The 2013 Season Review Thread

[LA Ute]

Seems like we could use a thread like this right about now.

I'll toss this factoid out: Utah is ranked 39th in Sagarin right now and has the 4th-toughest schedule in the nation. That doesn't erase our troubles but it does add some perspective.

I hope Kyle and Co. will set their jaws and make sure they get those 6 wins and get to a bowl. Then this season will have been a step forward for the program.

[scottie]

Seems like we could use a thread like this right about now.

I'll toss this factoid out: Utah is ranked 39th in Sagarin right now and has the 4th-toughest schedule in the nation. That doesn't erase our troubles but it does add some perspective.

I hope Kyle and Co. will set their jaws and make sure they get those 6 wins and get to a bowl. Then this season will have been a step forward for the program.

I'm pretty sure they'll get to six wins; what's the likely bowl if/when they do? Is it really Fight Hunger?

[LA Ute]

I'm pretty sure they'll get to six wins; what's the likely bowl if/when they do? Is it really Fight Hunger?

I hope not. It would be a drag to play another Utah-BYU game this season. Imagine rivalry week for 30 days straight....

[sancho]

I'll toss this factoid out: Utah is ranked 39th in Sagarin right now and has the 4th-toughest schedule in the nation. That doesn't erase our troubles but it does add some perspective.


When Utah/BYU scheduling was a hot topic a few months ago, I looked at how teams with top 10 schedules tend to perform. The conclusion is that teams with top schedules perform poorly on average. It's just too much to deal with, even for the good teams. Conversely, teams that finish in the top 10 usually have a SOS rating in the 20-40 range.

The SEC really does know what it's doing. Playing 4 games against Sun Belt of FCS teams not only gets them 4 easy wins, it also allows them to compete better in their conference games.

That said, our offense is in disarray. We have issues with playcalling, an injured QB, a snakebit QB, a bad stable of WRs, a slow LT, and no TE. The RB position is the only offensive position group that is not a concern yet.

[LA Ute]

So if you're Kyle and DE, what do you do now?

These ideas come to mind:

Let Wilson heal up and try to help him regain his confidence (although if Frank Dolce is right the only way Wilson can do that is to do well in a game).

Figure out some offensive scheme that is not too predictable and compensates in some way for the limited offensive line, and our receivers' general lack of speed.

Figure out how to avoid being boat-raced by Oregon and ASU.

Figure out how to keep the players motivated after being boat-raced by ASU and Oregon, if that happens.

[sancho]

So if you're Kyle and DE, what do you do now?

These ideas come to mind:

Let Wilson heal up and try to help him regain his confidence (although if Frank Dolce is right the only way Wilson can do that is to do well in a game).

Figure out some offensive scheme that is not too predictable and compensates in some way for the limited offensive line, and our receivers' general lack of speed.

Figure out how to avoid being boat-raced by Oregon and ASU.

Figure out how to keep the players motivated after being boat-raced by ASU and Oregon, if that happens.

I don't know if there's a magic scheme that can be implemented in two weeks to cover up all our offensive issues.

It's a tricky situation now with Wilson/Shulz. If Wilson can recover, we obviously want him. If WIlson is not going to get his hand/confidence back, we need to get Shulz a lot of reps these two weeks.

I don't know how the coaches are supposed to know right now which QB option is better.

[UTEopia]

So if you're Kyle and DE, what do you do now?

These ideas come to mind:

Let Wilson heal up and try to help him regain his confidence (although if Frank Dolce is right the only way Wilson can do that is to do well in a game).

Figure out some offensive scheme that is not too predictable and compensates in some way for the limited offensive line, and our receivers' general lack of speed.

Figure out how to avoid being boat-raced by Oregon and ASU.

Figure out how to keep the players motivated after being boat-raced by ASU and Oregon, if that happens.

We need to get to 6 wins and a bowl game. If the coaches believe that burning Albers redshirt or Manning's redshirt give us the best chance of doing this, I would absolutely do it.

I don't think we need to change our scheme to have some offensive success. We do need to find some ways to give the tackles some help. This can be done with a TE attached to a line who chips the DE before going into the pattern or by doing the same thing with a FB. The RB is always going to scan and release if there is no pressure.

I'm not sure there is a way to not get boat raced by Oregon and there seems to be very little way to do it against ASU.

[SoCalPat]

I love Kyle like I love being dealt pocket aces and leftover spaghetti carbonara. But I can't get past a couple of things: Why is Kyle consistently trotting out injured QBs? Remember, the decision to redshirt Brian in 2006 was Brian's. It didn't come from Kyle. Who brought in Brian to try and rescue the UNLV game in 2007? I think that game is still haunting us. Because Kyle doesn't have faith in the backup. Or he's being too hard-school and figure QBs can still perform at a high level in spite of being compromised physically by injury. Wynn's career was likely ruined in this fashion, and we're in the early stages of it happening to Travis. We're damn lucky it didn't get worse with Brian in 2007 after his broken collarbone.

This will sound harsh, but the head coach who cannot properly manage -- or worse, consistently mismanages -- his quarterbacks is of zero value in today's college game. I think the true litmus test for Kyle in this regard is the day our starting QB suffers a concussion.

The only other option I can think of is that Kyle is getting bad information from the medical staff, or that the medical staff are merely puppets and tell Kyle what he wants to hear. This would not be the first time an athlete was rushed back into action despite some reservations from doctors as to his ability to perform at an acceptable level.

If Kyle goes Mac on Manning or Cox and turns them into Alex Smith 2.0 in burning a season for a couple of series, he might as well resign at season's end.

Fearless prediction: Finn won't be back with next year's team under any circumstance. I doubt Chris Hill has ever had to pull rank on Kyle and demand some shuffling on the offensive staff that Kyle was reluctant to do. I think Hill is well within his rights as the athletic department CEO to demand it this year, and Finn is clearly the outsider, weak link, etc.

[DrumNFeather]

Obviously, the season is not over, not even close, but we've certainly lost any momentum we had from the Stanford win, IMO. The team also doesn't seem to know what to do when it gets hit in the mouth, which, I think is interesting.

When I watch Wilson play right now, he reminds me of watching RGIII towards the end of last season. He very clearly isn't right, and the coaches are trying to compensate for his inability to throw by making him run more...which makes no sense and only gets him more banged up. He also has zip in the way of confidence right now.

IF Wilson isn't healthy and needs to be sat down and IF Schultz is mostly John Hays 2.0, then I think they have to burn one of those redshirts. I'd like to see one of these young QBs prove himself to be the second coming of Alex Smith, or even BJ before we start wringing our hands over burning the redshirt of either one of them. Alex Smith was a pretty special player, and while I'd love to think that Manning or Cox have that potential, we're going to have to see that proven, IMO.

If for nothing else, we need to get to 6-6 to get the extra practices heading into next year regardless of who the QB is.

I've heard a lot over the last few years about all this depth we're recruiting at WR...and frankly, I'm not seeing it. If we have guys that can contribute to this team in a positive way...at any position, I think we need to roll them out there, or at least we needed to.

The ASU game will be an interesting test to see whether or not this team still believes it can get it done, or if it shot its wad against Stanford.

[DrumNFeather]

So, the PAC 12 Bowl Projections have the Utes going to something called the Heart of Dallas bowl. The interesting thing to me is that it is on January 1, which is a lot of extra practice and would put them playing a game what? 6 weeks shy of Spring ball? If they could get to 6-6, it wouldn't be the worst bowl in the world.

[EutawStUtesFan]

I love Kyle like I love being dealt pocket aces and leftover spaghetti carbonara. But I can't get past a couple of things: Why is Kyle consistently trotting out injured QBs? Remember, the decision to redshirt Brian in 2006 was Brian's. It didn't come from Kyle. Who brought in Brian to try and rescue the UNLV game in 2007? I think that game is still haunting us. Because Kyle doesn't have faith in the backup. Or he's being too hard-school and figure QBs can still perform at a high level in spite of being compromised physically by injury. Wynn's career was likely ruined in this fashion, and we're in the early stages of it happening to Travis. We're damn lucky it didn't get worse with Brian in 2007 after his broken collarbone.

This will sound harsh, but the head coach who cannot properly manage -- or worse, consistently mismanages -- his quarterbacks is of zero value in today's college game. I think the true litmus test for Kyle in this regard is the day our starting QB suffers a concussion.

The only other option I can think of is that Kyle is getting bad information from the medical staff, or that the medical staff are merely puppets and tell Kyle what he wants to hear. This would not be the first time an athlete was rushed back into action despite some reservations from doctors as to his ability to perform at an acceptable level.

If Kyle goes Mac on Manning or Cox and turns them into Alex Smith 2.0 in burning a season for a couple of series, he might as well resign at season's end.

Fearless prediction: Finn won't be back with next year's team under any circumstance. I doubt Chris Hill has ever had to pull rank on Kyle and demand some shuffling on the offensive staff that Kyle was reluctant to do. I think Hill is well within his rights as the athletic department CEO to demand it this year, and Finn is clearly the outsider, weak link, etc.

Add Roderick to the list. How our WRs underperform year after year and this guy still has a job is beyond me.

[sancho]

Add Roderick to the list. How our WRs underperform year after year and this guy still has a job is beyond me.

I can never tell if our WRs are underperforming or if we just don't have very good WRs.

I do think our WRs improved a lot in blocking this season.

[crazyute]

Add Roderick to the list. How our WRs underperform year after year and this guy still has a job is beyond me.
i agree on roderick. he has been underwhelming as a coach.

[DrumNFeather]

i agree on roderick. he has been underwhelming as a coach.

I count three separate times when KW passed on him for the OC job (The Schram/A-Rod failed experiment, Chow, BJ/Dennis). At some point, don't you just move on if you're him?

[LA Ute]

I count three separate times when KW passed on him for the OC job (The Schram/A-Rod failed experiment, Chow, BJ/Dennis). At some point, don't you just move on if you're him?

I think his wife is the women's soccer coach at Utah. That must be a factor.

[concerned]

I think his wife is the women's soccer coach at Utah. That must be a factor.

I dont think she has been that for a ocuple of years. May not even be employed at the U at all.

[LA Ute]

I can never tell if our WRs are underperforming or if we just don't have very good WRs.

I do think our WRs improved a lot in blocking this season.

The common refrain I hear (from people who are better judges than I am) is that most of our WRs lack speed and can't get separation from speedy PAC-12 DBs. Add that to poor protection for our QB and you get stats like 7 of 20 passing against USC.

[SoCalPat]

I think his wife is the women's soccer coach at Utah. That must be a factor.

Never the head coach, no longer at Utah.

[LA Ute]

Never the head coach, no longer at Utah.

Ah. Thanks. I don't remember the details, but I know there were personal/family concerns in the mix.

[Scratch]

I will say that if you had told me at the start of the year that Scott would go down in game 1, Murphy and Tonga would go down a few games in, and Wilson would get hurt in the Stanford game to the extent where it's an open question as to whether he or Schulz would be playing, I would have been absolutely giddy to be 4-4 at this point.

This team has some serious flaws. We don't have any depth at those three positions (QB, TE, and WR). If our front-line guys were still healthy, we would be fine there, but that's not likely to happen, although the extent of the injuries has been surprising. Combine that with the fact that we have an offensive line consisting of 5 guys who should all probably be guards, with a left tackle who might be quick enough to handle right tackle, and it's really not a surprise that our offense is completely inept. The good news is that next year we will start to see a bit more true QB depth, and that we are also (apparently) bringing in 2 guys who are true, top-level offensive tackles (although they probably won't be ready to step in and man those positions for a couple of years). Those two things should go a long way towards solving some of our offensive woes, although it may be a couple of years before the linemen are really ready to step in.

My biggest concern is that I'm not sure we've brought in a single true P12 level receiver since Scott and Anderson. It seemed like Pedroza could have been, but obviously that didn't work out. We're really going to need a couple of guys from the Brian Allen/Dominique Hatfield/Delshawn McClellon group to step up in the next few years, but I haven't seen a lot there yet to give me hope.

[Scorcho]

Since joining the P12, Utah is 3-7 on the road with an average loss margin of 16.6 (range of 7-30). Honestly, if you can win 1 or 2 road games every year (and win 75% of your home games) in this conference, you're doing pretty well.

[concerned]

I will say that if you had told me at the start of the year that Scott would go down in game 1, Murphy and Tonga would go down a few games in, and Wilson would get hurt in the Stanford game to the extent where it's an open question as to whether he or Schulz would be playing, I would have been absolutely giddy to be 4-4 at this point.

This team has some serious flaws. We don't have any depth at those three positions (QB, TE, and WR). If our front-line guys were still healthy, we would be fine there, but that's not likely to happen, although the extent of the injuries has been surprising. Combine that with the fact that we have an offensive line consisting of 5 guys who should all probably be guards, with a left tackle who might be quick enough to handle right tackle, and it's really not a surprise that our offense is completely inept. The good news is that next year we will start to see a bit more true QB depth, and that we are also (apparently) bringing in 2 guys who are true, top-level offensive tackles (although they probably won't be ready to step in and man those positions for a couple of years). Those two things should go a long way towards solving some of our offensive woes, although it may be a couple of years before the linemen are really ready to step in.

My biggest concern is that I'm not sure we've brought in a single true P12 level receiver since Scott and Anderson. It seemed like Pedroza could have been, but obviously that didn't work out. We're really going to need a couple of guys from the Brian Allen/Dominique Hatfield/Delshawn McClellon group to step up in the next few years, but I haven't seen a lot there yet to give me hope.


How big is Allen? seems like all our future receivers are either smurfs (mcClellon, Hatfield, Norwood) or too slow to see the field.

[sancho]

How big is Allen? seems like all our future receivers are either smurfs (mcClellon, Hatfield, Norwood) or too slow to see the field.

The size/speed combination gets a WR a 4-5 star rating. It's tough to rope those guys in.

[Scratch]

How big is Allen? seems like all our future receivers are either smurfs (mcClellon, Hatfield, Norwood) or too slow to see the field.

Allen is big - he's 6'3". I just hope he has enough speed to take advantage of his size. We also have a couple of bigger guys currently committed in Brandon Snell (6'2" JuCo) and Raelon Singleton (6'5" out of high school in Texas).

[wally]

I will say that if you had told me at the start of the year that Scott would go down in game 1, Murphy and Tonga would go down a few games in, and Wilson would get hurt in the Stanford game to the extent where it's an open question as to whether he or Schulz would be playing, I would have been absolutely giddy to be 4-4 at this point.

When I started reading this thread I was thinking the exact same thing. Injuries have really bitten Utah and lack of depth is hurting the team as many predicted it would be should it be exposed. Without losing Scott, Murphy, Tonga and TWilson's index finger, Utah is at least 5-3 (2-3 PAC12) right now with a pretty decent chance at standing at 6-2 or better, and we are not having this midseason "come-to-jesus" thread discussion.

To get back to the question at hand "where do we go from here?", I would think that you just keep shooting for a bowl game and make that the official team goal at this point. I don't care about burning red shirts of unknown commodities. I kind of like the idea of testing some of what we have in the QB cupboard ahead of schedule, and letting QB's compete for the job next year if that is how it goes. That is how depth is developed, right?

I think that OLine definitely needs to be targeted for improvement in the coming off-season, however that is to be accomplished, but I think that we are really seeing it exposed as a weekness the past two games primarily because the offense has lost the majority of its potency, and is now much more easily defended.

If we make a bowl game after all of these injuries, this season will have been a very nice step forward from last year.

Injuries have killed our delusions of grandeur.

[crazyute]

When I started reading this thread I was thinking the exact same thing. Injuries have really bitten Utah and lack of depth is hurting the team as many predicted it would be should it be exposed. Without losing Scott, Murphy, Tonga and TWilson's index finger, Utah is at least 5-3 (2-3 PAC12) right now with a pretty decent chance at standing at 6-2 or better, and we are not having this midseason "come-to-jesus" thread discussion.

To get back to the question at hand "where do we go from here?", I would think that you just keep shooting for a bowl game and make that the official team goal at this point. I don't care about burning red shirts of unknown commodities. I kind of like the idea of testing some of what we have in the QB cupboard ahead of schedule, and letting QB's compete for the job next year if that is how it goes. That is how depth is developed, right?

I think that OLine definitely needs to be targeted for improvement in the coming off-season, however that is to be accomplished, but I think that we are really seeing it exposed as a weekness the past two games primarily because the offense has lost the majority of its potency, and is now much more easily defended.

If we make a bowl game after all of these injuries, this season will have been a very nice step forward from last year.

Injuries have killed our delusions of grandeur.
a kid like jackson barton might be asked to step in day one and be a starter. he does bring the size at tackle that we need 6'6" 300.

[LA Ute]

OK, I'm going to take a brief whine break.

I've gone to three football games and two basketball games here in L.A. since we joined the PAC-12 and we are 0 for 5 in those games. I went to the Cal basketball game last winter. Another loss, a bad one. So after 6 major sports contests we've lost them all. Only one of the football losses has been embarrassing, so we have that going for us.

I attended one gymnastics meet with UCLA. We lost that one too.

This is getting kind of old.

OK, that's over. I like crazyute's approach, thinking about the future. Hope is good.

[Diehard Ute]

OK, I'm going to take a brief whine break.

I've gone to three football games and two basketball games here in L.A. since we joined the PAC-12 and we are 0 for 5 in those games. I went to the Cal basketball game last winter. Another loss, a bad one. So after 6 major sports contests we've lost them all. Only one of the football losses has been embarrassing, so we have that going for us.

