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View Full Version : The plight of going to a Walmart in SLC



scottie
11-26-2013, 09:40 AM
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692&nid=148&title=business-of-begging-the-real-stories-behind-utah-panhandling&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

The first comment in the Comments section:


I donate to my church and that's it. While I know there are some legitimate homeless people who have fallen on hard times, there are resources available to them. What I truly hate are the couples who make their kids hold the signs (I see that at the Smith's in Lehi all the time) and the couples who stand out there with their babies or sit in camping chairs while panhandling. It's pretty obvious they are not living on the streets. I used to live in downtown salt lake, and the panhandlers there were so aggressive it was frightening. I stopped going to the wal mart on 1300 south because i couldn't go from my car to the front door without at least two or three people asking me for "gas money" or "bus fare."


I'm not a fan of KSL running that story. Hopefully it doesn't discourage anyone in SLC from donating time or money to places like Rescue Mission of SL. I have donated both time and money and the times I've been there have been the most humbling of my life.

Diehard Ute
11-26-2013, 11:44 AM
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27782692&nid=148&title=business-of-begging-the-real-stories-behind-utah-panhandling&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

The first comment in the Comments section:



I'm not a fan of KSL running that story. Hopefully it doesn't discourage anyone in SLC from donating time or money to places like Rescue Mission of SL. I have donated both time and money and the times I've been there have been the most humbling of my life.

You should be a huge fan of that story. People are giving thousands upon thousands of dollars to panhandlers directly, which keeps it from legitimate places such as the rescue mission.

I deal with legitimate homeless people and panhandlers at work. Trust me, this KSL story is spot on.

Do NOT give money to panhandlers. It doesn't help anyone.

UtahDan
12-02-2013, 02:08 PM
You should be a huge fan of that story. People are giving thousands upon thousands of dollars to panhandlers directly, which keeps it from legitimate places such as the rescue mission.

I deal with legitimate homeless people and panhandlers at work. Trust me, this KSL story is spot on.

Do NOT give money to panhandlers. It doesn't help anyone.

My issue is it tells people that most people who are on hard times are liars and criminals. Is the real danger, as the article suggests, that people get a false sense that they are helping the needy by shelling out a few bucks? I think that this article does is reassure people that they can ignore those in need because they have done it to themselves, and then the comforting thought most of them retreat to is that the contributions they make to their church help the poor. I agree, if you really want to help people in need in your community, contribute money directly to organizations that are visibly doing exactly that right where you live. Homeless shelters, food pantries, literacy programs, etc. They are not hard to find.

Diehard Ute
12-02-2013, 02:13 PM
My issue is it tells people that most people who are on hard times are liars and criminals. Is the real danger, as the article suggests, that people get a false sense that they are helping the needy by shelling out a few bucks? I think that this article does is reassure people that they can ignore those in need because they have done it to themselves, and then the comforting thought most of them retreat to is that the contributions they make to their church help the poor. I agree, if you really want to help people in need in your community, contribute money directly to organizations that are visibly doing exactly that right where you live. Homeless shelters, food pantries, literacy programs, etc. They are not hard to find.

I would say it tells you those who are having hard times are not standing outside panhandling so those are not the people who need you money.

Reality is most of the people you see living on the streets have chosen to ignore the help available to them for whatever reason.

The people I think most "donors" what to help are in the shelter or other programs, and aren't seen by the public.

It's unfortunate that we as a society love the easy buck and have people who will lie chest and steal to get it.

And honestly, even those who truly do need help, don't need a handout. Sadly that rarely helps them, instead it just makes it another day they can feed their addictions.

UtahDan
12-02-2013, 02:49 PM
I would say it tells you those who are having hard times are not standing outside panhandling so those are not the people who need you money.

I don't agree with that. But I do agree that giving it to them directly is not the best way to help them. But again, I don't think most folks along the Wasatch front are doing anything to help the poor, so I'm more concerned about reinforcing they idea that that they don't need to do anything than I am concerned that they get grifted out of their pocket change.


