Cougar Boards: Utah invites BYU to its house, Dec. 14, 2013

[Viking]

BYU has a pretty decent team. Mika needs to stay healthy and out of foul trouble.

Dave Rose is a great coach; I'm worried about his health...something just seems a little off this year.

[LA Ute]

BYU has a pretty decent team. Mika needs to stay healthy and out of foul trouble.

Dave Rose is a great coach; I'm worried about his health...something just seems a little off this year.

I admire and respect Rose as a coach. He gets the most out of his players, and he has an unusually promising bunch of young guys coming up. IMO the vulnerabilities in his approach are (1) he doesn't emphasize defense, and (2) he uses a running/transition game with players who can pull that off in the regular season (slow white guys) but come up short in the Dance against teams with more speed and quickness. I think those two weaknesses are the reason Utah has a very good shot at beating BYU in a couple of weeks.

[justaute]

We'll see how good our perimeter defense really is -- if not, we'll get lit-up. TDS certainly can shoot. And, I don't think their perimeter players are that slow.


I admire and respect Rose as a coach. He gets the most out of his players, and he has an unusually promising bunch of young guys coming up. IMO the vulnerabilities in his approach are (1) he doesn't emphasize defense, and (2) he uses a running/transition game with players who can pull that off in the regular season (slow white guys) but come up short in the Dance against teams with more speed and quickness. I think those two weaknesses are the reason Utah has a very good shot at beating BYU in a couple of weeks.

[sancho]

Moderators - we already have a thread dedicated to BYU. Can we merge this into that? I really hate the idea of multiple BYU threads on this board. Just keep it all in one place.

[SoCalPat]

Moderators - we already have a thread dedicated to BYU. Can we merge this into that? I really hate the idea of multiple BYU threads on this board. Just keep it all in one place.

Make this the game thread then, since we play BYU in a couple of weeks anyway.

[LA Ute]

Make this the game thread then, since we play BYU in a couple of weeks anyway.

Done. I'm totally open to a better thread name than we have.

[SoCalPat]

Watching BYU play Alma Mater No. 2 tonight. Some observations:

WSU really limited Haws touches and switched off on him with different players and really made him work for everything he got. Ron Baker is a shorter version of Alex Jensen, and WSU used him and Tekele Cotton, with some of Andrew Wiggins' little brother thrown in. Haws was invisible in the first half, had his moments in the second half but never got anywhere close to being in a groove. Haws doesn't get flustered by physical play, but he's clearly less effective when he's being bounced around.

BYU's zone is pretty aggressive out on the perimeter. To beat it, you have to get entry passes into the key and find cutters baseline. WSU has legitimate size that can score, and has multiple guys that could get passes in the key. Our bigs are not anywhere near as good. We're going to have to shoot a good percentage from the perimeter and we're going to have to do it with a hand in our face. We simply do not have a Cleanthony Early in the paint that will force BYU to play us straight up. I'm hopeful that Delon Wright can punch some holes in the zone with penetration.

The Mika kid is going to be very good. If he was on our side, we could be a tournament team this year. But he's young and fouls a lot. All of BYU's bigs endear themselves to the whistle. And they are not particularly fond of the glass. Nate Austin is a thug. I think we're athletic enough to make up for our lack of skilled bigs to not get crushed on the boards.

If it's a tight game, we'll be fouling Collinsworth.

You don't do anything special against Carlino. He's capable of getting hot, but he's also capable of taking bad shots and forgetting to get his teammates involved. We know that. And if he hits at shot against us and runs backcourt making the "Sssshhh" sign with his finger, I hope one of our guys breaks it off.

BYU's game against Stanford was truly something to behold. But if you get BYU in the half-court and keep them out of transition,they lose a lot of steam. We were able to do that at THTPB last year, we'll definitely be able to do it at home this year.

[Viking]

Done. I'm totally open to a better thread name than we have.

You are a gentleman. It is a pleasure to be here as a welcome cougar guest.

[sancho]

You don't do anything special against Carlino. He's capable of getting hot, but he's also capable of taking bad shots and forgetting to get his teammates involved. We know that. And if he hits at shot against us and runs backcourt making the "Sssshhh" sign with his finger, I hope one of our guys breaks it off.


Hopefully Rose hasn't figured out that Carlino should be on the bench with Collinsworth running the PG by the time this game is played. Carlino never met a shot he didn't like, and he is usually good for some key misses in a close game. Of course, like you said, he also stumbles into the occasional 9-11 shooting performance.

I agree with you on Mika. He looks good to me. He has at least one reliable post move (his hook). I wonder if he can get that off against a legitimate 7 footer. They should have gone to him more down the stretch.

That Austin foul was brutal. What a thug.

Haws is best in transition and off screens. I have seen him try to create his own shot a few times this season only to have it come back into his face.

Collinsworth reminds me of Britton - can get to the rim anytime, but can't finish consistently. You're right - he will shoot a ton of FTs in his career.

[kccougar]

LOL. Austin is no thug. A spaz, yes, and often playing a little out of control.

[sancho]

LOL. Austin is no thug. A spaz, yes, and often playing a little out of control.


Seems like this is the most interesting matchup in the Utah/BYU game. We start Loveridge at the 4 and Lenz at the 5. How to stop the Mika/Austin combo? Lenz on Mika, and Loveridge on Austin? Can Austin take advantage of a smaller defender in the post? Who is handling Loveridge for BYU in that scenario? I'd love to have Olsen on offense vs Mika with Bachynski/Kova on the other end.

[LA Ute]

LOL. Austin is no thug. A spaz, yes, and often playing a little out of control.

You are giving him the benefit of the doubt. We are discerning Ute fans, however. He's a thug.

(I've never seen him play so I have no idea.)

[LA Ute]

Just to help us get into the spirit of the upcoming game:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77twsRDPa0c

I wonder if we'll get a video for our game with them?

[SoCalPat]

Thinking some more of last night's game -- the corner 3 was open pretty much all night long for WSU. The Shox shot 28 3s and I bet at least a dozen were corner 3s. Against BYU's 2-3, I put Lenz in the high post, Loveridge running the baseline, Wright up top and Taylor and Tucker on the wings. We can get dribble penetration from Wright and that opens a lot of things up on the perimeter.

Also, just discovered this game is slated for the Pac-12 Network. I despise our TV deal.

[kccougar]

I wonder if we'll get a video for our game with them?

Unfortunately, the lip sync promos are only done for home games. But I did a google search for BYU at the Huntsman Center and I came up with this. It's probably good enough to get the BYU fans out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtOX5uxMiXo

[LA Ute]

Unfortunately, the lip sync promos are only done for home games. But I did a google search for BYU at the Huntsman Center and I came up with this. It's probably good enough to get the BYU fans out.

A dark moment in Ute basketball history. An odd flaw in the fabric of the space-time continuum. So dark, and so odd, that I have refused even to experience it. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/hit2-smiley.gif

[Rocker Ute]

LOL. Austin is no thug. A spaz, yes, and often playing a little out of control.

Anyone who doesn't do their home teaching is a thug in my book. Austin is a thug.

[kccougar]

Anyone who doesn't do their home teaching is a thug in my book. Austin is a thug.

But that's the thing. Austin is the kind of guy that ALWAYS does his home teaching. Calling him of all people a thug is pretty funny.

[LA Ute]

But that's the thing. Austin is the kind of guy that ALWAYS does his home teaching. Calling him of all people a thug is pretty funny.

Faithful home teachers are often the worst thugs of all. Surprised you don't know this.

[Rocker Ute]

Faithful home teachers are often the worst thugs of all. Surprised you don't know this.

Yup, there are two reasons to hide in your basement and not make a sound, thugs and home teachers. Austin is a HUGE thug... seriously I can't think of a BYU player who was a bigger thug, even Mikeli Wesley (sp) and Arujo (tattoo and sp). Were he not a soon to be bald white guy he'd totally be walking around with cornrows and being the son of a former NFL great.

[#1 Utefan]

I wouldn't call Rose a great coach. He is a good coach that has benefited significantly from BYU legacy kids and the Lone Peak pipeline in recent years.

Roses's style is no doubt fun to watch for fans and fun for their players. The problem is typically when BYU has to go up against more athletic, disciplined teams that also play defense at the national level. BYU's reluctance to play good D and a more disciplined style hurts them come tourney time which is why Rose and BYU have only advanced to the sweet 16 once in 30+ years.

This year's game should be interesting and close. Both teams seem considerably improved over last year when Utah took BYU to the wire in Provo after leading almost the entire game. I think the team that controls the tempo will win. If Utah allows itself to get caught up in Rose's run and gun, helter skelter style, they will likely lose. If Utah plays a defensive, half court type of game while running when the right opportunities are there, they will likely win.

This will likely be a close game either way. BYU fans expecting a Utah team of the past 4-5 years is going to be disappointed. The very bad, Boylen/Giacoletti years are in the past.

[Viking]

You are giving him the benefit of the doubt. We are discerning Ute fans, however. He's a thug.

(I've never seen him play so I have no idea.)
I don't think he is a thug (is it possible for someone from Orem to be a thug??).

He is a big man who has to revert to overly aggressive play to compensate for lack of talent.

KC is awesome. Bartley is a freshmen who plays like a senior and Carlino is just good enough.

Mika and KC stay healthy, this team should get better over the season and might have a S16 chance.

I think BYU is going to create fits for Utah. I'm going to be in town and will attend the game.

[#1 Utefan]

BYU is going to create "fits" for Utah? We will see. The game is in SLC and Utah had BYU on the ropes last year in Provo.

I have watched both teams this year multiple times. BYU has played a lot better competition so far and has been impressive for the most part. That said, I am hardly intimidated by BYU and maintain the team that controls the game tempo wins.

I hope BYU's team and Rose are as overconfident and some BYU fans appear to be. Keep discounting Utah and you may be in for a rude awakening.

[Rocker Ute]

I don't think he is a thug (is it possible for someone from Orem to be a thug??).

He is a big man who has to revert to overly aggressive play to compensate for lack of talent.

KC is awesome. Bartley is a freshmen who plays like a senior and Carlino is just good enough.

Mika and KC stay healthy, this team should get better over the season and might have a S16 chance.

I think BYU is going to create fits for Utah. I'm going to be in town and will attend the game.

You've just got to trust us on identifying thugs, we've had so many on our teams over the years (you know, Andre Miller and such) that we are very good at picking them out. Austin is a huge thug, he may not look the part but he definitely is.

Question: What is the difference between Marshall Henderson and Nate Austin?
Answer: While both opponents dropped to the floor in a like manner, Austin actually landed his elbow.

See, Marshall Henderson... we know our thugs.

[LA Ute]

I don't follow BYU basketball so I don't know much about the team. What defensive answers do they have for Wright, Onwas and Loveridge?

[Viking]

BYU is going to create "fits" for Utah? We will see. The game is in SLC and Utah had BYU on the ropes last year in Provo.

I have watched both teams this year multiple times. BYU has played a lot better competition so far and has been impressive for the most part. That said, I am hardly intimidated by BYU and maintain the team that controls the game tempo wins.

I hope BYU's team and Rose are as overconfident and some BYU fans appear to be. Keep discounting Utah and you may be in for a rude awakening.

Actually, we may both be wrong. BYU has given us a pretty good look at its team against solid competition.

Utah could be incredible, or totally mediocre...but its schedule has been very weak and we just don't know.

One must assume they are improved from last year.

BYU has a very balanced offense. I think it is hard for most teams to play a team where 4 of 5 starters can get solidly into double digits and a sixth man can do the same..teams that can consistently score 75-80 points are typically very very good teams.

[LA Ute]

On D, does BYU generally play a zone?

[sancho]

I think it is hard for most teams to play a team where 4 of 5 starters can get solidly into double digits and a sixth man can do the same

Sure, but it's a lot easier in a run'n'gun offense.

Who is the 6th man you are referring to? I have seen parts of BYU in two games this year and didn't notice anything special off the bench?

Carlino is averaging a lot of points, but he's doing it with a poor FG percentage. I don't mind giving him 15 points if he's going 5-14 to get there.

[SeattleUte]

I think this year we can run with them.

[LA Ute]

On D, does BYU generally play a zone?

I did some research on my own question and found this from an October 2013 SLTrib article (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/56975132-88/rose-cougars-byu-season.html.csp):


"For the most part, the concentration in the preseason, with this group, with our staff, will be on the defensive end," Rose said. "I think we really need to get back to where we can play man-to-man defense as our core defense, and then mix in zone as a way to help us get through [critical] times in games....

After the 2012-13 Cougars advanced to the semifinals of the NIT and finished the season with a 24-12 record, Rose and his staff identified the inability to play strong man-to-man defense as the program’s biggest weakness, so they challenged players to improve that aspect of their games in the offseason, and brought in a few new faces to help in that regard.


Partly, the Cougars played zone to keep Davies out of foul trouble; He’s trying to make the NBA’s Los Angeles Clippers these days, while the Cougars try to replace his scoring and rebounding with a serious lack of depth and experience inside.


That means they will try to push the tempo offensively more than ever before, and that’s easier done out of man-to-man defense than zone.


"I think down the stretch last year we became a little too predictable defensively, so our staff and our players are extremely focused on that end of the floor, and I think that will be a major emphasis here in the next three or four weeks," Rose said.


Have they been doing that this year? I am wondering if a team that lacks quicks can really play man against a team with Wright, Onwas, Tucker and Loveridge, especially as Wright and Onwas drive to the hoop. My guess is they'll go to a zone and dare us to beat them by shooting over it.

[SeattleUte]

There's nothing wrong with a zone as long as you have athletes like Syracuse.

[Scratch]

Sure, but it's a lot easier in a run'n'gun offense.

Who is the 6th man you are referring to? I have seen parts of BYU in two games this year and didn't notice anything special off the bench?

Carlino is averaging a lot of points, but he's doing it with a poor FG percentage. I don't mind giving him 15 points if he's going 5-14 to get there.

If you include Winder and Bartley, they have 6 guys who are legitimate threats to score double digits, although for some reason Winder hasn't been playing much lately. I don't know why, I don't follow them closely enough to know.

Of course, if I were the sixth man for any team going up against BYU I'd be a threat to score double digits, so there's the rub.

BYU has a good team, but a mediocre Texas team beat them and a good (and athletic) Wichita State team owned them in the second half (BYU only scored 26 in the second half). Collinsworth, Haws, Carlino, and Bartley went a combined 15-48 from the floor and were pretty well kept in check by Wichita's length and athleticism. I don't think we're as athletic as Wichita, but we're pretty long and athletic and I think that plays in our favor against this BYU team.

This is a game where I would like to get Olsen in the game early and run a lot of motion to get him isolated against Mika and then either feed him or have Wright drive right at Mika every time. If we can get Mika in early foul trouble I really like our chances. If Mika can play 30+ minutes I think BYU wins ths game by 5-10 points.

[UtahsMrSports]

I did some research on my own question and found this from an October 2013 SLTrib article (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/56975132-88/rose-cougars-byu-season.html.csp):



Have they been doing that this year? I am wondering if a team that lacks quicks can really play man against a team with Wright, Onwas, Tucker and Loveridge, especially as Wright and Onwas drive to the hoop. My guess is they'll go to a zone and dare us to beat them by shooting over it.

I have to believe that Dave Rose is smarter than to try and man up on us. If that is the case, we win comfortably. We will live at the line and their lack of front court depth with be their demise.

[USS Utah]

although for some reason Winder hasn't been playing much lately.