I attended one gymnastics meet with UCLA. We lost that one too.

This is getting kind of old.

OK, that's over. I like crazyute's approach, thinking about the future. Hope is good.

Uhm stop going to games. Please.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I count three separate times when KW passed on him for the OC job (The Schram/A-Rod failed experiment, Chow, BJ/Dennis). At some point, don't you just move on if you're him?

He tried. He accepted a job at byu last year. Then he learned that coaches meetings more closely resembles Elder's Quorum or Missionary District Meetings than an actual COACHES MEETING (including opening the meeting by praying to be led by The Holy Spirit to find those football players who are prepared to serve The Lord by playing for byu) , and realized he made a dreadful mistake and begged Kyle to hire him back. Kyle trusts him for whatever reason, so he let him back for 'the last time'.

LA, ARod's wife is an attorney in SLC and doesn't want to leave. You should have known that since you Reptilians tend to flock together.

(Kidding! I love attorneys)

[SoCalPat]

Uhm stop going to games. Please.

Seconded.

[LA Ute]

Uhm stop going to games. Please.


Seconded.

Hey! It's only for L.A.-area games that I am bad luck. Just to be safe, I won't be at the ASU or Oregon games, but I am not sure that will make much difference. Warning: I do plan to attend the Colorado game, but the Utes tend to do well when I watch them in Salt Lake.

[concerned]

Hey! It's only for L.A.-area games that I am bad luck. Just to be safe, I won't be at the ASU or Oregon games, but I am not sure that will make much difference. Warning: I do plan to attend the Colorado game, but the Utes tend to do well when I watch them in Salt Lake.

Were you at the Colorado game two years ago? If so, that explains it.

[LA Ute]

Were you at the Colorado game two years ago? If so, that explains it.

I was. But so was my daughter. She was at UCLA last year and USC in 2011 too. Hmmmm. I may have to throw her under the bus.

[U-Ute]

Seconded.

I hear BYU is playing some games in SoCal.

Maybe you could dump your bad mojo on them.

[DrumNFeather]

Hey! It's only for L.A.-area games that I am bad luck. Just to be safe, I won't be at the ASU or Oregon games, but I am not sure that will make much difference. Warning: I do plan to attend the Colorado game, but the Utes tend to do well when I watch them in Salt Lake.

Time for you to turn your tickets over to me and start funding my trips to see the team play.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

[Applejack]

I can never tell if our WRs are underperforming or if we just don't have very good WRs.

I do think our WRs improved a lot in blocking this season.

I think our WRs are much better in many aspects of the game this year-blocking, route running, etc but the talent is not there. Scott/Murphy/Tonga being out is the real culprit. The depth (or lack thereof) at the position is not dissimilar to that at every other position.

Also, a former red shirt WR is doing quite well on the team that he transferred to, the Cleveland Browns. http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/29/3718896/browns-hold-on-to-wr-josh-gordon.html

[LA Ute]

This is interesting. No. 87, Fakailoatonga (http://utahutes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/siale_fakailoatonga_854423.html), is a freshman playing tight end on the 4th and 1 play (because we have no experienced tight ends left). Notice he he completely misses his block and his man makes the tackle soon enough to keep Dres from making the additional 1/2 yard he needed.

http://chrisshelley.com/images/poorblock.gif

Of course, it also look like Dres probably could have made the first down if he had kept going around the edge instead of turning down field. Am I wrong about that?

It's a game of inches, as they say....

[concerned]

Of course, it also look like Dres probably could have made the first down if he had kept going around the edge instead of turning down field. Am I wrong about that?

It's a game of inches, as they say....

He definitely missed the block that Tonga would have made. Dres would have had a bigger loss if he had gone wide, b/c he would have had to run deep around Karl Williams and both defenders who ultimately tackled him would have beat him to the edge, IMHO. The safety would have had an open shot.

[Diehard Ute]

Of course, it also look like Dres probably could have made the first down if he had kept going around the edge instead of turning down field. Am I wrong about that?

It's a game of inches, as they say....


He definitely missed the block that Tonga would have made. Dres would have had a bigger loss if he had gone wide, b/c he would have had to run deep around Karl Williams and both defenders who ultimately tackled him would have beat him to the edge, IMHO. The safety would have had an open shot.

This.

While 87 misses his block, Williams getting blown up in the backfield is the bigger issue IMO.

If Williams just stays on his feet he seals that player off, giving Dres a better delay and time go read the play, and he likely doesn't have contact until he's already at the marker.

Williams getting cut in the backfield takes the guess work out of the play for the other defenders.

[LA Ute]

While 87 misses his block, Williams getting blown up in the backfield is the bigger issue IMO.

If Williams just stays on his feet he seals that player off, giving Dres a better delay and time go read the play, and he likely doesn't have contact until he's already at the marker.

Williams getting cut in the backfield takes the guess work out of the play for the other defenders.

I did notice Williams getting blown up. I think if either Williams or Fakailoatonga does his job Dres gets the first. My points are: (1) it wasn't the play call that was the problem, as many have said; and (2) we really miss our upperclassmen TEs.

[LA Ute]

So was Dres' tip + resulting pick the turning point of the game? The wheels started coming off right then.

Also, since all opposing teams will now bracket Dres or otherwise stop him, is there any way to punish them for that? Do we have anyone?

[Brian]

It also looks like a Wilson or Poole run could have made an easy 1st going to the left side. But, it's hard to tell if there was any read on that play.

[LA Ute]

I listened this morning to the podcast of Riley's weekly interview with Brian Johnson. Brian may be inexperienced but he has become good at coach-speak. He said nothing of substance in 20 minutes. In fact, the interview did nothing to inspire any confidence in Brian as a guy with any real insight into what is going on.

[U-Ute]

So was Dres' tip + resulting pick the turning point of the game? The wheels started coming off right then.

Also, since all opposing teams will now bracket Dres or otherwise stop him, is there any way to punish them for that? Do we have anyone?

Murphy or some slot receiver would have to be the one to occupy the safety. I don't see anyone currently who can do that. :(

[OrangeUte]

Whit is talking about "slowing down the offense" and grinding it out a la Stanford. I don't know that this is a bad idea but only if we get a solid running game going.

One thing that Arizona did against us in the second half was to chew up the clock. USC did as well. It seems like if that philosophy is going to work we have to eliminate turnovers and cease 3 and outs. We also have to score early.

[arizonaute]

Both times the Utes have played SC I have gotten up early, driven from Mesa to SC watched the game and then driven back home. I was also in rice eccless for the usc game last year. I may be as much to blame as LA. I have also been to Tuscon and Tempe for football games that were losses. THe only difference is I am not a lawyer . I am an IT guy. I blame myself for the o line problems, Travis's hand and Jim Boylen.

[sancho]

One thing that Arizona did against us in the second half was to chew up the clock. USC did as well. It seems like if that philosophy is going to work we have to eliminate turnovers and cease 3 and outs. We also have to score early.

We didn't get a chance to use USC's biggest weakness (lack of depth) against them. USC has been wilting in the 4th quarter against the run. We couldn't get things going well enough in quarters 1-3 to wear them out.

[UTEopia]

This.

While 87 misses his block, Williams getting blown up in the backfield is the bigger issue IMO.

If Williams just stays on his feet he seals that player off, giving Dres a better delay and time go read the play, and he likely doesn't have contact until he's already at the marker.

Williams getting cut in the backfield takes the guess work out of the play for the other defenders.

I really don't know how you can expect Williams to stay on his feet when the guy dives at his knees. The defender did exactly what he is taught to do and I can really not fault Williams at all.

I also have to wonder whether Salt (59) pulls the wrong way. That play is going to Dres all the way. That is not a read option in the offense at this point. There is no reason for him to pull to that side because no way the backside guy catches Dres on a sweep.


I just did not like the play call on 4th and short yardage. USC runs to the ball well and I would rather try to go 2 yards straight up field than 6-10 around the outside.

[Diehard Ute]

I really don't know how you can expect Williams to stay on his feet when the guy dives at his knees. The defender did exactly what he is taught to do and I can really not fault Williams at all.

I just did not like the play call on 4th and short yardage. USC runs to the ball well and I would rather try to go 2 yards straight up field than 6-10 around the outside.

The point wasn't whether Williams was right or wrong, but rather that once Williams gets blown up it doesn't matter what 87 does.

Frankly USC seemed to know what was coming, no one bought the fake and the defender was to Williams spot before he was

[UTEopia]

So was Dres' tip + resulting pick the turning point of the game? The wheels started coming off right then.

Also, since all opposing teams will now bracket Dres or otherwise stop him, is there any way to punish them for that? Do we have anyone?

At this point I can't remember whether the missed 4th down came before or after the pick. They were pretty close together and I think the combination of the two plays had a huge impact on the offense. I also think there was a missed opportunity on USC's first or second series where McGill came across the middle and tipped the ball. Had he been able to pick that he would have walked into the endzone and put us up 10-0. It was a tough catch, but if he had been one of our WR's we would definitely be calling it a drop.

[UBlender]

The failed 4th down came after the first pick and I believe the Wilson fumble. I believe it was 10-3 at that point, but I could be wrong. I just remember thinking at the time that it was a great opportunity to regain control of the game (remember, we were firmly in control for the first 10ish minutes until the first turnover) after we had made some crushing errors. Failure to convert equaled our last real shot at this game.

[U-Ute]

I really don't know how you can expect Williams to stay on his feet when the guy dives at his knees. The defender did exactly what he is taught to do and I can really not fault Williams at all.

I also have to wonder whether Salt (59) pulls the wrong way. That play is going to Dres all the way. That is not a read option in the offense at this point. There is no reason for him to pull to that side because no way the backside guy catches Dres on a sweep.


I just did not like the play call on 4th and short yardage. USC runs to the ball well and I would rather try to go 2 yards straight up field than 6-10 around the outside.

It certainly does look like he is going the wrong way. If they are worried about the end, Poole is there to chip him. Unless the pull action is there to sell the fake to the left. Although, with only the MLB behind the line, there wasn't anyone to fool. Everyone else stays left, like they knew it was coming.

USC is too fast to go around. We didn't get anything around the edge at all during that game. I agree that up the middle on short yardage was the way to go.

[SeattleUte]

Here's the crux of our problems so far. Every Pac 12 team we've played except maybe Oregon State has bigger, faster more skilled players at most positions. These players were bigger, faster and more skilled than our corresponding players when said players were recruited. Whit can stretch his players a long ways redshirting, inspiring, motivating and coaching them. But there's a limit to how far programatic excellence can make up for recruiting gaps. Can we succeed spectacularly in the Pac 12? What's our model? Is Pat right that we all will go to our graves watching the Utes year after year be the Pac 12's (football) Indiana? My favorite model has been Nebraska but now the jury's out on whether Nebraska can compete with Ohio State and Michigan. Phil Knight makes Oregon an aberration. Of course the great equalizer is quarterback. Quarterback recruit rankings tend to be wildly inaccurate I've noticed. Alex Smith wasn't recruited by UCLA or USC. Jake Heaps was. Russell Wilson got one DI offer, from NC State.

[Applejack]

Here's the crux of our problems so far. Every Pac 12 team we've played except maybe Oregon State has bigger, faster more skilled players at most positions. These players were bigger, faster and more skilled than our corresponding players when said players were recruited. Whit can stretch his players a long ways redshirting, inspiring, motivating and coaching them. But there's a limit to how far programatic excellence can make up for recruiting gaps. Can we succeed spectacularly in the Pac 12? What's our model? Is Pat right that we all will go to our graves watching the Utes year after year be the Pac 12's (football) Indiana? My favorite model has been Nebraska but now the jury's out on whether Nebraska can compete with Ohio State and Michigan. Phil Knight makes Oregon an aberration. Of course the great equalizer is quarterback. Quarterback recruit rankings tend to be wildly inaccurate I've noticed. Alex Smith wasn't recruited by UCLA or USC. Jake Heaps was. Russell Wilson got one DI offer, from NC State.

Great question. I think that the following has to be Utah's business model in the Pac-12:

- Shore up all the polynesian defensive line talent that this state produces and steal a few poly mormons from Texas/California. This is the one area where we have recruiting advantages against the big boys. We should always have one of the better d-lines in the Pac-12. Losing guys like Mone from Highland to a team like Michigan really hurts us.
- Fill the TE/O-line positions with all those tall, white mormons that BYU has feasted on. We aren't going to win every battle with BYU for these kids, but we need to get better at stealing offensive lineman from them.
- Get some good running backs from junior college. I think we do pretty well for ourselves in this department.
- Fill the defensive backfield and linebackers with Texas kids. This is the one area where I think the Pac-12 may actually hurt our recruiting. It's hard to sell Texas kids on playing on the west coast. Without visits to TCU, we can't promise them games at home. I think we should schedule Rice in place of Weber State for the foreseeable future.
- Strike it rich with QBs. We've done it with Brian J and Alex, whereas the intervals between and after them have been untantalizing.

[SoCalPat]

Great question. I think that the following has to be Utah's business model in the Pac-12:

- Fill the defensive backfield and linebackers with Texas kids. This is the one area where I think the Pac-12 may actually hurt our recruiting. It's hard to sell Texas kids on playing on the west coast. Without visits to TCU, we can't promise them games at home. I think we should schedule Rice in place of Weber State for the foreseeable future.

I'm mixed on whether or not we should have a presence here. Colorado played in Texas every year when it was part of the Big 12, yet its roster was overwhelmingly in-state and California kids. No data to back this up, but it seems like a majority of the kids who verbal with us, only to decommit later on, are Texas kids.

Yet Morgan has a good presence in the state, and the success of the Rogers brothers at OSU and Josh Huff at Oregon makes it appealing to go after that talent. I just don't think you can half-ass it there, and you can only have so many coaches out recruiting. We might be spreading ourselves too thin by trying to incorporate Texas into our recruiting mix.

[concerned]

where we get the size-speed combo for LB, safety, and WR is going to be a major issue.

[SoCalPat]

Is Pat right that we all will go to our graves watching the Utes year after year be the Pac 12's (football) Indiana?

Careful there. I never warned that we could be inept year-in and year-out. There really is no equivalent in our league to Indiana. Even Washington State made it to two Rose Bowls in my adult years. There's a lot of room in between the Rose Bowl and Indiana that would make us respectable and competitive, yet yearning for more and never getting it. Are we willing to accept that?

[LA Ute]

Here's the crux of our problems so far. Every Pac 12 team we've played except maybe Oregon State has bigger, faster more skilled players at most positions. These players were bigger, faster and more skilled than our corresponding players when said players were recruited. Whit can stretch his players a long ways redshirting, inspiring, motivating and coaching them. But there's a limit to how far programatic excellence can make up for recruiting gaps. Can we succeed spectacularly in the Pac 12? What's our model? Is Pat right that we all will go to our graves watching the Utes year after year be the Pac 12's (football) Indiana? My favorite model has been Nebraska but now the jury's out on whether Nebraska can compete with Ohio State and Michigan. Phil Knight makes Oregon an aberration. Of course the great equalizer is quarterback. Quarterback recruit rankings tend to be wildly inaccurate I've noticed. Alex Smith wasn't recruited by UCLA or USC. Jake Heaps was. Russell Wilson got one DI offer, from NC State.

(Standard disclaimer for red-tinted goggles.) I don't think we will be Indiana because that's not who Utah is. The reasons are intangible. There's a drive within the U. of U. culture to succeed and be competitive, both in football and basketball. Utah's boosters and fans care about that, and it's part of their sportsfan DNA and history. Places like Indiana are different. There, that drive exists for basketball only. History backs me up on this.

As Majerus used to say about hoops, we just need better players. We're getting them. They won't be at USC levels, numerically or talent-wise, but good enough to consistently be in the top third of the conference eventually and to get to the Rose Bowl every 10-15 years. That's fine with me, although I'd be happy to be underestimating the future.


Great question. I think that the following has to be Utah's business model in the Pac-12:

- Fill the defensive backfield and linebackers with Texas kids. This is the one area where I think the Pac-12 may actually hurt our recruiting. It's hard to sell Texas kids on playing on the west coast. Without visits to TCU, we can't promise them games at home. I think we should schedule Rice in place of Weber State for the foreseeable future.

FWIW, Taylor Morgan Scalley said yesterday on the Riley show that the top recruiting priority is "speed on the edges," or WRs and DBs. The coaching staff is painfully aware of our lack of speed there.

[concerned]

It has been a priority for several years now, as has o-line. Whether it materializes is the question. Who is Taylor Scalley?

[LA Ute]

It has been a priority for several years now, as has o-line. Whether it materializes is the question. Who is Taylor Scalley?

Taylor is Morgan Scalley's brother. I get them confused sometimes. (Brain cramp on me!) Morgan is Utah's recruiting coordinator (and safeties coach).

http://utahutes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/scalley_morgan01.html

[crazyute]

(Standard disclaimer for red-tinted goggles.) I don't think we will be Indiana because that's not who Utah is. The reasons are intangible. There's a drive within the U. of U. culture to succeed and be competitive, both in football and basketball. Utah's boosters and fans care about that, and it's part of their sportsfan DNA and history. Places like Indiana are different. There, that drive exists for basketball only. History backs me up on this.

As Majerus used to say about hoops, we just need better players. We're getting them. They won't be at USC levels, numerically or talent-wise, but good enough to consistently be in the top third of the conference eventually and to get to the Rose Bowl every 10-15 years. That's fine with me, although I'd be happy to be underestimating the future.