Reality is most of the people you see living on the streets have chosen to ignore the help available to them for whatever reason.

Mental illness is the reason, I don't think there is much mystery there. But there are plenty of people who are not living under a bridge, families in many cases, who aren't having basic needs met. I don't think it matters much WHY that is the case (didn't to Jesus or King Benjamin), but there is this massive fairness component to the morality of most modern conservatives (I REALLY need to start a thread on Haidt's ideas about morality) which prioritizes not wanting someone to get something for nothing over wanting to alleviate suffering. And I think that article just panders to that impulse and reinforces a very skewed view of whether it is important for people to try to help.


The people I think most "donors" what to help are in the shelter or other programs, and aren't seen by the public.

It's unfortunate that we as a society love the easy buck and have people who will lie chest and steal to get it.

And honestly, even those who truly do need help, don't need a handout. Sadly that rarely helps them, instead it just makes it another day they can feed their addictions.

Again, I think people preying on the good will of others is the mote and the failure to adequately address poverty is the beam. This article does nothing to help that.

FountainOfUte
12-02-2013, 03:01 PM
I'm with Diehard on this. The message is not about not giving, and it's not saying that homelessness doesn't exist. It's saying that the front line of this battle is not necessarily the person standing at the freeway exit with a neatly printed sign on a conspicuously tattered cardboard piece.

UtahDan
12-02-2013, 03:08 PM
I'm with Diehard on this. The message is not about not giving, and it's not saying that homelessness doesn't exist. It's saying that the front line of this battle is not necessarily the person standing at the freeway exit with a neatly printed sign on a conspicuously tattered cardboard piece.

The majority of the ink spilled is for the purpose of demonstrating that people who panhandle have brought it on themselves, are criminals and liars. I don't believe that people are going to draw the distinction you guys are. I think the typical reaction will be "see, most poor people are that way because they are lazy; also they don't obey the word of wisdom."

LA Ute
12-02-2013, 03:31 PM
At least 50% of the folks on the street are mentally ill and lead lives of true suffering. I feel for them. At the same time I know from personal experience with family members that giving a mentally ill person money is not doing him or her a favor at all. They almost never have the capacity to spend the money in a way that either doesn't create additional problems for them or simply does them no good. My chosen approach is to buy gift certificates from McDonald's or Burger King and give those to people who ask me for money and are clearly mentally ill. That way there's a decent chance they'll actually get a meal out of the encounter, even if it is not as healthy a meal as I might wish for them.

Scratch
12-02-2013, 03:34 PM
The majority of the ink spilled is for the purpose of demonstrating that people who panhandle have brought it on themselves, are criminals and liars. I don't believe that people are going to draw the distinction you guys are. I think the typical reaction will be "see, most poor people are that way because they are lazy; also they don't obey the word of wisdom."

Sorry, I think you're reading way more into it than most people would. I think most people who would read this will read it exactly how Fountain described it.

Sullyute
12-02-2013, 03:46 PM
I don't think most folks along the Wasatch front are doing anything to help the poor

That is a pretty bombasitc statement that you might want to back up with more than your opinion.

Scorcho
12-02-2013, 03:58 PM
I've discovered you can be a hero to your small kids for handing out a couple of bucks when asked. I understand the reasons for not giving, but if you can spare a couple of bucks I'm of the opinion that the benefits outweigh the negatives.

wally
12-02-2013, 04:31 PM
That is a pretty bombasitc statement that you might want to back up with more than your opinion.

LOL! It's true because we are all brainwashed mormons that only give money and effort to our cult church at the direction of our supreme leaders! TELL ME WHAT TO DO SUPREME LEADER!!! ;)

I think that the reason there is such a proliferation of panhandlers in Utah is because Utahns DO give to them!

