The Talent Upgrade Thread

[LA Ute]

This is a thread that is kind of like the recruiting thread, but is more focused on what the Utes' specific needs are and how we are doing at filling them.

From what everyone has been saying, in order to compete in the PAC-12 it looks like right now we mainly need:



Speed at WR (and players who can catch the ball - a function of good hands and maybe a little size if we can get it);
Speed in the secondary -- both DBs and LBs; and
Offensive tackles with size.


I thought it might be kind of fun to focus our discussions a bit. Feel free to add categories of your own.

[U-Ute]

In order of importance:

- QB. I believe in a healthy Wilson, but we need depth we can groom.
- LB. We are stout against the run, but our coverage against the talented tight ends and slot receivers in the league is telling.
- OL. Specifically tackles that can handle the talented ends in pass protection.
- WR. Depth.
- DB. Depth.

I feel like the only position we don't have a fire at is DL.

[Diehard Ute]

Size at both DB and WR...as in size that's talented.

We need to stop with the 5'9" guys. It's not working.

[jrj84105]

Size at both DB and WR...as in size that's talented.

We need to stop with the 5'9" guys. It's not working.
Well, we just lost a DB recruit to WSU which will hop them ahead of us in the recruiting rankings. That puts us at #11 in conference now. We entered the PAC routinely recruiting ahead of Arizona, OSU, WSU, and Colorado.

[GarthUte]

Size at both DB and WR...as in size that's talented.

We need to stop with the 5'9" guys. It's not working.

To get size at DB, particularly at CB, KW will have to convert receivers to that position as he did with Sean Smith. High school coaches play their tallest kids with speed at receiver. I understand why they do it, but a tall kid who grew up playing CB is rare.

[Diehard Ute]

To get size at DB, particularly at CB, KW will have to convert receivers to that position as he did with Sean Smith. High school coaches play their tallest kids with speed at receiver. I understand why they do it, but a tall kid who grew up playing CB is rare.

And that's really why coaches have to recruit athletes at some positions rather than what they've played. We lack size and strength in our secondary. It's painfully obvious.

[SeattleUte]

This is a thread that is kind of like the recruiting thread, but is more focused on what the Utes' specific needs are and how we are doing at filling them.

From what everyone has been saying, in order to compete in the PAC-12 it looks like right now we mainly need:



Speed at WR (and players who can catch the ball - a function of good hands and maybe a little size if we can get it);
Speed in the secondary -- both DBs and LBs; and
Offensive tackles with size.


I thought it might be kind of fun to focus our discussions a bit. Feel free to add categories of your own.

:confused: We don't need a quarterback?

I know everyone is high on last season's quarterback recruits. But on paper they've got nothing on what Whit has recruited in the past. In fact, Wilson, Blechen, Wynn, Griff Robles, and Tyler Shreve all were higher rated by ESPN and Rivals. Look them up. The Internet enables you to make these comparisons.

[USS Utah]

So much for recruiting rankings.

[concerned]

Lya's blog is right on point. The discouraging thing is that most of the skill players we need upgrade from at this point are Pac 12 recruits; not MWC recruits. Nothing suggests that a purported Pac 12 recruiting bump is gong to solve the problem.

[LA Ute]

:confused: We don't need a quarterback?

I know everyone is high on last season's quarterback recruits. But on paper they've got nothing on what Whit has recruited in the past. In fact, Wilson, Blechen, Wynn, Griff Robles, and Tyler Shreve all were higher rated by ESPN and Rivals. Look them up. The Internet enables you to make these comparisons.

I left QB out because we seem better off there. Still, jrj84105 is right: the QBs we've recruited are a mixed bag as to capabilities and playing style.

[sancho]

:confused: We don't need a quarterback?


I'm sure if a 5 star recruit approaches tomorrow, we'll take him. Otherwise, we are doing what programs like us have to do - grab a few 3 star guys and hope for the best. We certainly can't spend more than a few scholarships per recruiting cycle on QBs.

[SeattleUte]

Lya's blog is right on point. The discouraging thing is that most of the skill players we need upgrade from at this point are Pac 12 recruits; not MWC recruits. Nothing suggests that a purported Pac 12 recruiting bump is gong to solve the problem.

We've talked a lot about Utah's recruiting challenges. Recruiting is extremely important but it's not everything. Over the past five years, USC has outrecruited everyone in the Pac 12 -- nearly the nation -- and look where it stands in the South. ASU's recruiting has not been hugely superior to Utah's. But here's what it takes to compete with USC and Oregon and even ASU and Washington -- superior coaching at every level. We saw in the past that Utah had a system (that probably goes back before Whit) whereby the best athlete is recruited regardless of position, nearly every recruit is redshirted, players are brought along slowly (especially quarterbacks), great coaching occurs, missions add a couple of years of maturity, and the coaches count on the late bloomers with big upside in their fourth or fifth year matching the the execution of USC's young studs.