Spending too much time at the dairy?

[UtahsMrSports]

If you include Winder and Bartley, they have 6 guys who are legitimate threats to score double digits, although for some reason Winder hasn't been playing much lately. I don't know why, I don't follow them closely enough to know.

Of course, if I were the sixth man for any team going up against BYU I'd be a threat to score double digits, so there's the rub.

BYU has a good team, but a mediocre Texas team beat them and a good (and athletic) Wichita State team owned them in the second half (BYU only scored 26 in the second half). Collinsworth, Haws, Carlino, and Bartley went a combined 15-48 from the floor and were pretty well kept in check by Wichita's length and athleticism. I don't think we're as athletic as Wichita, but we're pretty long and athletic and I think that plays in our favor against this BYU team.

This is a game where I would like to get Olsen in the game early and run a lot of motion to get him isolated against Mika and then either feed him or have Wright drive right at Mika every time. If we can get Mika in early foul trouble I really like our chances. If Mika can play 30+ minutes I think BYU wins ths game by 5-10 points.

I believe they beat Texas but lost to Iowa State?

At any rate, the other guy to watch (who seems to be getting Winders minutes) is Skyler Halford. He is nothing new (small, gunner, litle else)

Here are my thoughts on this game:
Their starting front court is big with a solid freshman in Mika and a good energy guy in Austin. Both can be foul prone. When either needs a break/gets into foul trouble, they like to put Collinsworth (who, for my money, is their best player) at the four and go small. Our key will be tempo. Get them to play grind it out and they are going to struggle. Onwas will see time on both Haws and Collinsworth. He will need to be big on both ends, and on the boards for us. I do not see anyone on their roster who can stop Loveridge.

[sancho]

BYU has a good team, but a mediocre Texas team beat them and a good

I think BYU beat that Texas team. BYU is now either somewhere between 0-2 and 2-2 in meaningful games (depending on how you rate USU and Stanford). We are still 0-0.

[#1 Utefan]

BYU will definitely go to their zone and try to make Utah beat them from the outside. If Taylor, Loveridge, and/or Tucker are on, it will open things up a lot for Wright, Onwas, and Loveridge to attack and get Mika in foul trouble.

I realize Utah's athleticism is significantly improved but I still think it would be a mistake to get caught up in BYU's run and gun, helter skelter game. Most of the games they've won this year including Utah St. they forced their opposition into playing their style. The Wichita St. game plan is the key to beating BYU.

[Scratch]

I believe they beat Texas but lost to Iowa State?

At any rate, the other guy to watch (who seems to be getting Winders minutes) is Skyler Halford. He is nothing new (small, gunner, litle else)

Here are my thoughts on this game:
Their starting front court is big with a solid freshman in Mika and a good energy guy in Austin. Both can be foul prone. When either needs a break/gets into foul trouble, they like to put Collinsworth (who, for my money, is their best player) at the four and go small. Our key will be tempo. Get them to play grind it out and they are going to struggle. Onwas will see time on both Haws and Collinsworth. He will need to be big on both ends, and on the boards for us. I do not see anyone on their roster who can stop Loveridge.

Right, I was thinking "narrowly beat" Texas but then my thought process got interrupted when some pesky client called. Don't they know I have more imprtant things to do? In any event, thanks for the correction.

Also, I watch that Iowa State game, and that was the best I've seen BYU play this year. They played much better against ISU than they did against Texas.

[U-Ute]

I think the team that controls the tempo will win. If Utah allows itself to get caught up in Rose's run and gun, helter skelter style, they will likely lose. If Utah plays a defensive, half court type of game while running when the right opportunities are there, they will likely win.

I think you're basing this on previous teams. This year's Utah team likes to get out and run, and does so effectively.

I think that the size and length of Onwas, Tucker, and especially Wright, is going to give BYU guards fits. BYU doesn't have an answer for JLove. The problem area is going to be inside. Lenz has been playing well, but I don't think we have a real solid post presence and Mika is a handful. This is a game where we could really use Kovacevic.

I see Utah making this a statement in this game. Feeding on bottom dwellers isn't very satisfying. They are ready for a break out game.

[Scratch]

I agree that Collinsworth is their best player. He reminds me a lot of Alex Jensen, but as a better ball-handler and inferior shooter. Frankly, if I were Rose I'd be sorely tempted to put the ball in Collinsworth's hands and have Carlino basically play as a spot-up shooter and driver when the defense is off-balance. Carlino just isn't good enough to create open jumpers or driving lanes when he's the primary ball handler; I think Collinsworth could create much higher percentage looks for him.

[sancho]

I agree that Collinsworth is their best player. He reminds me a lot of Alex Jensen, but as a better ball-handler and inferior shooter. Frankly, if I were Rose I'd be sorely tempted to put the ball in Collinsworth's hands and have Carlino basically play as a spot-up shooter and driver when the defense is off-balance. Carlino just isn't good enough to create open jumpers or driving lanes when he's the primary ball handler; I think Collinsworth could create much higher percentage looks for him.

I have heard a few people make the same suggestion to play Collinsworth at PG. Makes sense to me. I don't see Alex Jensen in him, but I do see him as a mix of the two Johnson brothers.

[Rocker Ute]

I've caught parts of a few games of BYU and they've been running the zone each time I've watched. As Scratch mentioned the Shockers basically out-athleted (a new term I've coined just now) BYU in the second half. My observation of Iowa St is that they are a team that doesn't run a lot of plays but basically lets their athletes beat you on the floor (basically what Boylen tried to run but lacked the athletes or the smarts to do). I would imagine that is a tough system for BYU to defend, particularly when the other team is hitting their shots.

My guess is we have better athletes giving us an Iowa St like advantage, but we also will be running a system to exploit BYU. My guess is that they WILL put a lot of zone on us and so the name of the game will be getting Delon Wright to penetrate and shoot or pass to our bigs or dish back out for the 3 point shot.

Also, don't be surprised to see Tyler Haws getting bumped around a lot. He really seems to struggle with this and I can see a guy assigned solely to getting in his head. Don't get offended cougar fans, I'd take Haws in a heartbeat, but he still does get rattled.

I can see a similar strategy underneath, and I can see a constant rotation of Lenz, Bachynski and Olsen down there to pick up a lot of fouls.

Which brings me to another point: Why BYU will struggle to go deep in the tournament... The tournament is far more physical play out there than you get on the left coast like where they play along with the tournament being heavy with an east coast more loose style of play. They seem to be a team that will struggle with a big guy underneath pushing around and some physical play on the perimeter. I'm not saying BYU is bad, I just don't think they are a team built for the tournament.

Now I could be very wrong but I tend to think that Utah will be up for the challenge against Boise St and BYU. It is true they haven't been tested yet, but they seem to have both the intangible and tangibles that can cause them to be a struggle for just about any team. Yeesh... who would have thought we'd even be slightly interested in playing either of those teams in basketball. Cats and Dogs sleeping with each other indeed.

I'll also add, having watch a lot of Utah and a little bit of BYU, and then watching AZ vs Duke... those guys are in an entirely different league and you realize how far we really have to go still.

[Viking]

I have heard a few people make the same suggestion to play Collinsworth at PG. Makes sense to me. I don't see Alex Jensen in him, but I do see him as a mix of the two Johnson brothers.

Collinsworth doesn't have the same ball handling skills. I'd worry about him at the point.

I think BYU is showing itself thus far as a round of 32 team. Bartley and Mika are the wildcards. If they can mature (both are freshman) over the season, and if we can get away from Nate Austin as much as possible, I see an ok shot at the Sweet 16 but it would take a decent draw.

I don't know how to evaluate Utah's 2013 squad. We'll see next week! I'm pretty excited as I'm not from Utah and have never been to a game at the Huntsman Center. I have low expectations of the facility and high expectations for the game.

[Diehard Ute]

Collinsworth doesn't have the same ball handling skills. I'd worry about him at the point.

I think BYU is showing itself thus far as a round of 32 team. Bartley and Mika are the wildcards. If they can mature (both are freshman) over the season, and if we can get away from Nate Austin as much as possible, I see an ok shot at the Sweet 16 but it would take a decent draw.

I don't know how to evaluate Utah's 2013 squad. We'll see next week! I'm pretty excited as I'm not from Utah and have never been to a game at the Huntsman Center. I have low expectations of the facility and high expectations for the game.

I'm sure you'll find the lack of bleacher seats appalling.

[sancho]

I think BYU is showing itself thus far as a round of 32 team. Bartley and Mika are the wildcards. If they can mature (both are freshman) over the season, and if we can get away from Nate Austin as much as possible, I see an ok shot at the Sweet 16 but it would take a decent draw.


You're assuming BYU gets in. You have to beat some combination of UMass/Oregon/Gonzaga to really guarantee it. Otherwise, you will be relying only on volume of wins.

[UtahsMrSports]

You're assuming BYU gets in. You have to beat some combination of UMass/Oregon/Gonzaga to really guarantee it. Otherwise, you will be relying only on volume of wins.

Theyll have to win 2 of those games. As much as they like to talk about our schedule, if they go 0-for that section theyll be in the NIT again.

[sancho]

Theyll have to win 2 of those games. As much as they like to talk about our schedule, if they go 0-for that section theyll be in the NIT again.

Texas beat Vandy last night, so maybe some part of the USU/Stanford/Texas win combo will end up helping their resume. Their game at UMass looks bigger than they ever would have expected when they scheduled it.

[UtahsMrSports]

Texas beat Vandy last night, so maybe some part of the USU/Stanford/Texas win combo will end up helping their resume. Their game at UMass looks bigger than they ever would have expected when they scheduled it.

great points.

[Viking]

You're assuming BYU gets in. You have to beat some combination of UMass/Oregon/Gonzaga to really guarantee it. Otherwise, you will be relying only on volume of wins.

It is a long season but to an objective observer, BYU appears to be a solid 8-10 seed.

[sancho]

It is a long season but to an objective observer, BYU appears to be a solid 8-10 seed.

I agree that BYU looks like a tournament team. Win a few more big games, and it's a lock. Both Utah and BYU are improved this year, and BYU might be even more improved that Utah. We'll see soon.

I disagree that it's a long season. BYU's season basically ends after the Oregon game. The rest is two months of fluff with an occasional Gonzaga game thrown in just to remind everyone that you are still there. BYU should get into the bracket buster Saturday just to get on the radar again in Feb. As a BYU fan, do you watch all the WCC games? Do you get tired of them? I'm genuinely curious to know what the feeling is on this. I've had no interaction with BYU basketball fans since the WCC move.

[USS Utah]

It is a long season but to an objective observer, BYU appears to be a solid 8-10 seed.

So another first round loss is a real possibility.

[LA Ute]

As a BYU fan, do you watch all the WCC games? Do you get tired of them? I'm genuinely curious to know what the feeling is on this.

I love watching PAC-12 basketball. Football too.

[SoCalPat]

I agree that BYU looks like a tournament team. Win a few more big games, and it's a lock. Both Utah and BYU are improved this year, and BYU might be even more improved that Utah. We'll see soon.

I disagree that it's a long season. BYU's season basically ends after the Oregon game. The rest is two months of fluff with an occasional Gonzaga game thrown in just to remind everyone that you are still there. BYU should get into the bracket buster Saturday just to get on the radar again in Feb. As a BYU fan, do you watch all the WCC games? Do you get tired of them? I'm genuinely curious to know what the feeling is on this. I've had no interaction with BYU basketball fans since the WCC move.

It's a month of fluff, from Christmas to near the end of January. BYU's schedule is heavily backloaded. They play 8 WCC games before they play Gonzaga, St. Mary's or Pacific -- that's three of your top four teams in that league. Their non-con SOS is quite possibly among the 10 best in the nation. If they win 21 total games, they're in.

[sancho]

If they win 21 total games, they're in.

It depends on the 21 wins. In theory, they could get to more than 21 with their best win coming against USU. That may not be enough, depending on the bubble.

[SoCalPat]

It depends on the 21 wins. In theory, they could get to more than 21 with their best win coming against USU. That may not be enough, depending on the bubble.

I just went through their schedule. They can get to 21 right now without beating anyone better than Utah State. That means losing to Utah, Oregon, UMass and getting swept by Gonzaga, St. Mary's and Pacific, but losing their WCC tourney opener.

They'll be in good shape if they can win one of the three remaining non-con roadies (UMass, Utah, Oregon). Two out of three and the wheels would really have to fall off for BYU not to get in. If they lose all three, they're gonna have to get a win at St. Mary's or Gonzaga to get in IMO.

[Scratch]

I just went through their schedule. They can get to 21 right now without beating anyone better than Utah State. That means losing to Utah, Oregon, UMass and getting swept by Gonzaga, St. Mary's and Pacific, but losing their WCC tourney opener.

They'll be in good shape if they can win one of the three remaining non-con roadies (UMass, Utah, Oregon). Two out of three and the wheels would really have to fall off for BYU not to get in. If they lose all three, they're gonna have to get a win at St. Mary's or Gonzaga to get in IMO.

I'm not sure St. Mary's is going to be a chance for BYU to get a truly quality win this year. They've looked fine so far, but let's see how they do without Dellavedova when they go up against Boise, South Carolina, Pacific, and Gonzaga.

[sancho]

Did I miss something? When did Pacific turn into a quality opponent? If Pacific were in the Pac-12, where would they be picked to finish? 11th? 12th? What about St Mary's?

[FountainOfUte]

Did I miss something? When did Pacific turn into a quality opponent? If Pacific were in the Pac-12, where would they be picked to finish? 11th? 12th? What about St Mary's?

That's what I was thinking. Toss out Pacific as a win that means a tinker's dam. It doesn't. St. Mary's maybe barely does. To anyone NOT a fan of a WCC team, Gonzaga is the only game that matters.

[sancho]

That's what I was thinking. Toss out Pacific as a win that means a tinker's dam. It doesn't. St. Mary's maybe barely does. To anyone NOT a fan of a WCC team, Gonzaga is the only game that matters.

The St Mary's/BYU series is important for each team because the WCC will get a max of two teams in. Beating St Mary's is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

[#1 Utefan]

Pacific would be picked last in the PAC-12. If they were on Utah's schedule this year, BYU fans would be using them as another example of Utah's soft schedule and why they will blow Utah out of the gym on the 14th. Then again, they more likely would try to spin it that they are the 2nd best on Utah's preco and better then BSU since they have to to defend the pathetic WCC at all costs.

St. Mary's has played a weak schedule so far and hasn't been blowing out mediocre opponents so my guess is they are average this year. We should have a better gauge of both them and BSU when they play in the next week or so.

[SoCalPat]

That's what I was thinking. Toss out Pacific as a win that means a tinker's dam. It doesn't. St. Mary's maybe barely does. To anyone NOT a fan of a WCC team, Gonzaga is the only game that matters.

Pacific is a fringe top 50 RPI team right now. That's the only reason I put them in there. Their RPI obviously can change and likely for the worse.

[Scratch]

Pacific is a fringe top 50 RPI team right now. That's the only reason I put them in there. Their RPI obviously can change and likely for the worse.

And I included them in my post about St. Mary's because it's looking like that will be one of the few games that tells us if St. Mary's is in a class above the rest of the WCC, or if they're just a team that's one of the better other 8 teams in the conference.

[sancho]

And I included them in my post about St. Mary's because it's looking like that will be one of the few games that tells us if St. Mary's is in a class above the rest of the WCC, or if they're just a team that's one of the better other 8 teams in the conference.