I also agree with Diehard (who is probably on the actual front lines of this issue) that this story is good in that hopefully it redirects aid to the most effective venues. I would rather charities like the road home receive 75% of all the donations made to panhandlers than panhandlers receiving 100% of them because of the efficacy of the system in place at quality charities.

Rocker Ute
12-02-2013, 04:43 PM
That is a pretty bombasitc statement that you might want to back up with more than your opinion.

Agreed. I've been fortunate over the past few years to donate, help and serve some poverty stricken people and also to see what others are doing and I can safely say that universally I am overwhelmed by the generosity and the amount of aid rendered by people. I used to consider myself a fairly generous and service-oriented person and realize through these various experiences that I am miserly as compared to many.

And before you ask about it, this is both in religious settings along with things that are totally non-denominational.

I've found that often locally people are very willing to give and often struggle to find ways to give more.

I used to work by the homeless shelter pre Gateway shopping center. I also volunteered there and at their 'School with No Name.' There were a lot of people there struggling to get back on their feet with various problems as well. Many programs were under utilized, others were underfunded.

On the street I was routinely asked for money, sometimes I gave it but eventually got a bit hardened to it. I eventually went a similar route as LA where I would offer to buy them food and even go in and buy it for them. Most of those people turned me down and would keep pressing me to just give them money.

From my experience at the shelter I became convinced that even my buying of food on the spot for the occasional person who accepted it wasn't the best route. $5 at McDonalds for one unhealthy meal could represent a days worth of healthy food at St Vincents.

So here is what I try to do now... Every time someone asks me for money on the street I keep a bit of a mental tally and add that up and give it to the Utah Food Bank instead. The truth is sometimes hunger drives people back off of begging on the streets into places that can not only feed them, but help them too.

UtahDan
12-02-2013, 04:51 PM
That is a pretty bombasitc statement that you might want to back up with more than your opinion.

I agree. I don't really mean that.

LA Ute
12-02-2013, 04:58 PM
Agreed. I've been fortunate over the past few years to donate, help and serve some poverty stricken people and also to see what others are doing and I can safely say that universally I am overwhelmed by the generosity and the amount of aid rendered by people. I used to consider myself a fairly generous and service-oriented person and realize through these various experiences that I am miserly as compared to many.

And before you ask about it, this is both in religious settings along with things that are totally non-denominational.

I've found that often locally people are very willing to give and often struggle to find ways to give more.

I used to work by the homeless shelter pre Gateway shopping center. I also volunteered there and at their 'School with No Name.' There were a lot of people there struggling to get back on their feet with various problems as well. Many programs were under utilized, others were underfunded.

On the street I was routinely asked for money, sometimes I gave it but eventually got a bit hardened to it. I eventually went a similar route as LA where I would offer to buy them food and even go in and buy it for them. Most of those people turned me down and would keep pressing me to just give them money.

From my experience at the shelter I became convinced that even my buying of food on the spot for the occasional person who accepted it wasn't the best route. $5 at McDonalds for one unhealthy meal could represent a days worth of healthy food at St Vincents.

So here is what I try to do now... Every time someone asks me for money on the street I keep a bit of a mental tally and add that up and give it to the Utah Food Bank instead. The truth is sometimes hunger drives people back off of begging on the streets into places that can not only feed them, but help them too.

You've inspired me to get Subway or Jamba Juice gift certificates instead. Seriously, your approach makes lots of sense. We do have a pro bono client here (my very own little client) that takes homeless folks off the street, one by one, and gets them into a bed, medical treatment, a job or training for a job. It's a great little organization. They do a lot that helps a lot of people in a lasting way.

Scratch
12-02-2013, 05:01 PM
So here is what I try to do now... Every time someone asks me for money I keep a bit of a mental tally and add that up and give it to the Utah Food Bank instead.

Rocker, could I have some money?

There, I just bought someone a day's worth of healthy food. LA, you can never call me a Grinch again.