But this system, which may be Utah's only option, is like managing a vineyard. It takes unsurpassed attention to detail and hard work. One bad grape crop is potentially catastrophic for the whole operation. Whit needs to be more assiduous than USC in assembling a coaching staff and maintaining continuity. The wtf hires, repeated turnover, inexperienced assistants and lack of contuity may be the crux of the problem, in my opinion.

What a shame that Chow decided to go retire as Hawaii's head coach.

[Diehard Ute]

Disagree. The same was hiring Chow in the first place.

[SoCalPat]

Disagree. The same was hiring Chow in the first place.

Nonsense. Chow leaving led to Brian's hiring as OC, which was the first real sign Kyle was cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I cannot even begin to fathom how Pac-12 coaches used that as ammunition against the skill players we've recruited the last 2 years.

[Diehard Ute]

Nonsense. Chow leaving led to Brian's hiring as OC, which was the first real sign Kyle was cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. I cannot even begin to fathom how Pac-12 coaches used that as ammunition against the skill players we've recruited the last 2 years.

You're failing to understand how Chow's hiring affected the program. He was universally disliked by coaches and players alike.

He never should have been hired. His hiring and departure did damage to the program and led to future hiring problems. Eliminate his hiring and you likely eliminate both problems.

[SoCalPat]

You're failing to understand how Chow's hiring affected the program. He was universally disliked by coaches and players alike.

He never should have been hired. His hiring and departure did damage to the program and led to future hiring problems. Eliminate his hiring and you likely eliminate both problems.

Chow has delivered everywhere he's been in the college game, is a former alum, was a coach at BYU when Kyle played there and did more with less at Utah in 2011 than any offensive coordinator before or since. I don't know who your source is inside the locker room or program, but I hope he's part of Kyle's inevitable housecleaning. Anyone who took sides against Chow before or during his time at Utah is not someone I want involved with Utah football. It's an indefensible position to take.

[SeattleUte]

Chow has delivered everywhere he's been in the college game, is a former alum, was a coach at BYU when Kyle played there and did more with less at Utah in 2011 than any offensive coordinator before or since. I don't know who your source is inside the locker room or program, but I hope he's part of Kyle's inevitable housecleaning. Anyone who took sides against Chow before or during his time at Utah is not someone I want involved with Utah football. It's an indefensible position to take.

And he didn't do Brian any good.

Diehard's comment is the first time I've heard anything negative about Chow's time there. It's understandable how that hiring might rankle some younger coaches. But I agree with what you suggest about how a promising young coach would be patient and learn from Chow. Long after Chow is gone from this profession he'll be regarded as one of the great college OCs of his time.

[mpfunk]

Chow was an absolutely great hire by Utah. It was unfortunate that he only stayed one year. Chow wasn't the reason that Whittingham made the horrible decision to hire BJ as the OC the following season.

[SeattleUte]

I think that except for that awful stumble at home against Colorado, Chow's year as OC was the last season where we all said Whit and his staff did a hell of a job, alebeit they did a hell of a job overcoming loss of their starting qb and plugging that hole with a walk on from a tiny college that had discontinued football.

[LA Ute]

Here's a question I've had for some time, and I am sure others here have thoughts and information:

Why do we recruit so many skill players who are notably small? Looking at our roster, we have 9 players who are 5'9" or shorter (and having seen some of them up close I suspect we are fudging on their height):

RBs:

D. Young
McCormick
Radley

WRs:

Hatfield
Hinson
McClellon
Norwood
Towns

DBs:

Freeman
Henderson
Thomas
Walker

These guys are downright short. I'm mainly curious about the guys who will spend their time in space in the secondary, either as WRs or DBs. Is this profile typical in the PAC-12? Would we like to have bigger guys like Kenneth Scott (6'3", 210 lbs.)? I assume we would. Are we just getting beaten out for bigger skill players, so we have to settle for these smaller guys?

[UBlender]

Here's a question I've had for some time, and I am sure others here have thoughts and information:

Why do we recruit so many skill players who are notably small? Looking at our roster, we have 9 players who are 5'9" or shorter (and having sen some of them up close I suspect we are fudging on their height):

RBs:

D. Young
McCormick
Radley

WRs:

Hatfield
Hinson
McClellon
Norwood
Towns

DBs:

Freeman
Henderson
Thomas
Walker

These guys are downright short. I'm mainly curious about the guys who will spend their time in space in the secondary, either as WRs or DBs. Is this profile typical in the PAC-12? Would we like to have bigger guys like Kenneth Scott (6'3", 210 lbs.)? I assume we would. Are we just getting beaten out for bigger skill players, so we have to settle for these smaller guys?

