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LA Ute
03-05-2014, 08:47 AM
My bother is the branch president serving in the LDS branch at the Women's Section of the Salt Lake County Jail. In that assignment he's completely changed his view of how we deal with people convicted of drug offenses. Here's a video about the Serving Time Café, where many of the women he works with (all of them inmates at the Utah State Prison) work. He says, "This simple café serves great food and is open to the public Monday through Friday for breakfast and lunch. And best of all, the café gives these women the opportunity to work, to interact with the public, and be engaged in a positive experience every day." I'm proud of my big bro's role in all of this.


http://vimeo.com/86746243

Diehard Ute
03-05-2014, 09:59 AM
My bother is the branch president serving in the LDS branch at the Women's Section of the Salt Lake County Jail. In that assignment he's completely changed his view of how we deal with people convicted of drug offenses. Here's a video about the Serving Time Café, where many of the women he works with (all of them inmates at the Utah State Prison) work. He says, "This simple café serves great food and is open to the public Monday through Friday for breakfast and lunch. And best of all, the café gives these women the opportunity to work, to interact with the public, and be engaged in a positive experience every day." I'm proud of my big bro's role in all of this.


http://vimeo.com/86746243

So, what's his view?

I certainly have mine, as well as my view of the role out local religious and charitable institutions play in the drug culture, curious what his, and your, take is.

LA Ute
03-05-2014, 11:50 AM
So, what's his view?

I certainly have mine, as well as my view of the role out local religious and charitable institutions play in the drug culture, curious what his, and your, take is.

Generally, he thinks the emphasis should be on less incarceration and more treatment. I know that's a lot easier said than done.

Diehard Ute
03-05-2014, 11:51 AM
Generally, he thinks the emphasis should be on less incarceration and more treatment. I know that's a lot easier said than done.

Treatment only works if the person wants to get clean...and my experience is there are many who don't

LA Ute
03-05-2014, 12:38 PM
Treatment only works if the person wants to get clean...and my experience is there are many who don't

Of course. The biggest change in my brother has been an increase in compassion for addicts. That's more a personal religious change than a call for reform in the system.

Sullyute
03-05-2014, 01:30 PM
Treatment only works if the person wants to get clean...and my experience is there are many who don't

Diehard, will you share a little more on what you think would be a better process in helping/punishing drug addicts?

Diehard Ute
03-05-2014, 01:37 PM
Diehard, will you share a little more on what you think would be a better process in helping/punishing drug addicts?

There's no easy solution. However I think many people would be surprised at how many "good samaritans" help addicts without realizing it.

Be it those who give money to panhandlers, religious leaders who routinely pay rent for addicts etc. They're thinking they're helping, reality is they're enabling.

I wish there was an easy answer. Many claim legalization is that answer. I don't know anyone in the law enforcement world who buys that.

We should spend more time and money keeping people from starting...that's our best bet

LA Ute
03-05-2014, 01:45 PM
There's no easy solution. However I think many people would be surprised at how many "good samaritans" help addicts without realizing it.

Be it those who give money to panhandlers, religious leaders who routinely pay rent for addicts etc. They're thinking they're helping, reality is they're enabling.

I wish there was an easy answer. Many claim legalization is that answer. I don't know anyone in the law enforcement world who buys that.

We should spend more time and money keeping people from starting...that's our best bet

I think that makes sense. I agreed that enabling is a big problem.

wuapinmon
03-06-2014, 10:47 AM
I think we should legalize all of it and get the police out of the drug business. Let us deal with addiction and prevention through education & treatment rather than a punitive approach which is a complete, abject, colossal and utter failure worldwide. The cost in violence and a corrupt and inefficient global police force is too high. Take away cops having to worry about interdiction and they could do more real police work. It would legitimize whole industries and neighborhoods, allow dealers access to the court system, and resurrender the monopoly on violence back to the Leviathan for the resolution of disputes. It would be a rough first ten years, but after, I truly believe things would improve.

