybe 5 or 6 other folks from the tribe who had come to receive some blessings, inspiration, etc. I know they have a few scheduled religious ceremonies, like the Sun Dance celebration, but I got the impression these sweats occur on kind of an ad hoc basis, at least among the Eastern Shoshone.

You've probably seen a sweat lodge, but for those who've never seen one, the lodge we entered was a dome-like structure, with about 4 feet of headroom, maybe 15 feet in diameter, fully closed off, like a super-duper sturdy tent that has had several layers of tarps laid over the top. It was a dirt floor, with a pit in the middle. Before we arrived, the tribal leader and his family had been heating up a number of rocks in a fire. They were very hot by the time we arrived, and they started to put some of the rocks into the pit in the middle of the sweat lodge.

It was January, probably about 10 degrees outside or so, and we went into the house and changed into gym shorts and t-shirts, and then entered the sweat lodge and scooted around the outside of the pit, with just a tiny bit of light from the outside (it was night) to help us avoid bumping into each other, or worse, touching the rocks in the pit. Then the tribal leader came in, and had one of his helpers shut the entrance, and it was pitch black.

He welcomed everyone, and was very generous in explaining to the three non-Native Americans among us what the purpose of the sweat ceremony was, etc. Essentially, it is a time to commune with The Creator, to ask for help, to express gratitude, and to support each other. The rocks in the pit were called "grandfather rocks" because as the Earth was created, the rocks were created before us, and it was explained as human beings we are related to everything around us, the other animals, the trees, the grass on the plains, the mountains, the Earth itself, etc.

We went through multiple "rounds", where the tribal leader would offer some words of gratitude, of wisdom, would speak, for example, about how we were all created for a purpose, and we will all return to the Creator, but that life is difficult, and there are many questions to which we don't have answers, and so on, and then there would be some chanting and then they would start to sprinkle water onto the hot rocks, which formed steam, and before long the lodge was really, REALLY hot, uncomfortably hot, and you could very quickly feel yourself sweating profusely, even though it was colder than the balls on a brass monkey just outside. After about 10 minutes of sweating, and contemplation, they would swing open the flap door and let the heat out, which was always a huge relief, because even if you laid down to get out of the heat as much as you could, you were starting to think you might just die in there.

Each round lasted maybe 45 minutes or so, and after a few rounds, the tribal leader said it was time for everyone to have a chance to speak, if they wished, and it became kind of like a fast & testimony meeting. The other people in the lodge who were Shoshone would speak about struggles they were going through, or things they really appreciated, or whatever was on their minds, and instead of saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, amen", the closing statement was "all my relations", meaning all of the things each of us are connected to in ours lives, other people, animals, places, The Creator, etc.

One of my coworkers was LDS, a very nice lady, and at first she was reluctant to participate at all, I guess because this was a religious ceremony not of any Christian tradition. (Jesus was never mentioned, only The Creator) Midway into this five hour sweat, she decided to come into the lodge and participate, and by the time it was her turn to speak, she was very moved, and tearfully said she was so thankful to be able to feel everyone else's spirit and the love that was in the lodge, and so on. What she said was pretty much what everyone else was thinking, it was a bonding experience and an inspirational experience like none that I've been a part of. It was a moving experience for everyone, lots of tears and crackling voices.

Anyway, by the time we were done, it was about 10p, and we were pretty dehydrated, so we drank a lot of water, ate some food and drove back to the airplane to fly back to SLC. Everyone was spent, and nobody said much, but we all looked at each other and knew we'd just been through something we'd never forget.

I remember as a kid thinking about the Native Americans, the "Lamanites", and wondering what they'd done in the pre-existence to be plagued by the problems they faced, and their brown skin, etc. We were taught that they were unrighteous, and as Spencer Kimball noted, their skin would become lighter once they began to become more righteous. (I realize that's not what is taught now, but that's pretty much the teachings I grew up with.)

Anyway, after being in the Shoshone sweat lodge, flying back to SLC I was thinking "these people have a very strong, genuine understanding of their place in the universe and a rock solid faith in the Creator. They aren't to be pitied - they are to be admired. Nobody has anything on them, in terms of religious or spiritual authenticity." Certainly Native Americans have struggles, pretty much like everyone else has struggles. Europeans and Africans have the benefit of having been around alcohol for maybe 10,000 years, we used it as a preservative, and found out there were other "effects", as well. Other populations don't have the liver enzymes to metabolize alcohol like we do, and there's definitely a strong effect, not just with Native Americans, but other groups, like Polynesians, some Asian groups, etc. That's just their biology. Everyone and every group has issues. That's part of the purpose of life.

