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Sullyute
01-13-2014, 11:39 AM
So in Sunday School we talked about foreordination. There were lots of comments made about foreordination of callings. The wife of a stake counselor admitted that not all callings are inspired. Then the famous JS quote was thrown out that every calling was pre-ordained in the grand council (see quote below). So the teacher ran out of time before we could really get much deeper on the topic.

So the question that I asked was what was the purpose of foreordination? If we have our agency to choose, then what is the point? If God knew what callings we were going to take and then preordained us to those callings then that seems more like pre-destiny. If he pre-ordained us to the possible calling outcomes based on our choices (college, jobs, homes, spouses, health, righteousness, etc) throughout life, then wouldn't we just be foreordained to every possible calling in the Church? That really seems like a waste of time.

Personally this seems like a 19th century doctrine to justify slavery, royalty, racism, poverty, nepotism, etc. In modern times does this doctrine really still work and what is the purpose if we really have agency?


Foreordination is the premortal selection of individuals to come forth in mortality at specified times, under certain conditions, and to fulfill predesignated responsibilities. In LDS interpretation, "foreordained" does not mean predetermined (see Predestination (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/interfaith/predestination_eom.htm)). It is the outcome of voluntary choice, not the violation or abrogation of it.

Abraham (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bible/abraham.html) was told that he was included among the valiant spirits and was therefore chosen or foreordained before his birth to be a leader in God's kingdom on earth (Abr. 3:22-23). The Lord likewise informed Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and…I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5). Alma 2 (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/people/alma_2.html) taught that priests belonging to a "holy order" were foreordained "according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works" (Alma 13:1, 3). The Prophet Joseph Smith (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/people/joseph_smith/index.html) concluded that "every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was" (TPJS, p. 365).


While each of these selections is ultimately based on the omniscience and foreknowledge of God, several factors may influence one's earthly circumstances. Foreordination comes as a blessing or reward for premortal righteousness and valiant commitment to Jesus Christ. Birth into the house of Israel and heirship to all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are often seen as the birthright of dedicated souls (see Eph. 1:4-5; Rom. 9:4).

Latter-day Saints further believe that the times, places, and circumstances of birth into mortality may be the outcome of former covenants and decisions as well as that which would be best, in divine wisdom, to provide both opportunities and challenges for the individual's growth and development. Additionally, foreordination may also be based on God's own purposes and plans to bless all of his children. The specifics of these factors remain unclear. As a result, a person's premortal character can never be judged by his or her present station in life. Some of the most bitter and arduous circumstances may be, in the perspective of eternity, the most blessed, and perhaps even the situations that men and women elected and agreed to enter. Foreordination does not preclude the exercise of agency. Foreordination is a conditional preappointment to or bestowal of certain blessings and responsibilities.

LA Ute
01-13-2014, 12:07 PM
So in Sunday School we talked about foreordination. There were lots of comments made about foreordination of callings. The wife of a stake counselor admitted that not all callings are inspired. Then the famous JS quote was thrown out that every calling was pre-ordained in the grand council (see quote below). So the teacher ran out of time before we could really get much deeper on the topic.

So the question that I asked was what was the purpose of foreordination? If we have our agency to choose, then what is the point? If God knew what callings we were going to take and then preordained us to those callings then that seems more like pre-destiny. If he pre-ordained us to the possible calling outcomes based on our choices (college, jobs, homes, spouses, health, righteousness, etc) throughout life, then wouldn't we just be foreordained to every possible calling in the Church? That really seems like a waste of time.

Personally this seems like a 19th century doctrine to justify slavery, royalty, racism, poverty, nepotism, etc. In modern times does this doctrine really still work and what is the purpose if we really have agency?

In the bit you quoted (where is that from?) I found a lot to make me nervous and that I dislike, until I got to this:


The specifics of these factors remain unclear. As a result, a person's premortal character can never be judged by his or her present station in life. Some of the most bitter and arduous circumstances may be, in the perspective of eternity, the most blessed, and perhaps even the situations that men and women elected and agreed to enter.

We do not tend to emphasize that teaching as much as we should. I do get tired of Mormons crowing about how wonderful we must have been in the pre-mortal existence, based on our earthly circumstances. Actually, I hate that type of thinking.

As for foreordination/foreknowledge/predestination, I've decided I won't figure that out in this life. I'll just keep plugging and trying to live up to whatever I was foreordained to do. Otherwise I end up driving myself nuts with unanswerable questions about the difference between foreordination and predestination when God knows in advance what we are going to do anyway.

Sullyute
01-13-2014, 12:14 PM
In the bit you quoted (where is that from?)

I got it from here (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/premortal/foreordination_eom.htm#blt). It looks like it was written by Brent L. Top, a BYU religion professor.

LuckyUte
01-16-2014, 01:42 PM
So in Sunday School we talked about foreordination. There were lots of comments made about foreordination of callings. The wife of a stake counselor admitted that not all callings are inspired. Then the famous JS quote was thrown out that every calling was pre-ordained in the grand council (see quote below). So the teacher ran out of time before we could really get much deeper on the topic.

So the question that I asked was what was the purpose of foreordination? If we have our agency to choose, then what is the point? If God knew what callings we were going to take and then preordained us to those callings then that seems more like pre-destiny. If he pre-ordained us to the possible calling outcomes based on our choices (college, jobs, homes, spouses, health, righteousness, etc) throughout life, then wouldn't we just be foreordained to every possible calling in the Church? That really seems like a waste of time.