People call me naive, pie in the sky, lofty idealist, and the like. No matter. I think it would work. Prohibition and basic economics show us that people will get what they want no matter how hard we try to stop them. And the human cost of a punitive approach is massive and dire.

Alright, let me have it.

Diehard Ute
03-06-2014, 10:53 AM
I think we should legalize all of it and get the police out of the drug business. Let us deal with addiction and prevention through education & treatment rather than a punitive approach which is a complete, abject, colossal and utter failure worldwide. The cost in violence and a corrupt and inefficient global police force is too high. Take away cops having to worry about interdiction and they could do more real police work. It would legitimize whole industries and neighborhoods, allow dealers access to the court system, and resurrender the monopoly on violence back to the Leviathan for the resolution of disputes. It would be a rough first ten years, but after, I truly believe things would improve.

People call me naive, pie in the sky, lofty idealist, and the like. No matter. I think it would work. Prohibition and basic economics show us that people will get what they want no matter how hard we try to stop them. And the human cost of a punitive approach is massive and dire.

Alright, let me have it.

And legalizing it would change nothing.

The cartels aren't going anywhere, it's big business to them. The violence that exists will still exist.

The property crimes that exist due to drugs won't go away, sure they addicts will be able to buy it legally, but they still won't be able to hold down a job and thus will still steal (or panhandle) to get the money to buy their legal drugs.

But hey, we'll have a ton more taxes to spend on things like insurance for legislature spouses

Sullyute
03-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Alright, let me have it.

Are there any examples of this working in a country or society? Does Amsterdam allow harder drugs or just weed? What has been the impact there (besides increased tourism)? Would the assumed hefty taxes on drugs still create a big black market for the cartels as Diehard indicated?

I would prefer that we eased up on needing a prescription from a doctor to get a antibiotic and other basic medicine before we legalized hard drugs.

Viking
03-08-2014, 06:35 AM
And legalizing it would change nothing.

The cartels aren't going anywhere, it's big business to them. The violence that exists will still exist.

The property crimes that exist due to drugs won't go away, sure they addicts will be able to buy it legally, but they still won't be able to hold down a job and thus will still steal (or panhandle) to get the money to buy their legal drugs.

But hey, we'll have a ton more taxes to spend on things like insurance for legislature spouses

Is there an example of this?

I agree with Wuap, fwiw.

Viking
03-08-2014, 06:57 AM
Is there an example of this?

I agree with Wuap, fwiw.

Oh yeah. Prohibition.

Rocker Ute
03-08-2014, 09:24 AM
The problem with legalization of everything is that it only addresses one side of the drug problem. Diehard hit on it, but harder drugs have a personal and social toll that has nothing to do with the criminal organizations that control it. I had a cousin die from an heroin OD who had been in and out of every treatment center in the west as well as prison. A once bright and great kid couldn't hold down a job, was stealing money from his family, couldn't live with anyone because of what the drug did to him and more. The lives of his family were hell and continue to be so.

The only thing that may have been improved in his life from general legalization was reduced legal fees, but also like Diehard mentioned, his inability to be a member of society and not a slave to this drug meant he couldn't hold a job, could get any money and so he turned to crime to get what he needed (which actually was typically what he was in jail for, not drug-related charges).

And he is maybe a good example of this, because his family could afford to put him in every treatment system available. He desperately wanted to be free of this, and even with the best treatment couldn't kick it. In fact near the end of his life he desperately didn't want to go back to prison because he said access to drugs was easier in there than it was out on the streets.

But going back to LA, there are a lot of people out there who want treatment, who unlike my cousin could kick their problems with the right treatment who aren't getting it, but should. The simple answer is there is no one grand sweeping thing that can be done to fix the problem.

Viking
03-08-2014, 09:37 AM
The problem with legalization of everything is that it only addresses one side of the drug problem. Diehard hit on it, but harder drugs have a personal and social toll that has nothing to do with the criminal organizations that control it. I had a cousin die from an heroin OD who had been in and out of every treatment center in the west as well as prison. A once bright and great kid couldn't hold down a job, was stealing money from his family, couldn't live with anyone because of what the drug did to him and more. The lives of his family were hell and continue to be so.