Ma'ake - that is more than I was hoping for when I asked you, and incredibly more moving and thoughtful than anything that I think I have ever read on a message board or heard in a worship service of anykind. I am grateful to you for explaining your experiernceand for sharing so much detail.

I have always been interested in religion and how it impacts our view of the world around us. I served my mission in South Africa where the native Africans are incredible tied to their ancestors in their worship. Often, that belief was a punchline, but I thought it was beautiful to be so connected to your ancestors that you believed they were part of you, part of the world around you, and part of something great to be worshipped. I believe that trying to tie ourselves to something around us - the world, our relations, our talents - is the primary goal of religion... We need to learn to be part of something greater than ourselves and to appreciate the many roles that we and others play in the universe. It isn't about positions and powers - it is about understanding and appreciating.

Man, my mind is asking questions... I am curious about this... As for the sweat lodge - did you think that the mutual suffering helped you to understand and appreciate each other more for what you were experiencing and going through? Is that what made it so intense on a personal level, or was it more than that? It is interesting that you were able to go in completely open-minded as opposed to the associate who was a devout mormon... She hestitated and then once she realized that there was an experience to be had, she let down her guard and realized that the beauty of the moment was to connect with those around her and appreciate our shared experiences... What is it about religion that seems so scared of new and different experiences?

SeattleUte
02-25-2013, 09:33 PM
My religion is kindness.

Uncle Ted
02-26-2013, 06:06 AM
My religion is kindness.

203

Cool... You and the Dalai Lama have the same religion. So you got that goin' for you, which is nice.

Jarid in Cedar
02-26-2013, 06:24 AM
I'm of the opinion that God allows bad things to happen to good people because He sees this existence - mortality - in a different light than we do. What may seem tragic to us as mortals will no longer seem tragic once we become immortal, like Him. A tidal wave killing hundreds of people is awful to us, but it also allows hundreds of His children to return to His presence.

What happens on this earth, even to good people, is pretty insignificant when you look at these events with eternity in mind.

This post is excellent. I don't believe in an interventional God (for different reasons than MV), but this rationale is similar to mine.

hostile
02-26-2013, 07:48 AM
Devil, I love the IF area....just go a bit farter north, ignore Sexburg and find yourself in Ashton, St.Anthony, Island Park. MONEY!
My mom is from St Anthony. I spent every summer as a kid on Henry's Fork. What great memories. I feel guilty that I don't make time to give my kids the same experience.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-26-2013, 08:05 AM
Hostile, if you get a chance get your kids up there..........really a magical place. As you know.

UtahDan
02-26-2013, 08:56 AM
This post is excellent. I don't believe in an interventional God (for different reasons than MV), but this rationale is similar to mine.

Can you elaborate?

Jarid in Cedar
02-26-2013, 01:48 PM
This post is excellent. I don't believe in an interventional God (for different reasons than MV), but this rationale is similar to mine.


Can you elaborate?


I am an agnostic that believes that God probably exists. Someone made a comment in SU's thread about the big bang and nothingness, that this was the biggest hurdle for Atheists to tackle. Why is there something(the big bang) versus nothing. Why matter versus nothingness. To me it points to forces beyond human understanding(and there may be some understanding with future scientific discovery).

So for that reason, I feel that there is a creator's hand in the initiation of the universe. I don't believe that this creator intervenes in the lives of living beings. Whereas MV said that this was because that which we view as a tragedy, God views as an opportunity to return some of his children. I believe that tragedy is the natural consequences of the physics and chemistry that make our world possible. In my view, God doesn't intervene to prevent sorrow, he may comfort those in sorrow, much the way we as parents comfort our children when they are in pain, or upset. But we don't intervene at every opportunity so our kids avoid dissappointment, etc(I understand that some parents are helicopter parents, but I think we can all agree to the damage that this behavior causes.)

Philosiphers and common people search for reason. Why do we exist? Why are we here? I think that we(as humans) try to make it complicated. We are here to exist, to experience, to discover. "Man is that he might have joy". That doesn't mean that joy is a given.