FWIW, Taylor Morgan Scalley said yesterday on the Riley show that the top recruiting priority is "speed on the edges," or WRs and DBs. The coaching staff is painfully aware of our lack of speed there.
If this is true, one thing I would love to see next year is eric rowe moved to SS and micah thomas moved to defense and placed at FS. he brings more speed and range than rowe. but rowe gives us a very athletic SS that can tackle well and cover too. this gives us a very athletic and rangy safety combo.

[sancho]

Mandel doesn't think we make it to 6 wins:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131104/college-football-bowl-projections/

He has BYU vs Arizona in the Fight Hunger Bowl, which is probably the best possible Pac-12 matchup for BYU's defense.

[UTEopia]

If this is true, one thing I would love to see next year is eric rowe moved to SS and micah thomas moved to defense and placed at FS. he brings more speed and range than rowe. but rowe gives us a very athletic SS that can tackle well and cover too. this gives us a very athletic and rangy safety combo.

Thomas was initially willing to move to defense but then changed his mind and said he wanted to remain at QB. I wonder if he leaves if moved to defense.

[LA Ute]

This seems to fit here:

Pac-12 gains ground in conference rankings (http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id/65226/pac-12-gains-ground-in-conference-rankings)


The SEC continues to lead ESPN Stats & Info’s Conference Power Rankings by a wide margin, while the Pac-12 remains a strong second.

The Conference Power Rankings are a formula that equally weighs the rankings from the AP Poll and ESPN’s new Football Power Index(FPI) in order to determine the best and worst conferences in the country.

The Pac-12, despite Oregon's loss, picked up ground on the SEC this week, gaining 1.9 points compared to 0.2 for the SEC, which lead the Pac-12 by 10 points.

The third-place Big 12 lost four points and is now 12 points behind the Pac-12.

This might be of interest to Pac-12 fans: The metrics favor the Pac-12, the humans the SEC:


The SEC has seven teams ranked in the top 25 of the AP poll, including four teams ranked in the AP top 10. No other conference has more than four total teams ranked in the AP top 25.

In comparison, the Pac-12 leads all conferences with seven teams in the top 25 of the FPI. The SEC is second with six teams, but only one of those teams – Alabama – ranks in the top 8. The Pac-12 has four teams in the top 8.

It is important to note that the SEC has two more teams than the Pac-12, which makes the Pac-12’s lead in the FPI even more impressive.


There's been some snarky things said about Stanford's loss at Utah, but most of that has been based on ignorance, folks not understanding that the Utes are a good team playing a ridiculously difficult schedule.

As ESPN Stats & Info notes:


The Pac-12 actually has the most depth at the top of its conference. When Stanford loses to a team like Utah, who has played the hardest schedule thus far according to ESPN strength of schedule rankings, it may not be as much of an upset as many would expect.

So the next time you hear someone dismiss Stanford for its loss at Utah, tell them to educate themselves.

[Applejack]

Which injury has hurt the most this year: "What's the Frequency" Kenneth Scott, Travis Wilson, Jake Murphy, WestLee Tonga, Blechen? I tend to think the Murphy/Tonga combo injury was the most devastating. We have, literally, no backup - we were forced to play zero TE sets. Murphy being back improves the offensive line, the receiving talent, and is the ultimate release valve for Wilson/Shultzy.

I love K Scott, but Fitz/Denham have been decent backups, if major downgrades. I actually don't think we've missed Blechen - the LBs have been vastly improved this year, and I just don't think Blechen is a better safety than Walker. Wilson getting hurt was obviously a season changer and I really hope that whatever he's dealing with isn't larger than the game of football. But he was in a no-win situation with 3 of his main targets down already.

[sancho]

Which injury has hurt the most this year: "What's the Frequency" Kenneth Scott, Travis Wilson, Jake Murphy, WestLee Tonga, Blechen? I tend to think the Murphy/Tonga combo injury was the most devastating. We have, literally, no backup - we were forced to play zero TE sets. Murphy being back improves the offensive line, the receiving talent, and is the ultimate release valve for Wilson/Shultzy.

I love K Scott, but Fitz/Denham have been decent backups, if major downgrades. I actually don't think we've missed Blechen - the LBs have been vastly improved this year, and I just don't think Blechen is a better safety than Walker. Wilson getting hurt was obviously a season changer and I really hope that whatever he's dealing with isn't larger than the game of football. But he was in a no-win situation with 3 of his main targets down already.

That's tough. I can't decide. Wilson just led us to a huge win before going down. We lost the TEs at the same time. We haven't been the same since. Our WRs have had a hard time getting separation all season. I can't decide. Scott would have been great for Schulz. Give us some way to use Schulz cannon arm.

[Applejack]

That's tough. I can't decide. Wilson just led us to a huge win before going down. We lost the TEs at the same time. We haven't been the same since. Our WRs have had a hard time getting separation all season. I can't decide. Scott would have been great for Schulz. Give us some way to use Schulz cannon arm.

That's true: Kenneth "Frequency" Scott's loss probably impacts Schultzy more than Wilson.

[sancho]

That's true: Kenneth "Frequency" Scott's loss probably impacts Schultzy more than Wilson.

Frustrating. Here we have a QB with one obvious strength, and we don't have a burner/jump-baller to take advantage of it.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I'm pretty sure that losing the TEs contributed to losing Wilson, so I think they were the most critical loss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[LA Ute]

One hates to whine, but we really have been snakebitten this year, haven't we?

[U-Ute]

One hates to whine, but we really have been snakebitten this year, haven't we?

This year? It feels like whatever deal Kyle made with the devil to win the Sugar Bowl involved a long term payout.

[Applejack]

One hates to whine, but we really have been snakebitten this year, haven't we?

I'm not sure we are more snakebitten than anyone else. I think we lack depth, so injuries hurt more. I believe it was against Stanford this year when their starting left tackle went down with some injury. They promptly plugged a 4 star junior in to replace him. We don't have that luxury.

I mean, look at Blechen. Remember 2 years ago when everyone thought he was the bee's knees? Now you never hear him mentioned. Why? Because we have good (better?) players that took his spot. When you trade Kenneth Scott for Anthony Denham or Westlee Tonga for Sione Takiilaitonga or Jake Murphy for Player to Be Named Later, you feel snake-bitten.

[UBlender]

This year? It feels like whatever deal Kyle made with the devil to win the Sugar Bowl involved a long term payout.

It's funny, this is exactly what I said to that idiot ColoUte (I am going to gratuitously insult him on this board until he comes over) last night. I am starting to believe that Kyle made a deal with Satan to get Brian through 2008 healthy in exchange for the health of his QBs for the next....well, at least five years, hopefully not more.

[U-Ute]

It's funny, this is exactly what I said to that idiot ColoUte

It is obvious that you are a brilliant person. Why do you continue to hang out with that buffoon?

[LA Ute]

I'm not sure we are more snakebitten than anyone else. I think we lack depth, so injuries hurt more. I believe it was against Stanford this year when their starting left tackle went down with some injury. They promptly plugged a 4 star junior in to replace him. We don't have that luxury.

I mean, look at Blechen. Remember 2 years ago when everyone thought he was the bee's knees? Now you never hear him mentioned. Why? Because we have good (better?) players that took his spot. When you trade Kenneth Scott for Anthony Denham or Westlee Tonga for Sione Takiilaitonga or Jake Murphy for Player to Be Named Later, you feel snake-bitten.

It does seem that the depth problem (and you are right about that problem) is getting better. I wonder if it's getting better quickly enough. In 2 more years we'll have our 5 years of PAC-12 recruiting and we'll know more.

I think it is a very high-stakes process. If we blow that first full PAC-12 recruiting cycle we may be locked into mediocrity, which will make recruiting even more difficult, which will keep us mediocre, and so forth. Our recruiting story has been that we are a program on the rise. If we lose that story we'll be in trouble.

[Applejack]

It does seem that the depth problem (and you are right about that problem) is getting better. I wonder if it's getting better quickly enough. In 2 more years we'll have our 5 years of PAC-12 recruiting and we'll know more.

I think it is a very high-stakes process. If we blow that first full PAC-12 recruiting cycle we may be locked into mediocrity, which will make recruiting even more difficult, which will keep us mediocre, and so forth. Our recruiting story has been that we are a program on the rise. If we lose that story we'll be in trouble.

I don't think recruits are as tuned into the nuances of "full recruiting cycles" as some of us may be. Recruits want (a) playing time, (b) wins, and (c) a shot at the NFL. We need to win more to get better players; it doesn't matter when we do it, but now would be preferable.

[Scorcho]

(deep sigh!) that is all. Wilson had the potential to be special, and hopefully he still might be. Thanks for the season TW.

[USS Utah]

Earlier today in chat at UF.N., UtahUte72 was saying that when it was announced that Utah was moving to the Pac-12, everyone was all simles and high fives except for Kyle Whittingham. When he was asked he said it was because he knew the enormity of the task ahead to make Utah competitive in their new conference. Few believed him then -- remember the dream of the Sugar bowl was fresh -- but they do now. Whittingham presented a five year plan to make Utah competitive and they are following that plan. Nothing will happen to Whittingham until that plan has been fully executed.

Pangloss added that as long as the season ticket renewal rate is high and the place is sold-out or near sold-out (and all the other stuff being equal), he would not expect Chris Hill to make a change.

[Rocker Ute]

FWIW regarding Kyle being on the hot seat, I found myself in the company of two fairly large boosters of the U Athletics program. Both were very upset at the notion of not giving Whittingham the time needed to build the program to where it was and implied that they were asked to donate to support such a plan... specifically they talked about '5 years'. Now certainly they don't represent the majority of boosters, but my guess is that their feelings are similar to most boosters out there. General fans can say one thing, but it is when the donors turn that things will happen with a coaching situation. It was true for Giac and Boylen and it'll be true for Whittingham.

As long as he has their support he is safe. That doesn't mean it won't change fast though if they deviate or don't fulfill that 'plan'.

Take as you may, but I found it interesting their tone versus what I hear on message boards. I personally don't see any ultimatums being delivered to Whit this year. I would say at worst he is here for another two years. Next year if we perform in a like manner he may get the ultimatum then but no sooner.

[mpfunk]

Earlier today in chat at UF.N., UtahUte72 was saying that when it was announced that Utah was moving to the Pac-12, everyone was all simles and high fives except for Kyle Whittingham. When he was asked he said it was because he knew the enormity of the task ahead to make Utah competitive in their new conference. Few believed him then -- remember the dream of the Sugar bowl was fresh -- but they do now. Whittingham presented a five year plan to make Utah competitive and they are following that plan. Nothing will happen to Whittingham until that plan has been fully executed.

Pangloss added that as long as the season ticket renewal rate is high and the place is sold-out or near sold-out (and all the other stuff being equal), he would not expect Chris Hill to make a change.

I've frequently been accused of being someone who wants to pull the trigger on coaches too early. I was even this way with Whittingham after the UNLV debacle. With that background in place, firing Whittingham shouldn't even be in the discussion until he has coached 5-full seasons in the Pac-12. The jump to the higher level of competition is much greater than anyone guessed. Look at TCU as another example of moving up in competition.

Whittingham has enough good will and capital built up at Utah that he deserves 5 full seasons.

[Sullyute]

I've frequently been accused of being someone who wants to pull the trigger on coaches too early. I was even this way with Whittingham after the UNLV debacle. With that background in place, firing Whittingham shouldn't even be in the discussion until he has coached 5-full seasons in the Pac-12. The jump to the higher level of competition is much greater than anyone guessed. Look at TCU as another example of moving up in competition.

Whittingham has enough good will and capital built up at Utah that he deserves 5 full seasons.

I agree. :highfive:

[sancho]

Stewart Mandel at SI tweets:


Stewart Mandel ‏@slmandel (https://twitter.com/slmandel)1h (https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/402531441931595776)
Utah has had the worst luck with QBs. Everyone says "oh, they weren't cut out for the Pac-12" -- one good healthy QB changes that narrative.

[wally]

I've frequently been accused of being someone who wants to pull the trigger on coaches too early. I was even this way with Whittingham after the UNLV debacle. With that background in place, firing Whittingham shouldn't even be in the discussion until he has coached 5-full seasons in the Pac-12. The jump to the higher level of competition is much greater than anyone guessed. Look at TCU as another example of moving up in competition.

Whittingham has enough good will and capital built up at Utah that he deserves 5 full seasons.

I agree. For a head coaching change to happen after this season, it would have to mean that Hill has some bat shit crazy amazing hire in his back pocket. Like, Jim Harbaugh wants to coach at Utah or something insane.

[LA Ute]

I agree. For a head coaching change to happen after this season, it would have to mean that Hill has some bat shit crazy amazing hire in his back pocket. Like, Jim Harbaugh wants to coach at Utah or something insane.

Sheesh, wally, you promised not to tell anyone about that Harbaugh thing.

[SoCalPat]

I've frequently been accused of being someone who wants to pull the trigger on coaches too early. I was even this way with Whittingham after the UNLV debacle. With that background in place, firing Whittingham shouldn't even be in the discussion until he has coached 5-full seasons in the Pac-12. The jump to the higher level of competition is much greater than anyone guessed. Look at TCU as another example of moving up in competition.

Whittingham has enough good will and capital built up at Utah that he deserves 5 full seasons.

Exactly. If after the 2015 season, we're on a run of four straight losing/bowl-less seasons, it's an easy call to move on. Kyle's contract runs through 2016 and you certainly wouldn't extend a coach who has the program in worse shape from a W-L perspective than he did when he first entered the league.

[mpfunk]

Exactly. If after the 2015 season, we're on a run of four straight losing/bowl-less seasons, it's an easy call to move on. Kyle's contract runs through 2016 and you certainly wouldn't extend a coach who has the program in worse shape from a W-L perspective than he did when he first entered the league.

By that time it is an easy call and no one is going to be critical of the move. Fire Whittingham after this season and you are going to severely prejudice your ability to find a coach. Coaches will look at Utah as a school with a quick trigger and it will limit our options. If you fire him after 5 years of not progress in the Pac-12, coaches aren't going to look at it as a quick trigger move and will believe that they will get a fair chance to rebuild at Utah.

Plus, by that time we have Boylen's buyout off the books. I don't see how Utah can be paying 4 coaches in 2 revenue sports.

Of course these points are ancillary to the fact that Whittingham deserves 5-years. He has earned it, we should give it to him.

[wally]

Sheesh, wally, you promised not to tell anyone about that Harbaugh thing.

Well shoot. Looks like I have single handedly messed up another awesome coaching hire. Sorry!

[sancho]

2013 Utah frustrating loss power rankings:

1) ASU. I went through all stages of grief with this loss. When we went up 2 scores, I really believed we were going to win.

2) Arizona. Really needed this game as a follow up to the Stanford win. Our most winnable conference road game. Blew a 4th quarter lead. Couldn't stop Carey.

3) WSU. The blow was softened a little bit by Utah announcing from the very start that we intended to lose the game. Gave me four whole quarters to get used to the idea. Still, made it close and was 1 drive away with 5 minutes remaining from winning the game. The worst team that beat us this year? We really needed this game, and the defense let us down.

4) UCLA. 6 picks - most of them on deflections. Not good passes, but so much bad luck too. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

5) OSU. The loss hurt, but it was also somewhat encouraging, as we displayed signs of an offense for the first time in forever. Wilson led the team on TD drives after every pick. We lost, but we had hope (unfounded hope, as it turns out) that the offense was fixed.

6) USC. After the Zona loss, expectations were low, and the Utes delivered.

7) Oregon. Back-up QB, in Eugene. Nobody expected a win, and we kept it entertaining for a half.

[USS Utah]

Back in August, the Ute fans I knew were talking about getting to 6 wins, but what would they have thought if we had known we were going to lose Kenneth Scott in the first quarter of the first game of the season, then lose Murphy for 3 or 4 games, and Tonga for the season, and then Wilson for the last three games, after trying to play with an injured hand?

Yeah, Utah doesn't have Pac-12 depth yet, and due to some mistakes in recruiting, they have had to play a former walk on at QB, but this is year three in, what is this year at least, the second best conference in the nation. Folks, we aren't in Kansas (the MWC) anymore.

In the MWC, Utah had 4 out of conference games and then 4 or 5 mediocre teams to find six wins against. In the Pac-12, the Utes have only three out of conference games, and outside of Cal and Colorado this year, there aren't a lot bad teams to beat up on.

[LA Ute]

Back in August, the Ute fans I knew were talking about getting to 6 wins, but what would they have thought if we had known we were going to lose Kenneth Scott in the first quarter of the first game of the season, then lose Murphy for 3 or 4 games, and Tonga for the season, and then Wilson for the last three games, after trying to play with an injured hand?

Yeah, Utah doesn't have Pac-12 depth yet, and due to some mistakes in recruiting, they have had to play a former walk on at QB, but this is year three in, what is this year at least, the second best conference in the nation. Folks, we aren't in Kansas (the MWC) anymore.

In the MWC, Utah had 4 out of conference games and then 4 or 5 mediocre teams to find six wins against. In the Pac-12, the Utes have only three out of conference games, and outside of Cal and Colorado this year, there aren't a lot bad teams to beat up on.

This is all true and important to keep in mind, I think. What is happening with me (and more than a few others) is that cracks are forming in the foundation of our confidence in Kyle. The way he's approached the offense and hiring assistants are the two things that worry me. I'm still in his camp but I'm worried.

[USS Utah]

This is all true and important to keep in mind, I think. What is happening with me (and more than a few others) is that cracks are forming in the foundation of our confidence in Kyle. The way he's approached the offense and hiring assistants are the two things that worry me. I'm still in his camp but I'm worried.