The only thing that may have been improved in his life from general legalization was reduced legal fees, but also like Diehard mentioned, his inability to be a member of society and not a slave to this drug meant he couldn't hold a job, could get any money and so he turned to crime to get what he needed (which actually was typically what he was in jail for, not drug-related charges).

And he is maybe a good example of this, because his family could afford to put him in every treatment system available. He desperately wanted to be free of this, and even with the best treatment couldn't kick it. In fact near the end of his life he desperately didn't want to go back to prison because he said access to drugs was easier in there than it was out on the streets.

But going back to LA, there are a lot of people out there who want treatment, who unlike my cousin could kick their problems with the right treatment who aren't getting it, but should. The simple answer is there is no one grand sweeping thing that can be done to fix the problem.

I think Heroin and other opiates should regulated but still legal. As far as I'm concerned, beer, pot, LSD, ecstasy and tobacco should be dispensed in vending machines. Opiates at the pharmacy.

The gangs will have to find something else to fight over.

wuapinmon
03-11-2014, 11:31 AM
And legalizing it would change nothing.

The cartels aren't going anywhere, it's big business to them. The violence that exists will still exist.

The property crimes that exist due to drugs won't go away, sure they addicts will be able to buy it legally, but they still won't be able to hold down a job and thus will still steal (or panhandle) to get the money to buy their legal drugs.

But hey, we'll have a ton more taxes to spend on things like insurance for legislature spouses

I disagree that nothing would change. The property crimes would increase, a lot at first, and then slightly as the culture changes. The punitive approach you are paid to enforce is a complete failure. One of the reasons why the drug trade is filled with violence and hypermachismo is that there is no legal redress in the courts for people who feel wronged. Once legitimized, we'll see the cartels become conglomerates and multi-nationals. There won't be a need for the wholesale slaughter that they use to silence witnesses, intimidate competition, and punish betrayers, because, the business will be legitimate, and therefore, not in need of violence because the baddest badasses of all, old white money, will have control of the monopoly on violence that we grant the government.


Are there any examples of this working in a country or society? Does Amsterdam allow harder drugs or just weed? What has been the impact there (besides increased tourism)? Would the assumed hefty taxes on drugs still create a big black market for the cartels as Diehard indicated?

I would prefer that we eased up on needing a prescription from a doctor to get a antibiotic and other basic medicine before we legalized hard drugs.

Nowhere in the 1st world. I'd imagine that certain regions of East Africa are in anarchy. I disagree completely about antibiotics and the like. We need to see physicians (or at least pharmacists) about non habit-forming drugs, so that people don't inadvertently hurt themselves by mixing Rxs. Blood tests need to be done with lots of medicines to check liver and kidney function. Also, there's a public health interest in making sure that antibiotics are used correctly so that we don't hasten the development of resistant strains of bacteria.


Oh yeah. Prohibition.

It's a bingo!


The problem with legalization of everything is that it only addresses one side of the drug problem. Diehard hit on it, but harder drugs have a personal and social toll that has nothing to do with the criminal organizations that control it. I had a cousin die from an heroin OD who had been in and out of every treatment center in the west as well as prison. A once bright and great kid couldn't hold down a job, was stealing money from his family, couldn't live with anyone because of what the drug did to him and more. The lives of his family were hell and continue to be so.

The only thing that may have been improved in his life from general legalization was reduced legal fees, but also like Diehard mentioned, his inability to be a member of society and not a slave to this drug meant he couldn't hold a job, could get any money and so he turned to crime to get what he needed (which actually was typically what he was in jail for, not drug-related charges).

And he is maybe a good example of this, because his family could afford to put him in every treatment system available. He desperately wanted to be free of this, and even with the best treatment couldn't kick it. In fact near the end of his life he desperately didn't want to go back to prison because he said access to drugs was easier in there than it was out on the streets.