All right, then, it's settled. Pacific stinks.

[Viking]

Ugly game for the zoobs yesterday. Bubble team, at this point.

Uglier still was the cougarboard like reaction on CUF.

[sancho]

All right, then, it's settled. Pacific stinks.

I see that Pacific beat Utah State yesterday. I guess it's an open question on them.

[LA Ute]

This article by Tony Jones is relevant to the BYU game:

Utah basketball: Are the Runnin’ Utes back? (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/57238714-89/points-utah-utes-scored.html.csp)

The beginning paragraphs:


By the time Utah’s 90-77 win over Fresno State Saturday was complete, the numbers of the second half were nothing short of impressive. The Utes scored 50 points in the final 20 minutes. The 16 points they scored in a three-minute span gave them separation the Bulldogs never were able to narrow. Much of the damage was done in transition, pleasing those who braved the snowy weather to come to the Huntsman Center.

If the first eight games are any indication, the Runnin’ Utes may be back. Larry Krystkowiak hinted at the desire to play faster in the preseason, with players echoing the sentiment. But nothing provides more perfect proof than actually doing it. Heading into Tuesday’s home match up with Idaho State, Utah’s averaging 87.6 points per game, ranking them 11th nationally. The Utes have scored at least 80 five times, and have scored below 70 just once.


It’s a different feeling, as Krystkowiak has his team playing up-tempo basketball for the first time in his three-year stint on the hill. Instead of slowing it down, Utah’s pushing the pace. Instead of struggling to score points, the Utes are doing so in bunches.


"This is how we want to play," Krystkowiak said. "We want to get up and down. we want to run but we had to have the guys who could do this. We talked about changing the way we play over the summer as a coaching staff. We knew what we wanted to do and it’s kind of playing itself out."



I am not sure the Utes really have been of the "Runnin'" variety since the Jack Gardner era. This is quite a change. I wonder what Krysko will do to make BYU play our transition game, instead of or trying to play theirs? I wonder what BYU's backcourt will be able to do with Wright and Taylor? This is shaping up to be a fun game.

[U-Ute]

This article by Tony Jones is relevant to the BYU game:

Utah basketball: Are the Runnin’ Utes back? (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/57238714-89/points-utah-utes-scored.html.csp)

I am not sure the Utes really have been of the "Runnin'" variety since the Jack Gardner era. This is quite a change. I wonder what Krysko will do to make BYU play our transition game, instead of or trying to play theirs? I wonder what BYU's backcourt will be able to do with Wright and Taylor? This is shaping up to be a fun game.

One thing that has impressed me about this attacking offense is that they do it intelligently. They attack when they can, with the right guys are taking the right shots, but they pull it back out and set up the offense if they can't. We're not seeing a lot of empty possessions ending in turnovers or bad shots that are a signature of many up-tempo style teams.

eg: The Utes had 21 assists to 6 turnovers, and shot 60% from the field against Fresno State.

The key for much of Utah's transition game is Wright getting defensive rebounds. He's averaging 6 defensive boards per game. Having a PG that can rebound and make good decisions with the basketball is a huge advantage. It was one of the main reasons Miller was so effective when he was at Utah. My guess is that BYU will commit fewer guys to the offensive glass in order to keep our transition game in check. That will help us counter those long-offensive-rebound-turned-into-3 that BYU tends to get since they shoot so many 3's.

Curious stat of the day:

Utah 3pt % (8 games): 50-147 (.340)
BYU 3pt % (10 games): 49-146 (.336)

[sancho]

Curious stat of the day:

Utah 3pt % (8 games): 50-147 (.340)
BYU 3pt % (10 games): 49-146 (.336)

Well, BYU has faced much tougher competition than we have to arrive at that shooting percentage. We are shooting 34% against many of the worst defenses in the nation. It's possible that we drop a lot when we get into conference play.

[U-Ute]

Well, BYU has faced much tougher competition than we have to arrive at that shooting percentage. We are shooting 34% against many of the worst defenses in the nation. It's possible that we drop a lot when we get into conference play.

I wasn't really looking at who was better. They have played two more games than we have, so it isn't a real apples/apples comparison, but I was bemused at how nearly identical they were. It was something I wasn't expecting to see given how many 3's BYU puts up. It does say that we're putting up more 3's this year than we typically do, and are hitting at a decent clip.

[Senioritis]

I saw just a bit of BYU vs. UMass. UMass has some piss and vinegar. I'd like to see their PG against a team that has even a sniff of a desire to play any defense whatsoever.

BYU's defense is so bad it's like an entire team full of Jimmers, but if Utah tries to run with them they could score 120. Really, their zone is like when a bunch of rec league guys get tired so they switch to zone, put up a lazy hand against open shots, and only put forth even a modicum of effort when they have a chance to get into a passing lane for a steal. Maybe they were just tired from all of the totally rad music video shooting, like when Shaq came back really fat after shooting Shazam and rapping all summer.

Also, Mika is a freaking beast. If he doesn't get in foul trouble, BYU is a very good team. I like him and Collinsworth a lot, although Collinsworth looks to be suffering from a horrible case of alopecia areata that he's trying to cover up with a haircut like Detlef Schrempf. Obviously Haws is just splendid. I hate Carlino. I've hated him ever since that fluke of like 7 threes in a row last year in BLEACHERDOME! They have big pasty stiffs off the bench just like Utah, and a couple of black guys that actually seem like they have run their fair share of defensive slide drills.

I don't love the Utes in this one, but I think we're in the same league as the BYU. Well, not really, but you know what I'm saying. Also, BYU fans have already started complaining about the officiating, so you know the Mighty Utes have a chance.

It would be wonderful to have some delicious Taffy Time following the contest on Saturday. I don't expect it, but it's not hopeless.

[SoCalPat]

It would be wonderful to have some delicious Taffy Time following the contest on Saturday. I don't expect it, but it's not hopeless.

I expect to win. Larry coaches defense better than Rose and we've got the best player on the floor in Wright. We're also playing at home. It's not a win that will register nationally, but we take back control of the state after Saturday night.

[Rocker Ute]

I hope the Utes attempt a full court press like they did against Fresno... aka the worst press I think I've ever seen. It was so comically bad I don't even know what the eventual outcome of it was.

I predict Utah wins this easily because the Deseret First Duel trophy is on the line and everybody knows it.

[#1 Utefan]

Collinsworth hair... LOL. I was thinking the same thing when I've seen him play a few times this year. Worst hair in college basketball.

The mullet never really worked for anyone but it looks 10x worse when you have a severely receding hairline. He might be able to pull it off if he was a hockey player but he needs to just bite the bullet and get a buzz cut or accept the fact a mullet can't compensate for what appears to be Inevitable early male alopecia.

[Applejack]

I saw just a bit of BYU vs. UMass. UMass has some piss and vinegar. I'd like to see their PG against a team that has even a sniff of a desire to play any defense whatsoever.

BYU's defense is so bad it's like an entire team full of Jimmers, but if Utah tries to run with them they could score 120. Really, their zone is like when a bunch of rec league guys get tired so they switch to zone, put up a lazy hand against open shots, and only put forth even a modicum of effort when they have a chance to get into a passing lane for a steal. Maybe they were just tired from all of the totally rad music video shooting, like when Shaq came back really fat after shooting Shazam and rapping all summer.

Also, Mika is a freaking beast. If he doesn't get in foul trouble, BYU is a very good team. I like him and Collinsworth a lot, although Collinsworth looks to be suffering from a horrible case of alopecia areata that he's trying to cover up with a haircut like Detlef Schrempf. Obviously Haws is just splendid. I hate Carlino. I've hated him ever since that fluke of like 7 threes in a row last year in BLEACHERDOME! They have big pasty stiffs off the bench just like Utah, and a couple of black guys that actually seem like they have run their fair share of defensive slide drills.

I don't love the Utes in this one, but I think we're in the same league as the BYU. Well, not really, but you know what I'm saying. Also, BYU fans have already started complaining about the officiating, so you know the Mighty Utes have a chance.

It would be wonderful to have some delicious Taffy Time following the contest on Saturday. I don't expect it, but it's not hopeless.


I expect to win. Larry coaches defense better than Rose and we've got the best player on the floor in Wright. We're also playing at home. It's not a win that will register nationally, but we take back control of the state after Saturday night.


I hope the Utes attempt a full court press like they did against Fresno... aka the worst press I think I've ever seen. It was so comically bad I don't even know what the eventual outcome of it was.

I predict Utah wins this easily because the Deseret First Duel trophy is on the line and everybody knows it.

This thread has taken a turn for the better. I agree with Senor Itis that this is not a great matchup for us. I think Mika is going to really enjoy having Renan Lenz to throw around for 2 halves - I'm hoping for foul trouble for one of them. I also think it is a huge mistake to try and run with BYU. Yes, Tony Jones is breathless about how good the Utes are in transition, but aK Johney Dawkins what happens when you try and out-offense a team built purely for offense. If the Utes have a shot (and they do) they make BYU work for their points and then swing the ball around to find the massive, Jake-Shoff sized hole in their zone.

I think that it goes without saying that Wright and JLo need to bring their A games. We will also need Olsen/Lenz/Batshitinski to man-up and play through all the thuggishness that is coming their way.

[sancho]

I think Mika is going to really enjoy having Renan Lenz to throw around for 2 halves

Mika is the key to BYU's success this game, this season, and in the next 5 years. All the Haws in thew world aren't enough to win the big games, but combine them with an impact center, and there is life. He is the only NBA potential player currently on the team or in the pipeline. If anyone has honor code violation evidence against him, it had better get mailed to the local salt lake city newspaper right away. That said, he's still just a freshman on a team full of guards who prefer to take low percentage shots. I doubt he's gone up against many 7 foot centers in his life. Let's see if he can get the hook shot off against Bach.

[Scratch]

Mika is the key to BYU's success this game, this season, and in the next 5 years. All the Haws in thew world aren't enough to win the big games, but combine them with an impact center, and there is life. He is the only NBA potential player currently on the team or in the pipeline. If anyone has honor code violation evidence against him, it had better get mailed to the local salt lake city newspaper right away. That said, he's still just a freshman on a team full of guards who prefer to take low percentage shots. I doubt he's gone up against many 7 foot centers in his life. Let's see if he can get the hook shot off against Bach.

This actually points to one of my concerns this year - the inability of our bigs to draw fouls and get to the line. In 310 total minutes, our three-headed center monster (sorry for excluding you, Xanadu) has only shot 39 free throws, and Lenz is the worst of the bunch at getting to the line (but not by much). I think we'd be in better shape if our bigs could get a few more easy points at the line and get opposing big men into foul trouble. If we could get 2 called on Mika in the first 10 minutes we win that game. I wonder if Wright and/or Loveridge could take it right at Mika and draw some fouls. Actually, I take it back. I think we should just start Ahmad and let Ahmad take it right at Mika over and over again. I think Ahmad draws a foul every time he touches the ball.

[SoCalPat]

This actually points to one of my concerns this year - the inability of our bigs to draw fouls and get to the line.

Collectively, I knew our guys were better about getting to the line this year over last, but here's a surprising stat: They're actually much better than Washburn was last year in this regard. He got to the line about once every 12 minutes. Batshitski, Lenz and Olson all get there once every 7-9 minutes.

Normally, Washburn's FTA rate would be deemed unacceptable for your starting center, but he took by far the highest frequency of shots on the team, as well as making more of them than anyone on the team, as evidenced by his team-high 55 percent FG%. If he could've doubled his FTA (to 140), he would've been statistically on par with Luke Nevill as a senior.

[sancho]

Collectively, I knew our guys were better about getting to the line this year over last, but here's a surprising stat: They're actually much better than Washburn was last year in this regard. He got to the line about once every 12 minutes. Batshitski, Lenz and Olson all get there once every 7-9 minutes.


This probably has as much to do with tempo as with anything else.

The sad flaw of basketball as a sport is that getting the other team to break the rules is the single most important part of the game.

[kccougar]

I wasn't really looking at who was better. They have played two more games than we have, so it isn't a real apples/apples comparison, but I was bemused at how nearly identical they were. It was something I wasn't expecting to see given how many 3's BYU puts up. It does say that we're putting up more 3's this year than we typically do, and are hitting at a decent clip.

BYU is shooting far fewer 3's than in years past, last year in particular.

[U-Ute]

I think Mika is going to really enjoy having Renan Lenz to throw around for 2 halves - I'm hoping for foul trouble for one of them.


We will also need Olsen/Lenz/Batshitinski to man-up and play through all the thuggishness that is coming their way.

I am hopeful that we will see Kovacevic tonight and see where he is. If he can play, he could add some inside minutes against BYU.


I also think it is a huge mistake to try and run with BYU.

I think if we play the way we have, and get out and run intelligently, we will be fine.

[UtahsMrSports]

Ok, all of the other games are out of the way and now its on to rivalry game! I love this rivalry on the hardwood. (Which is funny, because im a very outspoken member of the "I dont care if the Holy War in football goes away forever!" club)

A few thoughts on the game:

-As TJ mentioned last night, I would think that Larry will take a long, hard look at putting Dakari back in the starting lineup. His shooting can help space the floor and give our other guys room to operate.

-I think Bach could have a big night. I have loved his energy and defensive presence this year. We'll need him to counter Mika.

-I am not sure BYU has an answer for Loveridge. They like to go with Collinsworth at the 4 with 3 guards and Mika/Austin in the middle. I don't know who guards Loveridge in that lineup. Maybe Rose will have K Collinsworth on him down the stretch, but not for the whole game. Maybe we will see more of Josh Sharp and if that is the case, that is great news for Utah.

-Carlino, Haws, Collinsworth, Mika, Bartley, Halford is an awfully tough group to defend. If we want to not get blown off the court, everyone needs to be on their A game on the defensive side of the ball. We might realize just how valuable Cedric Martin was after this game.


Ok, I now present the top 5 fan signs I have seen at BYU-Utah games

5. "Obey the Word of Drisdom"
4. "Hey Bogut, Tim Frost's mom called, she wants her wig back!"
3. "I hope they tattoo me on my mission, so I can play for BYU!" (parody of a popular LDS primary song, taking a shot at Elder 8 Mile)
2. A picture of Luke Nevill next to a picture of Beaker from the muppets with the words "seperated at birth?" underneath
1. This wasn't at the game, but my sister saw a homeless person up at the U once and his sign just simply said "BYU is not very good" ha! I love that!

[sancho]

Ok, all of the other games are out of the way and now its on to rivalry game! I love this rivalry on the hardwood. (Which is funny, because im a very outspoken member of the "I dont care if the Holy War in football goes away forever!" club)


Funny, I have better memories associated with the football rivalry. Bigger moments. But there have been some great moments in basketball too.

This is the first time we have gone up against a quality big man. We'll see how that goes.

If Loveridge is shooting well, he will be very hard for them to handle.

Another shooter - Tucker or Taylor - will have to make some big threes.

Our defense is suspect, and I expect them to score a lot.

[UBlender]

3. "I hope they tattoo me on my mission, so I can play for BYU!" (parody of a popular LDS primary song, taking a shot at Elder 8 Mile)


(Takes a bow).

[Scratch]

(Takes a bow).

Jerk.

[Two Utes]

Ok, all of the other games are out of the way and now its on to rivalry game! I love this rivalry on the hardwood. (Which is funny, because im a very outspoken member of the "I dont care if the Holy War in football goes away forever!" club)

A few thoughts on the game:

-As TJ mentioned last night, I would think that Larry will take a long, hard look at putting Dakari back in the starting lineup. His shooting can help space the floor and give our other guys room to operate.