What's happened is that Utah just went through murderer's row. Losing is painful.

[Devildog]

This is all true and important to keep in mind, I think. What is happening with me (and more than a few others) is that cracks are forming in the foundation of our confidence in Kyle. The way he's approached the offense and hiring assistants are the two things that worry me. I'm still in his camp but I'm worried.

I still support Kyle because I have watched him achieve great success in the past.

However, I haven't seen it since we joined the PAC 12. Even our first year in (The Sun Bowl season) we really didn't meet expectations and we've slipped from there.

If Kyle can't find a way to win in the PAC soon... he will be gone.

Stanford was a great time... but we haven't won since.

We do not have even an average PAC 12 team here. This is a game of inches and we have a team that can compete, but we lose too many of the plays and individual battles along the way... to actually win the games.

I will support Kyle next year... but I want to see progress.

[LA Ute]

What's happened is that Utah just went through murderer's row. Losing is painful.

That's one thing that's happened. The discussion is about the cause, and whether we have any confidence that things will change significantly. I just don't know. But this is about more than just disappointed or angry fans.

[jrj84105]

That's one thing that's happened. The discussion is about the cause, and whether we have any confidence that things will change significantly. I just don't know. But this is about more than just disappointed or angry fans.

The issue is trajectory. When we entered the PAC we were on par or ahead of Arizona, Oregon State, Washington State, and Colorado from a talent perspective. All of these teams have dealt with injuries at key positions, including QB, and Oregon State was decimated by injuries when we played this year.
2011: 3W/1L
2012: 2W/2L
2013: 0W/3L/1?

We have also gone from the recruiting leader in this cohort to falling behind Arizona and OSU the past two years and potentially WSU as well this year.
Our biggest issues QB depth, O-Line, and defensive scheme against spread offenses have not improved.

The move to the PAC12 breaks up the timeline of decline by making it seem like we only have 3 years to look at when really this is the same pattern of decline that occurred in 2009 and 2010. That is five straight years of decline attributable to three identified but uncorrected problems. The issue isn't that we're in a terrible place, it's that we've found ourselves in a worse position than the preceding year for five straight years.

[USS Utah]

That's one thing that's happened. The discussion is about the cause, and whether we have any confidence that things will change significantly. I just don't know. But this is about more than just disappointed or angry fans.

I am seeing more emotion than logic in these discussions.

[crazyute]

I am seeing more emotion than logic in these discussions.
I don't see this at all. infact I think most have been rather reasonable and brought great points to the discussion.

you seem to be a little emotional that not everyone agrees with you.

[SoCalPat]

Might as well get this started, seeing the season is essentially over as far as what we wanted the program to achieve. Some thoughts:

The offense was a significant step up this year, cumulatively, and even after it was clear Travis Wilson was at less than 100 percent, was still better in long stretches over anything we had last year. Consider this: With one game to go, Utah has already surpassed last season's point total (326-320). Also consider that Utah had NINE non-offensive touchdowns in 2012, to only two this year. Take away those scores (and the resulting PATs), and Utah's offense has scored 312 points to last year's 257 points. And there's still one game to go. Putting up 45 offensive points on Colorado would mean a 100-point improvement from 2012 to 2013. Even with a 28-point effort to get to 340 offensive points, that's a per game average of 28.3 PPG to last year's 21.4 PPG.

For all of the issues the offense has had this year (pass blocking, rotating RBs, injured starting QB, losing Ken Scott on second series of year, weak-handed WRs contributing to Pick-6s, losing Jake Murphy for long stretches, losing his backup in Weslee Tonga for the season), I don't see how we can be too critical of things. Dennis Erickson was a genius hire by Kyle, and DE more than earned his paycheck this year. That we very well could be starting at Square One at QB is worrisome, but for another thread.

But what's more troublesome for Utah football and certain individuals associated with it is the plunge the defense took this year. Prior to this season, Utah had lost only 5 games in which it scored 27 or more points. One was 2009 TCU, which was a juggernaut. A second was 2012 USC. Both games featured backdoor TDs by Utah's reserves to get us to 28 points. The other three (2005, 2006 UNM; 2006 BYU) all featured Utah leads late. This year, Utah lost three games in which it scored 27 or more points, and only in one of those games did it hold a lead late (Oregon State).

Now, the OSU and WSU games featured a total of three Pick-6s, and without those, you could argue that Utah wins those games (simple math makes it an automatic assumption). But without those Pick-6s, OSU scores 38 points in regulation; WSU 37. Do you realize that until Arizona State boat-raced us last year in Tempe, if you wanted to score 36 points or more against a Utah defense, you had to go undefeated? (2006 BSU, 2009-10 TCU). Kyle teams have given up 30 or more points 13 times in Pac-12 play. We're 1-12 in those games. At least previous teams could hang their hat on creating turnovers and defensive TDs. This year's unit past Trevor Reilly cannot make anywhere close to such a claim.

I think Kyle has some serious housecleaning to do this year. I would hand over control of the entire offense to Erickson and I would sign off on anything he wants. If DE wants Dan Finn and Andy Roderick to remain as position coaches, then I'm for it. If DE has his own guys that can come in, bring 'em here. The defense is a lot tougher to figure out. As much as I like Sharrief Shah, I think he has to go (I admit to offering inconsistent views on this subject). Only two INTs for a defense? Just one more stop in either of the OSU or WSU games, and maybe we're 5-6 (or 6-5). I think that kind of non-production is a fireable offense. I also encourage Morgan Scalley to spread his wings and try and advance his career. Kilani Sitake, too.

I don't think Kyle is a great tactician by any stretch and I don't think it's a coincidence that the football gods have meted out huge punishment for the indefensible, brain-dead decision to try a FG late in the Arizona game. But he knows the game, knows the culture that makes Utah football unique (ie, the missionary aspect), has shown loyalty to Utah in spades and has shown capable of racking up wins when he has the same starting QB for 6 or 7 games in a row. I said it somewhere else and I'll share it here: Kyle is like your significant other. S/he will do things that make you swear under your breath or scream out loud. But by and large, s/he is best for what you're trying to accomplish in life and the high moments make it all worthwhile. Plus, you probably think a little too much of yourself if you think you can go out and get better.

[sancho]

Might as well get this started, seeing the season is essentially over as far as what we wanted the program to achieve. Some thoughts:


This is a great and reasonable post. Thanks.

On the defense - we seem to be up and down. Our defense was tremendous against Stanford, USC, UCLA and ASU. The defense showed up against BYU. The defense really struggled with WSU and Kadeem Carey (I think NFL defenses will also struggle with him in a year). We held Oregon to one of their lowest outputs of the season, but you can't really say the defense was great in that game. I want to say that we just match up better with some systems than others, but those 5 good defensive games represent a decent variety of offensive styles.

I was very worried about the defense in August - no Star, the LBrs, the secondary. It all looked suspect. I never thought our defense would be enough to keep us in games vs good teams. The secondary has had some good games. And in the two worst games for the secondary -- WSU and OSU -- we often gave up good plays despite being solid in coverage. That to me says that we were close.

Everything I read about turnovers (which admittedly is not much) indicates that luck is as big a factor as anything. Some teams will go +10 one year and -8 the next year without any major changes in personnel. We had few picks this year. That number will fluctuate. We did seem to get our share or more of fumbles, including some big ones in our wins.

We generated a pass rush better this season than last.

On the coaches, I like giving DE control of personnel, though I hope he would retain Johnson. On the defense, I am of the opinion that recruiting is the single most important aspect of coaching in college, and if Scalley and Shaw are great recruiters, I want them. Again, I don't think the secondary was a disaster this season. It was Shaw's first year on the job, and I think his boys did alright. Let's give him a chance to improve. I don't know much about him, but maybe he's a good learner? Maybe he has a good football mind or a great work ethic? Let him go pick some brains this offseason and learn more about his job.

[DrumNFeather]

You know, I think there are a lot of things that Urban tought Kyle in the two years they were together that really helped Kyle get his feet underneath him as a head coach those first few years. Now that he is settled in and going into (we presume) year nine, I think DE is the perfect guy to help him get himself as a coach to that next level. I agree with the DE comments. I think you turn the offense over to him, and, you get him heavily involved in the recruiting plan. DE has got to have a network of coaches and recruiters a mile long, and if he can use some of his influence to get those guys to come to Utah, I think we could see some solid progress made along that front.

[Solon]

Kyle is like your significant other. S/he will do things that make you swear under your breath or scream out loud. But by and large, s/he is best for what you're trying to accomplish in life and the high moments make it all worthwhile. Plus, you probably think a little too much of yourself if you think you can go out and get better.

This is a great line.

I agree with Drum that Urban probably taught Kyle a lot.

Kyle has never coached outside of the Utah-Idaho corridor. Nothing wrong with that, but I think the culture of insularity has caught up with him.

As Salt Lake City has grown up, as the U has grown up in to a regional school with real academic-research chops, we have seen an influx of outside cultures & ideas into the Salt Lake County environment. It's time for Kyle to do the same.

I think this will help on many fronts, whether it's having someone able to speak truth to power (it takes awhile for a former player to be 100% comfortable in disagreeing with a former coach, as he transitions from student to colleague) or on the recruiting front as the Utes step outside of traditional patterns. Football coaches are notoriously conservative. The occasional innovator makes a lot of hay with new ideas (see: Walter Campbell, Frank Beamer, Urban Meyer). I wouldn't mind seeing some more innovation, even if it is only in the form of new people from different programs in different parts of the country. This is an advantage that the Utes have over other regional schools (such as the byu) but has yet to fully exploit.

[UBlender]

I appreciate this thread as it is nice to see some discussion of the actual results of the season and the changes that could be made that is based on reasoned analysis and not just knee-jerk reactions. It is refreshing while so much of the Ute corners of the internet are littered with "Fire Whitt!/No, that's stupid!" debates, which are pretty much useless right now.

I also appreciate Pat confirming what I have believed all season--this offense, while ugly at times (hello, USC), was in fact better than last season and not just by a slim margin, either. That tells me that Erickson was a good hire and the Erickson-Wilson combo was PAC-12 caliber and will be again if we ever get the old Travis Wilson back. I like the direction on offense under Erickson provided that, one way or another, we have a capable QB and LT. We also need WRs, but simply having a healthy Ken Scott to go with Dres will make that unit much improved.

Defensively, the place I disagree a little is that I think the secondary issues reflect much more on Scalley right now than Shah. Keith McGill went from a benched safety to a lockdown corner under Shah. As a freshman, Justin Thomas is on a very good career trajectory, one that will compare favorably to Brice McCain (including the constant complaining of a segment of Ute fans because he is beaten occasionally due to his lack of size). Anyway, I give Shah some credit for coaching up those corners, who IMO did fine for the most part but were consistently let down by a complete lack of safety support. I also believe Shah will be a dynamite recruiter given another year or two to establish his connections. Scalley's position group disappointed, but I'm not sure you can let him go and lose his recruiting prowess unless you are able to have Erickson bring in some excellent recruiters on offense.

It's a bit of a conundrum. I am confident there will be 2-3 coaching changes but I'm not sure the ones being called for all over the internet are the ones that will happen. In my opinion some coaches are being beaten down right now due to their position groups being undermanned (recruiting misses are a big part of this) when those coaches are easily qualified for their jobs and in some cases have a long track record of solid coaching.

So obviously I'm uncertain of the answers. However, I believe the biggest issue is that we need to improve recruiting. We seem to have lost our surging momentum from the Sugar Bowl/PAC 12 bump. Last year's class was okay but included few real difference-makers and our highest rated recruit has been a huge bust (with just one year left to reverse the trend--Lewis). This year's class is trending in the same direction....sure, it would blow away most any class we had in the MWC but I'm not seeing many single recruits to really get excited about, especially for early contributions. Frankly, these classes put us in the bottom third of the PAC 12 from a recruiting standpoint and that is likely where we will project to remain on the field.

I think coaching changes need to be done with an eye on recruiting opportunities. We are a fairly well-coached team this year--we don't put the ball on the ground, we have an INT problem that IMO is more a function of talent and experience at certain positions, penalties are not a big issue, we are assignment sound on defense, etc. That tells me that we simply need to get better players. We need to recruit player and we need to get back to better player development. Any staff changes need to happen ASAP so we can get recruiters in position. Erickson is a good step here, but we need some new blood along with him. We need some dynamite recruiters that have the ears of some players already. No, we won't have 4 and 5 star kids banging down our door, but we just need to have a handful of difference makers spread across every position group.

We can be decent next year, even with the tougher schedule, but we need a handful of players to emerge at key spots (LT, safety, WR, possibly QB, etc). I don't believe many of those players we need in those spots are currently on the roster (though a few probably are). We need to find a way to get those players--if we can find a coach who can bring in 2-3 really good recruits then it will be worth it.

This team also needs a break, just a little luck. I can't think of a team I have followed in sports that has been as snake-bitten (in the context of a single season) than this Utah team. From the off-field tragedies to career ending and season ending injuries to academic casualties all the way down to the turnover issues. Utah had an unbelievable knack to have any pass deflected on offense turn into an INT while any pass deflected on defense seemed to find an empty space on the field. I get that Utah had serious deficiencies on both sides that caused this ridiculous INT deficiency but there is no help to be had here. We have been great at pressuring the passer against teams not named Oregon State or Washington State and yet we can't get these guys to throw an errant, catchable pass to save our lives. Simply put, nothing has gone Utah's way this year. I keep thinking the law of averages says Utah is due for a lot of breaks and will one day have a healthy QB...but I've been thinking that about each game this season. "We've had terrible luck on turnovers this season, this is the game where we are finally due for a QB to make a couple mistakes that find a defenders arms...." Nope, nothing.

Of course, the law of averages will probably come due and Utah will be +8 in turnovers against CU in a meaningless game just to spite us. If it weren't for bad luck, Utah would have no luck at all.

(Sorry, I had to rant about this).

[sancho]

Assemble a super-team of cast off coaches - Will Muschamp as DC, Mack Brown as RB coach, Lane Kiffin as recruiting specialist, Rick Neuheisal as WR coach, and Jeff Tedford as QB coach, and Jim Tressel as sweater vest. Those guys would have a blast together.

[sancho]

Some questions as the season nears an end:

What am I supposed to make of this season's high finish in the Sagarin rankings? Does it mean those rankings are broken? Does it mean we really are a little better than our record?

Can we buy out of Fresno St and replace them with Weber State?

Will that kid going to Michigan reconsider now that the Wolverines stink? If we beat Michigan next season, will it cost Brady Hoke his dream job? I'd like that.

[SoCalPat]

Some questions as the season nears an end:

What am I supposed to make of this season's high finish in the Sagarin rankings? Does it mean those rankings are broken? Does it mean we really are a little better than our record?

Can we buy out of Fresno St and replace them with Weber State?

The latter. Going 4-2 in the first half of the season, with the two losses coming by a total of 10 points (one in OT) was not an accident. We are what we are right now, but what we are now isn't what we were in the first half of the season.

Also, we already have a FCS team on the schedule in Idaho State.

[mpfunk]

I agree that DE has been great for this team and that Whittingham needs to just hand the offense over to him and tell him to do his thing. That is a decision that will save Whittingham his job and make him the guy to transition this team in the Pac-12. I think he doesn't make that decision, it will end up being the decision that ultimately costs him his job in 2 years.

If things don't work out for Whittingham, which I certainly hope they do, it will be 1) the hiring of BJ as OC and 2) not allowing DE to fix this mess that will be his undoing.

[LA Ute]

This team also needs a break, just a little luck. I can't think of a team I have followed in sports that has been as snake-bitten (in the context of a single season) than this Utah team. From the off-field tragedies to career ending and season ending injuries to academic casualties all the way down to the turnover issues. Utah had an unbelievable knack to have any pass deflected on offense turn into an INT while any pass deflected on defense seemed to find an empty space on the field. I get that Utah had serious deficiencies on both sides that caused this ridiculous INT deficiency but there is no help to be had here. We have been great at pressuring the passer against teams not named Oregon State or Washington State and yet we can't get these guys to throw an errant, catchable pass to save our lives. Simply put, nothing has gone Utah's way this year. I keep thinking the law of averages says Utah is due for a lot of breaks and will one day have a healthy QB...but I've been thinking that about each game this season. "We've had terrible luck on turnovers this season, this is the game where we are finally due for a QB to make a couple mistakes that find a defenders arms...." Nope, nothing.

This is a good reminder that we (I) need to temper our disappointment with the reality of luck not going our way. That doesn't excuse anything but it's part of the picture. When you think about it, 2008 was a very lucky year. Yes, the Utes earned their success, no doubt about it. But every bounce of the ball went our way too. To go undefeated always requires some luck.


This is a great line.

Agreed. SCP at his very best.


As Salt Lake City has grown up, as the U has grown up in to a regional school with real academic-research chops, we have seen an influx of outside cultures & ideas into the Salt Lake County environment. It's time for Kyle to do the same.

I think this will help on many fronts, whether it's having someone able to speak truth to power (it takes awhile for a former player to be 100% comfortable in disagreeing with a former coach, as he transitions from student to colleague) or on the recruiting front as the Utes step outside of traditional patterns. Football coaches are notoriously conservative. The occasional innovator makes a lot of hay with new ideas (see: Walter Campbell, Frank Beamer, Urban Meyer). I wouldn't mind seeing some more innovation, even if it is only in the form of new people from different programs in different parts of the country. This is an advantage that the Utes have over other regional schools (such as the byu) but has yet to fully exploit.