But going back to LA, there are a lot of people out there who want treatment, who unlike my cousin could kick their problems with the right treatment who aren't getting it, but should. The simple answer is there is no one grand sweeping thing that can be done to fix the problem.

Even with it being illegal, he still had access enough to hurt himself and die from it. Keeping it illegal serves little purpose.


I think Heroin and other opiates should regulated but still legal. As far as I'm concerned, beer, pot, LSD, ecstasy and tobacco should be dispensed in vending machines. Opiates at the pharmacy.

The gangs will have to find something else to fight over.

I think kids shouldn't have access to drugs. While the drinking age should be abolished, I don't we should let kids hurt themselves until they're old enough to understand long-term consequences.

I also think that employers should be allowed to test for drugs and withhold employment from those who use.

Sullyute
03-11-2014, 11:51 AM
Nowhere in the 1st world. I'd imagine that certain regions of East Africa are in anarchy. I disagree completely about antibiotics and the like. We need to see physicians (or at least pharmacists) about non habit-forming drugs, so that people don't inadvertently hurt themselves by mixing Rxs. Blood tests need to be done with lots of medicines to check liver and kidney function. Also, there's a public health interest in making sure that antibiotics are used correctly so that we don't hasten the development of resistant strains of bacteria.

I guess I should get more clarification on what you meant in your original statement on legalizing illicit drugs? Do you mean that a person could buy drugs at a gas station, smoke shop, etc., or do you mean that you could go to a pharmacy with a prescription from a doctor to get crack or cocaine? If it is not the latter, then I think it is funny that under your scenario, I can buy crack which will destroy my body and brain, but I cannot get a 800mg asprin as it might hurt my liver?! If we are going to allow people to make adult choices on how they affect their body with hard drugs why can't I make the same decision with medicine?

jrj84105
03-11-2014, 02:55 PM
I would prefer that we eased up on needing a prescription from a doctor to get a antibiotic and other basic medicine before we legalized hard drugs.
I'd have to disagree with this. Antibiotic resistance poses a much greater threat to mankind than drug use. Our track record of man vs drug is way better than man vs bug. Also prescription drugs are way more dangerous than most illicit drugs. The prescription opiods are the biggest killers in our country and it's not even close. The therapeutic window on most prescription drugs is also much narrower than the "therapeutic" window on most illicit drugs. Given the wide fluctuation in purity of illicit drugs, if any of these things had as narrow of a therapeutic window as our pharmaceuticals, the illicit drug using population would self-exterminate very rapidly. Also the adverse effects of most ilicit drugs are pretty easy to monitor by the user (elevated heart rate/somnolence) compared to the adverse effects of a lot of Rx Drugs (hepatotoxicity, nephrotoxicity, etc).

mUUser
03-19-2014, 11:46 AM
...
I would prefer that we eased up on needing a prescription from a doctor to get a antibiotic and other basic medicine before we legalized hard drugs.


Oh man, am I with you on this one....would love to have a few z-paks & amoxycillin on hand at all times.

chrisrenrut
06-11-2014, 08:17 AM
I think we should legalize all of it and get the police out of the drug business. Let us deal with addiction and prevention through education & treatment rather than a punitive approach which is a complete, abject, colossal and utter failure worldwide. The cost in violence and a corrupt and inefficient global police force is too high. Take away cops having to worry about interdiction and they could do more real police work. It would legitimize whole industries and neighborhoods, allow dealers access to the court system, and resurrender the monopoly on violence back to the Leviathan for the resolution of disputes. It would be a rough first ten years, but after, I truly believe things would improve.

People call me naive, pie in the sky, lofty idealist, and the like. No matter. I think it would work. Prohibition and basic economics show us that people will get what they want no matter how hard we try to stop them. And the human cost of a punitive approach is massive and dire.

Alright, let me have it.

My step son is currently binging on heroin. Since he started using, he has lost his house, truck, and car, and sold most of his possessions with any value on KSL.com. He has recently been kicked out of his house by his wife, and only sees his 2 year old son only sporadically. He has stolen thousands of dollars from his mother-in-law, and thousands of dollars from his biological father. He has taken about a dozen items from us worth a couple of thousand dollars and pawned them. My wife had to stay home from our planned trip last week because she didn't feel safe leaving our house unoccupied with him around.