-I think Bach could have a big night. I have loved his energy and defensive presence this year. We'll need him to counter Mika.

-I am not sure BYU has an answer for Loveridge. They like to go with Collinsworth at the 4 with 3 guards and Mika/Austin in the middle. I don't know who guards Loveridge in that lineup. Maybe Rose will have K Collinsworth on him down the stretch, but not for the whole game. Maybe we will see more of Josh Sharp and if that is the case, that is great news for Utah.

-Carlino, Haws, Collinsworth, Mika, Bartley, Halford is an awfully tough group to defend. If we want to not get blown off the court, everyone needs to be on their A game on the defensive side of the ball. We might realize just how valuable Cedric Martin was after this game.


Ok, I now present the top 5 fan signs I have seen at BYU-Utah games

5. "Obey the Word of Drisdom"
4. "Hey Bogut, Tim Frost's mom called, she wants her wig back!"
3. "I hope they tattoo me on my mission, so I can play for BYU!" (parody of a popular LDS primary song, taking a shot at Elder 8 Mile)
2. A picture of Luke Nevill next to a picture of Beaker from the muppets with the words "seperated at birth?" underneath
1. This wasn't at the game, but my sister saw a homeless person up at the U once and his sign just simply said "BYU is not very good" ha! I love that!

Looking at Carlino's stats, he shoots less the 29% from the 3 and has taken more than twice as many as any other player. Given he's not known for his defense, if you look at his numbers, you could make an extremely good argument that BYU is better off with him on the bench the whole game and instead give all of his minutes to Bartley and Halford.

Carlino is a liability. Yet, BYU let's him run around and take shitty shots, hoping he catches fire and turns into Jimmer. Guys like Carlino make me hate basketball. He has no business getting the minutes he gets and he had no business getting the pub he got coming out of high school.

Play the odds and hope BYU plays him a ton of minutes.

[Applejack]

Ok, all of the other games are out of the way and now its on to rivalry game! I love this rivalry on the hardwood. (Which is funny, because im a very outspoken member of the "I dont care if the Holy War in football goes away forever!" club)

A few thoughts on the game:

-As TJ mentioned last night, I would think that Larry will take a long, hard look at putting Dakari back in the starting lineup. His shooting can help space the floor and give our other guys room to operate.

-I think Bach could have a big night. I have loved his energy and defensive presence this year. We'll need him to counter Mika.

-I am not sure BYU has an answer for Loveridge. They like to go with Collinsworth at the 4 with 3 guards and Mika/Austin in the middle. I don't know who guards Loveridge in that lineup. Maybe Rose will have K Collinsworth on him down the stretch, but not for the whole game. Maybe we will see more of Josh Sharp and if that is the case, that is great news for Utah.

-Carlino, Haws, Collinsworth, Mika, Bartley, Halford is an awfully tough group to defend. If we want to not get blown off the court, everyone needs to be on their A game on the defensive side of the ball. We might realize just how valuable Cedric Martin was after this game.


Ok, I now present the top 5 fan signs I have seen at BYU-Utah games

5. "Obey the Word of Drisdom"
4. "Hey Bogut, Tim Frost's mom called, she wants her wig back!"
3. "I hope they tattoo me on my mission, so I can play for BYU!" (parody of a popular LDS primary song, taking a shot at Elder 8 Mile)
2. A picture of Luke Nevill next to a picture of Beaker from the muppets with the words "seperated at birth?" underneath
1. This wasn't at the game, but my sister saw a homeless person up at the U once and his sign just simply said "BYU is not very good" ha! I love that!

BYU rarely plays man defense (do they ever?). Collinsworth would be a tough matchup for JLo - he's the Cougars best defender and his length would challenge Loveridge. But if BYU goes man, the first order of business should be a pick and roll with Wright and whoever is being guarded by Mika.

But Dave Rose is not an idiot: he'll zone us and take a chance that we can't hit from outside and then punish us on the break when we miss.

[UBlender]

Jerk.

Look, I don't know where you got the idea that it would be cool to get a "barbed wire" on your....do you still call it a bicep?....on your mission. Don't come after me for pointing out your folly.

[Rocker Ute]

I predict that all attention from BYU will focus, rightfully so, on shutting down Wright and Loveridge, they'll shut down one but not both. We'll also see some breakouts from guys like Tucker, Onwas and Taylor.

The key to shutting down Haws is to bump him and bump often. He can't overcome genetics and after getting bumped a few times his need to whine to the refs just like his father will overpower his will to just play basketball. Knowing this is the weakness of Haws, were I Rose I'd be instructing his teammates to be giving him gratuitous nut shots around campus until he got over it.

Thyroid is going to attempt to have a game of a lifetime, but I fear that it will go down like the battle of the brothers last year. Two fouls in 1 minute and the rest of the time on the bench. I hope not though, 'my favorite player that never was' is flashing some promise.

Lenz is going to hit 4 hook shots.

Oh... and Kodiak is going to blow his timeouts for no good reason again. Anyone notice last night how he called a timeout 20 seconds before the media timeout? This has got to stop. Put an assistant on it to approve whether we can have a timeout or not.

That being said, the crowd will be a factor. The Utes will crack the BYU zone with ease and either Loveridge or Wright will have 20+ pts, 10+ boards, 8+ assists but not both. Tucker, Onwas or Taylor will have a career high and PVD will have one 3pointer that will get the locals riled up.

Utah wins 92-80.

[Two Utes]

Mika's rebounds per game is, surprisingly, a tad low. I was told that this guy was the second coming. He's very good. Not phenomenal

[#1 Utefan]

My favorite basketball sign of all time was one I saw two Utah students holding during a February game at the Huntsman Center back in the early 90's. The game was during the week SI released their annual swimsuit issue. If memory serves, there was an also an article in the same issue on BYU basketball and the Reid family.

Anyway, these guys had blonde colored mops or wigs on their heads (ala the wannabe So Cal surfer Reid boys) and had a sign that said "Randy & Robby: The two biggest boobs in the swimsuit issue" I think that one is worthy of your top 5 as well.

[USS Utah]

http://utefans.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13920&g2_serialNumber=2
This is my brother, on the floor at the Huntsman Center at the BYU game in 2004.

[Viking]

http://utefans.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13920&g2_serialNumber=2
This is my brother, on the floor at the Huntsman Center at the BYU game in 2004.


You, your brother...your entirely family...you may be the best people on planet earth.

But, that is low brow and frankly, gross.

[sancho]

But, that is low brow and frankly, gross.

No brow like the low brow.

[Viking]

No brow like the low brow.

"no brow like the low brow" = "no road like the low road" = "no trash like the white trash" = "no scum like the pond scum"

go cougs. beat the the utes.

[SoCalPat]

Oh... and Kodiak is going to blow his timeouts for no good reason again. Anyone notice last night how he called a timeout 20 seconds before the media timeout? This has got to stop. Put an assistant on it to approve whether we can have a timeout or not.

Swear to God, I really believe Larry forgets sometimes he's not in the NBA any more. I could live with this little dalliance when we were winning five games, but it hurt us badly in the Boise game. He's got to get this matter straightened out, stat.

[LA Ute]

You, your brother...your entirely family...you may be the best people on planet earth.

But, that is low brow and frankly, gross.

I did find it surprising.

There have been some pretty clever moments during the basketball rivalry. Once before a game at the Huntsman Center, the BYU band (I think) all sat down at once and began reading newspapers while the Utah team was introduced. Kind of disrespectful and not very good sportsmanship, but I admired it. Another time I watched a halftime performance of "The Title IXs" (anyone remember them?). Dallin Oaks was there as a guest of David Gardner, and he laughed uproariously.

[concerned]

You, your brother...your entirely family...you may be the best people on planet earth.

But, that is low brow and frankly, gross.

are you guys telling me that the t-shirt has nothing to do with cougars showing support for our former attorney general?

[LA Ute]

are you guys telling me that the t-shirt has nothing to do with cougars showing support for our former attorney general?

Just a hunch.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I did find it surprising.

There have been some pretty clever moments during the basketball rivalry. Once before a game at the Huntsman Center, the BYU band (I think) all sat down at once and began reading newspapers while the Utah team was introduced. Kind of disrespectful and not very good sportsmanship, but I admired it. Another time I watched a halftime performance of "The Title IXs" (anyone remember them?). Dallin Oaks was there as a guest of David Gardner, and he laughed uproariously.

lol. So the old newspaper gag is "disrespectful" and "not very good sportsmanship", but a t-shirt with a vulgar oral sex reference is just "surprising"? Classic LA Ute.

[LA Ute]

lol. So the old newspaper gag is "disrespectful" and "not very good sportsmanship", but a t-shirt with a vulgar oral sex reference is just "surprising"? Classic LA Ute.

Troll.

[UtahsMrSports]

Tyler Haws took a pretty hard fall last night on his head. He didn't play much afater that (though that certainly could have been due to the fact that Prairie View A&M is a team worthy of our schedule). Hopefully he is ok and 100% coming in to the game. I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

[U-Ute]

"no brow like the low brow" = "no road like the low road" = "no trash like the white trash" = "no scum like the pond scum"

go cougs. beat the the utes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2nM55ko_ys

[sancho]

Hopefully he is ok and 100% coming in to the game. I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

Well, you're saying all the things a classy fan is supposed to say in public. I'm not a classy fan, so I don't mind if Haws misses the game on Sat.

Outcomes in order of preference:

1) We beat BYU at full strength
2) Haws sits, and we beat them
3) Carlino and Collinsworth both get kissed for the first time, get mono, neither play, and we win
4) BYU gets in bus crash on way to SLC, all starters out with injury, we beat backups
5) BYU gets in bus crash on way to SLC, forfeits game
...
...
...
1,427) We lose game

[Jeff Lebowski]

Tyler Haws took a pretty hard fall last night on his head. He didn't play much afater that (though that certainly could have been due to the fact that Prairie View A&M is a team worthy of our schedule). Hopefully he is ok and 100% coming in to the game. I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

According to a tweet from Wrubell, Haws is OK.

[sancho]

According to a tweet from Wrubell, Haws is OK.

That means it's pretty much down to my #1 and my #1427 outcomes. May the best team win.

[UtahsMrSports]

well, you're saying all the things a classy fan is supposed to say in public. I'm not a classy fan, so i don't mind if haws misses the game on sat.

Outcomes in order of preference:

1) we beat byu at full strength
2) haws sits, and we beat them
3) carlino and collinsworth both get kissed for the first time, get mono, neither play, and we win
4) byu gets in bus crash on way to slc, all starters out with injury, we beat backups
5) byu gets in bus crash on way to slc, forfeits game
...
...
...
1,427) we lose game

lol!

[Brian]

Well, you're saying all the things a classy fan is supposed to say in public. I'm not a classy fan, so I don't mind if Haws misses the game on Sat.

Outcomes in order of preference:

1) We beat BYU at full strength
2) Haws sits, and we beat them
3) Carlino and Collinsworth both get kissed for the first time, get mono, neither play, and we win
4) BYU gets in bus crash on way to SLC, all starters out with injury, we beat backups
5) BYU gets in bus crash on way to SLC, forfeits game
...
...
...
1,427) We lose game

options 2 to 1426 would give our TDS second cousins a way to save face after the Kodiak mauling and somehow find a win in the loss.


Screw 'em and their feelings.
I hope Captain Forehead plays and they all get a nice mauling.

That being said, it's been a while so, I'll take a win anyway they can get it.

[Diehard Ute]

According to a tweet from Wrubell, Haws is OK.

That's impossible

[wally]

lol. So the old newspaper gag is "disrespectful" and "not very good sportsmanship", but a t-shirt with a vulgar oral sex reference is just "surprising"? Classic LA Ute.

It is surprising because the shirt guy evidently does not know that the honor code clearly prohibits swallowing, which renders his shirt not only vulgar, but irrelevant as well. LA is surprised by such irresponsible shirt fabrication, and rightly so.

[SeattleUte]

I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

This is nuts.

[sancho]

Not sure where this goes, so I'll put it in this week's game thread:

There is a one-day sale on Pac-12 tournament tickets today - $12 per person per session (there are apparently 6 sessions - $72 for the whole tournament):

http://pac-12.com/tickets

[USS Utah]

You, your brother...your entirely family...you may be the best people on planet earth.

But, that is low brow and frankly, gross.

It's not a shirt I would wear.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That means it's pretty much down to my #1 and my #1427 outcomes. May the best team win.

Pretty sure we will. But you never know.

[USS Utah]

lol. So the old newspaper gag is "disrespectful" and "not very good sportsmanship", but a t-shirt with a vulgar oral sex reference is just "surprising"? Classic LA Ute.

Doesn't everybody swallow?

Or do you take your food intravenously?

[Applejack]

This is nuts.

Agreed. Logical fail.

[U-Ute]

I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

I think someone else got hit it in head.

[UBlender]

Hopefully he is ok and 100% coming in to the game. I'd rather lose to BYU at full strength then beat them without Haws.

I'm sure he's fine and will play so it's a moot point. But injuries are part of the game and you should never feel bad about beating a shorthanded team. Did BYU (and everyone else) apologize last year for beating Utah without two projected starters (Foster and Dotson)? Have any of our football opponents been sorry about beating a Utah team that never seems to have its starting QB? In sports, you often lose when missing a key player and you often win when the opponent is missing a key player. It all evens out so nobody should have any regrets over that.

[UtahsMrSports]

All right, let me explain.

First and foremost, obviously I want to see us win this game, I want it really badly.

But at the same time, this game is not the end-all, be-all that will determine the fate of our coaches, players, etc. It is a great chance to see where we are in a preseason that has been nearly void of such opportunities. Beating BYU sans Haws is like beating Fresno. Yeah, we were supposed to. I would rather go up against them full strength regardless of outcome from that perspective. (Its a message board, sometimes it doesnt come across the way i intended, sue me.)

Now, all of that said, if their whole team gets cholera or typhoid fever or breaks their legs or they drown because coach rose stupidly decides to ford the river instead of caulking the wagon and floating it (or even takes the rare opportunity to pay $5 for a ferry) and we win by beating a team of walk ons, I will still party until 4 am over a win. I REALLY want to beat them!

[#1 Utefan]

I'll take a win either wayand don't care if Haws plays or not. Utah would have likely had enough to polish off BYU last year if Dotson and/or Foster were healthy so as a previous poster said, it all evens out. Bachynski apparently is still less than 100% which is why he hasn't been playing many minutes the past several games so injuries go both ways and are part of the game. Kovacevic still isn't ready to go yet either. I also think BYU is still a little better than Fresno even without Haws.

My guess is Haws plays Saturday whether he is 100% or not. Ditto for Bachynski. One thing I will guarantee, however, is that if Utah comes away with the win BYU fans will either blame it on the refs and/or speculation Haws was playing injured.

[SoCalPat]

But at the same time, this game is not the end-all, be-all that will determine the fate of our coaches, players, etc.

I think it behooves Larry to win this game. You're right when you say it's not the be-all and end-all -- with the talent we have coming in, how we played in Boise, how we finished last year, all signs are trending up. That said, Year 4 is shaping up to be an NCAA-or-bust year. It's also the penultimate year of Larry's contract. And we play in Provo next year. I don't think Larry needs to be the coach who can't beat BYU; his critics will (rightfully) use his 0-4 mark against them if we somehow don't do any better than the CBI (or worse?) the next two years.