This is really an excellent expression of what has been bugging me about KW for several years now.


On the coaches, I like giving DE control of personnel, though I hope he would retain Johnson. On the defense, I am of the opinion that recruiting is the single most important aspect of coaching in college, and if Scalley and Shaw are great recruiters, I want them. Again, I don't think the secondary was a disaster this season. It was Shaw's first year on the job, and I think his boys did alright. Let's give him a chance to improve. I don't know much about him, but maybe he's a good learner? Maybe he has a good football mind or a great work ethic? Let him go pick some brains this offseason and learn more about his job.

These are pretty reasonable points. Putting DE in charge and gracefully ending the fiction that BJ is co-OC will help the program. I hope it happens.

[USS Utah]

I don't see this at all. infact I think most have been rather reasonable and brought great points to the discussion.

you seem to be a little emotional that not everyone agrees with you.

Go over to UF.N

Or the Ute facebook page -- UteNation.

And, yeah, there is some emotion here, too.

[LA Ute]

Since we are well past the mid-season I recommend SCP's thread here. Lots of analysis, very little emotion.

http://www.utahby5.com/showthread.php?1273-The-2013-Season-Review-Thread

[mpfunk]

So if you are Whittingham which of these decisions would you turn over to DE.

Offensive coaching staff
Personnel on offense
Offensive scheme

I think he needs to give all 3 over to DE. DE has forgotten more about offensive than Whittingham will probably ever know. If making these decisions leads to the firing of Whittingham's favorite coach, BJ, so be it.

Also, the less Whittingham is involved in the offense the more that he can work at fixing the defense which has been regressing. Whittingham has forgotten more about defensive than the rest of the staff will probably ever know.

[SoCalPat]

I want to caution about over-selling the "woe be us" card, because I think it gives coaches and players an excuse into accepting 4-8/5-7. Yes, we had some horrible breaks along the injury front. Ultimately, that's what decided our season. But quite frankly, I think Utah caught a lot of massive breaks this year. We simply didn't fully capitalize on them. We had the onsides kick we recovered vs. UCLA, but couldn't convert that into a OT-forcing TD drive. We had a Pick-6 vs. UCLA on a night where we threw 6 INTs. We had Stanford deciding to pass on two downs from the 4 when it could've used its run game to get a first down (and stop the clock) or even get a TD. We got Oregon after a loss and with Mariota clearly hobbled. We rallied from two scores down to lead at Arizona, using a trick play for the go-ahead score with a backup QB.

That doesn't change the face that the pass defense was abysmal vs. OSU and WSU, or that Kyle royally screwed the pooch at the end of the Arizona game, or that we couldn't get the first down or two vs. ASU in the fourth quarter that likely would have won the game. That's on the coaching staff, and those are things it has to take full ownership.

[LA Ute]

I want to caution about over-selling the "woe be us" card, because I think it gives coaches and players an excuse into accepting 4-8/5-7. Yes, we had some horrible breaks along the injury front. Ultimately, that's what decided our season. But quite frankly, I think Utah caught a lot of massive breaks this year. We simply didn't fully capitalize on them. We had the onsides kick we recovered vs. UCLA, but couldn't convert that into a OT-forcing TD drive. We had a Pick-6 vs. UCLA on a night where we threw 6 INTs. We had Stanford deciding to pass on two downs from the 4 when it could've used its run game to get a first down (and stop the clock) or even get a TD. We got Oregon after a loss and with Mariota clearly hobbled. We rallied from two scores down to lead at Arizona, using a trick play for the go-ahead score with a backup QB.

That doesn't change the face that the pass defense was abysmal vs. OSU and WSU, or that Kyle royally screwed the pooch at the end of the Arizona game, or that we couldn't get the first down or two vs. ASU in the fourth quarter that likely would have won the game. That's on the coaching staff, and those are things it has to take full ownership.

It is an iron rule of life that luck favors the hard-working and well-prepared. In my world luck is just part of the total picture as we try to assess just how serious a problem is and what needs to be done to address it. So luck can help explain things, but it can never excuse mistakes or poor preparation. You're spot-on about the things the coaches own this season.

[sancho]

So if you are Whittingham which of these decisions would you turn over to DE.

Offensive coaching staff
Personnel on offense
Offensive scheme

I think he needs to give all 3 over to DE. DE has forgotten more about offensive than Whittingham will probably ever know. If making these decisions leads to the firing of Whittingham's favorite coach, BJ, so be it.

Also, the less Whittingham is involved in the offense the more that he can work at fixing the defense which has been regressing. Whittingham has forgotten more about defensive than the rest of the staff will probably ever know.

I agree. I also admit that I don't know how involved Whittingham currently is with the offense. Did he already more or less turn it over to DE this year, or was he playing a big role in scheme/personnel decisions?

BJ had good moments as a play caller last year. I can't really judge him on anything else. He didn't have a good QB/offense to work with. I would feel fine with letting DE decide if he adds enough in ability and potential to keep him.

[sancho]

So luck can help explain things, but it can never excuse mistakes or poor preparation.

I disagree. Luck is real, and sometimes all the preparation/talent/execution in the world won't be enough to overcome a really bad break. If LeBron James tears his achilles tomorrow, the Heat aren't winning the championship, and their coaching/practice/attitude would have nothing to do with that. That's just my thought in general -- not really as applied to this team or season.

Sometimes as fans we like to take a no excuses attitude. I think excuses are fine if they are valid.

[LA Ute]

I disagree. Luck is real, and sometimes all the preparation/talent/execution in the world won't be enough to overcome a really bad break. If LeBron James tears his achilles tomorrow, the Heat aren't winning the championship, and their coaching/practice/attitude would have nothing to do with that. That's just my thought in general -- not really as applied to this team or season.

Sometimes as fans we like to take a no excuses attitude. I think excuses are fine if they are valid.

If that happens to LeBron, it's probably not the result of a mistake or poor preparation.

[Devildog]

I am seeing more emotion than logic in these discussions.

There is going to be emotion involved when the Utes go 8-18 in conference play since joining the PAC 12.

No matter how you look at that... it aint good.

Recruiting and coaching play a major role in that record. Kyle is responsible for both.

I understand giving him a chance to acclimate... but it's time to see some progress.

[USS Utah]

There is going to be emotion involved when the Utes go 8-18 in conference play since joining the PAC 12.

No matter how you look at that... it aint good.

Recruiting and coaching play a major role in that record. Kyle is responsible for both.

I understand giving him a chance to acclimate... but it's time to see some progress.

Of course there will be emotion. But no one should make a decision based on emotion. We must at least try to find balance with logic and reason.

[wally]

Personally, before blowing everything up, I would like to see what this cast of characters can do with continuity at OC, which is something that we have not had for, what, 5 years or so? Recruiting is recruiting, and always needs improving no matter who you are or talk to.

[DrumNFeather]

One thing I'd like to explore here that I don't understand or seems unclear is the RB rotation we used this year. We had at times four guys that could be effective: York, Poole, Radley, Williams. But for the most part the scheme/plan seemed to be "ride the hot hand" which then totally marginalized the other 2-3 RBs at times. I'm not saying we needed just one guy in the Wolfman mode, because I think we ran him into the ground, but It just seemed like the RB rotation and/or the use of the RBs in the offense was a little odd. Given that Radely and Poole were better on the edge, and York and Williams were better between the tackles, I would've liked to see more plays with both types of RBs in the game to open up more possibilities and give the defense a little something more to think about.

I would also like the coaches to teach our QBs how to run a sneak from under center. When you need a yard, you should be able to line up your 6'7 QB under center and have him fall forward for two yards.

[LA Ute]

I am seeing more emotion than logic in these discussions.

By the way, assuming you are right, good luck with convincing people of your position by repeatedly telling them they're being emotional.

[USS Utah]

By the way, assuming you are right, good luck with convincing people of your position by repeatedly telling them they're being emotional.

I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything a long time ago.

[LA Ute]

I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything a long time ago.

:D.

[concerned]

If that happens to LeBron, it's probably not the result of a mistake or poor preparation.

or Derrick Rose.

[USS Utah]

I recall the talk in August was about hopefully getting back to a bowl game and how that was going to be difficult considering the schedule.

Speaking for myself, While I hoped for a bowl game, I didn't think missing one would necessarily put Whit on the hot seat.

Nothing that happened this season has changed my thinking.

[LA Ute]

Here are some interesting tweets by John Madsen:

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404703372424404992

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404703635444994048

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404715863594373120

[DrumNFeather]

Here are some interesting tweets by John Madsen:

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404703372424404992

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404703635444994048

https://twitter.com/JOHN_MADSEN/statuses/404715863594373120

That Jarid guy seems like a real piece of work.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2

[Jarid in Cedar]

That Jarid guy seems like a real piece of work.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2


Total tool.

[jrj84105]

If things don't work out for Whittingham, which I certainly hope they do, it will be 1) the hiring of BJ as OC and 2) not allowing DE to fix this mess that will be his undoing.
Agreed entirely. Just add the one that hit home this week, number 3) inability to install basic zone coverage schemes in keeping the the proliferation so spread to pass offenses in our league.

1&2 are sort of stop doing silly things while number 3 is do something well that you haven't done before. The latter actually worries me more, and I don't know what the solution is but expect that it will involve new players and some new infusion of coaching ideas.

i think DE was a fantastic hire in every respect. The O-line is the only clear coaching change that has to happen, although DE should be free to change the entire offensive staff if he wants. I like what Shah is building. McGill is a great success story, and I think the recruiting relationships will bear fruit sooner rather than later. Tuiaki is a solid upgrade.

[SeattleUte]

I want to caution about over-selling the "woe be us" card, because I think it gives coaches and players an excuse into accepting 4-8/5-7. Yes, we had some horrible breaks along the injury front. Ultimately, that's what decided our season. But quite frankly, I think Utah caught a lot of massive breaks this year. We simply didn't fully capitalize on them. We had the onsides kick we recovered vs. UCLA, but couldn't convert that into a OT-forcing TD drive. We had a Pick-6 vs. UCLA on a night where we threw 6 INTs. We had Stanford deciding to pass on two downs from the 4 when it could've used its run game to get a first down (and stop the clock) or even get a TD. We got Oregon after a loss and with Mariota clearly hobbled. We rallied from two scores down to lead at Arizona, using a trick play for the go-ahead score with a backup QB.

That doesn't change the face that the pass defense was abysmal vs. OSU and WSU, or that Kyle royally screwed the pooch at the end of the Arizona game, or that we couldn't get the first down or two vs. ASU in the fourth quarter that likely would have won the game. That's on the coaching staff, and those are things it has to take full ownership.

The sickening thing about this post is contemplating what might have been. On the other hand, I don't know if this was Pat's intention, but this post highlights that we aren't really that far from being competitive or even having a great season in the pac 12. Personally, I think that having more depth at quarterback and, yes, a little more luck with our starting quarterbacks' health would make all the difference in the world. HELOOO!!! It's a quarterback's game. Just look at what's happened to Green Bay since Aaron Rogers went down (NFL teams all have Ute-style depth at qb because they can't afford quality back ups like in the old days).

Whit is to blame for 9 years of no depth at the quarterback position. But hell sakes, Pat's post shows that this season has in many respects been a for want of a nail season. We've all seen that it can get much worse. We've seen this happen where a coach who had brought the program spectacular success was pushed out while still in his prime. It wouldn't be hard to push this football program into an abyss that would be harder to recover from than we've experienced with basketball. Right now, I don't want to fire Whit, not now, not in 2015, not ever.

[SeattleUte]

It is an iron rule of life that luck favors the hard-working and well-prepared.

As someome who has received way more than his share of good luck, this generalization still rankles me. Hard work and preparation help, but there is no "iron rule of life that luck favors the hard-working and well-prepared". Have you ever heard of the problem of evil and suffering, LA? Go tell your iron rule to Travis Wilson who did nothing but put his body at risk for your satisfaction as a fan. Go tell it to the people of Tokloban.

[LA Ute]

As someome who has received way more than his share of good luck, this generalization still rankles me. Hard work and preparation help, but there is no "iron rule of life that luck favors the hard-working and well-prepared". Have you ever heard of the problem of evil and suffering, LA? Go tell your iron rule to Travis Wilson who did nothing but put his body at risk for your satisfaction as a fan. Go tell it to the people of Tokloban.

I was talking about the competitive arenas of sports and business. In those, if you work hard and are well-prepared, bad luck is generally much less devastating and one can often overcome it. You're right about luck and life in general.

[SeattleUte]

I was talking about the competitive arenas of sports and business. In those, if you work hard and are well-prepared, bad luck is generally much less devastating and one can often overcome it. You're right about luck and life in general.

I understand. :smileyface:

[crazyute]

I gave up trying to convince anyone of anything a long time ago.
huh? could have fooled me!:confused:

[crazyute]

Go over to UF.N

Or the Ute facebook page -- UteNation.

And, yeah, there is some emotion here, too.

why would i care what goes on over there? both those places are cesspools. we are here. and I am not seeing this emotion that you want make out? you should leave your issues with those places over there.

to tell people they are acting emotional here while you good sir are doing the same thing is rather assinine.

[LA Ute]

Sports is all about emotion, and that's especially true for sports fans. Our W-L arc in the PAC-12 in our first 3 seasons has been 4-5, 3-6, and 2-7 this season (if we win tomorrow). And based on past and recent history, we have to be a uncertain even of winning tomorrow as a 22-point favorite. So under the circumstances it would be downright weird if our fans were approaching the situation free from emotion. It's been a terribly disappointing season. We all react to that in different ways. As for me, I have ended up not really knowing what to think, but still feeling basically optimistic that we will improve steadily if the right steps are taken. I don't know what the right steps are.

[LA Ute]

I understand. :smileyface:

Lucky for me.

[SgtUte]

For those saying that Shah should be safe due to the improvement of the corners. Didn't the corners only improve once Whitt started to work with them individually? I remember him saying on a KALL700 interview that he had started to work with the DB's, but don't remember at which point during the season. I'm just wondering if the timing of their improvement was due to Whitt or just a coincidence???

[USS Utah]

why would i care what goes on over there? both those places are cesspools. we are here. and I am not seeing this emotion that you want make out? you should leave your issues with those places over there.

to tell people they are acting emotional here while you good sir are doing the same thing is rather assinine.

It's been my experience that people or groups that claim they are better than others usually aren't.

Goodbye

[LA Ute]

For those saying that Shah should be safe due to the improvement of the corners. Didn't the corners only improve once Whitt started to work with them individually? I remember him saying on a KALL700 interview that he had started to work with the DB's, but don't remember at which point during the season. I'm just wondering if the timing of their improvement was due to Whitt or just a coincidence???

Good question. I am still very skeptical that a former player who had never coached at any level (as far as I know -- certainly not at the D1 level), and has been out of football for 12 years while practicing law, can be trusted to take over as an important position coach in the PAC-12. It's simply crazy. If Whit had to step in and help Shah out, it's no wonder.

[DrumNFeather]

Good question. I am still very skeptical that a former player who had never coached at any level (as far as I know -- certainly not at the D1 level), and has been out of football for 12 years while practicing law, can be trusted to take over as an important position coach in the PAC-12. It's simply crazy. If Whit had to step in and help Shah out, it's no wonder.

When multiple teams rack up the amount of passing yards on your secondary, you'd better spend some time evaluating.

[Devildog]

We've all seen that it can get much worse. We've seen this happen where a coach who had brought the program spectacular success was pushed out while still in his prime. It wouldn't be hard to push this football program into an abyss that would be harder to recover from than we've experienced with basketball. Right now, I don't want to fire Whit, not now, not in 2015, not ever.

We are 8-18 in conference play.

How much worse can it really get than losing 2/3 of your games? Losing 3/4 of your games? Losing all your games? What exactly is the abyss?

I'm not saying Kyle should be packing his bags... but dude should be pretty pissed off at his staff right about now.

If my job performance involved losing 2/3 of what I was responsible for, 3 years after introduction... I'd be dragged in talking to my boss about my performance... guaranteed. At the least.

I'm spending ridiculous money on season tickets to watch this travesty.

[LA Ute]

We are 8-18 in conference play.

How much worse can it really get than losing 2/3 of your games? Losing 3/4 of your games? Losing all your games? What exactly is the abyss?

I'm not saying Kyle should be packing his bags... but dude should be pretty pissed off at his staff right about now.

If my job performance involved losing 2/3 of what I was responsible for, 3 years after introduction... I'd be dragged in talking to my boss about my performance... guaranteed. At the least.

I'm spending ridiculous money on season tickets to watch this travesty.

The won-loss trajectory in our PAC-12 games is what worries me.

2011: 4-5.
2012: 3-6.
2013: 2-7 (assuming a win tomorrow).

Yes, there are many factors to consider and we've beaten them all to death here. But our program's failing more with each passing year. That's the opposite of what we hope for and that the coaches get paid for. No reason to panic, but plenty of reason to be looking hard at the entire program.

[crazyute]

It's been my experience that people or groups that claim they are better than others usually aren't.

Goodbye
funny you would say this after the way you came. and even acted here? IRONY???

[USS Utah]

funny you would say this after the way you came. and even acted here? IRONY???

I never claimed to be better than anyone else.

I simply stated that I was seeing more emotion than logic.

Btw, here's a tip: because the written word does not have visual or audible clues, it is very easy to see a tone that isn't there.

[USS Utah]

The won-loss trajectory in our PAC-12 games is what worries me.