He blames everyone else for his problems, never himself. He continuously lies to everyone, although everyone knows you can't beleive a word he says. He looks for ways to gain sympathy in hopes of getting money from family and friends. His emotional manipulations are extremely hard on his wife. His 2 year old son can't understand why daddy isn't around much.

It's sad to say, but our greatest hope at this point is that he gets caught and goes to jail. That is probably the safest place for him at this point. He has been through this before, and jail forced him to clean up and examine his life. We have offered, but he won't voluntarily go to a treatment center, and it wouldn't do any good if he didn't want to get clean.

I know it's anecdotal, but I can't see how legalizing hard drugs would help him or our family. From my limited perspective, easier access would only have accelerated his downward spiral.

Sullyute
06-11-2014, 08:39 AM
Chris,

I am sorry to hear about your step-son. We have a neighbor that has gone through similar issues (i.e. not being able to go on vacation for fear that son will rob the house). It is extremely taxing on all involved.

Viking
06-15-2014, 08:54 PM
Chris,

I am sorry to hear about your step-son. We have a neighbor that has gone through similar issues (i.e. not being able to go on vacation for fear that son will rob the house). It is extremely taxing on all involved.

. Why don't you have him busted? Have your wife hire an attorney who can then find a great PI. Have the PI find enough evidence to refer to police and bust him.

chrisrenrut
06-22-2017, 10:59 AM
This is a very sobering article. Ignore the Mormon references, they don't really have much to do with the story. This could have been any kid from any good family.

This fentanyl stuff is very scary.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/900000059/from-mormon-kid-to-alleged-drug-kingpin-inside-the-rise-and-fall-of-aaron-shamo.html

U-Ute
06-22-2017, 12:05 PM
This is a very sobering article. Ignore the Mormon references, they don't really have much to do with the story. This could have been any kid from any good family.

This fentanyl stuff is very scary.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/900000059/from-mormon-kid-to-alleged-drug-kingpin-inside-the-rise-and-fall-of-aaron-shamo.html

I read this story recently where a cop ended up in the hospital after bushing dust off his uniform after a drug bust that turned out to be fentanyl. That stuff is seriously potent.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/16/health/police-fentanyl-overdose-trnd/index.html

Diehard Ute
06-22-2017, 12:27 PM
I read this story recently where a cop ended up in the hospital after bushing dust off his uniform after a drug bust that turned out to be fentanyl. That stuff is seriously potent.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/16/health/police-fentanyl-overdose-trnd/index.html

Yeah, it's nasty. And Narcan doesn't counter it real well.


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Ma'ake
07-01-2017, 01:34 PM
This fentanyl stuff is very scary.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/900000059/from-mormon-kid-to-alleged-drug-kingpin-inside-the-rise-and-fall-of-aaron-shamo.html

Truly horrifying aspects of the Shamo case:

- Purchasing 1 Kg of Fentanyl from China / Mexico for $4000, turning it into between $6 - $22 million of "retail" product.

- Getting their hands on a pill press, to blend the Fetanyl into legit-looking Xanax and Oxycodon pills, the kind kids steal from family members to party on.

- 4 or 5 of them working at E-Bay's call center in Sandy/Draper, shipping product to all 50 states & outside the country.

This is Breaking Bad... in Cottonwood Heights.

The risk/reward on $4k >> $22 Million will attract innumerable other suppliers, smart guys who think they'll be able to avoid whatever mistakes Shamo made.

UTEopia
07-01-2017, 08:00 PM
Like most difficult problems, there is not an easy solution or even one solution. My wife and I serve in an LDS Branch affiliated with the Atherton treatment center for women. The women are either on their way out of prison or there by order of the court to avoid prison. The women come from all walks of life. A few from homelessness to LDS moms married in the Temple and returned missionaries. Some had very bad lives as children and some had every advantage. The monkey of addiction is tough to break regardless of good intentions and a lot of support. Those with no or limited support have almost no chance of breaking through the cycle. These women have limited education, no good job opportunities and face an uphill battle every step of the way.