UtahDan
02-26-2013, 01:55 PM
I am an agnostic that believes that God probably exists. Someone made a comment in SU's thread about the big bang and nothingness, that this was the biggest hurdle for Atheists to tackle. Why is there something(the big bang) versus nothing. Why matter versus nothingness. To me it points to forces beyond human understanding(and there may be some understanding with future scientific discovery).

So for that reason, I feel that there is a creator's hand in the initiation of the universe. I don't believe that this creator intervenes in the lives of living beings. Whereas MV said that this was because that which we view as a tragedy, God views as an opportunity to return some of his children. I believe that tragedy is the natural consequences of the physics and chemistry that make our world possible. In my view, God doesn't intervene to prevent sorrow, he may comfort those in sorrow, much the way we as parents comfort our children when they are in pain, or upset. But we don't intervene at every opportunity so our kids avoid dissappointment, etc(I understand that some parents are helicopter parents, but I think we can all agree to the damage that this behavior causes.)

Philosiphers and common people search for reason. Why do we exist? Why are we here? I think that we(as humans) try to make it complicated. We are here to exist, to experience, to discover. "Man is that he might have joy". That doesn't mean that joy is a given.

Thanks for the response. The part in bold is an effort to tackle theodicy. I don't think it is in the spirit of this thread to necessarily get into it here, so I might start another. It is a fascinating topic.

hostile
02-26-2013, 09:31 PM
Hostile, if you get a chance get your kids up there..........really a magical place. As you know.

Every summer we do a boy's trip just north of Island Park. My family still owns my grandmother's house on main street in St Anthony. The back yard slopes right down to the river; like you said, magical. I just don't get there enough. My dad is from closer to your neck of the woods, Aberdeen to be exact. Being 6'6" able to shoot a basketball was his ticket to the U.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-26-2013, 09:38 PM
That is awesome hostile, I have probably floated past your grandma's house a few times. There is a some crazy rapids and hazards right in the town of St. Anthony a lot of the river is a nice easy float.

Where "north of IP" do you go? I spend a couple weeks each summer up in the IP.

Ahhhh, "Scaberdeen" the Tigers........

hostile
02-26-2013, 09:51 PM
That is awesome hostile, I have probably floated past your grandma's house a few times. There is a some crazy rapids and hazards right in the town of St. Anthony a lot of the river is a nice easy float.

Where "north of IP" do you go? I spend a couple weeks each summer up in the IP.

Ahhhh, "Scaberdeen" the Tigers........

A buddy of mine has a family cabin just off the Yale-Kilgore road, just south of Mack's Inn and near the continental divide. It's an old ranch cabin without electricity or heat. Water is from a spring. Basically we eat, shoot, fish, stay up late and BS.

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-26-2013, 09:58 PM
That sounds like a good time...a damn good time. I know where that area is.

cald22well
08-16-2013, 03:48 PM
Nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I'm new, so it's new to me!

I am atheist. Some people may classify me as agnostic atheist because I don't claim to know that no diety exists. But, I personally feel that the burden of proof so to speak is on anyone claiming that something is true. Since I don't have any reason to beleive in it, I keep the agnostic off.

A little bit about my religious journey. I was born into an LDS family-in a sense. I say that because both of my parents were raised mormon, but were never active during my life. With that said though, I always felt a pressure from my extended family. I was baptized when I was 9 because I felt it is what I was supposed to do. As I got older, I realized that I didn't believe in what I was being taught. Seminary is actually one of the main reasons that I no longer believe. I tried a few times to go to various Christian churches, but ultimately decided that I simply didn't believe. My junior and senior year of high school I studied various religions, mostly Buddhism, looking for something different. Needless to say, I never found it.

With all of that said, I still firmly believe that every religion has something to offer. I do my best to learn about all religions and how they view the world. I am also very interested in peoples different views of faith, even within the same religion. Currently, I am wishing to study the Koran, but want to have someone that practices so that I can ask them questions. If any of you know of anyone of the Islamic faith that would be open to this, please let me know.