There are two ways to fill the goodwill tank if you're a new coach who hasn't done enough to get extended -- (1.) win games no one expects you to win and (2.) to win the games in which you've got a realistic shot of winning AND there is a sizable reward for doing so.

We feel good about this year because of the four-game winning streak we had at the end of last year. On the flip side, our last such game under the latter description was the 2009 NCAA game against Arizona. (There are also must-win games for the opposite reason -- there is a sizable penalty for losing those games, with little reward for winning. Our last two years under Jimmy were riddled with those types of games and his goodwill tank emptied quickly as a result.)

So to say this isn't make-or-break for Larry, I kinda disagree. Saturday is the first true "must-win" game we've had with him as coach. Don't give me the crap about how there are 18 other games more important on the schedule; this isn't football where each game is weighed significantly more than they are in basketball. We're at home, we're a significantly better team from last year, we've got the best player on the floor and nearly 2.5 years in, it's high time to expect wins under favorable circumstances. If not now, then when?

There is no need for coddling the current staff, no place for excuses, no silver linings about how we're getting better. We cannot take our rightful spot in the state's pecking order in hoops without beating BYU. It's been too damn long since we beat them and I'm tired of losing to them.

[roseparkutes]

beat byu at full strength, beat byu at half strength, beat byu at no strength just beat byu! although id love to se the utes beat them badly at full strength, and quieting them morons on ccougarboard

[LA Ute]

Apologies if posted already:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30iiLRTgOHM&feature=youtu.be

[UTEopia]

Awesome video. I had not seen it before.

I fully expect the Utes to come out and play hard but I hope they are not over amped. They need to play hard and smart. No stupid fouls. Forty minutes is a long game. We need Wright, Loveridge and Taylor to stay out of foul trouble and play within themselves. Stop transition layups, get to the wings to defend the early 3 and then play tough D and rebound.

[FountainOfUte]

Apologies if posted already:


How could that video omit the dunk that got Bogut cheap-shot kicked in the back by Miles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Pla1UxTf8

[SoCalPat]

How could that video omit the dunk that got Bogut cheap-shot kicked in the back by Miles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Pla1UxTf8

We merely celebrate our accomplishments. We leave it to BYU to play the "classless and dirty" card.

[GarthUte]

We merely celebrate our accomplishments. We leave it to BYU to play the "classless and dirty" card.

:highfive:

[LA Ute]

Pretty good start here....

[GarthUte]

A great start to the game. Keep it up guys.

[LA Ute]

If the refs allow that kind of contact that's good for us. Surprised.

[Brian]

Wow, looking good!

[DrumNFeather]

It's clear that part of the game plan here is to test Mika's toughness.

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[LA Ute]

Getting a little sloppy with the ball. Gotta settle down a little.

[DrumNFeather]

Falling in love with the three here and taking some bad shots.

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[DrumNFeather]

Need to have a solid first 5 min to start the second half.

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[Jarid in Cedar]

Need to have a solid first 5 min to start the second half.

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We need to stretch the lead out of the half. I hope we work it inside a little more. We fell in love with the outside shot and went cold for a stretch. Our bench kicks their benches ass.

[LA Ute]

We might see Wright driving more this half...?

[GarthUte]

Way too many 3 point shots. If they step in and take a mid-range jumper or go to the rim for a layup, the Utes most likely would be up 20 at the half.

Utah needs to open the 2nd half as it did the 1st and take BYU out of the game in the first 5 minutes.

Way too many zoobs at the game tonight.

[LA Ute]

Nice to see Wright hit from outside. If he can do that consistently he'll be deadly all over the court.

[LA Ute]

I'm enjoying this. A lot.

[LA Ute]

Way too many zoobs at the game tonight.

Presumably they're pretty quiet at the moment.

[SoCalPat]

Bury them!

[LA Ute]

Bury them!

Yes, let's make a statement, not just get a win.

[LA Ute]

I'm not sold on Onwas's basketball IQ.

[DrumNFeather]

That is as bad as the Boise ejection.

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[LA Ute]

I don't like the new flagrant foul rule.

[UtahDan]

What a reality check for BYU fans. Their team was just completely overmatched. But you have to respect Rose. He had his guys playing hard to the end. I had heard that Haws was good. Either I heard wrong or he is just mentally weak. Seemed like the BYU team suffers from that classic BYU psychology where they are great front runners with a lead but don't know how to act when someone hits them in the mouth.


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[LA Ute]

What a reality check for BYU fans. Their team was just completely overmatched. But you have to respect Rose. He had his guys playing hard to the end. I had heard that Haws was good. Either I heard wrong or he is just mentally weak. Seemed like the BYU team suffers from that classic BYU psychology where they are great front runners with a lead but don't know how to act when someone hits them in the mouth.


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Did you notice the difference in speed and quickness? It's remarkable.

[LA Ute]

Love the student chant: "Just like football!"

[UtahDan]

Did you notice the difference in speed and quickness? It's remarkable.

I was just going to comment on that. That is really what killed them. Tough defense and just having no way to cope athletically.


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[Mormon Red Death]

What a reality check for BYU fans. Their team was just completely overmatched. But you have to respect Rose. He had his guys playing hard to the end. I had heard that Haws was good. Either I heard wrong or he is just mentally weak. Seemed like the BYU team suffers from that classic BYU psychology where they are great front runners with a lead but don't know how to act when someone hits them in the mouth.


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We are throwing more athletic players in him (onwas and Tucker). They are doing him

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[LA Ute]

Now it's garbage time.

[UtahDan]

Now it's garbage time.

It's cute how they are still pressing us.


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[LA Ute]

Now that there was a STATEMENT. I daresay a new era has begun. Can I get an amen??

[USS Utah]

Back baby, Utah Basketball is back!

[Brian]

Amen and amen.
I like me some Kodiak.

[Applejack]

Someone said that we took too many 3s. I totally disagree. With Wright and Taylor playing together, we should be taking buckets of corner 3s (Takari, Van Dyke, Ogbe). The backbreaking section of this game was midway thru the first half after our effort run BYU was starting to get to the line and slow us down. Wright had about 3 or 4 straight plays where he drove, kicked to Loveridge or Taylor who then swung into the corner for dagger 3s. Those are WAY better shots than a pull-up 2.

Great win. Lots of work to do, but this is a legitimate win against a good opponent. It was also BYU. In four years, let's retire JLo's jersey simply for signing with Utah.

[Mormon Red Death]

Wright didn't even have That good of a game and we blow them out. Definitely take that

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[Brian]

I haven't had time watch many games this year, but I really like the progress. Game ball goes to dallin. He was a banger inside.

[UtahDan]

Wright didn't even have That good of a game and we blow them out. Definitely take that

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It's an important step to have games where you don't play your best but still give a great defensive effort and win anyway.


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[U-Ute]

I think that the size and length of Onwas, Tucker, and especially Wright, is going to give BYU guards fits.

Swish!


BYU doesn't have an answer for JLove.

Swish!


The problem area is going to be inside. Lenz has been playing well, but I don't think we have a real solid post presence and Mika is a handful. This is a game where we could really use Kovacevic.

Bachynski played fantastic. I didn't know if he had it in him - especially for 2 games in a row. Mika was getting visibly more and more frustrated. With his reaction to JLove's foul, you could see the fuse had been lit and it was only a matter of time. That flagrant 2 was a bit weak, but so was the one on Onwas in Boise. I guess that's just how they are calling them this year.

Big kudos to Bachynski!


I see Utah making this a statement in this game. Feeding on bottom dwellers isn't very satisfying. They are ready for a break out game.

The most satisfying swish of this thread.

[GarthUte]

That was fun.

I don't know if I'm ready to say a new era has begun, but I do like that the team believes in K's system. If the team gets to the NIT this year, I'll be ready to call it a new era.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Excellent game. We have a bunch of weapons; guys who can step in and make plays. Taylor had a tough game but, Tucker,PVD, et al picked him up. The balance was the difference.

[U-Ute]

SWright had about 3 or 4 straight plays where he drove, kicked to Loveridge or Taylor who then swung into the corner for dagger 3s. Those are WAY better shots than a pull-up 2.

His court vision is incredible. I had a couple of those that you mention where I had to rewind to figure out how the hell he saw the guy.

[U-Ute]

Now that there was a STATEMENT. I daresay a new era has begun. Can I get an amen??

980

[GarthUte]

Someone said that we took too many 3s. I totally disagree. With Wright and Taylor playing together, we should be taking buckets of corner 3s (Takari, Van Dyke, Ogbe). The backbreaking section of this game was midway thru the first half after our effort run BYU was starting to get to the line and slow us down. Wright had about 3 or 4 straight plays where he drove, kicked to Loveridge or Taylor who then swung into the corner for dagger 3s. Those are WAY better shots than a pull-up 2.

Great win. Lots of work to do, but this is a legitimate win against a good opponent. It was also BYU. In four years, let's retire JLo's jersey simply for signing with Utah.

I'm the one who said Utah took too many threes and I stand by my comment, because it was in the 1st half. The team started off great, but cooled off behind the line and they kept shooting. A pull up 2 that goes in is always better than a missed 3 point shot. Always.

At the end of the game, it all worked out, which is really all that matters. I'm happy about the win.

[U-Ute]

The thing you can say about this team is how disciplined they are on offense. It reminds me of the Majerus teams. It can be summed up in one slogan: Right guy. Right shot. Right time.

[GarthUte]

I haven't had time watch many games this year, but I really like the progress. Game ball goes to dallin. He was a banger inside.

Bachinsky was terrific. He got in what's-his-name's head which led to the ticky-tack flagrant 2.

[Mormon Red Death]

Wright didn't even have That good of a game and we blow them out. Definitely take that

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Still had 16 point 7 rebounds 6 assists

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[Applejack]

I'm the one who said Utah took too many threes and I stand by my comment, because it was in the 1st half. The team started off great, but cooled off behind the line and they kept shooting. A pull up 2 that goes in is always better than a missed 3 point shot. Always.

At the end of the game, it all worked out, which is really all that matters. I'm happy about the win.

Teams are generally moving away from taking long 2s. They are just bad shots, percentage wise. 3s and layups, that's the formula for success. And with essentially two point guards on the floor at all times, Utah can dial that formula up.

[Scorcho]

Amen, did expect that.

[Senioritis]

Taffy town!!!!!

[hostile]

Man, that was fun. My boys and I sat in GA and let the girls have the good season tickets. It was loud from start to finish-lots of energy. Nice to see us come out and punch them in the mouth. As Iron Mike said, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." Guys knew how to get the ball to the open spots in the zone. Tough inside and great transition D. Mika is a good player and Bacynolsen really got in his head and tested his physical and mental toughness.

[GarthUte]

Teams are generally moving away from taking long 2s. They are just bad shots, percentage wise. 3s and layups, that's the formula for success. And with essentially two point guards on the floor at all times, Utah can dial that formula up.

I agree the trend is going that way, though I'll always say that an uncontested mid-range jumper is a higher percentage shot than an uncontested 3 point shot, for the simple reason that it's closer to the hoop. But then, I'm an old-school kind of hoops fan. I love down screens and jump shots the way Majerus' teams used to play.

[LA Ute]

So is this Kodiak's signature win so far at the U?

[GarthUte]

So is this Kodiak's signature win so far at the U?

I would say yes. It's the only one against a good team I can think of that from the opening tip to the final buzzer that the Utes have dominated since he's been the coach.

[LA Ute]

981

[UtahsMrSports]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[SeattleUte]

I take little satisfaction in this game, it's the minimum we should expect. Now let's go take our natural place alongside Arizona and UCLA in the Pac 12. What we saw tonight is Utah is just better. Better players and better coaches. (I wouldn't say it if I didn't bilieve it, believe me.) Utah can vary its offesive game and it plays defense. I felt there was a chance the Utes could come out tight, get off to a bad start and just psyche themselves out, and that this was BYU's only hope. But I've felt Utah would have the two best players on the floor with Loveridge and Wright, and that seemed to be proven tonight. Good thing for BYU that Taylor had an off night, or Utah would have won by 35. You all know I love Taylor. Everyone here said that the way to neutralize Haws was to get physical with him, prevent his threes and make him create his own shots, which he can't do. Well, that seems to be true. The book on Carlino is defend the 3 and get back and prevent him form scoring on the break. Carlino was terrible but it's not like he's often great. It seems that Collinsworth is indeed the best player on BYU's team as everyone has said here, but he's basically a very solid role player and the only defensive factor on BYU's team. However, Utah seemed vulnerable in the middle but I felt that with greater experience and maturity Utah's three headed monster would take the measure of Mika, which is what happened.

These games really don't involve home fields or home courts as the teams don't have to travel far, change time zonses, they sleep in their own beds and have plenty of fan support at the game. No doubt the Huntsman Center is familiar to the Lone Peak guys. I don't see why we wouldn't see basically a repeat if the teams played in Provo. I hope this is a quality win, but I doubt it is. BYU hasn't beaten a ranked team in eons and I don't expect it will happen this season. As in football, BYU has a limited but deep and loyal recruiting base. BYU's basketball program is just like its football.

[chrisrenrut]

A pull up 2 that goes in is always better than a missed 3 point shot. Always.

At the end of the game, it all worked out, which is really all that matters. I'm happy about the win.

Of course. But a wide open 3 is usually better than a contested 2. Usually depending on the player involved. We did enough of the draw and kick that I have to believe coach was telling them to do it. I was yelling for the team to attack more too. I would have liked to have seen us to attack the rim more and make the ref's make calls. The flagrant foul on Mika was only his 2nd foul of the game.

Sometimes, you have to take what the othe team is giving you, and anytime we tried to penetrate, it seemed all 5 defenders would collapse into the paint.

[chrisrenrut]

So is this Kodiak's signature win so far at the U?

I still think the win against Oregon in the PAC-12 tournament was a bigger win.

Edit- I meant Cal

[Diehard Ute]

Larry said on the post game they changed our defensive match ups at the last minute.

They decided Wright should be on Carlino because of his length as they felt that would bother him. They also decide Taylor would be able to "get down, on Haws and get more physical with him as well as through the screens and that would disrupt him.

I love hearing good coaching talk.

(Bill Riley also mentioned that he was at the shoot around today. He saw no offense coached, only defense)

[GarthUte]

Of course. But a wide open 3 is usually better than a contested 2. Usually depending on the player involved. We did enough of the draw and kick that I have to believe coach was telling them to do it. I was yelling for the team to attack more too. I would have liked to have seen us to attack the rim more and make the ref's make calls. The flagrant foul on Mika was only his 2nd foul of the game.

Sometimes, you have to take what the othe team is giving you, and anytime we tried to penetrate, it seemed all 5 defenders would collapse into the paint.

I can agree with all you've said here. But as I mentioned to A-Jack, I'm a fan of the old school style of basketball. I suppose it's ingrained in my head that mid-range jumpshots are better because back when I was in high school, there was no such thing as a 3 pt. shot, so a long-range 2 point shot was never encouraged. And the 3 pt. shot wasn't ever really encouraged until a number of years after it was implemented.

[chrisrenrut]

These games really don't involve home fields or home courts as the teams don't have to travel far, change time zonses, they sleep in their own beds and have plenty of fan support at the game. No doubt the Huntsman Center is familiar to the Lone Peak guys. I don't see why we wouldn't see basically a repeat if the teams played in Provo.