Ma'ake
07-01-2017, 11:05 PM
UTEopia, first of all, thanks for helping these women, and thanks for describing how addiction is indiscriminant in its devastation.

I'm really, really happy to see the public campaign and high visibility addressing the Opiod problem. These people would struggle in vain, with no hope for progress in finding real treatment, without the PR campaign underway.

At the cancer institute we had a very talented pharmacologist come to us, she was switching research areas into cancer, from substance abuse pharmacological research, because "there's no money in substance abuse, no funding, nothing really going on, like there is in cancer".

That needs to change. Cancer needs and aggressively uses the resources it gets, and we're making very encouraging progress. There is demonstrable reason for hope.

The way healthcare research works, there's a public-private pipeline, where federal research funding supports the first part of the research pipeline, where corporations don't see a quick ROI and shy away from the research being done... until enough breakthroughs or insights help illuminate the path to profitability, and then they apply their R&D resources and take the effort from that point.

Whether it's trying to sequence the first human genome - which took a couple of decades and $1 Billion (because it was completely unknown territory), or even coming up with this idea to connect computer together - ie, the Internet - the federal government, funding very smart scientists, have found paths that aren't apparent to anyone else, let alone finding private investment who can see how the discoveries could lead to profitable products in a time period investors would tolerate.

The Opiod crisis really, really needs the federal science research boost to get research progress moving, which will lead to specific treatments, and more of them. I can see the potential for applying some of the technologies, and approaches taken in cancer research or heart research, or MS, or AIDS, or.... you get the point.

Researchers aren't independently wealthy, they can't afford to work for free. Many have PhDs and work for less than $50,000. (They're telling their own children not to go into science as a career.)

Progress in understanding addiction, and working toward better treatments, is absolutely possible, and achievable. Right now there's no leadership from DC to get the ball rolling. JFK challenged the nation to get a man on the moon, in a decade. Who is leading the call - and fiscal muscle - to attack addition?

Until that happens, we'll keep doing the best we can do.... which I'm sure you can attest is very discouraging.

Brian
07-02-2017, 06:07 PM
That story was an interesting read. My folks live in that area, and I asked them about it. Turns out it is in their ward. A friend of theirs, and neighbor to the Shamo kid, would periodically get packages for him that the FedEx guy would leave. Being a neighborly type, he would take them over to him after he got home.
My mom said they tease him now that he might serve time for running part of his pipeline.

I told my dad that if only he had better home teachers this would likely never have happened.

UTEopia
07-03-2017, 08:01 AM
If you are interested in a fascinating read about the Opiod Epidemic, read Dreamland.

LA Ute
07-03-2017, 09:54 AM
My brother was the branch president in the Women's Unit of the S.L. County Jail for 10 years. Almost all of the inmates were drug offenders. The experience changed him a great deal personally (overwhelmingly for the better, he believes) and caused him to change his views on how drug abuse should be treated. On his way to his MSW, my son (who lurks here) works with recent parolees (he calls it a "crimogenic population") and has similar views. They both have influenced my views greatly. (I didn't really have much of a view beforehand because I had no experience with that population.) It seems to me that most people who work with individual addicts who want to change feel the same way. (I realize that folks like Diehard, who deal with the offenders, have a different perspective.)

UTEopia
07-03-2017, 10:44 AM
My brother was the branch president in the Women's Unit of the S.L. County Jail for 10 years. Almost all of the inmates were drug offenders. The experience changed him a great deal personally (overwhelmingly for the better, he believes) and caused him to change his views on how drug abuse should be treated. On his way to his MSW, my son (who lurks here) works with recent parolees (he calls it a "crimogenic population") and has similar views. They both have influenced my views greatly. (I didn't really have much of a view beforehand because I had no experience with that population.) It seems to me that most people who work with individual addicts who want to change feel the same way. (I realize that folks like Diehard, who deal with the offenders, have a different perspective.)