2011: 4-5.
2012: 3-6.
2013: 2-7 (assuming a win tomorrow).

Yes, there are many factors to consider and we've beaten them all to death here. But our program's failing more with each passing year. That's the opposite of what we hope for and that the coaches get paid for. No reason to panic, but plenty of reason to be looking hard at the entire program.

Context is everything.

The schedule has been progressively more difficult with each passing year.

[LA Ute]

Context is everything.

The schedule has been progressively more difficult with each passing year.

Both true statements. The PAC-12, by all accounts, has gotten better. So far, we haven't kept up. I think we still need time for the impact of PAC-12 level recruiting to kick in, for our full share of PAC-12 money to kick in, for the impact of the new facility to be felt, and so forth.

In light of all that, however, I wonder: If the PAC-12 is even better next season and we end up with another 2-8 or 3-6 record, will we still be saying, "It's a tough league, every week is a battle; our recruiting and talent level still needs to catch up," etc.? At some point we need to not only show noticeable improvement -- and I think we have shown that this year -- we need to start winning. Coaches who go 3 seasons without a bowl know their job's in jeopardy, and Kyle knows that too. It will be really interesting to see what he does in the off-season.

[concerned]

Both true statements. The PAC-12, by all accounts, has gotten better. So far, we haven't kept up. I think we still need time for the impact of PAC-12 level recruiting to kick in, for our full share of PAC-12 money to kick in, for the impact of the new facility to be felt, and so forth.

In light of all that, however, I wonder: If the PAC-12 is even better next season and we end up with another 2-8 or 3-6 record, will we still be saying, "It's a tough league, every week is a battle; our recruiting and talent level still needs to catch up," etc.? At some point we need to not only show noticeable improvement -- and I think we have shown that this year -- we need to start winning. Coaches who go 3 seasons without a bowl know their job's in jeopardy, and Kyle knows that too. It will be really interesting to see what he does in the off-season.

In 2011, aside from not playing Stanford or Oregon, we caught UA, WSU, and UCLA in down years whose coaches got fired. They all rebounded; we havent as much.

[crazyute]

I never claimed to be better than anyone else.

I simply stated that I was seeing more emotion than logic.

Btw, here's a tip: because the written word does not have visual or audible clues, it is very easy to see a tone that isn't there.

good for you. have a good day. keep telling others how to act.

[crazyute]

Context is everything.

The schedule has been progressively more difficult with each passing year.
with respect to the conference record you say this when we have a win against the best team in the conference. the conference schedule isn't getting more difficult. but our record has gotten worse every year. that is called other teams progressing and utah regressing.

[SeattleUte]

We are 8-18 in conference play.

How much worse can it really get than losing 2/3 of your games? Losing 3/4 of your games? Losing all your games? What exactly is the abyss?

I'm not saying Kyle should be packing his bags... but dude should be pretty pissed off at his staff right about now.

If my job performance involved losing 2/3 of what I was responsible for, 3 years after introduction... I'd be dragged in talking to my boss about my performance... guaranteed. At the least.

I'm spending ridiculous money on season tickets to watch this travesty.

It can get much worse. Are you ten years old? Have you ever traded stocks? Everything can always get a lot worse no matter how bad things are; there is no bottom. Ask our resident hedgehog.

Utah didn't win an outright Skyline, WAC or MWC title in over 40 years before Urban Meyer. During that span there were multiple one win seasons. We had a basketball season where we won five games. You think we can go hire another Urban Meyer? Utah would struggle to replace whit like it has struggled to find worthy coaches in basketball. In any event, Kyle had a record in 2008 that surpassed Meyer's 2004, he's got a system that has succeeded in the past spectacularly in a lesser conference. We were close in every game this season except at Oregon and the Oregon game was competitive. There are elements here of rocky transition and bad luck, despite that of course Kyle has made mistakes in this very complicated situation. To get an idea of the chasm between the MWC and the Pac 12 consider that if Utah State beats Wyoning this week it will play Fresno for the MWC title. I submit Utah State would be winless in the Pac 12 this season.

[crazyute]

The won-loss trajectory in our PAC-12 games is what worries me.

2011: 4-5.
2012: 3-6.
2013: 2-7 (assuming a win tomorrow).

Yes, there are many factors to consider and we've beaten them all to death here. But our program's failing more with each passing year. That's the opposite of what we hope for and that the coaches get paid for. No reason to panic, but plenty of reason to be looking hard at the entire program.
This is what is really bothersome. what if your assumption is wrong? 1-8? and that lone win to the best team in the conference. how is that explainable? let alone excusable?

[Devildog]

It can get much worse. Are you ten years old? Have you ever traded stocks? Everything can always get a lot worse no matter how bad things are; there is no bottom. Ask our resident hedgehog.


Yep, I'm 10.

Obviously it can get worse... but the argument could also be made that we already have one foot in the abyss since joining the PAC.

LA is correct about our recent trajectory also.

Did you see how many fans Washington State had in the stadium? Yeah, and they beat us. We have the same record as Colorado (and their stadium crowd aint what it used to be). How long does that continue until it becomes our "culture"?

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... we have a million reasons why our team hasn't won... but the fact is we are not winning, and the trajectory has not improved.

I recognize that the level of competition has improved... Hell, I just want to see progress.

[USS Utah]

good for you. have a good day. keep telling others how to act.

Where did I tell anyone how to act?

Arguments are fair game, people are not.

[SeattleUte]

Disclaimer: I am uncomfortable siding with USS on this issue because he was one of the notorious Boylen apologists. I guess that gives me more credibility.

[USS Utah]

Both true statements. The PAC-12, by all accounts, has gotten better. So far, we haven't kept up. I think we still need time for the impact of PAC-12 level recruiting to kick in, for our full share of PAC-12 money to kick in, for the impact of the new facility to be felt, and so forth.

In light of all that, however, I wonder: If the PAC-12 is even better next season and we end up with another 2-8 or 3-6 record, will we still be saying, "It's a tough league, every week is a battle; our recruiting and talent level still needs to catch up," etc.? At some point we need to not only show noticeable improvement -- and I think we have shown that this year -- we need to start winning. Coaches who go 3 seasons without a bowl know their job's in jeopardy, and Kyle knows that too. It will be really interesting to see what he does in the off-season.

Utah took a step backward in 2012 while most of Pac-12 got better. Four key HC hires occured before the 2012 season, 3 of them in Utah's division. Because of the improvement in the league the gap increased last year. As good as the Pac-12 was last year, it was even better this year, while Utah switched out Cal and Washington for Stanford and Oregon. It's not going to get easier next year as Utah will have five conference road games instead of four.

I do think Utah took a small step forward this year. The offense was clearly better against the OOC opponents than it had been in 2012. Despite the INTs, the offense played better in the early Pac-12 games. All of this despite losing Pedroza to off the field stuff and Scott to injury in the first quarter of the USU game. The offense fell off after losing both tight ends to injury, one for the season, the other for a few games, and after Wilson hurt his hand.

While the defense got off to a slow start this year, they did adjust and improve -- at least until the last two weeks. Utah's improvement did not register in the win-loss area, however, a few of these losses were in tight games where Utah did have chances, as opposed to last year when was not competitive in most conference games. Ironically, it seems that close losses are harder to take than blow out losses.

Hopefully, DE will stick around so Utah can have continuity at the OC position; that alone should pay dividends for the offense next year. Then maybe Utah will get over the hump and win a few of these tight games.

[USS Utah]

with respect to the conference record you say this when we have a win against the best team in the conference. the conference schedule isn't getting more difficult. but our record has gotten worse every year. that is called other teams progressing and utah regressing.

Utah matched up well against Stanford, and executed a good game plan. Unlike some other teams in the conference, the Cardinal doesn't spread you out and beat you with athleticism. Stanford had a chance to win on the last play of the game but didn't. This was the one tight game where Utah was able to hold on and get the win.

[Sullyute]

Good question. I am still very skeptical that a former player who had never coached at any level (as far as I know -- certainly not at the D1 level), and has been out of football for 12 years while practicing law, can be trusted to take over as an important position coach in the PAC-12. It's simply crazy. If Whit had to step in and help Shah out, it's no wonder.

I think that you are too hard on Shah. He has been involved with football in one way or another since he stopped playing. Here is is bio:


Shah has stayed closely tethered to the game since his days as a three-year Ute starter and all-Western Athletic Conference safety in the early 1990s.
From 1996-2002, he was certified as an agent through the National Football League's Player Association (NFLPA) and trained players for the NFL combine. From 2000-11, he was the sideline reporter for ESPN 700, Utah's flagship radio station. Before that, he spent three years as a sideline analyst for local television stations KUTV and KJZZ in their Ute broadcasts.
As an NFL agent, he negotiated multi-million dollar contracts and represented players in the NFL, CFL and NFL Europe. Among his clients was his brother Karim Abdul Jabbar (now known as Abdul Karim-Al Jabbar), an NFL running back for the Miami Dolphins, Cleveland Browns and Indianapolis Colts from 1996-2000.


I don't know about his coaching ability, but there are few people more passionate about Utah football than Shah. With his time as an agent, a broadcaster, and his diversity (lets be honest and say that having some diversity on staff helps, especially when recruiting speed for the DBs) this gives Utah some great potential in roads for recruiting. I think that we need to give him some more time to develope as a coach and to bring in recruits. I think that Whit hired Shah (and BJ) on potential. I agree that it is hard to allow that potential to grow in a PAC12 setting, but if we are patient it will pays dividends in the long run. JMHO.

[USS Utah]

Disclaimer: I am uncomfortable siding with USS on this issue because he was one of the notorious Boylen apologists. I guess that gives me more credibility.

I am notoriously slow in turning against coaches.

I am now fully on LK's bandwagon.

[SeattleUte]

I am notoriously slow in turning against coaches.

I am now fully on LK's bandwagon.

As a rule I am very slow to turn on coaches who have finished any season no. 2 in the nation.

[crazyute]

Utah matched up well against Stanford, and executed a good game plan. Unlike some other teams in the conference, the Cardinal doesn't spread you out and beat you with athleticism. Stanford had a chance to win on the last play of the game but didn't. This was the one tight game where Utah was able to hold on and get the win.
neither does usc or oregon st.

[USS Utah]

neither does usc or oregon st.

Mannion and Cooks are very good.

USC has one of the best defenses in the conference.

[crazyute]

Mannion and Cooks are very good.

USC has one of the best defenses in the conference.
stanford has a top defense and hogan and montgomery are pretty good themselves.

[Viking]

The PAC12 is ridiculously good this year. You guys had QB issues. Not sure there's much more to explain but stop being so damn glum. I'd take your record in the Pac12 over our lousy lot in life.

[Devildog]

The PAC12 is ridiculously good this year. You guys had QB issues. Not sure there's much more to explain but stop being so damn glum. I'd take your record in the Pac12 over our lousy lot in life.

The sad part about this is... that it isn't even much consolation.

Thanks for the effort though.

[LA Ute]

As a rule I am very slow to turn on coaches who have finished any season no. 2 in the nation.

Just to be clear, I'm not turning on Whit. I'm not sure anyone here is. My confidence in him is shaken and I don't really know what to think, but I think he gets two more years and I hope he can rise to the challenge. I think he can. We'll probably know more about that after another month or two.

[LA Ute]

I think that you are too hard on Shah. He has been involved with football in one way or another since he stopped playing. Here is is bio:

I don't know about his coaching ability, but there are few people more passionate about Utah football than Shah. With his time as an agent, a broadcaster, and his diversity (lets be honest and say that having some diversity on staff helps, especially when recruiting speed for the DBs) this gives Utah some great potential in roads for recruiting. I think that we need to give him some more time to develope as a coach and to bring in recruits. I think that Whit hired Shah (and BJ) on potential. I agree that it is hard to allow that potential to grow in a PAC12 setting, but if we are patient it will pays dividends in the long run. JMHO.

You may be right, but I am still worried about Kyle treating positions on the Utah coaching staff as entry-level jobs. It just seems to me that before getting a job like that in a PAC-12 program a guy ought to have seen a year or two at College of Southern Idaho or SUU and proven himself there. I'm old-fashioned, I guess; I believe in learning a business by starting at the bottom and paying some dues.

[sancho]

You may be right, but I am still worried about Kyle treating positions on the Utah coaching staff as entry-level jobs. It just seems to me that before getting a job like that in a PAC-12 program a guy ought to have seen a year or two at College of Southern Idaho or SUU and proven himself there. I'm old-fashioned, I guess; I believe in learning a business by starting at the bottom and paying some dues.

I care more about his ability, aptitude, and attitude than any number of years at SUU. Despite what the media would have you think, coaching is not rocket science. If Shaw is intelligent, he can learn the x's and o's, and he can keep up new developments, ideas, and systems. From what I understand, he has charisma, something you can't just learn.

Remember when UW stole that dude from Cal? It was a major coup. That guy's not a genius - he's just a great recruiter. And UW would let any other coach they have go before they lose that guy. I would rather have my 6 year old son coaching a bunch of talented players than Urban Meyer coaching a bunch of 2 star slugs. So, unless, Dion Sanders wants to coach our DBs, I'm fine with Shah. At least for a few years.

[sancho]

with respect to the conference record you say this when we have a win against the best team in the conference. the conference schedule isn't getting more difficult. but our record has gotten worse every year. that is called other teams progressing and utah regressing.

Maybe..or it might be other teams progressing and Utah progressing less quickly.

[sancho]

In light of all that, however, I wonder: If the PAC-12 is even better next season.

Teams that will be better next season: UW, USC, Utah, CU

Teams that won't be worse: WSU, Arizona, Cal, ASU

Teams that will be worse: OSU, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon

[jrj84105]

Utah matched up well against Stanford, and executed a good game plan. Unlike some other teams in the conference, the Cardinal doesn't spread you out and beat you with athleticism.

Exactly. KW runs his base scheme very well, and when a team like Furd plays into his base scheme the defense can be dominating. The issue is that CFB and especially the PAC conference has moved from these old-school power offenses into a generation of faster spread offenses. When KW is forced to move away from his base defense, we are TERRIBLE. Our zone coverage versus WSU looked about as bad as the two Florida O-linemen blocking each other. KW's defense is largely inherited from his dad, and KW hasn't shown a lot of indication that he has the ability to innovate or even really change much at all with respect to scheme. I'm worried that this may wind up being the single greatest limiting factor to our success in the PAC.

[SoCalPat]

You may be right, but I am still worried about Kyle treating positions on the Utah coaching staff as entry-level jobs. It just seems to me that before getting a job like that in a PAC-12 program a guy ought to have seen a year or two at College of Southern Idaho or SUU and proven himself there. I'm old-fashioned, I guess; I believe in learning a business by starting at the bottom and paying some dues.

Seeing as I live less than a mile from this fine institution of higher education, I can assure you we don't want a coach who has been here unless it's for basketball. CSI doesn't field a football team.

[LA Ute]

Seeing as I live less than a mile from this fine institution of higher education, I can assure you we don't want a coach who has been here unless it's for basketball. CSI doesn't field a football team.

Well, I was speaking figuratively. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/never-mind-smiley.gif

[DrumNFeather]

There was an interesting discussion on PTI yesterday regarding Nick Saban (KW is 1-0 against him :) ) and his time at Alabama and whether or not he'd go to Texas. One of the things that they talked about was how at some point, Saban who is on the verge of winning a third straight national title may be perceived as not doing enough to win. Michael Wilbon make an interesting point about the arrogance of college football fans and the expectations that coaches have these 10, 11, 12 win seasons every year and everything short of that becomes an epic failure.

The one thing that gives me some measure of faith in Whit is that the local beat guys are all giving up on him and going after his record etc, but the national guys are preaching patience...guys like Ted Miller etc. I think they recognize the challenges of making the conference change, and understand that Whit has been a good coach at Utah and can turn things around. Admittedly, I think there are some things he needs to work on with hiring, recruiting, and offense, but I agree with the national guys that he's still the guy that should be here.

[sancho]

The one thing that gives me some measure of faith in Whit is that the local beat guys are all giving up on him and going after his record etc, but the national guys are preaching patience...guys like Ted Miller etc. I think they recognize the challenges of making the conference change, and understand that Whit has been a good coach at Utah and can turn things around. Admittedly, I think there are some things he needs to work on with hiring, recruiting, and offense, but I agree with the national guys that he's still the guy that should be here.

There's a reason the local guys stayed local and the national guys made it big time.

[LA Ute]

ColoUte, who I wish would post here, put this up at Mr. Crimson's site. I rarely go there because it's just not my cup of tea, but these are good thoughts.

Entitled Utah Football Fans Can Kiss His.... (http://hoyosrevenge.com/2013/11/26/entitled-utah-football-fans-can-kiss-hairy-yellow-butt/)

Excerpt:



I blame Urban Meyer. Pre-Meyer, I hated getting on the web after Utah losses because of the BYU fans. Post Meyer, I hate getting on the web after Utah losses because of the Utah fans….or more specifically, the Utah fans who believe 2004 should be the norm.


So I had a guy tell me today that Utah should expect to be consistently 2nd or 3rd in the South, with a once every 4-5 year Rose Bowl run.

Can someone tell me why?


Why in the name of Pete are we freaking special? What is it about our program that we should just go ahead an inherently EXPECT to be better than UCLA, Arizona State, Arizona, etc.?


I’ve heard constantly the last 4 weeks, “Ute fans DESERVE better!”


Again, I ask why? What is it that we as Ute fans do to DESERVE more success than the fans of the other programs we’re playing?

...