Anywho, if you are curious about anything from my journey, current family/religion situation, or beliefs, feel free to ask.

jrj84105
08-17-2013, 12:44 PM
OK, my turn. This will be long and uncomfortably personal.
I was raised the oldest kid in a multigenerational Mormon family with parents that were somewhat adjusting to living in a non-Mormon part of the country. I would say that as transplants, our social circle mostly consisted of other church members. It was an area that was having pretty substantial population decline, and many of the Mormons in the area, who were transplants like us, were moving back West, meaning a lot of ward consolidations, redivisions, and branch closings. One branch that merged with my ward was closed because of police having to respond to fistfights at the chapel a few times. With the shortage of members, there where a lot of very undeserving people receiving callings, and they seemed to be primary teachers. Among the loads of bad doctrine I was taught, the worst offender (one of the people from the family feud that produced the fistfights) told me that my mom had shared with the relief society her patriartical blessing that said that she would be called back to heaven before the second coming and that, because I was from a "chosen generation" and it was the last days, that meant my mom was going to die pretty soon. That messed with my head quite a lot, enough that from about the age of 8-12 I would get physically sick after church, especially after "end days" heavy fast and testimony meetings, and sometimes had panic attacks when my mom was late getting home from places. I was sort of a weird kid for that period.

When I was 12, my dad was called to be the branch president in a small community about an hour from our house as there were no longer any worther priesthood holders there. (As an aside this was sort of interesting. With declining membership, I think the donations had dried up an our chapel was in pretty bad shape. The threadbare orange carpet was mostly held together with duct tape. Finally the bishropric members, including my dad, just paid for new carpet and replaced it themselves. They were all summarily released with new ward boundaries placing the bishop in one ward, the first counselor in another, and my dad out in the branch). So my dad was the branch president, and I was the Aaronic priesthood. He blessed the sacrament, and I passed it every week, sometimes helping an adult member who would transiently be worthy enough to become a deacon or teacher, but these never lasted. We had a lot of discussions on these long drives to and from church, and basically all my issues sort of resolved on their own and I quit being such a neurotic puking kid. Also, being away from my friends at church made me be a little bit more open to closer friendships at school which was a very positive thing for me. Then the branch closed and it was back to the old ward.

I don't know if you can believe in evil as an agnostic atheist, but our teacher's quorum adviser/scout master was at the minimum a very, very bad person, but I've already alluded to that previously. I was doing my ealy mornng seminary and was just really struggling for the first time to believe any of it, but was trying very hard with lots of prayer. One weekend, my family was assigned to clean out the church library. Out of curiosity I popped in an old VHS tape. It was an old black and white copy of a film reel circa 1950-1960 with some church authority talking to a bunch of primary children. When he started calling them "the chosen generation" I just started laughing and sort of happy crying. At that time, I felt like it was the answer to my prayers, a recognition that I'd been fed a load of crap and didn't need to be burdened by it any more. I quit church that day, and it is still about as happy as I've ever felt.

I spent the next 10 years exploring other religions and schools of thought, but in the end, they were all too complicated and ended up with too big of internal contradictions to make it past my BS filter. Without religion, I still felt the same reward from doing good things and the same guilt for doing bad things and realized that my internal definition of the concepts of good and bad were as good as any that I'd come across. So I just quit thinking about god, and went about my business. Then in my late 20's, with a lot of reservations considering my previous experiences with church, I moved to Utah for post graduate training. After exploring being a Methodist, a Lutheran, a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, a Buddhist, an animist, and what have you, I realized that I was an agnostic atheist ex-Mormon with a somewhat tenuous relationship with the culture and faith I was raised in. It turns out that's a thing, and it's really nice to find out that other people are in the same boat.

Jarid in Cedar
08-17-2013, 01:00 PM
Cald22well and jrj,

I appreciate the journeys that you have both shared. I have a few thoughts for both of you that I will post later tonight. The hospital calleth and she is a mistress that cannot be ignored.

LA Ute
08-17-2013, 02:38 PM
Cald22well and jrj,

I appreciate the journeys that you have both shared. I have a few thoughts for both of you that I will post later tonight. The hospital calleth and she is a mistress that cannot be ignored.