I think that is true with most social issues. I know a number of people who are really on the round up the illegal immigrants and send them home bandwagon. I asked a couple of them if they felt that way about the families in our LDS Stake whose visitor visas expired years ago and who have been here illegally for 20+ years. There immediate response was, well that is different. Well, no it isn't. A significant percentage of the illegal immigrant population came here legally on some type of temporary visitor, work or education visa and simply stayed. Currently, the only option for those people is to leave and get in line. One of my son's close friends falls into that group. His family came from South America to the States when he was 4 or 5 on a visitors visa. They stayed and he grew up as an American. He really wanted to go to Brazil on his LDS mission, but was told by Church authorities that if he did, it was unlikely he would be allowed back in the States. He went to Idaho and took the bus to get there.

Devildog
07-04-2017, 02:31 PM
I think that is true with most social issues. I know a number of people who are really on the round up the illegal immigrants and send them home bandwagon. I asked a couple of them if they felt that way about the families in our LDS Stake whose visitor visas expired years ago and who have been here illegally for 20+ years. There immediate response was, well that is different. Well, no it isn't. A significant percentage of the illegal immigrant population came here legally on some type of temporary visitor, work or education visa and simply stayed. Currently, the only option for those people is to leave and get in line. One of my son's close friends falls into that group. His family came from South America to the States when he was 4 or 5 on a visitors visa. They stayed and he grew up as an American. He really wanted to go to Brazil on his LDS mission, but was told by Church authorities that if he did, it was unlikely he would be allowed back in the States. He went to Idaho and took the bus to get there.

Why does being LDS change the equation? Yes. I think they should get here legally regardless of their religion. Why have laws at all if we can disregard them at will.

Devildog
07-04-2017, 03:23 PM
Seriously UTEopia... which laws should we disregard because the violator is LDS? Just immigration law? How about violence against another person?

tooblue
07-04-2017, 05:13 PM
Why does being LDS change the equation? Yes. I think they should get here legally regardless of their religion. Why have laws at all if we can disregard them at will.

Service Members, Not Citizens: Meet The Veterans Who Have Been Deported:

http://www.npr.org/2016/01/13/462372040/service-members-not-citizens-meet-the-veterans-who-have-been-deported

A Mexican immigrant here illegally just became a citizen, thanks to his U.S. military service

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-immigrant-military-service-20160423-story.html

There are always exceptions, and yet not always.

chrisrenrut
07-04-2017, 06:47 PM
Seriously UTEopia... which laws should we disregard because the violator is LDS? Just immigration law? How about violence against another person?

You completely missed his point. Being LDS has nothing to do with it. The example works to make his point if it was a Catholic, episcopal, or even a PTA organization. It's easy to take hardline position on social issues until it hits close or or becomes personal. Then people tend to change position or start to rationalize.

Rocker Ute
07-05-2017, 07:51 AM
You completely missed his point. Being LDS has nothing to do with it. The example works to make his point if it was a Catholic, episcopal, or even a PTA organization. It's easy to take hardline position on social issues until it hits close or or becomes personal. Then people tend to change position or start to rationalize.

And when you are a little kid you aren't exactly choosing to cross the border illegally.

That's one of the problems is kids who were brought here illegally by their parents or even born here while their parents were here illegally, have no connection to their parents country and may not even speak the language but are also not US citizens. Sending a kid to their parents home country makes no sense.


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U-Ute
07-07-2017, 01:39 PM
Seriously UTEopia... which laws should we disregard because the violator is LDS? Just immigration law? How about violence against another person?

You need to read his whole post. This is exactly what he was saying.

People are quick to paint with a broad brush unless it comes to someone familiar to them, then they want the rules bent.

My dad has been all Trump all the time until the Senate produced the BHCA which cuts Medicaid that my sister (who was born with cerebral palsy) depends on. I've noticed his Trump posts on Facebook have slowed dramatically since then.