I have to disagree with you here. I was thinking about this on the way home. The Hunty was rockin tonight. Dave Rose said on his post game show that a couple of players were clearly rattled by the atmosphere. I have to think the atmosphere at their place would have had a similar effect on some of our younger players.

I sat directly below the sections with the largest amount of BYU fans (EE and FF), and I barely heard them.

[chrisrenrut]

I can agree with all you've said here. But as I mentioned to A-Jack, I'm a fan of the old school style of basketball. I suppose it's ingrained in my head that mid-range jumpshots are better because back when I was in high school, there was no such thing as a 3 pt. shot, so a long-range 2 point shot was never encouraged. And the 3 pt. shot wasn't ever really encouraged until a number of years after it was implemented.

Yeah, and I saw your clarification of comparing the 2 if they a both uncontested. The problem tonight is that the 2 point shots were rarely uncontested because of their collapsing in the key.

BTW, I can't think of very many uncontested shots, 2 or 3, that we let BYU have tonight at all. The more I think about it, this game was won by Utah's defense. The big difference pointed out by Rose in his post game show was the shooting percentages. They were around 30%, and I have to think that Majerus is smiling somewhere in the big Italian restaurant in the sky.

[SoCalPat]

I still think the win against Oregon in the PAC-12 tournament was a bigger win.

I've seen this sentiment expressed elsewhere, and I disagree. Oregon last year was a reward for the many close losses and validated what we'd been doing. At the same time, it wasn't going to change our end fate; ie, no postseason tournament. Maybe if we squeak out a win, I could buy what you're selling with Oregon, but a blowout win like today can help set the tone for an entire season. Let's see where we're at 8-10 games from now.

[LA Ute]

I still think the win against Oregon in the PAC-12 tournament was a bigger win.

That is my other candidate. I think it's a tough call. In any case this win was a statement of its own that Utah is king of the hill in the state once again. That's always a good thing.

[SoCalPat]

I can agree with all you've said here. But as I mentioned to A-Jack, I'm a fan of the old school style of basketball. I suppose it's ingrained in my head that mid-range jumpshots are better because back when I was in high school, there was no such thing as a 3 pt. shot, so a long-range 2 point shot was never encouraged. And the 3 pt. shot wasn't ever really encouraged until a number of years after it was implemented.

Corner 3s are death to zones. It's the toughest shot to defend because it requires your baseline players to help against wings that drive, while also hustling to get back to defend the shooter. It's a much better shot than any mid-range 2 we get against BYU's zone, which is pretty easily defended because a player is usually nearby to contest it.

Wichita State took a lot of gas out of BYU's sails by emphasizing the corner 3. Although I didn't see the game, I suspect from AJ's account that we did the same thing tonight.

[chrisrenrut]

Some additional thoughts while still basking in the glow of this win:

i was was impressed by the crowd. Not a sell-out, but probably about 14,000. And 90% or more were Utah fans. This may be the game that energizes the more casual fans to start coming back. The Oregon game on Jan 1st should be a good measuring stick.

We were lucky enough to score front row tickets behind the basket. It's a completely different game from that close. It is amazing that there aren't more injuries. The physical play down low is unbelievable, with all these giant men trying to occupy the same spec while jumping and running.

Our big men played great, but it's a good thing we had 3 competent big men to offset Mika. That guy is really good. I'm thinking (hoping) we don't see him for 4 years at BYU because he'll leave early in the draft. And it will be a good decision for him, unlike it was for Peanut-head.

Someone mentioned that Taylor didn't have a good game. I think he played very well, and did the little things that don't show up on the stat sheet. I kind of think he may have been asked to focus on defense this game a little more, and he ended up guarding Haws a lot.

I really don't like the new flagrant foul rules. I didn't get the benefit of seeing the replay much, but I thought the ejection was silly, much like ours in the Boise game.

[chrisrenrut]

I've seen this sentiment expressed elsewhere, and I disagree. Oregon last year was a reward for the many close losses and validated what we'd been doing. At the same time, it wasn't going to change our end fate; ie, no postseason tournament. Maybe if we squeak out a win, I could buy what you're selling with Oregon, but a blowout win like today can help set the tone for an entire season. Let's see where we're at 8-10 games from now.

I agree, time will tell. I like to think the Oregon win may have helped with some our recruiting success this offseason as well. It may have also given this team some confidence to carry over into this year. Given our patsy non-con schedule, I think building confidence is big on coaches priority list. This game should take the burgeoning confidence to a new level.

[SoCalPat]

We're not back yet. Not to being back to where we want to be. I'll only believe that once we make the tournament. The last time I said Utah hoops was back came after we beat Cal on the road in Boylen's first year. We then went out and lost four of five (three MWC games and Gonzaga) by a total of like 12 points. So I'm averse to using that phrase.

But that doesn't mean we can't adjust our expectations. Screw the NIT or just being happy with the postseason. This team should be thinking bigger and it's not criminal for us to believe in something bigger.

There's a long conference season ahead and a lot of things can change (we saw that in football and that's all I'm gonna say about that). But if we consistently defend homecourt like we did tonight, we can muscle our way into the bubble conversation. We were probably better against BYU tonight than Wichita State was, and that was a team that made the Final Four the year AFTER they were a darkhorse Final Four team. Sometimes, teams arrive a year early. It's time to embrace that thought with this year's Utes.

[SeattleUte]

I still think the win against Oregon in the PAC-12 tournament was a bigger win.

:confused: We didn't beat Oregon in the pac 12 tournament.

This was an important win in a must win kind of a way even though it was'n suprising or really a great achievement except that it was loathsome BYU that we beat. Please don't call it a "signature win". This year we're going to play multiple ranked teams including the current no. 1 ranked team twice. As in football we may be in the best overall conference in America, and a couple of months from now this game will be a distant memory. BYU has played a decent pre-season schedule but its "signature win" is against probably the 8-10th team in the Pac 12.

I think all around the win over Oregon that deprived them of the Pac 12 title and the win over Cal that put us in Pac 12 final four were bigger wins. The win at Washington was a big road win in the pac 12 (our first road win in the Pac 12?) in which the Huskies were big favorites and Taylor and the coaches discovered his game. These were far bigger wins than tonight's game and I truly hope we have bigger wins than any of these this season.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I agree with SCP that this win doesn't mean as much if we lay an egg in conference. But, this win will get more fans off the fence and to the games. This has been a valuable week for Kodiak and the Utes. If we had dropped the Fresno.game, the bandwagon would have emptied (again), and beating BYU convincingly at home will get more people on board.

[LA Ute]

Just watched the end of the replay of the North Carolina game in the '98 Final Four. What a great team. No reason why we can't be flirting with success like that again in the not-too-distant future.

[Utebiquitous]

Seattle and SoCal,
May I join you both in great expectations for our Utes this year and beyond. This win comes as no surprise to me. I didn't expect it to be comfortable but I expected it. We are better and we are deeper - much deeper - than the Cougs. I expect a .500 season in Pac-12 play and hope that, like SoCal said, we've arrived a year early. The NIT feels a little low from an expectation standpoint given the pieces emerging on this team around Wright and Loveridge. Bachyniski deserves some real praise tonight. I know the coaches have been very pleased with his effort in practice over the last few weeks after doubting he was going to contribute much. Let's hope it continues.

By the way, I loved seeing the team execute what coaches taught in practice. A lot of emphasis was put on taking a particular angle on Carlino's threes to throw him off and then to immediately get into him and box him out. The Y - Carlino included - got some big 2nd shots last year after threes caromed off the board deep. I loved watching whomever was on Carlino erase him from the play as he hoisted three after three. Offensively,they worked specifically on Wright and others penetrating and looking for the corner three. GarthUte, I'm with you on two-point jumpers and always will be; but watching this team do what coaches ask hearkens back to Majerus. Very appropriate on the one-year anniversary of his death.

I'm not going to say it was signature LA but it feels good. I will expect the same next year in Provo. Now let's get ready to sweep the Oregon's in a couple of weeks and pick up some great momentum as the Pac-12 season begins.
'biq

[SoCalPat]

Seattle and SoCal,
May I join you both in great expectations for our Utes this year and beyond. This win comes as no surprise to me. I didn't expect it to be comfortable but I expected it. We are better and we are deeper - much deeper - than the Cougs. I expect a .500 season in Pac-12 play and hope that, like SoCal said, we've arrived a year early. The NIT feels a little low from an expectation standpoint given the pieces emerging on this team around Wright and Loveridge. Bachyniski deserves some real praise tonight. I know the coaches have been very pleased with his effort in practice over the last few weeks after doubting he was going to contribute much. Let's hope it continues.

It would be criminal to only be able to showcase Delon to the country in just one NCAA Tournament.

[SeattleUte]

Seattle and SoCal,
May I join you both in great expectations for our Utes this year and beyond. This win comes as no surprise to me. I didn't expect it to be comfortable but I expected it. We are better and we are deeper - much deeper - than the Cougs. I expect a .500 season in Pac-12 play and hope that, like SoCal said, we've arrived a year early. The NIT feels a little low from an expectation standpoint given the pieces emerging on this team around Wright and Loveridge. Bachyniski deserves some real praise tonight. I know the coaches have been very pleased with his effort in practice over the last few weeks after doubting he was going to contribute much. Let's hope it continues.

By the way, I loved seeing the team execute what coaches taught in practice. A lot of emphasis was put on taking a particular angle on Carlino's threes to throw him off and then to immediately get into him and box him out. The Y - Carlino included - got some big 2nd shots last year after threes caromed off the board deep. I loved watching whomever was on Carlino erase him from the play as he hoisted three after three. Offensively,they worked specifically on Wright and others penetrating and looking for the corner three. GarthUte, I'm with you on two-point jumpers and always will be; but watching this team do what coaches ask hearkens back to Majerus. Very appropriate on the one-year anniversary of his death.

I'm not going to say it was signature LA but it feels good. I will expect the same next year in Provo. Now let's get ready to sweep the Oregon's in a couple of weeks and pick up some great momentum as the Pac-12 season begins.
'biq

GREAT POST. I think this is exactly right.

I remember sitting behind our bench in Seattle last year. I loved watching our coaches and how the players responded. Tons of intensity and intelligence.

[Diehard Ute]

On the post game Larry discussed how he wasn't worried about the team getting too full of themselves.

He said the show up. Work hard and are easily coached. It shows on the floor.

[USS Utah]

So is this Kodiak's signature win so far at the U?

Oregon last year?

Cal in the P12 tourney?

[hostile]

SU, someone from BYU agrees with you about the best 2 players in the state.

http://www.deseretnews.com/top/2138/1/UTAH-GUARDS-BYU-Utah-basketball-report-card-Utes-show-Cougs-some-Loveridge-in-dominant.html

[Scratch]

One of the most interesting aspects of this game was that, even with the blowout, only two guys (Olsen and Bach) gave us more than we could have reasonably expected on the offensive end, and they combined to only play 32 minutes. Everyone else pretty much played at or below their established/expected level. In other words, despite only having 32 minutes (one starter's worth) of greater-than-expected offensive production, we still put up over 80 points and dominated for 40 minutes.

[USS Utah]

I really don't like the new flagrant foul rules. I didn't get the benefit of seeing the replay much, but I thought the ejection was silly, much like ours in the Boise game.

I saw multiple replays, he wasn't going for the ball but for the shooter, nothing ticky-tack about it.

[Scratch]

I saw multiple replays, he wasn't going for the ball, but for the shooter, nothing ticky-tack about it.

Yeah, it was interesting, because it wasn't particularly hard so it didn't feel flagrant, but he was clearly going for the player and not the ball.

[Diehard Ute]

Yeah, it was interesting, because it wasn't particularly hard so it didn't feel flagrant, but he was clearly going for the player and not the ball.

And Rose clarified after the game he did hit Dalin in the face, which under the new rule makes it an automatic ejection

[Scratch]

One more thought, I feel a little bad for Renan Lenz. He's put in a lot of work and has improved by leaps and bounds, but he's pretty clearly the third-best center on this team. It will be interesting to see if there are situations when he'll see time alongside Bach or Olsen in P12 play based on matchups. I'm also starting to wonder if Kovacevic ever makes it off the bench this year.

[USS Utah]

But that doesn't mean we can't adjust our expectations. Screw the NIT or just being happy with the postseason. This team should be thinking bigger and it's not criminal for us to believe in something bigger.

I would be careful about adjusting expectations based on one win -- that would seem to be the lesson of the Stanford win in football.

[Viking]

Congrats on the win, Utes.

BYU are a bunch of coddled pansies that wouldn't get into the NIT the way they play any sort of big game right now. It seems Bronco is now our basketball coach, too, as we can't seem to beat solid teams with any consistency.

BYU is such a waste of time and the programs are in a tailspin yet no Cougar wants yo admit it.

In 1993, if you told any of the strident contingent on CUF ("we beat ourselves") that BYU would be in some no name conference such as the WCC in hoops and not have a conference in football, and play the likes of Idaho State in November, the response would have been justified disbelief. Add to it that Utah would be in the PAC.

Yet, this is the state of affairs. BYU has been completely mismanaged into near total irrelevance.

I would take a no win season as a full rights member of the PAC over this flaming heap of dogshit, AKA, BYU athletics.

[LA Ute]

Bill Riley called this Larry's signature win so far, but I don't think so. It is a great win and significant because of what it means in the state of Utah, where we need credibility to be able to recruit. We also got the monkey off our backs after losing every game to them for almost 5 years. But nationally, BYU is seen as a good solid program that does well in the regular season but because of its lack of athleticism never does well in the Dance. (One Sweet Sixteen in 31 years.) SU's right, we should beat them regularly like we do in football, and this game should be the beginning of our doing so in the PAC-12 era.

But still. A blowout, statement win like this against this particular rival is awfully good for the program and for the players' confidence. Kodiak said last night post-game that this is not a team with players who get big heads and that is one thing he loves about this bunch.

So not a signature win but one heck of a nice one!

[U-Ute]

Wichita State took a lot of gas out of BYU's sails by emphasizing the corner 3. Although I didn't see the game, I suspect from AJ's account that we did the same thing tonight.

The Utes have been really good at the draw/kick into the corner for 3 so far this year. I felt like it was a continuation of what we have been seeing recently.


There's a long conference season ahead and a lot of things can change (we saw that in football and that's all I'm gonna say about that). But if we consistently defend homecourt like we did tonight, we can muscle our way into the bubble conversation. We were probably better against BYU tonight than Wichita State was, and that was a team that made the Final Four the year AFTER they were a darkhorse Final Four team. Sometimes, teams arrive a year early. It's time to embrace that thought with this year's Utes.

I agree with this. I was guessing that a real opponent, and a rival to boot, would bring out the best in this team, and it did. It was, by far, our best game of the year. But we still have to learn to bring that kind of energy/intensity game in and game out. But, if we do, I think we have a chance to win a lot of games at home this year and have close to a .500 conference record.


One of the most interesting aspects of this game was that, even with the blowout, only two guys (Olsen and Bach) gave us more than we could have reasonably expected on the offensive end, and they combined to only play 32 minutes. Everyone else pretty much played at or below their established/expected level. In other words, despite only having 32 minutes (one starter's worth) of greater-than-expected offensive production, we still put up over 80 points and dominated for 40 minutes.

I felt that, offensively, this team played about as well as they have been playing. The biggest difference was on the defensive end and, especially, in their rebounding. This team brought an energy and intensity on those areas that I haven't seen yet this year. This is the aspect of their game they have to be consistent in if they want to win in conference.