At least three of your WRs listed are walk-ons so that may alter the dynamic a little bit.

Another comment I would make is that finding CBs with good size that have the speed and flexibility/shiftiness to play corner is almost impossible. Many of those types that are over 6' are put on offense (if they can catch). Utah has had a long run of great CBs--the only two I can think of who would be considered "big" CBs are Sean Smith and McGill, both of whom were recruited at other positions and converted to CB.

Having said all of that, I have been thinking a little bit of the same this week. We talk about speed, speed, speed. Is there a chance we need to look for fast guys who are just a step slower but a few inches taller (WR is the main position where I wonder about this)? Maybe instead of a 4.3 guy that is 5'8" we need to look for more 4.4/4.5 guys who are 6'1"?

[sancho]

Having said all of that, I have been thinking a little bit of the same this week. We talk about speed, speed, speed. Is there a chance we need to look for fast guys who are just a step slower but a few inches taller (WR is the main position where I wonder about this)? Maybe instead of a 4.3 guy that is 5'8" we need to look for more 4.4/4.5 guys who are 6'1"?

4.4 guys who are 6'1" have offer sheets a mile long. We'll keep offering, and hopefully we'll get some, but these guys don't grow on trees.

[LA Ute]

4.4 guys who are 6'1" have offer sheets a mile long. We'll keep offering, and hopefully we'll get some, but these guys don't grow on trees.

That's pretty much what I've always thought. We make do with little guys because that's what we can get. Maybe over time we will be able to get more Kenneth Scotts.

[sancho]

That's pretty much what I've always thought. We make do with little guys because that's what we can get. Maybe over time we will be able to get more Kenneth Scotts.

There's hope - somehow CU got Paul Richardson. 6'1" and the best WR in the conference not named Lee.

[crazyute]

There's hope - somehow CU got Paul Richardson. 6'1" and the best WR in the conference not named Lee.
I see what you are saying but I would argue ty montgomery

[sancho]

I see what you are saying but I would argue ty montgomery

A case can be made for Cooks too. I think PRich has been amazing, considering who's throwing him the ball.

[Brian]

is there a 3-4 deep roster somewhere?

I see this: http://utah.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp
Is there something better?

[U-Ute]

I see what you are saying but I would argue ty montgomery

Stevonne Smith.

[crazyute]

Stevonne Smith.
steve smith plays in the pac12?

[UTEopia]

is there a 3-4 deep roster somewhere?

I see this: http://utah.rivals.com/cdepthtext.asp
Is there something better?

No, but I would say that anything beyond the 2 deep is shear guesswork.

[SeattleUte]

Running backs are typically small. Two or three inches under six feet is not unusual.

[U-Ute]

steve smith plays in the pac12?

I thought we were discussing receivers that didn't fit the 6'4" 4.4 mold.

[jrj84105]

And he didn't do Brian any good.

Diehard's comment is the first time I've heard anything negative about Chow's time there. It's understandable how that hiring might rankle some younger coaches. But I agree with what you suggest about how a promising young coach would be patient and learn from Chow. Long after Chow is gone from this profession he'll be regarded as one of the great college OCs of his time.

The pay sites are pretty full of allusions to just how badly Chow got along with the entire staff, and it legitimately seems like Chow's somewhat abrasive personality has been a large part of what kept him out of the HC ranks all these years.

The things that Chow did right were noting the immediate need for Hays and landing Wilson (of course I've taken a lot of heat for saying that Chow was responsible for Wilson rather than his primary recruiter ARod). I guess coaching at he college level comprises identifying talent, recruiting talent, and developing talent. I have a hunch that were we really fell short in recent years is the identifying talent part. I think that GA's departure (he did a really good job of finding guys for USU) and then the stumbling in the dark with OC are the likely culprits. In years where BJ or ARod were running the ship we've failed to identify talent at the QB position (even our misses like Brown and Eubanks have been as big of flops as the guys recruited under their managment). That worries me considerably as it pertains to our current cohort of freshman who are entirely disimilar and who are not playing ahead of Schulz who I think is hardly more of a "D1" QB than Hays.

That said, DE had issues instilling discipline and cohesion at times in his career, but I don't think anyone faults him for his ability to appraise and recruit talent. He's a nice Yin to KW's Yang in that sense. In time, I think DE will sort out the offensive recruiting. I still worry about the number of misses we have on the defensive side of the ball and our inability to scheme appropriately against spread to pass teams.