Personally this seems like a 19th century doctrine to justify slavery, royalty, racism, poverty, nepotism, etc. In modern times does this doctrine really still work and what is the purpose if we really have agency?

There are plenty of attorneys on the board who are much better at parsing language than me, but does pre-ordination mean that you will become whatever was pre-ordained or does it mean that there is only the potential to reach whatever it is based on your own choices?

Sullyute
01-16-2014, 02:28 PM
There are plenty of attorneys on the board who are much better at parsing language than me, but does pre-ordination mean that you will become whatever was pre-ordained or does it mean that there is only the potential to reach whatever it is based on your own choices?

I believe that it is the latter. However, if we are talking about "potential" then I could potentially be just about anything in the church if I played my cards right. Also is the foreordination specific? i.e "LuckyUte you are foreordained to be the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Orem 27th ward of the Orem Utah West Stake in 2012". Or is it more like, "LuckyUte, you are foreordained to teach the youth at some point during your life on earth"?

If it is the first, then has your potential blessings and rewards been obliterated because your moved into the Orem 26th ward instead of the 27th (you wife was right that you should have built on the lot across the street)? If it is the latter, then such a foreordination is so broad as to be almost meaningless. Do we get extra blessings for accepting a calling that we were not fore-ordained to do? Are we overly cursed for not accepting a calling that we were pre-ordained to serve in? If a bishop is not listening to the spirit, is it possible to receive a calling that one was not fore-ordained to in the pre-existance?

If we bring it back to potential, isn't everyone who keep their first estate, have the potential to become like God? if God doesn't ordain us to any callings wouldn't that tip his hand as to what kind of choices we would make in this life? Wouldn't we just take a mulligan on being sent down at that time, and say, "Sorry God, I am going to wait this one out for a more favorable circumstance before I take the plunge to earth considering my eternal soul is riding on it"?

What do you think?

LA Ute
01-16-2014, 03:43 PM
I was foreordained to be a starting All-American QB for the Utes. I was not sufficiently true and faithful, however, so despite my subsequent repentance I missed my moment and I am left with just being a faithful fan. Like faithful home teachers, faithful Ute fans will have as great a reward as star players when we all get to the big RES in the sky.

LuckyUte
01-17-2014, 01:42 PM
I believe that it is the latter. However, if we are talking about "potential" then I could potentially be just about anything in the church if I played my cards right. Also is the foreordination specific? i.e "LuckyUte you are foreordained to be the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Orem 27th ward of the Orem Utah West Stake in 2012". Or is it more like, "LuckyUte, you are foreordained to teach the youth at some point during your life on earth"?

If it is the first, then has your potential blessings and rewards been obliterated because your moved into the Orem 26th ward instead of the 27th (you wife was right that you should have built on the lot across the street)? If it is the latter, then such a foreordination is so broad as to be almost meaningless. Do we get extra blessings for accepting a calling that we were not fore-ordained to do? Are we overly cursed for not accepting a calling that we were pre-ordained to serve in? If a bishop is not listening to the spirit, is it possible to receive a calling that one was not fore-ordained to in the pre-existance?

If we bring it back to potential, isn't everyone who keep their first estate, have the potential to become like God? if God doesn't ordain us to any callings wouldn't that tip his hand as to what kind of choices we would make in this life? Wouldn't we just take a mulligan on being sent down at that time, and say, "Sorry God, I am going to wait this one out for a more favorable circumstance before I take the plunge to earth considering my eternal soul is riding on it"?

What do you think?

I don't know what to think, to be honest. I hear you on the first estate and potential for glory, and I understand the JS quote and the quote from the BYU professor. All that said, I have problems with a lot of it. LAUte has basically said, I won't understand so I will do my best to live up to whatever it is. So, <shrug> I dunno.

Sullyute
01-17-2014, 01:56 PM
So, <shrug> I dunno.

Well, it looks like we agree then, as I dunno either. It is nice to know that we are in good company even if we have to tolerate that LA Ute fellow. ;)

Utah
01-17-2014, 02:18 PM
I've always thought of it this way: When I am foreordained to something, it is because I have unique talents and abilities that can either help me progress or someone else progress because of me. BUT, I have to do the correct things to be in line for this calling/blessing. I have the ability to help out the youth in the Orem whatever, wherever, but if I break my covenants I won't get the opportunity to do so, and someone else will be put in there to try to accomplish what I should have done.

This scripture (and all the other D&C ones similar to it) clarified it a little for me:

"And again, inasmuch as aparents (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) have children in Zion, or in any of her bstakes (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) which are organized, that cteach (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) them not to understand the ddoctrine (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eeight (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) years old, the fsin (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/68.25?lang=eng#) be upon the heads of the parents."

If you are foreordained to be a parent, you have the ability to help some little ones out. If you don't become a parent, you miss out on those blessings you could have had. If you do become a parent, or a teacher, or a bishop, and don't fulfill your calling, and wrong doing that comes from your lack of diligence is on you. If you never teach your kids that murder is wrong (extreme example, I know) then that sin is on you, not the kid (unless someone else has taught your kid that murder is wrong).

I think I'm rambling, but that is how I see it. Fore ordination allows God to put people in situations to succeed. It's up to us to do the work to succeed.

chrisrenrut
01-17-2014, 03:22 PM
"LuckyUte you are foreordained to be the Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Orem 27th ward of the Orem Utah West Stake in 2012".

This sounds more like an angry and vengeful old testament God than a loving God.