One more thought, I feel a little bad for Renan Lenz. He's put in a lot of work and has improved by leaps and bounds, but he's pretty clearly the third-best center on this team. It will be interesting to see if there are situations when he'll see time alongside Bach or Olsen in P12 play based on matchups. I'm also starting to wonder if Kovacevic ever makes it off the bench this year.

I feel that this is a bit unfair to Lenz. First of all, he's not really a 5. He's more of a stretch-4, and the last two games have really required a more physical inside presence.

As a side note, this is representative of something I'm seeing this year in K that I really like: he is playing the matchups. His rotation isn't baked in like some sort of cake recipe. He is adjusting his rotation to fill defensive holes and create favorable offensive matchups. Granted, it is probably the first time he has had enough tools to do this.

[sancho]

I don't care whether or not we call it a signature win. It was a great, big Christmas present, and it's got us all as optimistic as we've been in a while.

So glad I have the Pac-12 network. I get to see pretty much every game this year, and I'm really looking forward to that.

So...we had the best two players on the floor tonight. Will that happen against anyone in conference play? How many times will we have the best player on the floor? Would someone who knows the conference like to tally it up for me?

[OrangeUte]

I watched the game with some byu friends last night. I was impressed how we took the steam out of them early on and never let up. The defense against Mika was solid and I think the player of the game was Bachynski for coming in and playing better than anyone imagined. We were actually as good or better with him on the court than with him off it.

Loveridge played huge last night.

When we went cold toward the end of the first half, we kept playing patiently within the offensive game plan, and didn't force shots or make bad passes trying to make plays happen. That helped transition back into a groove later in the first half and to begin the second half.

This team could be very special. Having 2 centers play the way they did was terrific. We need to keep them rotating in like that as a 1-2 punch inside. I was very impressed.

Mika is no slouch. Very good post player. He's learning to be physical with D1 athletes and I believe that having to deal with both centers on and off all night was a good plan. Also, manning close up to Carlino was very smart.

Great coaching effort.

Excellent win.

[U-Ute]

Lost in this may have been the play of Van Dyke.

He has struggled shooting the ball so far this year, but he hit two huge corner threes when the offense was struggling in the first half.

It bodes well for the health of the future of the program that we can have a freshman come in and contribute like that.

[UTEopia]

I would be careful about adjusting expectations based on one win -- that would seem to be the lesson of the Stanford win in football.

This ^^^^^^^

[Viking]

I've made a decision. Half my family are Utes (the Kingsburys) and the other half, Cougars.

I can't bring myself to cheer for Utah football but I loved Majerus and have decided I'm so sick of BYU's insistence on mediocrity, I am now a Utah basketball fan.

[UTEopia]

Ute recipe for success:
win or even on boards: 45/44
win or even on turnovers: 10/10
limit transition and find the shooters: 6 fastbreak points; 5 of 19 on 3's
45 or more from Loveridge, Wright, Tucker: 45
15/10 or more from Lenz/Olsen/Bach: 20/14
75% or better from FT: 78.3
Score more points: 81-64

The only area where the Utes were beaten were offensive rebounds 15/11 and second chance points 13/9. BYU's 54% from free throws did not help them. A normal percentage would have made it a closer game and it would have been interesting to see how the Utes would have reacted with an 8 point lead instead of a 20 point lead in the last 5 minutes, but it was a great win and a fun atmosphere.

[LA Ute]

Ute recipe for success:
win or even on boards: 45/44
win or even on turnovers: 10/10
limit transition and find the shooters: 6 fastbreak points; 5 of 19 on 3's
45 or more from Loveridge, Wright, Tucker: 45
15/10 or more from Lenz/Olsen/Bach: 20/14
75% or better from FT: 78.3
Score more points: 81-64

The only area where the Utes were beaten were offensive rebounds 15/11 and second chance points 13/9. BYU's 54% from free throws did not help them. A normal percentage would have made it a closer game and it would have been interesting to see how the Utes would have reacted with an 8 point lead instead of a 20 point lead in the last 5 minutes, but it was a great win and a fun atmosphere.

Kodiak said post-game that Utah dropped 4 back after almost every Utah shot, to stop the transition. So that accounts for the offensive rebounds deficit. I think you're right about second-chance points for BYU. I think boxing out is one thing the Utes still need to work on.

[Two Utes]

Congrats on the win, Utes.

BYU are a bunch of coddled pansies that wouldn't get into the NIT the way they play any sort of big game right now. It seems Bronco is now our basketball coach, too, as we can't seem to beat solid teams with any consistency.

BYU is such a waste of time and the programs are in a tailspin yet no Cougar wants yo admit it.

In 1993, if you told any of the strident contingent on CUF ("we beat ourselves") that BYU would be in some no name conference such as the WCC in hoops and not have a conference in football, and play the likes of Idaho State in November, the response would have been justified disbelief. Add to it that Utah would be in the PAC.

Yet, this is the state of affairs. BYU has been completely mismanaged into near total irrelevance.

I would take a no win season as a full rights member of the PAC over this flaming heap of dogshit, AKA, BYU athletics.

Sit Carlino. Play a little slower. You guys will be decent.

[Two Utes]

I've made a decision. Half my family are Utes (the Kingsburys) and the other have, Cougars.

I can't bring myself to cheer for Utah football but I loved Majerus and have decided I'm so sick of BYU's insistence on mediocrity, I am now a Utah basketball fan.

BYU starts four top 100 recruits. Mika was highly rated. Collinsworth was offered by Kansas. Haws played on the World University Games national team this summer. Carlino found a high school coach in Arizona who let him shoot every time he touched the ball so that he could average 30 points a game.

In what world is it ok to let a 28% percent shooter throw up that many threes--especially way early in the shot clock? His assist to turnover ratio is extremely pedestrian and he's a defensive liability. That's on the great Coach Rose. Rose has done some great things, but Carlino is not going to be the second coming of Jimmer and it's time to put an end to his nonsense.

BYU has no depth in the front court. They have a true Frosh in Mika as their best big. Austin is soft and skinny and there is absolutely no one behind them. Collinsworth is leading the team in rebounds (edit-actually, I think he is second).

BYU could be OK this year. But they need to change some things. Collinsworth is going to get better as the season progresses. (he's only been back from his miss for a short while). You wonder if Haws is hurt or if he has peaked. Having Davies gave him a ton more space to work on ohfense.

This is obviously the best win of the season for the Utes. I agree that this is the signature blowout win Kodiak needs to take the next step with this program. The Ute program is clearly on an upward trajectory.

[UtahDan]

Since it's been talked about a bunch I went back and looked at the foul by Mika to see whether the flagrant 2 was the right call. For anyone who recorded this, starting watching around 8:20 in the second half.

What happens is Bach goes up with the ball in his right hand and Mika makes a play from Bach's left side, slightly to the front of him. He comes down with both arms, neither of which are anywhere near the ball because he is too far away from it to reach it. Mika's right hand comes down and grazes Bach's face. Some people said it was a bloody nose, but if you watch the replay after it is actually a scratch to the right of his nose as you look at him (his left) that they are treating on the sideline. Mika's right hand and forearm then come down on Bach's left shoulder and upper arm pushing downward, and continue to follow through until he falls. The left hand, which is also coming down in the same pushing motion catches Bach just below the elbow on the meat of his left forearm, just as Mika's right arm is disengaging from the shoulder area, and gives an additional push toward the ground. This has a particular effect because Bach's left arm is still flexed to a 90 degree angle and taught. The push on the forearm with the left hand happens second in time, is well after Bach is falling, is around waist level and negates it just being a hard initial hit that he pulls back from or at least doesn't follow through with. It's all one motion, but rather than just being a hit, there is a very clear follow through with both arms which goes from Bach's face, all the way down his arm to the forearm and only stops when Bach falls completely down and contact is lost. That's the nano-second by nano-second.

But the big picture issue, which you don't need slow mo to see, is what announcers immediately call a "grab and pull to the ground". That is, Mika follows through with his push with both hands all the way to the floor. That follow through is an attempt not just to commit a hard foul, but to put the other guy on the ground. It happens fast and I'm not saying he was trying to hurt him or thought it out in advance or anything like that, but it seems very clear to me that the natural and probable consequence of coming down and following through with a downward push with both hands, all the way until your hands reach your sides, is that the other player is going to in fact be pushed to the ground. In the law we say that a person intends the natural and probable consequences of his actions, in other words, its hard to escape that Mika is trying to push him to the ground.

Here are the standards from the rule book:

Art. 2. Personal foul. A personal foul shall be a foul committed by a player that
involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live.

c. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal
foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based
solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player,
specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly
involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock
from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. (Women) This act shall also
serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule
4-17.1.g.)
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an
opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.

d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul shall be a personal
foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but
also severe or extreme while the ball is live.

So the clear difference between a 1 and a 2 is that a 2 is "severe and extreme" in addition to being "excessive." No definition is given of "severe and extreme" and we don't get any examples as with a 1. But to me, intentionally pushing someone to the ground is a step beyond any of the examples of a flagrant 1 which are given. It's the difference between doing something that could result in someone falling down (a hard foul, a push from behind) and something that is calculated or likely to produce that outcome (a strong downward push with follow through). In my mind, the officials were not wrong to deem the play "severe and extreme." The clincher for me (watch for this) is that after the initial contact on the left shoulder with Mika's right hand and forearm, he continues the pushing motion all way down to the forearm with his left hand and pushes it down as well. Not just strikes it or makes contact with it, but pushes it down.

Bottom line is I think it was a good call under these rules. Moreover, pushing to the ground with follow through is something that should result in a flagrant 2 IMO. Hard fouls happen. Guys hit the deck. But trying to put someone on the deck should result in an ejection. It's just a dangerous play.

[LuckyUte]

Since it's been talked about a bunch I went back and looked at the foul by Mika to see whether the flagrant 2 was the right call. For anyone who recorded this, starting watching around 8:20 in the second half.

What happens is Bach goes up with the ball in his right hand and Mika makes a play from Bach's left side, slightly to the front of him. He comes down with both arms, neither of which are anywhere near the ball because he is too far away from it to reach it. Mika's right hand comes down and grazes Bach's face. Some people said it was a bloody nose, but if you watch the replay after it is actually a scratch to the right of his nose as you look at him (his left) that they are treating on the sideline. Mika's right hand and forearm then come down on Bach's left shoulder and upper arm pushing downward, and continue to follow through until he falls. The left hand, which is also coming down in the same pushing motion catches Bach just below the elbow on the meat of his left forearm, just as Mika's right arm is disengaging from the shoulder area, and gives an additional push toward the ground. This has a particular effect because Bach's left arm is still flexed to a 90 degree angle and taught. The push on the forearm with the left hand happens second in time, is well after Bach is falling, is around waist level and negates it just being a hard initial hit that he pulls back from or at least doesn't follow through with. It's all one motion, but rather than just being a hit, there is a very clear follow through with both arms which goes from Bach's face, all the way down his arm to the forearm and only stops when Bach falls completely down and contact is lost. That's the nano-second by nano-second.

The really dumb move on Mika's part was to even attempt the play. If you watch closely, without his intentional foul, Bachynski gets called for an offensive foul. Bach was running right into a set BYU player. If Mika just watches, it is an offensive foul on Bach and a turnover instead of a three point play, foul shots and possession.

[Applejack]

A couple of thoughts on the day after:

- First the bad news. I'm not sure this game tells us a whole lot about Utah's fortunes in the Pac-12 this year. This game told me a lot more about BYU than it did about Utah. The Utes came out with a great defensive game plan (putting Taylor on Haws and showing on all picks, Wright on Carlino and checking him early on the break, healthy doses of Batshitinski to make Mika earn his points and to protect the rim, not attacking the offensive glass (except for Dallin) but instead focusing on transition defense). On offense, the game plan was basically "let's hope that JLo is sizzling from deep and then we'll just bury the young Cougars under the pressure of playing from behind against an underdog." This gameplan won't work against the Pac because most every team is better in the interior than BYU (and Utah).
- The game ball should go to Brandon Taylor. He had a terrible offensive game (way too many heat checks for a guy who was clearly not hot), but he really stymied Haws all game. Haws reminds me of what Kobe Bryant would be like if he had grown up in Alpine - super crafty with and without the ball, lots of moves and counter moves, deadly shooter who demands attention at all times, but not what I would call "a fighter." He should have been posting up Taylor and taking Taylor in clear outs like they did to start the second half. Taylor has a ton of heart and he's quick, but because he gives up so much height, he has to overplay Haws' shot, which usually would allow Haws to use his junkbox of fakes and jukes to draw fouls and get blow-bys. Haws never really did that. But give Taylor credit, he ran around with him all game and really frustrated him. (Also, thumbs down to Coach Rose for not adjusting and getting Haws some different catches).
- I love Delon. He had a really nice game and didn't force anything (except for the charge, which was still questionable). His fast break flip pass to Batshitinki for the dunk was a thing of beauty. I wonder if the coaches are going to ask him to start forcing the issue a little more once the competition improves, but so far he has been nearly flawless in his decision making.
- I'm serious about retiring JLo's number when he's done. The kid took a chance on a dumpster fire of a program and plays with a ton of heart. He ripped the Cougars hearts out in the first five minutes. Ice cold.
- Can we buy a set of inbounds plays on eBay? It seemed like BYU scored half of their buckets on inbound dunks. Good coaching. On the other hand, our inbounds play was stand around for four seconds and then have someone sprint backwards and throw a half court pass to them. Bad coaching. We need to clean that up.
- I was really surprised by the lack of fight in BYU last night. When we got the big lead early I kept thinking "man, there is WAY too much time left." But they never made a run. Mika was the only guy out there that looked like he was pissed. I'm glad to hear that he plans to serve the Lord for the next two years. Excellent decision, in my book.
- Really nice to see Van Dyke get some nice minutes. He missed the rim by about 3 feet on his last three, but his two shots in the first half were huge. This team is going to get our small forwards a lot of open threes in the corner - we need people to knock those down: I'm happy Van Dyke was able to do it. Dakari hit a bunch too, until he bricked one against the side of the backboard.
- I am not sold on Olsen. He is a big body and works hard, but he's a step slow on defense and does not have great hands on offense. He's a nice piece, but I don't think he'll ever be a starter.
- Did Ogbe play? [Edit: no]
- I feel bad for Lenz because he's on the wrong team. He needs to be on a team with a rim protecting center and a point guard who likes to run pick and rolls. He'd be a great pick-and-pop guy (like Memo Okur, but without the range). But we are asking him to play the center position (which he can't do defensively) and to play in the post on offense. If Batshitinski keeps playing at a high level, Lenz will get squeezed out.

Overall, I was shocked by how unshocked I was at last night's result. I thought the game would be more of a track meet, but I wasn't surprised that we were in it to win it. I don't think this team is a NCAA tournament team because (1) we aren't going to have many marquee wins given our pre-season schedule (2) we are really shallow in the interior and (3) the Pac-12 is deep this year, but the team has talent and a strange amount of depth on the wings that we haven't had in my lifetime.

[LA Ute]

This gameplan won't work against the Pac because most every team is better in the interior than BYU (and Utah.

I agree, but what I liked about the game plan was that they had one, it was intelligent and designed perfectly for BYU, and they executed it well and with patience. We'll have different plans for different opponents and I hope we'll steal a few PAC-12 games as a result.