Viking
12-02-2013, 05:35 PM
I have just decided to never try to judge. If someone needs food or a spare dime, if I have it, I'm giving it. How or why a person got into their situation is a "sunk" cost and does not matter.

Scorcho
12-02-2013, 07:21 PM
I have just decided to never try to judge. If someone needs food or a spare dime, if I have it, I'm giving it. How or why a person got into their situation is a "sunk" cost and does not matter.

Great point.

When you think about the Savior or the great Samaritan they simply acted. They didn't concern themselves with how the individual arrived in their unfortunate current condition. For all we know the great Samaritan might have stumbled upon a thief, an attempted rapist or someone who owed significant gambling debts (maybe in some sense the man deserved his beating). We don't know why the poor fellow was left nearly dead by the side of the road, we simply know the Samaritan didn't judge, bound his wounds and took great care of him.

Maybe there is a lesson there. I think its are responsibility to give where we can. Let the receiver be responsible for how they spend it.

Diehard Ute
12-02-2013, 07:30 PM
Great point.

When you think about the Savior or the great Samaritan they simply acted. They didn't concern themselves with how the individual arrived in their unfortunate current condition. For all we know the great Samaritan might have stumbled upon a thief, an attempted rapist or someone who owed significant gambling debts (maybe in some sense the man deserved his beating). We don't know why the poor fellow was left nearly dead by the side of the road, we simply know the Samaritan didn't judge, bound his wounds and took great care of him.

Maybe there is a lesson there. I think its are responsibility to give where we can. Let the receiver be responsible for how they spend it.

Which you can do by giving to legitimate charitable organizations.

Rocker Ute
12-02-2013, 07:53 PM
Great point.

When you think about the Savior or the great Samaritan they simply acted. They didn't concern themselves with how the individual arrived in their unfortunate current condition. For all we know the great Samaritan might have stumbled upon a thief, an attempted rapist or someone who owed significant gambling debts (maybe in some sense the man deserved his beating). We don't know why the poor fellow was left nearly dead by the side of the road, we simply know the Samaritan didn't judge, bound his wounds and took great care of him.

Maybe there is a lesson there. I think its are responsibility to give where we can. Let the receiver be responsible for how they spend it.

You probably realize and know this, but it reminded me of little pet peeve of mine... The Good Samaritan was a parable and may not have been an actual person. I think it illustrates something so well that often people think it was something that actually happened (and perhaps it did, we don't really know). But it was a parable to illustrate that a Samaritan, a person despised at the time, did what the supposedly good people didn't or wouldn't do and someone who went the extra mile.

Interestingly what was once a despised people is synonymous with doing good today simply because of this parable.

But as Diehard said, giving to legitimate charities is probably far more 'Good Samaritan-like' than just giving them a few bucks because not only to you help them off the street but you keep them in care with the innkeeper and ensure that when you return you'll pay the difference in his care.

Sorry to get on the tangent... because it is as hard for me as it is everyone else to walk by and you wonder if you are doing the right thing by doing so. I don't think it is our place to judge but I do think it is our place to use good judgment. If that same guy asked you to buy him a dime bag would you?

Rocker Ute
12-02-2013, 07:55 PM
Rocker, could I have some money?

There, I just bought someone a day's worth of healthy food. LA, you can never call me a Grinch again.

No, you'll just waste what I gave you on strat-o-matic baseball leagues and loose women.

Rocker Ute
12-02-2013, 07:57 PM
No, you'll just waste what I gave you on strat-o-matic baseball leagues and loose women.

For the record I'm more concerned about strat-o-matic leagues.

Scratch
12-02-2013, 11:20 PM
For the record I'm more concerned about strat-o-matic leagues.

They're like a gateway drug.

Dwight Schr-Ute
12-02-2013, 11:56 PM
So are you saying that this isn't the most effective strategy?

http://youtu.be/G65z8p1YNhw

Come on. We all know that these people are just someone's Bishop trying to teach their congregation an important lesson.


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