[concerned]

ColoUte, who I wish would post here, put this up at Mr. Crimson's site. I rarely go there because it's just not my cup of tea, but these are good thoughts.

Entitled Utah Football Fans Can Kiss His.... (http://hoyosrevenge.com/2013/11/26/entitled-utah-football-fans-can-kiss-hairy-yellow-butt/)

Excerpt:

Looks like Mr. Crimson has taught ColoUte the fine art of knocking down straw men. No one has mastered that rhetorical device like Mr. Crimson, most recently and frequently in his diatribes against Larry K, and now ColoUte follows suit. Just how many Utah fans feel entitled? Just how many think we should go to the Rose Bowl every five years, if any? You can sound so wise and holier than everyone else when you can defeat these arguments with invective and too obvious sarcasm and attempts at humor.

[LA Ute]

Looks like Mr. Crimson has taught ColoUte the fine art of knocking down straw men. No one has mastered that rhetorical device like Mr. Crimson, most recently and frequently in his diatribes against Larry K, and now ColoUte follows suit. Just how many Utah fans feel entitled? Just how many think we should go to the Rose Bowl every five years, if any? You can sound so wise and holier than everyone else when you can defeat these arguments with invective and too obvious sarcasm and attempts at humor.

I think when one spends a lot of time on fan message boards, one runs into fans with extreme views. (Just a hunch on my part.) The trouble, as you say, comes when one devotes a lot of time and energy responding to those folks -- like the "entitled" Utah fans, most of whom probably started following Utah football in about 2003. Anyway, his response to those people is pretty good. Like you, however, I don't think many of them exist.

[Two Utes]

Looks like Mr. Crimson has taught ColoUte the fine art of knocking down straw men. No one has mastered that rhetorical device like Mr. Crimson, most recently and frequently in his diatribes against Larry K, and now ColoUte follows suit. Just how many Utah fans feel entitled? Just how many think we should go to the Rose Bowl every five years, if any? You can sound so wise and holier than everyone else when you can defeat these arguments with invective and too obvious sarcasm and attempts at humor.

I hear a lot of people talking about firing Whit. To me it makes no sense. Colo Ute is dead on and there are in fact a ton of Ute fans who think wwe deserve better. I'm surprised you haven't heard this.

[concerned]

I hear a lot of people talking about firing Whit. To me it makes no sense. Colo Ute is dead on and there are in fact a ton of Ute fans who think wwe deserve better. I'm surprised you haven't heard this.

I havent at all.

[LA Ute]

I hear a lot of people talking about firing Whit. To me it makes no sense. Colo Ute is dead on and there are in fact a ton of Ute fans who think wwe deserve better. I'm surprised you haven't heard this.

Since I am not in Utah I don't hear this. All I know about fan opinion is what I see on message boards, and those are not very representative of anything. But with PAC-12 records of 4-5, 3-6, and 2-8 (we hope) I am not surprised that the subject of firing Whit has come up.

[Two Utes]

Since I am not in Utah I don't hear this. All I know about fan opinion is what I see on message boards, and those are not very representative of anything. But with PAC-12 records of 4-5, 3-6, and 2-8 (we hope) I am not surprised that the subject of firing Whit has come up.

And to the other point in your post, the challenge with many posters on boards like these is they have made up their minds on certain topics and every post is designed to support the position they've made. Instead of having dialogue and real consideration of arguments,we end up fighting about respective positions on issues where conclusions have already been made.

Crimson is the worst at this. Anybody who invites that cancer into their life in any way, deserves his vitriol and the corresponding waste of time.

[LA Ute]

And to the other point in your post, the challenge with many posters on boards like these is they have made up their minds on certain topics and every post is designed to support the position they've made. Instead of having dialogue and real consideration of arguments,we end up fighting about respective positions on issues where conclusions have already been made.

Crimson is the worst at this. Anybody who invites that cancer into their life in any way, deserves his vitriol and the corresponding waste of time.

He has dropped by here but didn't stay. This place is not a good one for taking strident positions and beating up on people.

As for my own views about Whit, I am firmly in the camp of "I don't know what to think."

[UTEopia]

I wish ColoUte would post more. He was one of the original great posters on Utefans and I always get a kick out of his posts.

[LA Ute]

I wish ColoUte would post more. He was one of the original great posters on Utefans and I always get a kick out of his posts.

He has a brother who posts here. So far our efforts to recruit him have failed.

[justaute]

That's why, so far, I like this place. In my experience, I find many sports message-board members have the predilection to post biased, parochially subjective, and vile messages. I'm a believer of this "you can't teach common sense and you can't fix stupid".

We all have opinions. Some people, as LAU said, become strident when others don't subscribe to or agree with their perspective.


He has dropped by here but didn't stay. This place is not a good one for taking strident positions and beating up on people.

As for my own views about Whit, I am firmly in the camp of "I don't know what to think."

[Diehard Ute]

He has a brother who posts here. So far our efforts to recruit him have failed.

I see him at basketball games. I'll talk to him tonight.

[SoCalPat]

Looks like Mr. Crimson has taught ColoUte the fine art of knocking down straw men. No one has mastered that rhetorical device like Mr. Crimson, most recently and frequently in his diatribes against Larry K, and now ColoUte follows suit. Just how many Utah fans feel entitled? Just how many think we should go to the Rose Bowl every five years, if any? You can sound so wise and holier than everyone else when you can defeat these arguments with invective and too obvious sarcasm and attempts at humor.

A lot. Not a majority, but enough to be heard.

Go back on various message boards and read what we've had to say about Arizona State over the years, especially since we joined the league. We sound like USC, minus one very important aspect: a legitimate track record of excellence. I would kill for our first 30 years in the Pac-12 to match ASU's.

[crazyute]

Exactly. KW runs his base scheme very well, and when a team like Furd plays into his base scheme the defense can be dominating. The issue is that CFB and especially the PAC conference has moved from these old-school power offenses into a generation of faster spread offenses. When KW is forced to move away from his base defense, we are TERRIBLE. Our zone coverage versus WSU looked about as bad as the two Florida O-linemen blocking each other. KW's defense is largely inherited from his dad, and KW hasn't shown a lot of indication that he has the ability to innovate or even really change much at all with respect to scheme. I'm worried that this may wind up being the single greatest limiting factor to our success in the PAC.
Then I ask again. why didn't it work against oregon st. or USC? both run traditional offenses not the spread that we struggle with. yet we struggled mightily with both these offenses?

[crazyute]

And to the other point in your post, the challenge with many posters on boards like these is they have made up their minds on certain topics and every post is designed to support the position they've made. Instead of having dialogue and real consideration of arguments,we end up fighting about respective positions on issues where conclusions have already been made.

Crimson is the worst at this. Anybody who invites that cancer into their life in any way, deserves his vitriol and the corresponding waste of time.

man you just nailed utefans. that site has become terrible. there is no talk of openmindedness there at all. having different views and thoughts there seem to be met with attacking by a group. and they go hard. I have watched some be ridiculed to no end there.

[cald22well]

Then I ask again. why didn't it work against oregon st. or USC? both run traditional offenses not the spread that we struggle with. yet we struggled mightily with both these offenses?

Stanford scored 21 on us, USC scored 19. I would say that the defense was on its game in both of those games. It was the offense that failed to show up against USC.

As for Oregon State, I would argue that the Utes didn't play their base defense. Much like the game against WSU, they played a lot of zone. And Oregon State simply made the plays.

[GarthUte]

He has a brother who posts here. So far our efforts to recruit him have failed.

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, it's a brother-in-law. Just picking some nits. :)

[crazyute]

Stanford scored 21 on us, USC scored 19. I would say that the defense was on its game in both of those games. It was the offense that failed to show up against USC.

As for Oregon State, I would argue that the Utes didn't play their base defense. Much like the game against WSU, they played a lot of zone. And Oregon State simply made the plays.
I can live with that.

my only thought is that we were wildly inconsistant as a program from the coaches down to the players.

[LA Ute]

I see him at basketball games. I'll talk to him tonight.

Hey, I'll be at the game too. Section N, Row 17, seats 5,6,7,8. Come see me as long as you don't throw anything.


If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, it's a brother-in-law. Just picking some nits. http://www.utahby5.com/images/smilies/smile.png

Family is family.

[Diehard Ute]

Hey, I'll be at the game too. Section N, Row 17, seats 5,6,7,8. Come see me as long as you don't throw anything.



Family is family.

I'll try. The last game the ushers were blocking the aisles and checking tickets.

I emailed Dr Hill about this, he wants to talk by phone but we haven't been able to connect yet.

[cald22well]

I can live with that.

my only thought is that we were wildly inconsistant as a program from the coaches down to the players.


I completely agree. And that is exactly why this season was so frustrating. I know that the Pac-12 is the elite conference for offenses, but it bothers me that we change our defense so often. I understand tweaks and gameplanning are necessary for every opponent, but it seemed like we had a different base defense for every variation of offense. It especially bothered me against OSU and WSU. No matter the coverage, good QBs are going to make plays if you give them time to throw. We had an amazing D-Line, I don't understand the logic not to put pressure on the QB.

[Diehard Ute]

Article from the D News about Erickson's desire to return next season

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865591451/Utah-Utes-football-Erickson-eager-to-return.html

[concerned]

I can live with that.

my only thought is that we were wildly inconsistent as a program from the coaches down to the players.

plus not having Ophrey really hurt us against WSU. Honeycutt was just too slow to cover their 3rd option. And Jason Wittingham got exposed too in coverage.

[crazyute]

plus not having Ophrey really hurt us against WSU. Honeycutt was just too slow to cover their 3rd option. And Jason Wittingham got exposed too in coverage.
I've wondered if wittingham will be the replacement for reilly next year? with both jionni paul and brian blechen coming back we seem to have plenty of LB's. especially with hale and norris too.
wittingham is a very explosive athlete, but more explosive in short areas. so an edge rusher might be his ticket.

[sancho]

Last night I had a Thanksgiving vision:

In an alternate future, our beloved coach Kyle Whittingham is fired. We go on to have 4 coaching searches over the next 15 years (3 due to failure, 1 due to a coach having modest success and leaving to coach at UCLA). BYU makes the obvious move of hiring Kyle, and he pounds us over the course of 20 years into a darker age than has ever been experienced by Utah fans. We become tortured monsters, coming to loathe the man who brought us the greatest moments in our history.

A parallel future has Kyle retiring from the U in 15 years at age 69. In that time, he has led us to three south division titles and one Rose Bowl victory. We have regularly fielded one of the more feared defenses in the Pac-12. A statue of our beloved coach is erected at Kyle Whittingham Field in the newly expanded south end zone. Hundreds of former players attend the retirement game. Dozens of others send well wishes from their NFL teams. The ovation lasts for 10 straight minutes. Most of the fans shed tears of gratitude.

Happy Thanksgiving Ute fans: among many things, I am grateful for our team, our beautiful stadium, our dedicated players, and our beloved coach. Have a great day today wherever you are! Go Utes!

[Jarid in Cedar]

I'll take option 2 for $1000, Alex.

Happy thanksgiving to you as well, Sancho.

[UTEopia]

I completely agree. And that is exactly why this season was so frustrating. I know that the Pac-12 is the elite conference for offenses, but it bothers me that we change our defense so often. I understand tweaks and gameplanning are necessary for every opponent, but it seemed like we had a different base defense for every variation of offense. It especially bothered me against OSU and WSU. No matter the coverage, good QBs are going to make plays if you give them time to throw. We had an amazing D-Line, I don't understand the logic not to put pressure on the QB.

I don't think there was a goal to not put pressure on the QB in either game. It really doesn't matter if the Utes line up with 4 down linemen or 3, they almost always bring at least 4 pass rushers and when they have 3 down linemen it makes it easier to bring 5 on a regular basis. What I saw in both games is that the Utes were unable to get pressure with 4 guys and the QB's picked them apart. On multiple occasions they blitzed and were unable to create much additional pressure and at the same time put their back end in a more difficult situation. IMO, Utah has never been a very dynamic pass rushing team when rushing only 4. The only exception was when Kruger and Misi played together. Utah has made money rushing the passer through well designed blitzes and tough man coverage on the outside. The jump to the PAC has made tough man coverage much more difficult and as a result blitzing is more risky and less successful.

[crazyute]

I don't think there was a goal to not put pressure on the QB in either game. It really doesn't matter if the Utes line up with 4 down linemen or 3, they almost always bring at least 4 pass rushers and when they have 3 down linemen it makes it easier to bring 5 on a regular basis. What I saw in both games is that the Utes were unable to get pressure with 4 guys and the QB's picked them apart. On multiple occasions they blitzed and were unable to create much additional pressure and at the same time put their back end in a more difficult situation. IMO, Utah has never been a very dynamic pass rushing team when rushing only 4. The only exception was when Kruger and Misi played together. Utah has made money rushing the passer through well designed blitzes and tough man coverage on the outside. The jump to the PAC has made tough man coverage much more difficult and as a result blitzing is more risky and less successful.
we should be able to get pressure with both reilly and orchard coming off the edge. however too often one of these two seems to be in pass coverage.

[LA Ute]

Good: (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865591611/Utah-football-Ute-coach-Kyle-Whittingham-AD-Chris-Hill-on-the-same-page.html?pg=2)


“We’ve got to get better and I’ll evaluate everything starting tomorrow. It begins right away,” Whittingham said. “And anything that we can do to make us better will be done. But I don’t have anything to give you right now in that regard, other than it’s obvious that we have to improve at a lot of things and in a lot of areas.”

Whittingham added that he’ll take a long, hard look at it.

[gugstanley]

Good: (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865591611/Utah-football-Ute-coach-Kyle-Whittingham-AD-Chris-Hill-on-the-same-page.html?pg=2)We’ve got to get better and I’ll evaluate everything starting tomorrow. It begins right away,” Whittingham said. “And anything that we can do to make us better will be done. But I don’t have anything to give you right now in that regard, other than it’s obvious that we have to improve at a lot of things and in a lot of areas.”

Whittingham added that he’ll take a long, hard look at it.

Same thing we heard after last season. Whittingham must have himself on repeat.

[USS Utah]

Same thing we heard after last season. Whittingham must have himself on repeat.

And last year he hired Dennis Erickson.

[LA Ute]

Same thing we heard after last season. Whittingham must have himself on repeat.

As my posts here show, I'm disappointed too. But under the circumstances (talent upgrade, injuries, etc.) KW deserves a year or two to see if he can change the program's trajectory.

[Brian]

Any chance that Tim Davis would come back?

[LA Ute]

Any chance that Tim Davis would come back?

Someone, somewhere, said yesterday that Davis is more of a pro-style OL coach and not really a spread guy, and the blocking styles are different. FWIW. I really know nothing more than that.

[UTEopia]

is it possible to close down this thread and direct everything to the end of season thread?

[LA Ute]

is it possible to close down this thread and direct everything to the end of season thread?

Yes. We will do it.

[crazyute]

As my posts here show, I'm disappointed too. But under the circumstances (talent upgrade, injuries, etc.) KW deserves a year or two to see if he can change the program's trajectory.
i think he has next year. and I don't think it is neccessarily about wins and losses, but more about improvement across the board. Can kyle progress himself. can he show a killer instinct if we get a second half lead. will he allow erickson to set up the offense? will we get 2 or 3 scholarshiped QB's developed? Will he show the ability to incorporate a zone scheme into his defense?

next year is going to be tough with the schedule. but I want to see us compete. and not get embarrassed. show competancy on offense.

[sancho]

next year is going to be tough with the schedule. but I want to see us compete. and not get embarrassed. show competancy on offense.

We already did "compete and not get embarrassed." Next year I want to win.

[Hadrian]

I think Whit is a great coach and it would be a shame to lose him. He runs a clean program (presumably) and he knows how to deal with the culture in Utah (missions and such). That said, I think the rest of the staff needs to be reworked. Make Erickson the outright OC and give him whatever he wants on offense, including some control over who is coaching under him. Finn will end up being a sacrificial lamb, so bring in someone with a strong resume to replace him. On defense, Whit needs to take the reigns and make some coaching changes if necessary. I think Shaw will be replaced regardless. I think the staff in general needs to diversify; travel around in the offseason and talk to coaches and broaden their horizons a little bit.

I also think one of the new coaches needs to be a motivator. Gary Andersen is so successful partially because he has an uncanny ability to motivate his players while still maintaining discipline. I suspect Urban Meyer is this way too. Their teams never come out flat; they're always ready to play their hardest. We've been really inconsistent in that aspect as of late: we seem to play hardest only when there's an easy motivation to do so (e.g. "we're the underdogs").

As far as the team's prospects for next year, I think we have a ton of potential. The linebacker situation should improve with Gionni Paul and Blechen getting in the mix, among others. The corners have a lot more experience. The D-line will reload. Scott and Dres will lead a deeper WR corps. I'm assuming Murphy and Tonga will be back. The OL should have plenty of bodies. There will be more QB depth, although having Wilson back at 100% would be the best possible scenario.

[UTEopia]

If KW is going to make changes to the staff, I hope he makes them sooner rather than later. Just with players, either he believes a guy can get the job done or he doesn't. It really doesn't matter who else is out there or who else you can get. If you don't trust the guy you have to get it done, have some balls and fire him. The only excuse i can think of for not doing so is giving the guy a week or so to get another job.

[UtahDan]

LA we can merge them......

[LA Ute]

LA we can merge them......

Brain cramp. I'll do that.

[UtahDan]

Or I can if you don't remember how.