[Applejack]

I agree, but what I liked about the game plan was that they had one, it was intelligent and designed perfectly for BYU, and they executed it well and with patience. We'll have different plans for different opponents and I hope we'll steal a few PAC-12 games as a result.

Totally agree. I'm still a little bit on the fence about the overall coaching ability of this staff (I'm sold on the recruiting ability and general team management stuff). However, last night's game made me a believer that this staff can effectively scout and game plan opponents. That is a breath of fresh air compared to previous regimes.

[crazyute]

I've made a decision. Half my family are Utes (the Kingsburys) and the other half, Cougars.

I can't bring myself to cheer for Utah football but I loved Majerus and have decided I'm so sick of BYU's insistence on mediocrity, I am now a Utah basketball fan.
bandwagoner!!

this was the popular thing to do for byu fans back in the '90's too. funny I don't see utah fans doing the same. we didn't turn to the byu basketball team the past 8 years.

stick with it. through the good and the bad. that makes the high's even better.

byu fans in the '90's were also all 49er fans, then they were eagle fans, then colt fans for a couple collie/manning years, and now funny how they are all back to 9er fans.

what a fickle bunch.

[sancho]

- I feel bad for Lenz because he's on the wrong team. He needs to be on a team with a rim protecting center and a point guard who likes to run pick and rolls. He'd be a great pick-and-pop guy (like Memo Okur, but without the range). But we are asking him to play the center position (which he can't do defensively) and to play in the post on offense. If Batshitinski keeps playing at a high level, Lenz will get squeezed out.


Loverdige is playing a lot of minutes. If Olsen and Bach continue to perform well, maybe we can use Lenz as a back up power forward at some point. Maybe it's too late to add that. At any rate, he gives us some versatility in our big men.

[Two Utes]

A couple of thoughts on the day after:

- First the bad news. I'm not sure this game tells us a whole lot about Utah's fortunes in the Pac-12 this year. This game told me a lot more about BYU than it did about Utah. The Utes came out with a great defensive game plan (putting Taylor on Haws and showing on all picks, Wright on Carlino and checking him early on the break, healthy doses of Batshitinski to make Mika earn his points and to protect the rim, not attacking the offensive glass (except for Dallin) but instead focusing on transition defense). On offense, the game plan was basically "let's hope that JLo is sizzling from deep and then we'll just bury the young Cougars under the pressure of playing from behind against an underdog." This gameplan won't work against the Pac because most every team is better in the interior than BYU (and Utah).
- The game ball should go to Brandon Taylor. He had a terrible offensive game (way too many heat checks for a guy who was clearly not hot), but he really stymied Haws all game. Haws reminds me of what Kobe Bryant would be like if he had grown up in Alpine - super crafty with and without the ball, lots of moves and counter moves, deadly shooter who demands attention at all times, but not what I would call "a fighter." He should have been posting up Taylor and taking Taylor in clear outs like they did to start the second half. Taylor has a ton of heart and he's quick, but because he gives up so much height, he has to overplay Haws' shot, which usually would allow Haws to use his junkbox of fakes and jukes to draw fouls and get blow-bys. Haws never really did that. But give Taylor credit, he ran around with him all game and really frustrated him. (Also, thumbs down to Coach Rose for not adjusting and getting Haws some different catches).
- I love Delon. He had a really nice game and didn't force anything (except for the charge, which was still questionable). His fast break flip pass to Batshitinki for the dunk was a thing of beauty. I wonder if the coaches are going to ask him to start forcing the issue a little more once the competition improves, but so far he has been nearly flawless in his decision making.
- I'm serious about retiring JLo's number when he's done. The kid took a chance on a dumpster fire of a program and plays with a ton of heart. He ripped the Cougars hearts out in the first five minutes. Ice cold.
- Can we buy a set of inbounds plays on eBay? It seemed like BYU scored half of their buckets on inbound dunks. Good coaching. On the other hand, our inbounds play was stand around for four seconds and then have someone sprint backwards and throw a half court pass to them. Bad coaching. We need to clean that up.
- I was really surprised by the lack of fight in BYU last night. When we got the big lead early I kept thinking "man, there is WAY too much time left." But they never made a run. Mika was the only guy out there that looked like he was pissed. I'm glad to hear that he plans to serve the Lord for the next two years. Excellent decision, in my book.
- Really nice to see Van Dyke get some nice minutes. He missed the rim by about 3 feet on his last three, but his two shots in the first half were huge. This team is going to get our small forwards a lot of open threes in the corner - we need people to knock those down: I'm happy Van Dyke was able to do it. Dakari hit a bunch too, until he bricked one against the side of the backboard.
- I am not sold on Olsen. He is a big body and works hard, but he's a step slow on defense and does not have great hands on offense. He's a nice piece, but I don't think he'll ever be a starter.
- Did Ogbe play? [Edit: no]
- I feel bad for Lenz because he's on the wrong team. He needs to be on a team with a rim protecting center and a point guard who likes to run pick and rolls. He'd be a great pick-and-pop guy (like Memo Okur, but without the range). But we are asking him to play the center position (which he can't do defensively) and to play in the post on offense. If Batshitinski keeps playing at a high level, Lenz will get squeezed out.

Overall, I was shocked by how unshocked I was at last night's result. I thought the game would be more of a track meet, but I wasn't surprised that we were in it to win it. I don't think this team is a NCAA tournament team because (1) we aren't going to have many marquee wins given our pre-season schedule (2) we are really shallow in the interior and (3) the Pac-12 is deep this year, but the team has talent and a strange amount of depth on the wings that we haven't had in my lifetime.


I learned from Boylen and on Utefans that inbounds plays don't work.

[UBlender]

One of the most interesting aspects of this game was that, even with the blowout, only two guys (Olsen and Bach) gave us more than we could have reasonably expected on the offensive end, and they combined to only play 32 minutes. Everyone else pretty much played at or below their established/expected level. In other words, despite only having 32 minutes (one starter's worth) of greater-than-expected offensive production, we still put up over 80 points and dominated for 40 minutes.

This is a little lost in the shuffle. Utah did not play anything close to a great game on Saturday. Aside from Lovridge's torrid start, nobody on Utah had a particularly above average shooting night (and even Loveridge ended up missing a bunch of makeable shots and had mediocre numbers). People reflect on the first few minutes and it feels like Utah was en fuego. That simply isn't the case.

[Viking]

bandwagoner!!

this was the popular thing to do for byu fans back in the '90's too. funny I don't see utah fans doing the same. we didn't turn to the byu basketball team the past 8 years.

stick with it. through the good and the bad. that makes the high's even better.

byu fans in the '90's were also all 49er fans, then they were eagle fans, then colt fans for a couple collie/manning years, and now funny how they are all back to 9er fans.

what a fickle bunch.

Nope. I am so sick of BYU mediocrity that I need to diversify. I don't really care for UT hoops as the horns never really caught my attention in bball growing up so that's out.

Utah is the only place dumb enough to put a family name on a bldg, so I will go with them for hoops.

[sancho]

Utah is the only place dumb enough to put a family name on a bldg, so I will go with them for hoops.

Welcome aboard. But you should really just go all in and do football too. Make a clean start, and don't look back.

[GarthUte]

Welcome aboard. But you should really just go all in and do football too. Make a clean start, and don't look back.

Agreed. It's the right thing to do, Viking.

[SeattleUte]

Overall, I was shocked by how unshocked I was at last night's result. I thought the game would be more of a track meet, but I wasn't surprised that we were in it to win it. I don't think this team is a NCAA tournament team because (1) we aren't going to have many marquee wins given our pre-season schedule (2) we are really shallow in the interior and (3) the Pac-12 is deep this year, but the team has talent and a strange amount of depth on the wings that we haven't had in my lifetime.

You were surprised the Utes blew them out. I wasn't. In any event, I don't see how your pessimism follows from that game. I predict they'll be 17-1 when they travel to Arizona (their only road games are against two bad teams). I'll up date my forecast then. I disagree we won't have any marquee wins, as there is plenty of opportunity for them in the Pac 12. I disagree the Utes are "shallow in the middle". What they may lack is a star in the middle, but they don't lack depth. I don't follow your logic re how depth on the wings means they're not an NCAA tournament team.

[U-Ute]

I disagree the Utes are "shallow in the middle". What they may lack is a star in the middle, but they don't lack depth. I don't follow your logic re how depth on the wings means they're not an NCAA tournament team.

I hope you are right, but I'm still not completely sold on Bachynski. His wild inconsistency last year was maddening, so he needs to show me something outside two games this year. Hopefully he has turned a corner, but I'm not holding my breath.

[SeattleUte]

I hope you are right, but I'm still not completely sold on Bachynski. His wild inconsistency last year was maddening, so he needs to show me something outside two games this year. Hopefully he has turned a corner, but I'm not holding my breath.

I also disagree that Mika isn't a Pac 12 caliber low post player. If Olsen and Bach can pay with Mika, they can compete with any Pac 12 center.

[U-Ute]

I also disagree that Mika isn't a Pac 12 caliber low post player. If Olsen and Bach can pay with Mika, they can compete with any Pac 12 center.

I agree with that. Mika is quite good.

My concern is Bachynski's consistency.

[Applejack]

Nope. I am so sick of BYU mediocrity that I need to diversify. I don't really care for UT hoops as the horns never really caught my attention in bball growing up so that's out.

Utah is the only place dumb enough to put a family name on a bldg, so I will go with them for hoops.

Welcome to the fold! I'm surprised that one win in basketball is enough to convert you to the true and living team, yet four years of football domination is not. All in good time, I suppose.

[Applejack]

You were surprised the Utes blew them out. I wasn't. In any event, I don't see how your pessimism follows from that game. I predict they'll be 17-1 when they travel to Arizona (their only road games are against two bad teams). I'll up date my forecast then. I disagree we won't have any marquee wins, as there is plenty of opportunity for them in the Pac 12. I disagree the Utes are "shallow in the middle". What they may lack is a star in the middle, but they don't lack depth. I don't follow your logic re how depth on the wings means they're not an NCAA tournament team.

Uh-oh, SeattleUte is flashing his Optimism Police badge. Hey, I'm as excited as anyone about the Utes this year. The BYU win is a huge step and a great win for the team (especially Loveridge). But I'll wait for your 17-1 swish before I start going crazy about our chances of reaching the Sweet Sixteen.

I am still pessimistic about our interior play. I'm overjoyed to see Bachy playing so well, but as U-Ute points out, we've seen this before only to have him essentially leave the team. It will be fun to see the two Oregon teams come to the Hunty after New Years - I think that will give us a real sense of this team's potential.

Oh, and St. Katherine's too.

[U-Ute]

Oh, and St. Katherine's too.

The true measure of any championship team.

[SeattleUte]

Uh-oh, SeattleUte is flashing his Optimism Police badge. Hey, I'm as excited as anyone about the Utes this year. The BYU win is a huge step and a great win for the team (especially Loveridge). But I'll wait for your 17-1 swish before I start going crazy about our chances of reaching the Sweet Sixteen.

I am still pessimistic about our interior play. I'm overjoyed to see Bachy playing so well, but as U-Ute points out, we've seen this before only to have him essentially leave the team. It will be fun to see the two Oregon teams come to the Hunty after New Years - I think that will give us a real sense of this team's potential.

Oh, and St. Katherine's too.

If you don't toe the party line and get more optimistic what we do with peole like you is take you out in the yard at night and shoot you and then bury you in a ditch before the sun come's up. No one will ever know.

[sancho]

If you don't toe the party line and get more optimistic what we do with peole like you is take you out in the yard at night and shoot you and then bury you in a ditch before the sun come's up. No one will ever know.

It's true. That's what they did to me.

[LA Ute]

It's true. That's what they did to me.

I'd forgotten about that. But you came back in great form as sancho zombie.

[U-Ute]

I am still pessimistic about our interior play. I'm overjoyed to see Bachy playing so well, but as U-Ute points out, we've seen this before only to have him essentially leave the team. It will be fun to see the two Oregon teams come to the Hunty after New Years - I think that will give us a real sense of this team's potential.


It will be interesting to see how Bachynski reacts to a bad game. If he bounces back, I'll feel better about things.

[SoCalPat]

This is a little lost in the shuffle. Utah did not play anything close to a great game on Saturday. Aside from Lovridge's torrid start, nobody on Utah had a particularly above average shooting night (and even Loveridge ended up missing a bunch of makeable shots and had mediocre numbers). People reflect on the first few minutes and it feels like Utah was en fuego. That simply isn't the case.

Clarify that you're talking about the offensive end, specifically shooting. We were lights out defensively and for the first time this year, we were more than above-average in the paint with our bigs.

[UBlender]

Clarify that you're talking about the offensive end, specifically shooting. We were lights out defensively and for the first time this year, we were more than above-average in the paint with our bigs.

Yes, I made that post in haste, but that is what I meant. From an offensive (more specifically, shooting by guards and wings) perspective Utah was nothing special and probably below average on Saturday. I've seen/heard a few people try to call this game a fluke and imply that Utah was out of their minds. That simply isn't the case. BYU would probably hit a few more shots on most nights, but so would Utah.

[sancho]

Loverdige is playing a lot of minutes. If Olsen and Bach continue to perform well, maybe we can use Lenz as a back up power forward at some point. Maybe it's too late to add that. At any rate, he gives us some versatility in our big men.

Tony Jones tweets that this is the plan. Move Lenz to 4, start playing Kova some at the 5. Give Loveridge some rest. We'll see.

[Applejack]

If you don't toe the party line and get more optimistic what we do with peole like you is take you out in the yard at night and shoot you and then bury you in a ditch before the sun come's up. No one will ever know.

First they came for Sancho, and I said nothing....

[Scratch]

First they came for Sancho, and I said nothing....

As I recall, you gave us his address.

[crazyute]

Tony Jones tweets that this is the plan. Move Lenz to 4, start playing Kova some at the 5. Give Loveridge some rest. We'll see.
that is really good to hear. I am interested to see how kova plays. are we going to see him this week?

[Jeff Lebowski]

bandwagoner!!

this was the popular thing to do for byu fans back in the '90's too. funny I don't see utah fans doing the same. we didn't turn to the byu basketball team the past 8 years.

stick with it. through the good and the bad. that makes the high's even better.

byu fans in the '90's were also all 49er fans, then they were eagle fans, then colt fans for a couple collie/manning years, and now funny how they are all back to 9er fans.

what a fickle bunch.

Bandwagon fans are the worst. And fans that defect to a rival right after a loss are the worst of the worst.

Good to see one of you folks calling it like it is.

[sancho]

Bandwagon fans are the worst. And fans that defect to a rival right after a loss are the worst of the worst.


Where do fans who visit rivals' message boards rank?

[Applejack]

Bandwagon fans are the worst. And fans that defect to a rival right after a loss are the worst of the worst.

Good to see one of you folks calling it like it is.

You are just circling the wagons, hoping that we don't pouch any more of your all-stars. I should inform you that we had some preliminary discussions with BYU71, but the discussions ended when he refused to compromise on his beliefs about the importance of no-Sunday play and the honor code.

Topper has also reached out to us.

[SoCalPat]

Tony Jones tweets that this is the plan. Move Lenz to 4, start playing Kova some at the 5. Give Loveridge some rest. We'll see.

Yeah, minutes is starting to be a concern. Against BYU, in which we led by double-digits pretty much all throughout, we still played JO and DW for 38 minutes apiece. I don't think either player should play more than 38 minutes combined in our next two games.