Ditto. I enjoyed your posts. I am a Kool-Aid drinking Mormon believer (but still am a guy who could never live happily in Utah County or many parts of Utah, if that tells you anything), but I like to be around thinking, decent people of any belief system. It's one reason I am so attached to the U. of U.

cald22well
08-17-2013, 04:30 PM
I spent the next 10 years exploring other religions and schools of thought, but in the end, they were all too complicated and ended up with too big of internal contradictions to make it past my BS filter. Without religion, I still felt the same reward from doing good things and the same guilt for doing bad things and realized that my internal definition of the concepts of good and bad were as good as any that I'd come across. So I just quit thinking about god, and went about my business. Then in my late 20's, with a lot of reservations considering my previous experiences with church, I moved to Utah for post graduate training. After exploring being a Methodist, a Lutheran, a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, a Buddhist, an animist, and what have you, I realized that I was an agnostic atheist ex-Mormon with a somewhat tenuous relationship with the culture and faith I was raised in. It turns out that's a thing, and it's really nice to find out that other people are in the same boat.

This was a very big thing for me as well. In some ways, I almost felt like I was a better mormon after I accepted that I didn't believe any of it. I had found peace and could just live my life. Thank you so much for sharing. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one that has gone through a similar journey.

Ex'dute
08-17-2013, 04:56 PM
This was a very big thing for me as well. In some ways, I almost felt like I was a better mormon after I accepted that I didn't believe any of it. I had found peace and could just live my life. Thank you so much for sharing. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one that has gone through a similar journey.

I spent 30+ years as a "Kool-Aid drinking Mormon" (to quote LA Ute). I did the mission thing, married in the temple like I was supposed to, helped countless families move as a member of an elders' quorum, served in young men's presidencies (on the ward and stake level) and was even a counselor in a bisphopric when I lost my faith.

I often remembered hearing people say (even myself) something akin to "I don't know what I would do without the Church. It makes me a better person than I would be without it." It's almost like some Mormons worry that they would be axe-murdering psycopaths if they ever quit going to a 3-hour block of extremely boring meetings every Sunday.

Let me just add to jrj and cald's "testimonies" that with or without the LDS Church (or any religion), you will still be the same person. I have extreme doubts about deity now -- I guess I would be considered agnostic -- but I still am a generally nice, charitable person and a good father and a contributor to society.

Plus, now I have Sundays off to watch the NFL and can give more generously to the Crimson Club since I'm not donating 10 percent of my income to a different Salt Lake City-based institution!

jrj84105
08-19-2013, 03:20 PM
It's almost like some Mormons worry that they would be axe-murdering psycopaths if they ever quit going to a 3-hour block of extremely boring meetings every Sunday.

Plus, now I have Sundays off to watch the NFL and can give more generously to the Crimson Club since I'm not donating 10 percent of my income to a different Salt Lake City-based institution!
This brings up one of my biggest struggles as an atheist. I think there this a fundamental human need to have transcendent experiences now and again- to experience awe, wonder, humility, and thankfulness. Without that devoted block of time on Sunday, it can be easy to forget to set time aside to meet this need.

mUUser
08-19-2013, 03:50 PM
This brings up one of my biggest struggles as an atheist. I think there this a fundamental human need to have transcendent experiences now and again- to experience awe, wonder, humility, and thankfulness. Without that devoted block of time on Sunday, it can be easy to forget to set time aside to meet this need.

Hold your sleeping child or watch a sunrise/sunset. I'd think an agnostic could regularly experience all those things you mentioned without formal church. No?

jrj84105
08-19-2013, 04:23 PM
Hold your sleeping child or watch a sunrise/sunset. I'd think an agnostic could regularly experience all those things you mentioned without formal church. No?
Absolutely, and I think stepping away from a religious discipline that isn't working for you instantly opens your eyes to all the possibilities you've been missing.

At the same time, I think you have to really consciously make an effort to go into that sort of mindset of quiet and reverence. Church does a really nice job of easing you into that with opening songs and prayer and such, so you have to find a system that works for you. These moments require a little bit of time protected from your other duties and obligations. I sometimes feel selfish in this respect, but I'm a better person if I take care of those needs.

Jarid in Cedar
08-19-2013, 11:53 PM
I would probably best characterize myself as agnostic who feels that there is more likely a god than not. I guess I haven't been able to get past the nothingness becoming something/matter. I always get stuck on "the beginning" what brought it on, what triggered it. That is also one of the problems that I had with the whole "God was like us, was once mortal and was given a planet". It all had to start with someone.