[LA Ute]

We are merging the former "2013 mid-season where do we go from here?" thread into "The 2013 Season Review Thread."

[concerned]

We are merging the former "2013 mid-season where do we go from here?" thread into "The 2013 Season Review Thread."


Its about time. I was getting annoyed clicking on these two threads thinking there was some new insight or impt info only to discover it is you two continuing to discuss how or whether to merge them.

[DrumNFeather]

We already did "compete and not get embarrassed." Next year I want to win.

The Pac 12 network is constantly running the clip of Graham at ASU in the lockerroom saying: "I don't care about making a good showing, I care about winning." We need a little more of that in 2014.

[sancho]

The Pac 12 network is constantly running the clip of Graham at ASU in the lockerroom saying: "I don't care about making a good showing, I care about winning." We need a little more of that in 2014.

I hate him so much.

In addition to "recruiting specialist", let's bring in a motivational speaker coach.

[U-Ute]

I hate him so much.

In addition to "recruiting specialist", let's bring in a motivational speaker coach.

Maybe Orgeron? The guy has connections and players love him.

[Devildog]

We already did "compete and not get embarrassed." Next year I want to win.

Well... I'm embarrassed.

5-7 Sucks... again. Hell, the conference record is even worse than last year, and we lost to Washington State.

Recruiting will be more difficult with a successive weak-ass record like ours.

We haven't sucked this bad (except maybe last year) for a decade and since firing McBride.

Close losses? Close wins. The only team we destroyed was Weber (and what the Hell is that worth).

[Devildog]

We as fans are as wide-eyed, awestruck, and country bumpkin as the damn team. Comments such as "the Pac 12 is so good this year" are killing me.

Who the fawk did we think we were here to play?

This is the damn league, we've been here for a few years now... these are the guys you're expected to beat. Yeah..how bout that, No shit.

Washington State? We can't lose to Washington State.

We could start by winning consistently in our own damn house.

:TrainWreck1:

Taking that sold out loud ass stadium for granted is a mistake. Winning breeds winners...the inverse is also true.

[LA Ute]

Well... I'm embarrassed.

5-7 Sucks... again. Hell, the conference record is even worse than last year, and we lost to Washington State.

Recruiting will be more difficult with a successive weak-ass record like ours.

We haven't sucked this bad (except maybe last year) for a decade and since firing McBride.

Close losses? Close wins. The only team we destroyed was Weber (and what the Hell is that worth).

The painful truth is in our PAC-12 record since joining:

2011: 4-5
2012: 3-6
2013: 2-7

In my world, I can't lose 7 of 9 cases and get away with saying, "Well, we came close each time." Or, in sales, you can't say, "Hey! I made sales to 2 of 9 customers, but pay me anyway because I almost got some of those 7 sales I lost." I'm not being Gloomy Gus, just reminding everyone how bad our conference record really is. It's terrible. I do think things will turn around, but there is a lot of turning around to do.

[SoCalPat]

The painful truth is in our PAC-12 record since joining:

2011: 4-5
2012: 3-6
2013: 2-7

In my world, I can't lose 7 of 9 cases and get away with saying, "Well, we came close each time." Or, in sales, you can't say, "Hey! I made sales to 2 of 9 customers, but pay me anyway because I almost got some of those 7 sales I lost." I'm not being Gloomy Gus, just reminding everyone how bad our conference record really is. It's terrible. I do think things will turn around, but there is a lot of turning around to do.

There's far more substance to our 2-7 mark this year than our 3-6 mark last year.

I want to win as much as the next guy, and I've hammered people for suggesting in other sports that close losses were a sign of improvement, but the reality is the loss column was the only negative stat increase this year. We finally beat a team with a winning record, one that might represent our league in the Rose Bowl. We had three losses by a TD or less -- one of those losses, again, coming to a team that might represent our league in the Rose Bowl.

When the schedule is more favorable, the QB is healthy and productive and we have better luck than most along the injury front ... and we still go 5-7? Call for Kyle's head all you want. I hate to be that guy preaching patience, because I've hated that guy for years, but we are really close to being a threat in this league. What Auburn and Missouri are this year, we could be that team next year. Have faith! (I've hated the "Have Faith" guy for years, too)

[Diehard Ute]

Reality is much of our fan base thought too highly of our teams in the MWC and thus don't deal well with the seasons we've had.

And it's silly to ignore how improved the entire conference is. Now some choose to say that's an excuse, I just see it as being realistic. We entered a rough league that's become significantly tougher since we joined.

I also think we as fans were a bit naive in not realizing the disadvantage the graduated money schedule put us in.

Yes we've now been here 3 years...but we're still not "full" members.

The first year we played in the PAC with a MWC income.

The next two years are going to be telling...it's do or die time.

(And it's sports...as a fan I'll never be embarrassed, this is entertainment, it doesn't reflect on me)

[sancho]

The painful truth is in our PAC-12 record since joining:

2011: 4-5
2012: 3-6
2013: 2-7

In my world, I can't lose 7 of 9 cases and get away with saying, "Well, we came close each time." Or, in sales, you can't say, "Hey! I made sales to 2 of 9 customers, but pay me anyway because I almost got some of those 7 sales I lost." I'm not being Gloomy Gus, just reminding everyone how bad our conference record really is. It's terrible. I do think things will turn around, but there is a lot of turning around to do.

I think we'll know in the next 1-2 years whether the turning around will occur. If things go so poorly for the next two years that we are forced to fire one of the most successful coaches we've ever had, we will basically cement our status as another ISU, Minnesota, Arizona, Ole Miss, Vandy, NCState, etc. Nobody cares or thinks about those programs. If, however, a turnaround occurs in the next 1-2 seasons, people will say "see, they just needed to get their bearings in the new conference."

[LA Ute]

There's far more substance to our 2-7 mark this year than our 3-6 mark last year.

I want to win as much as the next guy, and I've hammered people for suggesting in other sports that close losses were a sign of improvement, but the reality is the loss column was the only negative stat increase this year. We finally beat a team with a winning record, one that might represent our league in the Rose Bowl. We had three losses by a TD or less -- one of those losses, again, coming to a team that might represent our league in the Rose Bowl.

When the schedule is more favorable, the QB is healthy and productive and we have better luck than most along the injury front ... and we still go 5-7? Call for Kyle's head all you want. I hate to be that guy preaching patience, because I've hated that guy for years, but we are really close to being a threat in this league. What Auburn and Missouri are this year, we could be that team next year. Have faith! (I've hated the "Have Faith" guy for years, too)

I agree with everything you say. I am mainly reminding myself that our results are terrible, and at the end of the day that's how success in college football is measured.

[sancho]

This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but we don't have a thread dedicated to my disdain of all things Stanford. Since this thread is currently the most active, I'm gonna put it here.

My brother had a good suggestion over Thanksgiving regarding Stanford. We should convince the entire world - all fans, all journalists, all opposing coaches - to refer to Stanford as the Cardinals. How long do you think Stanford could go on correcting the world -- "Excuse me, it's Cardinal. No "s". Like the color." -- before they finally just accept it? I think they could go for years, and I would enjoy watching it play out.

[concerned]

There will be a lot of rebuilding in the conference next year. Stanford has something like 19 seniors in its two deep. Hundley, Manning and probably Holiday will turn pro early; Wash, USC, and maybe UCLA will have new coaches. We will see what the new year brings. It is true that if our place becomes set in stone, the only way to break the mold and reenergize recruiting is to bring in a new staff and make the recruits believe it is a new ballgame.

[SoCalPat]

This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but we don't have a thread dedicated to my disdain of all things Stanford. Since this thread is currently the most active, I'm gonna put it here.

My brother had a good suggestion over Thanksgiving regarding Stanford. We should convince the entire world - all fans, all journalists, all opposing coaches - to refer to Stanford as the Cardinals. How long do you think Stanford could go on correcting the world -- "Excuse me, it's Cardinal. No "s". Like the color." -- before they finally just accept it? I think they could go for years, and I would enjoy watching it play out.

On a related note ...

http://displacedtrojan.blogspot.com/2006/08/tell-me-usc-is-southern-cal.html

[sancho]

It is true that if our place becomes set in stone, the only way to break the mold and reenergize recruiting is to bring in a new staff and make the recruits believe it is a new ballgame.

I believe this as well, but let's hope it doesn't come to that. That approach has a very low success rate for teams in our demographic.

[Devildog]

Reality is much of our fan base thought too highly of our teams in the MWC and thus don't deal well with the seasons we've had.

And it's silly to ignore how improved the entire conference is. Now some choose to say that's an excuse, I just see it as being realistic. We entered a rough league that's become significantly tougher since we joined.

(And it's sports...as a fan I'll never be embarrassed, this is entertainment, it doesn't reflect on me)

I think it's silly to keep repeating how good the conference is.

How many times have we heard this from Kyle? What do the players think when the coach keeps telling the media how good the conference is?

I'm sick of justifying the losing.

[Diehard Ute]

I think it's silly to keep repeating how good the conference is.

How many times have we heard this from Kyle? What do the players think when the coach keeps telling the media how good the conference is?
I'm sick of justifying the losing.

And it's silly to keep wanting to pretend that the quality of opposition doesn't matter.

Your posts reek of someone who longs for the glory days of the MWC which boggles me.

[concerned]

And it's silly to keep wanting to pretend that the quality of opposition doesn't matter.

Your posts reek of someone who longs for the glory days of the MWC which boggles me.

Well damn. Mariota is coming back.

[U-Ute]

This probably doesn't belong in this thread, but we don't have a thread dedicated to my disdain of all things Stanford. Since this thread is currently the most active, I'm gonna put it here.

My brother had a good suggestion over Thanksgiving regarding Stanford. We should convince the entire world - all fans, all journalists, all opposing coaches - to refer to Stanford as the Cardinals. How long do you think Stanford could go on correcting the world -- "Excuse me, it's Cardinal. No "s". Like the color." -- before they finally just accept it? I think they could go for years, and I would enjoy watching it play out.

In my circle, we've been calling them Leland or Junior University.

[LA Ute]

I think it's silly to keep repeating how good the conference is.

How many times have we heard this from Kyle? What do the players think when the coach keeps telling the media how good the conference is?

I'm sick of justifying the losing.

I would rather hear Kyle say, "We're just not good enough yet. We're getting better as quickly as we can." That's true, and it is not an excuse.

[UBlender]

I would rather hear Kyle say, "We're just not good enough yet. We're getting better as quickly as we can." That's true, and it is not an excuse.

I believe he did essentially say this after the CU game. He said we need to get a lot better and he would evaluate everything (players, coaches, processes) to determine how we could do that. So what if he also acknowledges a factual piece of context (that Utah played the #1 toughest SOS this year)? It's a fact and it may not make everyone feel better, but it matters. There are many of us of the opinion that Utah 2013 was better than Utah 2012 by being closer against a tougher schedule. If you're looking for year over year improvement I think the program took a step forward in 2013 even though it didn't manifest itself in the record. Obviously, there is a very limited amount of time that the program can lean on improvement that doesn't move the W/L column.

[UBlender]

In my world, I can't lose 7 of 9 cases and get away with saying, "Well, we came close each time." Or, in sales, you can't say, "Hey! I made sales to 2 of 9 customers, but pay me anyway because I almost got some of those 7 sales I lost." I'm not being Gloomy Gus, just reminding everyone how bad our conference record really is. It's terrible. I do think things will turn around, but there is a lot of turning around to do.

Pet peeve time. I HATE this line of thinking. I've never followed any logic that compares coaching a major team to any job of the real world. It's just not the same at all. (And in many industries, closing a sale with 2/9 potential customers would be considered a huge success...again, it just doesn't translate like that).

[Diehard Ute]

Pet peeve time. I HATE this line of thinking. I've never followed any logic that compares coaching a major team to any job of the real world. It's just not the same at all. (And in many industries, closing a sale with 2/9 potential customers would be considered a huge success...again, it just doesn't translate like that).

Amen.

While as fans we certainly can and will want a better team with more wins, we all get too caught up in knowing what should happen....even if we don't know much of anything about what goes on outside the lines of the field on Saturday.

[LA Ute]

I believe he did essentially say this after the CU game. He said we need to get a lot better and he would evaluate everything (players, coaches, processes) to determine how we could do that. So what if he also acknowledges a factual piece of context (that Utah played the #1 toughest SOS this year)? It's a fact and it may not make everyone feel better, but it matters. There are many of us of the opinion that Utah 2013 was better than Utah 2012 by being closer against a tougher schedule. If you're looking for year over year improvement I think the program took a step forward in 2013 even though it didn't manifest itself in the record. Obviously, there is a very limited amount of time that the program can lean on improvement that doesn't move the W/L column.

Don't get me wrong. I am no Kyle-basher; far from it. I think you are right on with your bolded comment. All I am saying is this (and I am saying it to myself as much as to anyone else): The nuances are lost on most observers, including especially recruits. They see mainly wins and losses and there's an urgent need to turn that around. Kyle knows that, and I am sure he'll knock himself out trying to get that done.


Pet peeve time. I HATE this line of thinking. I've never followed any logic that compares coaching a major team to any job of the real world. It's just not the same at all. (And in many industries, closing a sale with 2/9 potential customers would be considered a huge success...again, it just doesn't translate like that).

Fair enough. I know sports and business are not perfectly comparable, but results matter in both.

[Diehard Ute]

Don't get me wrong. I am no Kyle-basher; far from it. I think you are right on with your bolded comment. All I am saying is this (and I am saying it to myself as much as to anyone else): The nuances are lost on most observers, including especially recruits. They see mainly wins and losses and there's an urgent need to turn that around. Kyle knows that, and I am sure he'll knock himself out trying to get that done.

If that were true about recruits we'd have seen much bigger windfalls after 2004 and 2008. It's obvious in 2013 recruits care about a lot of things beyond who wins more, many of them things that seem odd or trivial to us as fans.

Don't get me wrong, winning is what sports is about, but we also do a disservice if we believe the only mark of the state of the program is the win loss record. We need to win, but we can't look at the team each December or January and say the number of wins or losses tells is where we are. That's too simplistic.





Fair enough. I know sports and business are not perfectly comparable, but results matter in both.

Yes results matter, but in the context of what is expected and attainable. Often we as fans are way off the mark on both

[LA Ute]

If that were true about recruits we'd have seen much bigger windfalls after 2004 and 2008. It's obvious in 2013 recruits care about a lot of things beyond who wins more, many of them things that seem odd or trivial to us as fans.

I don't think the comparison is apt. We were in the MWC then. Now we are trying to establish our position in a new food chain. We are now in the bottom three of the conference, at least in terms of our trajectory, and falling. At the same time, we are going after an entirely different class of athlete, and those recruits are looking at the entire conference. Again, I'm just talking about perception. If we are seen as the new kid on the block who hasn't yet made the grade, the next Washington State, yada yada, then we've hurt ourselves.

So please don't get me wrong, I am not saying the sky is falling at all. I'm just arguing for a realistic assessment of our situation.


Don't get me wrong, winning is what sports is about, but we also do a disservice if we believe the only mark of the state of the program is the win loss record. We need to win, but we can't look at the team each December or January and say the number of wins or losses tells is where we are. That's too simplistic.

Yes results matter, but in the context of what is expected and attainable. Often we as fans are way off the mark on both

I'll stand by my response above.

[sancho]

Well damn. Mariota is coming back.

Rats. Now Mora is staying at UCLA. Bet Hundley stays too.

So UW is down to Wilcox, Peterson, or Pinkel?

[sancho]

Your posts reek of someone who longs for the glory days of the MWC which boggles me.

There's nothing wrong with some MWC nostalgia. Those were glory days that will probably never return. We will never get to the BCS buster again. Of course, even teams currently in the MWC long for the glory days of that conference. Those days are gone forever. I'm glad we were able to get out before the ship started sinking.

[Devildog]

I'm not trying to bash Kyle either. I've said multiple times that he deserves another year (based on his past performance).

However, he should be accountable for his performance like everybody else. Yes, this conference is good... that isn't going to change... what does need to change is our record.

Uphill fight? Yep... so lets get to it and stop whining about why we aren't successful. Results count and everybody knows it.

The last couple years we have been circling the drain. I don't want Utah to end up as the new Washington State.

There is no way our stadium environment continues to endure one losing season after another. Progress is required next year.

No more excuses, hell... we are not even a mediocre Pac 12 team, we are bad.

Damn right, I've enjoyed our past success. I've sat there as Alex Smith marched the Utes down the field, as Max Hall threw all those picks, as we came back to beat TCU, and through the transition to the PAC. I've paid the big increases in Crimson Club and season ticket prices. Watching as we lose home game after home game sucks, and I'm not the only one that feels like this. I don't expect to win the Rose Bowl... but damn, the emperor is stripping folks. It's getting to be put up or shut up time.

[Devildog]

Your posts reek of someone who longs for the glory days of the MWC which boggles me.

We may not see it the same way... but we are still on the same side man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSLAIKjT7y8

[USS Utah]

Uphill fight? Yep... so lets get to it and stop whining about why we aren't successful. Results count and everybody knows it.

I haven't heard any whining from Kyle, or anyone else that can "get to it".

[Devildog]

I haven't heard any whining from Kyle, or anyone else that can "get to it".

By "get to it"... I meant winning and making our way in this conference... you know, like actually beating the competition in football games.

[USS Utah]

By "get to it"... I meant winning and making our way in this conference... you know, like actually beating the competition in football games.

I was pretty sure that's what you meant.

As I am sure you are aware, the enemy gets a vote. The other teams are working toward the same end.