For myself, the journey from inactive/indifferent to active to inactive to out the door has been a roller coaster. I was not immersed in churchdom as a child/teen. I held an indifferent view of the doctrine and tenets. I did not really question the "truthfulness" of the church as I had more important things to do. But once I met the future Mrs. JIC, it was readily apparent how this was going to go down. But, given that I hadn't really questioned anything about church history/doctrine, etc, I easily just accepted and moved along. But once immersed in the culture of the church, I could tell that I was a fish out of water. The rest of this journey is predictable. It almost cost me my marriage, but we have weathered that storm.

cald22well
08-20-2013, 12:56 PM
I'm glad to hear that your marriage has made it through JIC. Similar religious views is one of the single most important factors in a relationship for me. My non-wife comes from a Catholic family, and I know that if she were a strict practicing Catholic, we probably wouldn't be together. I know many couples that one person is religious and the other is not, or they practice different religions. I look at them and just wonder how? Especially the ones with kids. This especially boggles me with familes in which one parent is active LDS with how important families are.

I am curious as to how other people feel about having similar religious views as a partner for those that are willing to share. Anyone else on here have a spouse that is religious while they are not, or vice versa?

Joe Public
08-22-2013, 03:03 PM
I'm glad to hear that your marriage has made it through JIC. Similar religious views is one of the single most important factors in a relationship for me. My non-wife comes from a Catholic family, and I know that if she were a strict practicing Catholic, we probably wouldn't be together. I know many couples that one person is religious and the other is not, or they practice different religions. I look at them and just wonder how? Especially the ones with kids. This especially boggles me with familes in which one parent is active LDS with how important families are.

I am curious as to how other people feel about having similar religious views as a partner for those that are willing to share. Anyone else on here have a spouse that is religious while they are not, or vice versa?

I think a lot of it comes down to what takes higher priority in a person's life.

Where I was raised, I knew lots of families with mixed religious backgrounds (i.e., mother and father raised in different religions). In almost every case, they just picked one or the other and went with it as a family. It was more important for them to participate together than to be in any particular denomination. The few exceptions tried to balance both religions and integrate both into family life. They seemed to pull what they liked from each and enjoyed the richness of diversity.

Most - though certainly not all - of the people I've known in LDS circles who initially marry within the faith but then experience a change in one spouse's beliefs have a very hard time with that. I think it has to do with LDS beliefs/cultural values regarding the LDS church being the one true church of God and people placing church adherence/activity/membership as a higher priority than a spousal relationship. No situation is alike, of course, but it seems to be a somewhat common thread.

Irving Washington
08-22-2013, 04:42 PM
I'm a card carrying atheist, but my religious upbringing has been very important to who I am. Much of my moral/ethical foundation comes from the religion I was raised in (with some tweaks.) Many Christians look down upon the Unitarian Church, but many of it humanistic foundations are the best of the majority of Christian religions. I have sat in on some religious services, and heard sermons where all I had to do was substitute a few words and exclude the references to God, and they were powerful and rewarding.

Ma'ake
08-24-2013, 09:16 AM
Anyone else on here have a spouse that is religious while they are not, or vice versa?

I'm non-religious, but a believer in a higher power. I grew up LDS, but had serious doubts when I was a teenager and decided I couldn't believe in the LDS truth claims anymore, based on the issues I had problems with (blacks & the priesthood, Lamanites becoming lighter skinned with righteousness). I found my own way and have not really looked back, and the availability of mountains of information about Mormonism on the Internet have confirmed my hunch from back in the late '70s. Fortunately, there has been a lot of change in LDS beliefs on race (which is good - no, it's fantastic - since I married an African American woman and still live in Utah).

For many years I went to church with my wife, to her black Baptist church, and it was a very rewarding experience, over all. They were very strong on the spirit and strongly oriented toward forgiveness and God's mercy, which was quite different than the "tone" at Southern Baptist churches we sometimes attended because they were closer. At that point I learned that much of what is taught and conveyed at church is based on culture: many blacks had experienced serious hardship (sometimes self-induced) and were thus focused on God's mercy and forgiveness, while the white Baptists were more oriented toward God's judgment, justice, and punishment, etc. The difference was striking, and kind of unnerving, but it helped me understand how religions can be so different.

I had learned to take the scriptural aspect of church with heavy, heavy amounts of salt, as scriptures are written by men, in different time periods, different circumstances, different cultures, and the interpretation of scripture evolves through time, as well, sometimes to be almost unrecognizable between eras. Example: during the slavery debate in our nation, the pro-slavery side argued the Bible sanctioned slavery, and the abolitionists really didn't have an answer to that point. Today, nobody believes that the Bible sanctions slavery.

In the LDS world, the racial stuff was very strongly believed and thought to be the absolute truth, with Brigham Young proclaiming that blacks would never have the priesthood until everyone else on Earth had a chance to accept the gospel, and Spencer Kimball claimed that Navajo kids who came up to school in Utah were visibly more righteous because in photographs when they went home their skin was lighter than their siblings and parents. (We now know this is from something called "winter".) Today, if you ask a young Mormon about these earlier teachings they have no idea what you're talking about, essentially they look at you as though you're fabricating lies about their church. So, things change through time.... a LOT.

And my circumstance has changed, too. Living in Bountiful, one of my sons decided to become LDS, and my wife recently converted and is devout. (Did I mention I'm glad the LDS views on race have taken a sharp turn away from previous beliefs?) Something resonates with them, which I respect. I used to believe much of the same things they do, although I've moved on and now take a more critical eye to what I previously believed, though in truth it occupies less and less of my consciousness over time, as I focus on just understanding and accepting other people, offer support and help where I can, and I derive my spiritual sustenance through nature, I'm a hiking & snow-shoeing fanatic, and have had many profound experiences in nature.

Being in a split religion marriage is not without challenges, though I understand the LDS mentality quite well - which helps me to not be offended get really pissed off - and the subsequent social pressure for me to come back into the fold and get sealed with my wife and son, and presumably pull the other kids into the church, as well.

I've tried to take the high road, and explained that I believe in the Hindu belief that there are multiple good paths in life, paths back to the divine, and that I see Mormonism is a respectable, good path. When I feel the pressure from them, I point out that I respect their path, and really wish they would respect mine, truly live the Golden Rule.

There's not really a good answer to that challenge for Mormons, as they're oriented toward converting others, and their world view necessarily looks down on other religions and other choices people have made, but pointing out their inability to reciprocate the respect I have for their path has kept them off my case for a few months now. Hopefully this "détente" lasts for a while.

I think they probably felt since my son and wife converted, it was only a matter of apologizing for some assumed past insult for me to break down and come humbly and joyously back into the fold, or whatever. I'm quite a ways past that possibility. Or, if I talk about the spirit resonating with me from the words of the Shoshone medicine man, they realize I'm so lost that it's a hopeless cause to reclaim me. (It's quite odd the lengths that have been gone to to try and bring me back in - pseudo-offers to be in the bishopric, etc. It's kind of flattering, but it really is an example of the gift of discernment being wildly off the mark, by people at the Stake President level.)

Since I left Mormonism I've found my own path, and have had lots of fulfilling, transcendent experiences, in a wide variety of settings, so I'm completely comfortable in my own skin, and have no doubts whatsoever about whether I made the right choice or not. And understanding the LDS mentality has helped me not be offended as they try different approaches at getting me back into the church. They mean well, they see the world a specific way, and while I express my respect for them, and support my wife and son in their direction, in order to return to that religion I would have to deny the truths I've learned since deciding to leave Mormonism. I told my wife "I would have to be fraud, an actor, to come back and pretend I believe that stuff. I don't think anyone wants that." She respects that, and things are working well, at this point. I love my son, and support him in his direction, but I kind of feel sorry for him, because he (naturally) wants our family to be together for eternity, etc. I've explained to him that I already strongly believe that's going to be case, and a temple ordinance doesn't change that. Still, he worries, and prays for me. It's hard to be angry with people who pray for you.

LA Ute
08-24-2013, 09:19 AM
I'm a card carrying atheist, but my religious upbringing has been very important to who I am. Much of my moral/ethical foundation comes from the religion I was raised in (with some tweaks.) Many Christians look down upon the Unitarian Church, but many of it humanistic foundations are the best of the majority of Christian religions. I have sat in on some religious services, and heard sermons where all I had to do was substitute a few words and exclude the references to God, and they were powerful and rewarding.

I don't believe you carry an atheist card.

concerned
08-24-2013, 10:01 AM
I don't believe you carry an atheist card.


its fake. he uses it to get senior discounts at hotels and motels.